SBC into Tempest

[sledneck827]

Hey guys, I got a '68 Tempest that im rebuilding for a school project. I plan on doing my bodywork for the actual school project and install my new engine and tranny this summer. What i have now is a Pontiac 350 w/ a pwerglide. Ive aquired a chevy 400 sb and a TH2004r tranny. Can someone show me an example of the motor mounts ill need for this? Are they just Chevelle mounts? Also, what does it take to make the tranny fit? I have heard that it will drop rite in but I will have to shorten the driveshaft. Hows that sound to you guys?

Thanks alot for any help,
Matt

["Puddles the Pontiac"]

hey sledneck, most of the guys around this forum frown on chevys in their pontiacs. why not be different, see how much power you can get out of that 350. the 2004r should have a dual bolt pattern and will bolt right up to the pontiac engine. i think you will be pleasantly surprised at the power you can get out of that 350. there is no big and small block pontiac so everything you can put on a 455 you can also put on a 350.

[sledneck827]

Thanks puddles, i kind of expeced that. I figured since it was just a tempest it wouldnt hurt anything. I got the sbc motor for next to nothting and I wanted to use that in the car while i built the 350. :)

[Jeff Walker]

For mount all you will need is the frame and motor mounts from any 68-72 Chevelle as the Lemans and Chevelle share the same chassis. As for the transmission mount all you may have to do is relocate the crossmember, probably move it back some. BUT if you are going to use that 200R4 make SURE your TV cable is hooked up and properly adjusted which includes making sure the geometry is correct. If you don't the trany will never last.

HTH

[Mr. P-Body]

And FWIW, that's a Super Turbine 300, not a 'glide, that came behind your 350 Pontiac.

Redoing all the mounts, exhaust and electrical for the Chevy will have to again be undone to reinstall the Pontiac. Save all the parts.

Under no conditions, should you be doing this based on the Chevy-oriented propeganda that a Pontiac won't run (absloutely untrue, and there are dozens of guys lining up right now, to remove the doors from any Chevy-powered Poncho with high velocity air flow...). Seems like a lot of work for a temporary home...

Jim

[kookykrispy]

Please Please Please... do not put a Chevy in there....

Sell the chevy to a chevy guy and use the money to score yourself a running 400 pontiac! 400's are plentiful and easy enough to find... just keep your eyes open.. use your poncho 350 heads to bump up the compression!

[andrewb70]

Just use Chevelle frame stands and your good to go.

Andrew

[sledneck827]

If I had the time and money i would absolutly use a pontiac motor. This will be my first project car and im just testing the waters. BTW, whats the difference between a powerglide and the super turbine 300 two speeds?

[INJUNTOM]

sorry, can't stand to see a chevy go in....

[BVR421]

gutless sbc in a Pontiac? geesz Id rather walk
Dude, dont screw up a nice car, stick with the 350 Pontiac motor at least until all the other work is done and then decide on power. The Pontiac 350 is not the hottest deal around but in stock form still has more power than a stock sbc.
ST300 and Powerglide are the same GM design but the st300 is Pontiac only and as it was designed for way more torque and weight than a chevy it has super heavy duty parts including input and output shafts etc. The bellhousing bolt pattern is way different on a Pontiac so it wont bolt up to a chev.

If you want a small block sell the Tempest and buy a Chevelle.

[gearbanger]

What do you mean the money? Machine work costs exactly the same amount for Pontiacs as it does for chevy. You won't have to change motor mounts so you just saved some money. Sell the 400 chev and you now have the money to pay for your machine work. Gasket set, rings, rod and main bearings would be maybe $50 more than a set for a 400 small block. You are not saving by building a 400sbc. You could save more by building a 350 sbc, but you car would be so much cooler if it have tha Pontiac motor in it. The days of Chevy's being a big advantage over Pontiac motors are over. The parts are out there and it is much better to keep your car all Pontiac. (except for that OD tranny) :)

[Brandi Kay]

**** chevy

[LASJayhawk]

What Brandi said. :bounce:

I'd rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a brother with a SBC in a 68 Tempest.

[kookykrispy]

Too bad you're not in NM, if you were local, I might trade you for a 69 chevelle I have.
Then if you want a chevy with a SBC you can have one.
And I will keep the Tempest pontiac powered, as it should be. Also nobody will want to slap you for putting an SBC in a classic poncho.


As a side note, weren't most 200r4 trannies dual bolt pattern, and will fit chev or BOP?

[chipster]

If your tempest came with a pontiac V8, the starter and the fuel pump will be on the wrong side for a sbc, you will need to switch fuel line and battery tray, or run a real long cable.

[chipster]

Also, if the sbc is going to be just temporary, a TH350 is a bolt-in replacement for the ST300, you wouldn't have to shorten the driveshaft or move the crossmember.
I had a 350 chevy in my LeMans for seven years. Just don't let anybody look under the hood.

[TA454]

Dont listen to them Matt
Have fun nomatter of what the "PURIST" complain about.
Just remember any IDIOT can restore a car and keep it stock.
It takes a real man to cut one apart and improve on where it was lacking!!

[Pontiacdaver]

Have fun nomatter of what the "PURIST" complain about.
Just remember any IDIOT can restore a car and keep it stock.
It takes a real man to cut one apart and improve on where it was lacking!!
Of course, any imaginless, "me too" geek can put a Chevy motor in a Pontiac, but this is a Pontiac forum, so don't expect us to think that is cool. What's the matter, couldn't deal with the crappy styling of the Camaro, so ya had to buck up a T/A? Besides, who said we were all "PURISTS"? There are many owners here with modified cars that are Pontiac powered and could eat your Pontolet (or is that Port-O-Let?) for breakfast.

Matt, I appreciate your frankness, and am not bashing you. You do what your current budget will allow, just don't get the attitude TA454 has about it.

[TA454]

Of course, any imaginless, "me too" geek can put a Chevy motor in a Pontiac, but this is a Pontiac forum, so don't expect us to think that is cool. What's the matter, couldn't deal with the crappy styling of the Camaro, so ya had to buck up a T/A? Besides, who said we were all "PURISTS"? There are many owners here with modified cars that are Pontiac powered and could eat your Pontolet (or is that Port-O-Let?) for breakfast.

Matt, I appreciate your frankness, and am not bashing you. You do what your current budget will allow, just don't get the attitude TA454 has about it.


Thats a good one my attitude.
where do you think my attitude is derived from All the high and mighty "purists" that want to impart their vision on others. and anything to the contrary is simply substandard.
instead of balancing up there on your high horse with the rest of the high and mighty narrow minded "purists"
Just be glad that it is one more car that somebody took the time to keep alive instead of just tossing it in the crusher.

As far as the performance of my car trust me there is several cars on here that i have seen in my rearview mirror. And quite a few that wish they could run with me.
Before you make a blanket statement as to the performance of any individuals car you better research as to what and IF their car can do/has done at the track.

as i can see by your profile you obvously would not know a 10 second car if it was right in front of you.

Have fun with your car And let others have fun with theirs.
younger guys like matt come to boards like these to get the guidance and knowhow to work on these older cars. No wonder the younger rodders are going to the fart can/big stupid wing import side. when you got a bunch of old plicks nit picking everything that they want to do.Just because it is not the way it was done in the good old days.The good old days are over ther is more than your way of doing things.
Instead of bashing the guy for working within his means. try doing what the forum is for and answer the question that was asked.

[Pontiacdaver]

Thats a good one my attitude.
where do you think my attitude is derived from All the high and mighty "purists" that want to impart their vision on others. and anything to the contrary is simply substandard.
instead of balancing up there on your high horse with the rest of the high and mighty narrow minded "purists"
Just be glad that it is one more car that somebody took the time to keep alive instead of just tossing it in the crusher.

As far as the performance of my car trust me there is several cars on here that i have seen in my rearview mirror. And quite a few that wish they could run with me.
Before you make a blanket statement as to the performance of any individuals car you better research as to what and IF their car can do/has done at the track.

as i can see by your profile you obvously would not know a 10 second car if it was right in front of you.

Have fun with your car And let others have fun with theirs.
younger guys like matt come to boards like these to get the guidance and knowhow to work on these older cars. No wonder the younger rodders are going to the fart can/big stupid wing import side. when you got a bunch of old plicks nit picking everything that they want to do.Just because it is not the way it was done in the good old days.The good old days are over ther is more than your way of doing things.
Instead of bashing the guy for working within his means. try doing what the forum is for and answer the question that was asked.

1. You cast the first stone. You didn't offer any useful advice, only snide comments directed towards anyone who, on a PONTIAC forum, didn't agree with putting a non-Pontiac motor in a Pontiac.
2. If you'd actually read the post, I was bashing you, not Matt, his attitude wasn't smarta$$ like yours is.
3. Your defintion of 'purist' and mine are evidently quite different.
4. Again, this is a PONTIAC forum, which tends to have people who are into PONTIACS like myself, so if you don't like it, go to one of the 1000s of Chevy forums.
5. As for my profile, at least I provide some honest information about myself, instead of hiding behind the typical "non-information" your profile has.
If we're going to base knowledge on what info is in a person's profile, I'd say you don't know squat about anything. Truth is, I'd put my knowledge and experience up against yours anyday.
6. Last, any....what was your word?.....oh yes, IDIOT, can butcher a car, a "real man" works with, and improves on, what is already there. Doing what you did to the car is worse than sending it to the crusher to us true Pontiac fans.

[TA454]

1. You cast the first stone. You didn't offer any useful advice, only snide comments directed towards anyone who, on a PONTIAC forum, didn't agree with putting a non-Pontiac motor in a Pontiac.
2. If you'd actually read the post, I was bashing you, not Matt, his attitude wasn't smarta$$ like yours is.
3. Your defintion of 'purist' and mine are evidently quite different.
4. Again, this is a PONTIAC forum, which tends to have people who are into PONTIACS like myself, so if you don't like it, go to one of the 1000s of Chevy forums.
5. As for my profile, at least I provide some honest information about myself, instead of hiding behind the typical "non-information" your profile has.
If we're going to base knowledge on what info is in a person's profile, I'd say you don't know squat about anything. Truth is, I'd put my knowledge and experience up against yours anyday.
6. Last, any....what was your word?.....oh yes, IDIOT, can butcher a car, a "real man" works with, and improves on, what is already there. Doing what you did to the car is worse than sending it to the crusher to us true Pontiac fans.


My profile was filled out with my car info i did not realize that when the redid the forums that the info was erased. sorry my bad.
my car runs 10.8 in non tubbed street trim (et streets, Mufflers) I kinda think that is quite a bit of squat to know.

I still fail to see how an engine that is BOLTED in destroys any thing.
I guess the air must be thin upon that high horse.
As far as you preaching that this is a pontiac forum.
OK i will give you that.
BUT what exactly did you expect to find in a section titled "NON PONTIAC MOTORS IN PONTIACS" does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this section would have pontiac enthusiast like ME in here.
Like i said before answer the question asked .
If you would read ALL the posts atleast 50% contain absolutely NO useful information on the conversion.
except fot chipster,Mr pbody, jeff walker and to an extent puddles (who was polite in his opinion which i can respect when given that way) The rest of the replys are nothing but soap box, chest thumping bable.
IT does get awfully old in a NON PONTIAC MOTORS section.
All i got to say is Whatever,
have a nice day

[Pontiacdaver]

My profile was filled out with my car info i did not realize that when the redid the forums that the info was erased. sorry my bad.
my car runs 10.8 in non tubbed street trim (et streets, Mufflers) I kinda think that is quite a bit of squat to know.

I still fail to see how an engine that is BOLTED in destroys any thing.
I guess the air must be thin upon that high horse.
As far as you preaching that this is a pontiac forum.
OK i will give you that.
BUT what exactly did you expect to find in a section titled "NON PONTIAC MOTORS IN PONTIACS" does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this section would have pontiac enthusiast like ME in here.
Like i said before answer the question asked .
If you would read ALL the posts atleast 50% contain absolutely NO useful information on the conversion.
except fot chipster,Mr pbody, jeff walker and to an extent puddles (who was polite in his opinion which i can respect when given that way) The rest of the replys are nothing but soap box, chest thumping bable.
IT does get awfully old in a NON PONTIAC MOTORS section.
All i got to say is Whatever,
have a nice day

Since you insulted me based on what you read in my profile, I just returned the favor by using yours as a guide.

Of course, you haven't provided one useful comment yourself, so that makes you no different.

I'll give you the fact that is it the "Non-Pontiac motors in Pontiacs" section, but you didn't answer the question either, you just stirred the pot with your comments. I usually only reply if I can provide some useful input, but the way you worded your reply ticked me off. I saw at least 50% of the posts were anti-SBC comments as well, but again, this is where Pontiac lovers hangout. As we both know, if you ask, or even if you don't, you will get various opinions including yours and mine. In closing, I will say, from looking at your car on your website, it is a nice looking T/A and while I disagree on the route you could have taken with the car, it is your car and your are free to do anything you want to with it. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree. Dave

[kookykrispy]

if you're gonna put a chevy in a pontiac, at least put a big block... small blocks are boring and a crappy replacement for real pontiac power... unless you're installing an LS1 or something like that

[JohnH]

Put the 400 Chevy in. Paint it Pontiac green. When they ask, say it's a 400. 90 percent of people won't know the difference.
If Chevy in a Pontiac is so wrong, why did GM do it?

[Pontiacdaver]

Put the 400 Chevy in. Paint it Pontiac green. When they ask, say it's a 400. 90 percent of people won't know the difference.
If Chevy in a Pontiac is so wrong, why did GM do it?

You're right about the 90%, but the 10% of us who do know what we are looking at wouldn't like it, in that case, at least leave it Orange.
It's Blue, either solid or metallic, not green.
GM did it for cost cutting reasons.

[techteacher5561]

Matt, as a technology teacher and Pontiac enthusiast I encourage you whole heartedly for picking a great project. It'll be unique and really cool when you get it done. IMO only I'd keep the 350 and sell the chevy for many of the afore mentioned reasons. If you're in a tech school or Trades program - which I'm assuming you are, before you get into too much check with the dept head who hands auto tech and see if their schedule would allow them ( or hopefully you) to do the 350 while the body work is in progress. I'm sure you'd rather wrench on your engine yourself so talk to him and see if thats a possibility.

Good luck and check in often as we love to see pictures of restorations in progress and you're at a get place to learn now what will serve you well throughout your life.

Take car !!

[Smoking Tires]

CHEVY IN A PONTIAC, THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LuxLeMans]

Matt,

1. It's your car and you can do what you like with it.

2. This IS a Non-Pontiac Motors in Pontiac subforum, so yours is a fair question, I hope you have found suitable answers, despite the pi$$ing match going on in this thread.

3. Like others here, I personally think having a Chevy motor in your Tempest would be lame and suck.

4. Our opinions don't matter, it's your car and you can do what you like with it.

Enjoy your Tempest!

[gearbanger]

CHEVY IN A PONTIAC, THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least half of that is right!

[WDCreech]

CHEVY IN A PONTIAC, THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw the difference between a bone stock 400 in a 68 bird and a slightly modified Chevy street 400, in the same car. When the guy bought the car, with the Pontiac engine, he drove it like a chebby and evetually kicked the rods at the track, but it ran a mid 12. Then he put in his "HOT" Chevy engine in it and it ran low 14s. He only brought the car to the track twice with the Chevy in it and he never came back.

[gearbanger]

I think that is why alot of guys think Pontiac motors are not reliable, because they try to drive them like a chevy motor. They are designed to make power at low revs, and they do make alot more power at low revs. You just have to get it through your head to use it and set the car up to use it. There is a guy that comes to our cruise ins with a 66 GTO that is tubbed and has a 454 in it. It almost dies when he launches it because he has som much traction, he drives it alot on the street and it is a really nice car. Only problem is, my 400, 67 GTO would eat it in the 1/8 or in the 1/4, and mine was just as streetable and running on 255/60 BFGs. Sorry GM. Shoulda stuck with the blue metallic.

[goquick]

The cost of machine work is the same regardless of engine brand. On your 350 Pontiac, it shares the same rings with a 283 sbc, so there is no cost difference there. Email me and I'll beat anybodies price on the bearings, as they cost me the same as chev bearings. Now the only difference is pistons as valvetrain parts cost the same from the cam companies, it's just a pain getting it for the same money from shops and warehouses. Bucks down? An intake that is used but not full of stripped holes is just as good performance wise as a new one of the same make, ( performer rpm used vs. performer rpm new). Carb is same cost. Ignition is nearly same cost, if you THINK you must buy an aftermarket distributor. Wires and plugs are same cost, as is ignition boxes. And how much was the parts to convert it to a chev engine? There isn't much difference in total cost and we can make a Pontiac engine spank torqueless chevies all day long and last longer doing it. The Pontiac 350 takes a little different approach, but it can do it.

[goquick]

WD, I have seen that happen too many times, but until it happens to the one thinking he has to go the chevy engine, they won't listen. Maybe that is why I enjoy my Vega and S10 with the Pontiac engines so much. Hey TA454, can you keep up? Not running as slow as 10's you won't. ( Just afriendly little couldn't resist stirring the pot right back at ya.) :fencing: :Peace: I am curious TA454, if a guy had a Pontiac engine avalible for you that would allow your TA to run into the nines in the otherwise same trim you run 10.8's with the 454, would you switch it back to a Pontiac powered ride? You do have a nice car by the way.

[7T2]

go quick,
already been there done that with ta454. he tried to state the "lower price quotient". i shot that down, since im an eagle dealer(see 455v 454 thread)- he responded with anger and frustration, his credibility in question.
can you please give us something else to yuck, yuck?
show me state cheers
jim

[goquick]

7T2, Are you going to be at K.C.I.R. next weekend for the Nos. meet? My Vega should be there, easy to spot with flamed paint and of course a Pontiac engine for power. Since my chassis guy never got to some rule compliant updates, I might have to either load it on the trailer early ( if it's a really good feeling pass, I'm not lifting!) or slow it down. I'll be there with my neighbor and his red primed 60 Falcon., so our pit area should be easy to spot.

[7T2]

go quick,
sorry- dont get up that way much. since im in springfield, i either run at rogersville or Mokan. next year i will be expanding my perimeter in lieu of new products. very exciting stuff that i can pm you about if youre interested.
jim

[Pontiacdaver]

You're right about ta454, I think he just comes here to stirr the pot. He started the pi$$ing match by insulting me, but when he ran out of ammo, and I PM'd him to clear the air, he was too much of a punk to even respond. Oh well, it takes all kinds. Daver

[pittbull racing]

damm you pontiac guys are going to chop my head off then.,i got a nice 74 gto and i did put a sbc in it.,.i LOVE my pontiac gto but i did not like the 400 pon motor in it. so it had 2 go,now heres the kick in the nuts part.my motor has a duel quad intake on it.so now i cant find a old hood 2 cut up.or do i cut the good one i have(shaker hood) wich i dont want to do.(but i will if i have to:doh: ).,so feel free to bash me iam a man and can take it.,lol.,lol.,





ps iam ,looking 4 a hood 4 a 74 gto or ventura.,.,.,.,thanks

[Jgtoz28]

I think it would be easier to sell the gto clip and put a nova front clip on with a fiberglass hood. What you got in there? is that one of those "summit" tunnel ram kits w/450 holleys? You got a 305 or 283 w/double humps and a bracket master cam? That is a good combo and may get you in the 14's like a guy I know with a chevelle.

[goquick]

Pittbull; Yep, put a built tunnel rammed slow block chevy in a car and brag how it runs compared to a stock Pontiac engine. What does it run at the track? A sbc won't compete with a simularly built Pontiac engine. Like it or not, that's how it is. BTW, I came back to Pontiac power after going too damn slow with built chevies, both slow block and big slow blocks. Ever have a 8-71 blown 496 inch bbc in your ride? I did in a pro street monza. When it flew apart, I still had a 455 Pontiac laying around so in it went. Compared to the previous 2 chevy engines without blowers, the Pontiac would kick their butts all day long. You think a chevy engine was the way to go, but tell us what is in it. Then do an equally built Pontiac. The chevy will be slower.

[pittbull racing]

wow all that :clap2: 2 u.,.its a built 357 with 521 hp 2 the rear wheels.if u think u can beat it come try this lam ass chevy.,.and if my gto cant beat u then try my vega(single diget car) :cool: .,.i was just telling you guys about my ride and u come on here and bash me.thats just not right man.,but whatever

[Ken K]

Pontiac only engines was somebody elses era, it's not mine. If I had a LS7 engine, I would not think twice about dropping it into a old Pontiac body.

[goquick]

Pittbull; Your vega vs. my PONTIAC 400 POWERED vega. Single digit car eh? Cool. Where do you live? By the way, I have a 350 +.060" Pontiac that will match you and it is a 92 octane pump gas only engine with no power adders. 1 holley carb that flows 900 cfm. 578 hp and 548 tq at the peaks. HP avg. across a 4000 rpm range of 468hp from 2500 rpm to 6500 rpm. I wasn't bashing you, just relaying my experience. I know what it takes to get the power you say you have. Congrads. But I would still like to know what was done to the Pontiac engine. My 400 Pontiac made 653 hp @ 6400 rpm on 92 octane pump gas. 1 carb. What will your 357 make with 1 carb and 92 octane?

[goquick]

Ken K, chevy engines in anything other than a chevy era is long over. Put a Pontiac in a 63 Vette and increase the value.

[adam woodmancy]

What Brandi said. :bounce:

I'd rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a brother with a SBC in a 68 Tempest.

haha

[adam woodmancy]

Put the 400 Chevy in. Paint it Pontiac green. When they ask, say it's a 400. 90 percent of people won't know the difference.
If Chevy in a Pontiac is so wrong, why did GM do it?


chevy in a pontiac is about as "right" as a gto built in austrailia. GM did it on both accounts, but then again, that doesnt make it right

[INJUNTOM]

ps iam ,looking 4 a hood 4 a 74 gto or ventura.,.,.,.,thanks
I have a nice '73 hood.

[RamAirZ]

WOW is all I have to say. I know this is beating a dead horse but isn't this a non-pontiac motors section? I'm a younger guy (23) but have been around muscle cars since I can remember. I am one to like to keep a nice original car in that shape (with maybe modern upgrades that won't demean the car) but I am also an avid customizer (have built a few custom frames, interior swaps from late-models to older, as well as drivetrain swaps). I understand some of the "purists" as you've been called here, being irritated with the fact of a typical chevy motor in a Pontiac, but what happened to the days of run what you brung? I've heard the stories from my dad and the guys at the shows and cruises I go to that swapped motors from anything they could find to get their cars to run with someone else. You say an equally built pontiac will outrun a built chevy, I say your wrong. I am not siding with chevy, but stating you put the right amount of time and work into ANY engine and it'll run. There will always be something faster, you say the Pontiac engine is faster, but why don't we see more of them in the drags? I personally love the Pontiac engine but saying one is better than the other is non-sense. It all depends who built it and what's done. Yes the Pontiac makes awesome low end power, but so does a well built 383 chevy motor. (you see where I am going). I have seen ford motors outpower chevy and pontiac, and vice-versa. I'm all about keeping a nice clean original car that way(depending on if it's desirable that way). Now if it's a 63' Fury or something with a straight 6, no a/c, and ripped seats, might as well dropp a hemi in it with a 727 and go to town. My 69' will be getting a very up-to-date engine/suspension/tire-wheel setup. Some of you guys will probably yell at me for it but again it's my car. I give props to someone who wants to modify a car in a good way (you all have to admit SBC are MUCH easier to come by and cheaper than a pontiac, so a young fantasy racer with very thin pockets can easily get started in the game with a SBC). To sum up my soap box ranting, good luck with your car, I hope you enjoy it. me, I would have either kept the 350 or gotten a 400/455 to drop in it's place and done it that way, but hey I've swapped SBC's into fords/chryslers/etc with friends of mine. Guy I know has a 9 second stang with a N/A 355 in it. Main idea about this hobby is to enjoy it. You may enjoy your cars plain and original with no frills, others may enjoy theres a little on the wild/crazy side and dare to be different, when it all comes down to it we are all in the hobby for the same reason, it's something we love doing.

[goquick]

RAMAIRZ, What is the reason are you getting rid of the Pontiac engine? What is wrong with it? Had to ask. btw, I've put a Ford 460 into a real RS/SS 69 camaro just to tick off a diehard chevy guy who put a chevy engine in a nice 2+@ Mustang. He liked to have died when we blew his doors off with a ford powered chevy. I think he refianced his house just to buy the car from us so he could take out the ford engine. Should have went and done another early camero with anything else we could get other than a chevy engine just because!:D

[RamAirZ]

Nothing is wrong with the engine. It's a 92,000 original mile 250ci OHC straight 6. I was going to build a Turbo OHC 6 for it, but decided to go against it since I have a LSx based Gen III engine on a stand that I would rather use. Will be much cheaper and make more power. I usually like to go the odd-ball route but the cost to get the straight-6 where I wanted it did not sit right with me lol. I could build this motor for half the price, make twice the power, it'll last, parts available just about everywhere, oh and good MPG :) Was looking into building a 455 Twin Turbo setup until my fiance got me this motor. Will build another "true" pontiac after this one is finished :)

[goquick]

RAMAIRZ, What are you going to do with the ohc 6?

[RamAirZ]

I wanted to keep it for another project but don't have room for it with moving and all. I've put it up for sale and no one wanted it lol. I have the motor and liquid cooled ST300 tranny. Anyone want it? lol

[goquick]

RAMAIRZ, The ohc 6 isn't very common now a days, but it can be built. Like you said, finding what you need isn't easy. But going to a V8 Pontiac would be the best option in my opinion. Even if you do have the LSx engine, they are not cheap to build. I still do not see how a sbc is so cheap when you get to the power level of the Pontiac, you've spent within 1 to 2 hundred bucks of money. Doesn't matter if it is a sbc or a bbc. The cheapest engine to actuly build and make power with is a Ford.
As for your OHC6, where are you?

[RamAirZ]

Ya I had plans laid out for the OHC-6. forged stroker kit from Primatech, ported 250ci head, stainless valves, custom grind cam, single 60-1 turbo, clifford aluminum intake with accel TB and setup for MPFI. I also had all the plans and pieces for a DIS-6 system to put on it. Would have been REALLY neat but if I get it all built, and it blows up down the road, what if Primatech isn't around? At least in this project I would like to keep it easily maintanable and good mpg/hp numbers and drivability. I've got the Gen III with forged rods, pistons, 241 heads sitting here. need to get the cam, intake. rails etc and setup a turbo on it :) I do agree making power with the Pontiac is easy, but making power with a SBC is easy too. All motors have their good and bad qualities and everyone has their preference. Dude A might love Ford and be able to make any ford motor scream but not a chevy, and Dude B might be able to make a wicked chevy motor but stink at ford lol. etc etc. Just my .02. I will have a Pontiac V8 Powered vehicle in the future though, so keep an eye out ;) Oh and in Pensacola Florida

[drailed]

WOW is all I have to say. I know this is beating a dead horse but isn't this a non-pontiac motors section? I'm a younger guy (23) but have been around muscle cars since I can remember. I am one to like to keep a nice original car in that shape (with maybe modern upgrades that won't demean the car) but I am also an avid customizer (have built a few custom frames, interior swaps from late-models to older, as well as drivetrain swaps). I understand some of the "purists" as you've been called here, being irritated with the fact of a typical chevy motor in a Pontiac, but what happened to the days of run what you brung? I've heard the stories from my dad and the guys at the shows and cruises I go to that swapped motors from anything they could find to get their cars to run with someone else. You say an equally built pontiac will outrun a built chevy, I say your wrong. I am not siding with chevy, but stating you put the right amount of time and work into ANY engine and it'll run. There will always be something faster, you say the Pontiac engine is faster, but why don't we see more of them in the drags? I personally love the Pontiac engine but saying one is better than the other is non-sense. It all depends who built it and what's done. Yes the Pontiac makes awesome low end power, but so does a well built 383 chevy motor. (you see where I am going). I have seen ford motors outpower chevy and pontiac, and vice-versa. I'm all about keeping a nice clean original car that way(depending on if it's desirable that way). Now if it's a 63' Fury or something with a straight 6, no a/c, and ripped seats, might as well dropp a hemi in it with a 727 and go to town. My 69' will be getting a very up-to-date engine/suspension/tire-wheel setup. Some of you guys will probably yell at me for it but again it's my car. I give props to someone who wants to modify a car in a good way (you all have to admit SBC are MUCH easier to come by and cheaper than a pontiac, so a young fantasy racer with very thin pockets can easily get started in the game with a SBC). To sum up my soap box ranting, good luck with your car, I hope you enjoy it. me, I would have either kept the 350 or gotten a 400/455 to drop in it's place and done it that way, but hey I've swapped SBC's into fords/chryslers/etc with friends of mine. Guy I know has a 9 second stang with a N/A 355 in it. Main idea about this hobby is to enjoy it. You may enjoy your cars plain and original with no frills, others may enjoy theres a little on the wild/crazy side and dare to be different, when it all comes down to it we are all in the hobby for the same reason, it's something we love doing.


Very well put RamAirZ, i think this is the best response yet to this thread.

[RamAirZ]

Thank ya kindly :)

[webfoot]

Man, I had no idea there was so much hostility towards the bow-ties... Guess I should hate myself for owning a GTO and a chevelle!

[WDCreech]

It used to be just a competition between the divisions, but since GM screwed everyone, except Chevrolet, it's more than just a hostility, it's an obsession.

[goquick]

webfoot; Man, I had no idea there was so much hostility towards the bow-ties

Yep. Why should Pontiac people continue to put up with being told "it's the thing to do, put a bowtie in it?" When a Pontiac powered car brings more money at resale time, plus will spank the chevy's power all day long, should be clear to put a Pontiac in a Pontiac. Of course you will always have people like pitbull racing that brags on a very built chevy engine compared to a stock Pontiac engine, but where did he go hide when my Pontiac powered Vega is more than able to spank his chevy powered vega?

[BigDaddyJC]

Matt, in getting back to your original question, Chevelle mounts on the frame and on the engine and the SBC will bolt right up.
I myself am also new to this forum, and also have a 70 model LeMans that I am putting my built 400 SBC in. My car came without any motor or transmission, so I do not feel prone to keeping the car Pontiac powered.
Sometimes we have to play with the hand we are dealt, and since its Your Car, You can do what ever you want with it.
I have ran SBC 400 engines in several cars, and they are in my own opinion, the best of the small block engines for low end Torque and cubic inches.
For those of us living on a hobby budget, then we can use whatever we have available.
My car is still a Pontiac, and it will still be powered by a GM engine, so I have no regrets in using my SBC.
To each his own.........:D
Jim C.

[Lemans64]

Nicely said Bigdaddy, I also have a Pontiac with Canadain Pontiac engine in it, (SBC), Mine never had the correct engine either and SBC was readily available compared to the Pontiac engine ( in my location). My car is not stock, but it's mine to do whatever I would like to do with, and I also thought that's what this section of the board is all a bout is it not, Non Pontiac Engine In Pontiac?? Just another 2 cent to play with.

:fencing:

[BigDaddyJC]

Thanks Lemans64, and yes, I am sure that this is the section on this forum where it says Non Pontiac Engines.
I cannot see why any Pontiac guy would bash this young man for wanting to bring back another old GM Muscle Car. I have two teenagers, one 15 and one 18 and have raised my 18 year old son to love and respect the true old Muscle Cars of the past. He actually gave me my 70 LeMans as this years Fathers Day present, and currently is driving his own 78 Chevy Z28 Camaro-my Graduation present to him...:D with a 383 stroker he build all by himself at the age of 17 !!!!
Sadly, the majority of our young teenagers now had rather play and spend all their money on Ricers. I know this for a fact because I have watched several of my sons buddies haul off our old Muscle Cars to the scrap yard so they can get some quick cash to buy some bolt on crap for their Ricers....:eek:
Everyone on this forum should be wholeheartedly supporting our young guys for Whatever they want to do with the old Muscle Cars. My personal preference finds that when I walk through car shows, the stock, plain jane all original cars have no interest to me. Its the guys that do the Custom and Innovative stuff to their cars that gets my attention.
I say Matt, build your ride to represent YOU, not what the general population would have you do!!!! If you put your heart and soul into your ride, then it will all work out in the end for you. Good luck with your build. Hope to see pics of it soon.
I guess this sort of puts me up to about my 4 cents worth now on this topic.

Nicely said Bigdaddy, I also have a Pontiac with Canadain Pontiac engine in it, (SBC), Mine never had the correct engine either and SBC was readily available compared to the Pontiac engine ( in my location). My car is not stock, but it's mine to do whatever I would like to do with, and I also thought that's what this section of the board is all a bout is it not, Non Pontiac Engine In Pontiac?? Just another 2 cent to play with.

:fencing:

[Pontiacdaver]

Wow, I thought this thread died out a year ago.

BigDaddyJC, I completely agree with your thoughts on many of today's teens. My son, 16, can't stand ricers. I can even understand younger guys having no knowledge of what real Pontiac engined cars are about, they haven't put one in a Pontiac for almost 29 years. But, maybe that is one reason why it is important to keep the faith alive.
Example: I have always been a diehard Richard Petty fan, he retired in 1992, my son was born in 1991. He knows who he is, and what his accomplishments were, but wasn't around to experience it, so he sees him in a completely different way.

Lemans64, and BigDaddyJC, at least for me personally.......I like most cars, but I like them with the family of engines that came in them. After all, Chevys, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, and Buicks each have their own distinct qualities (before GM decided to ruin that in the late 70s), that's why each has it's own following. And I have nothing against Canadian Pontiacs, that is how they were built.

Bottom line is this: This is a Pontiac forum, and yes, there is a topic covering "Non Pontiac Motors in Pontiacs", and most importantly, what you do to your own car, is entirely your business, but I wouldn't expect guys on a Pontiac forum to happily accept hearing about a Chevy engine in a Pontiac. It may be more common to hear "Ford vs Chevy", but inside GM, it has, and always will be Pontiac vs Chevy.
Try going to a Chevy forum, and talk about your Ford powered Camaro, or a Mustang forum with your SBC engined Fox body, and see what kind of reception you get.
I think we Pontiac enthusiasts are tired of always getting Chevy powered Pontiacs rammed down our throats by Car Craft, Popular Hot Rodding, and the like, because when they do feature a Pontiac, it is almost always Chevy powered. Especially since nowadays there are many high-quality Pontiac-powered Pontiacs updated with the latest suspension and brake technology, custom interiors, etc.. I don't consider putting a Chevy engine in another make of car being innovative.

I realize it is cheaper to build a Chevy motor, heck I think Wal-Mart sells rebuild kits for them now, and that is the basic reason there are so many more of them out there.
I'm on as limited a budget as anyone on this forum, but if I were going to build a Chevy motor, I wouldn't put it in anything but a Chevy car.

That last statement was entirely, and absolutely, hypothetical.

[BigDaddyJC]

Wow, guess I did not know that there was such a division within the GM platform of vehicles.
Everyone has their own opinion, so I can respect them all. I can agree that to restore a car to its original condition one should keep it all Pontiac if at all possible.
I am going to keep on my project though just as planned, and continue to have lots of fun with my build on the street and at the local Drag Strip.
My view on GM is stricly body styles and how they hold up at the track. I dont build my engines conventional anyway, so the SBC platform for me is the only way go because there is such a large selection of options and performance parts to play with. I am sure Pontiac has its share also, but I just really have had better luck with the SBC. Once I get tired of tuning on the SBC 400 I have just finished building, the next engine my Pontiac will get is the BBC 572 anyways with a narrowed and tubbed rear axle-(I'll just refrain from naming the type other than its a 9" RP) and adjustable 4 link system....:D

[6D6GOAT]

hhhmmmm...so when i put a SBC... painted Ford red..backed by a Dodge tranny in my Pontiac who am i going to piss off the most? :)

[tom s]

no malice intended but who gives a crap about anything but a real pontiac on this pontiac site?Tom

[WDCreech]

no malice intended but who gives a crap about anything but a real pontiac on this pontiac site?Tom

Amen to that!

[goquick]

What Tom said.

[Jeff Walker]

Sooo then, what are you last three guys EVEN looking at this section of the forum for???:p:bolt:

[6D6GOAT]

Sooo then, what are you last three guys EVEN looking at this section of the forum for???:p:bolt:


Amen to that.




What Jeff said. :)

[tom s]

just interested in who was going to ruin a good pontiac!Tom

[Pontiacdaver]

Yep, just seein' who owns, but doesn't get, the whole reason for owning a Pontiac. Maybe when they grow up, they'll get it.

BTW, anyone else like Jim Wanger's Ponte Carlo?

[6D6GOAT]

Yep, just seein' who owns, but doesn't get, the whole reason for owning a Pontiac. Maybe when they grow up, they'll get it.

BTW, anyone else like Jim Wanger's Ponte Carlo?


lol...and what exactly is the "whole reason for owning a pontiac?"



also, im not sure if im capable of picking out what i want to wear tomorrow..i was hoping you guys can tell me.



-A mind is like a parachute....it only works when it is open.


.

[goquick]

Having owned over a dozen chevy powered race cars, pro street cars, I like to see who hasn't figured out that chevy engines are way overrated.

[hectore3]

Jeeez! Lock this thread already.

[6D6GOAT]

Having owned over a dozen chevy powered race cars, pro street cars, I like to see who hasn't figured out that chevy engines are way overrated.

I know im a little late on jumping into this thread but..

fwiw, im not putting one because i think it more powerful/better/cooler than a Pontiac...i just want to run twins and its real difficult to do with a big fat asss pontiac motor hoggin up the whole engine bay....dont get me wrong, looks cool, but to me, at this point in my life, not as cool as twin turbs on a SBC. not to mention the cost/options and availability ease of building a SBC. Hell, i needed some header gaskets for my pontiac just the other day.....no one stocks them locally (well one guy does in san pedro but he wasnt answering his phone that day :( ) so my car sat there for 3 days as i waited to get my 17 dollar gaskets (plus 10.95 handling) delivered from summit....now if i had a SBC i can go ANYWHERE and pick some up.

Besides, its not like people who do this swap are welding the damn SBC's to the frame...all its going to take is for someone to loosen some bolts and pull it out.... geez

[goquick]

6D6GOAT, It is actuly easier to do the twin turbo set up with the Pontiac vs. the sbc. Been there done that. The sbc has issues too. And a 67 chevelle is close to under hood area of your GTO. Why haven't you switched to copper exhaust gaskets? Install once and forget 'em. Do your twin turbos with a Pontiac engine, or buy a chevelle.

[6D6GOAT]

how in the world can u say that running twins with a pontiac is easier than a SBC given the funky head (exhaust side) design of a pontiac. not to mention the width of the pontiac motor. i cant even see how to run the down pipe on the drivers side given the lack of room let alone the limited space in between the heads and the frame for the manifolds.
I have spent alot of time trying to figure out how to run twins or even a big single on a pontiac and it seems sooooooo much easier with a SBC.

what are the issues with a SBC?

PS. as for copper gaskets ive read mixed results on them. Im happy with the fel pros. i had to swap them out not because they were leaking but because i used non-sensor safe silicone on them and it ruined my O2 sensor. (i thought everything was sensor safe nowadays :( )

[goquick]

Very easy to say that it is easier with a Pontiac than a sbc. The sbc has a side exit just under the valve cover, just barely above the spark plugs. Now you can either burn the valve covers or the plug wires. With the Pontiac,You don't have either issue. As for no room, that's bunk. There is plenty of room. With a twin tubo set up, you should be placing them forward of the engine right? Or else on top, which while making only a couple hp better, won't allow you to do any thing on top (regardless of engine brand) if you say break a rocker arm. Sounds like you are looking for an off the shelve header arrangement of which there is no such thing for either type engine with turbo set ups. If you want manifolds, that's easy, just turn them around from normal, but why would you? On your style frame, The forward cylinders are very easy to run the tubes from, even easier than the set back sbc. The second pair of cylinders would turn down at a slight angle while going forward. Same with the rear middle cylinders. The rear tube can come forward after dropping down. Those would run along the frame rails with a slight bend back toward the block after it gets under the middle cylinders tubes. Not hard, just some thought and a little time. And it is alot cleaner looking than any sbc ever could be. Do you need me to do them for you?

[WDCreech]

Sooo then, what are you last three guys EVEN looking at this section of the forum for???:p:bolt:

Since I know of a person pulling out a 400 Pontiac, and puting in a 400 sbc, and loosing almost 2 seconds, I thought I'd try to keep some one else from making a big mistake.

[6D6GOAT]

Very easy to say that it is easier with a Pontiac than a sbc. The sbc has a side exit just under the valve cover, just barely above the spark plugs. Now you can either burn the valve covers or the plug wires. With the Pontiac,You don't have either issue. As for no room, that's bunk. There is plenty of room. With a twin tubo set up, you should be placing them forward of the engine right? Or else on top, which while making only a couple hp better, won't allow you to do any thing on top (regardless of engine brand) if you say break a rocker arm. Sounds like you are looking for an off the shelve header arrangement of which there is no such thing for either type engine with turbo set ups. If you want manifolds, that's easy, just turn them around from normal, but why would you? On your style frame, The forward cylinders are very easy to run the tubes from, even easier than the set back sbc. The second pair of cylinders would turn down at a slight angle while going forward. Same with the rear middle cylinders. The rear tube can come forward after dropping down. Those would run along the frame rails with a slight bend back toward the block after it gets under the middle cylinders tubes. Not hard, just some thought and a little time. And it is alot cleaner looking than any sbc ever could be. Do you need me to do them for you?

well, still not sure im buying it. still seems alot easier to run a SBC and buy some spark plug insulators to protect the plug wires and fab up a simple heat shield in between the turbo and valve cover to keep it from cooking the valve cover and oil inside. (i would rather run manifolds that come up rather than to the front of the motor) I dont want to worry about having to remove the power steering pump and/or cooking my accessories.
I see the stainless steel manifolds all day long on Ebay. (i know that the quality is questionable) im even trying to design a TT SBC setup using cheap cast iron ram horns that you can get anywhere for 25 bucks. if one cracks, buy another. Thats not something you can do with a custom made Pontiac turbo manifold.

as for fabbing up manifolds for a Pontiac im pretty sure i have the mechanical aptitude to do it...it looks challenging to get the primaries to wrap around the mounting bolts etc..i just dont have the time or desire to dedicate to it.

Besides, i still dont see an answer to how im going to run the 3 inch down pipe on the drivers side if i were to run twins on the Pontiac.

i appreciate your time....my mind is still open...there is still time to save this old Pontiac. lol

[goquick]

You don't need a custom manifold. Just turn the stockers around on the other side of the engine. As for the rams horns being 25 bucks, I know a whole bunch of chevy guys that would love to hear that cheap price!!!

[6D6GOAT]

tried that with the pontiac manifolds and realized that it cant be done...and then later i thought i could..i would go out there and take some measurements and convince myself it cant be done that way...then later i would think it can and i would go back out there only to convince myself once again it cant be done. it dumps right onto/next to the steering box and other linkage on the drivers side. plus you would have to make a pretty sharp U bend to get up to the turbo on the passenger side. that providing you wanted to mount it to the motor and not the chassis

sorry, they are 27.50 not 25 ;) but i doesnt look like you can simply flip those and slap a turbo on top. looks like it would rub some spark wires and the manifold doesnt appear to be far enough way from the head to not interfere with the valve cover when flipped. now im thinking simply weld a mild steel T3 flange directly to the flange on some shorty block huggers and flip them upside down

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-chevy-CORVETTE-57-80-79-78-77-76-75-74_W0QQitemZ330142562124QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33632QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem








.

[pierced mikey]

6d6GOAT, I pilfered this pic off of here for my screensaver. It was someone on here's motor, I believe it's a 455tt. I'm not sure who it was, but the title of the pic is Flyer Engine Front. You should be able to talk to them to see what was involved.

[goquick]

6D6GOAT, Do you already have that sbc engine? Sounds like it the way you are describing things. I do think with a little work, the Pontiac can and i.m.o. should be the turbo engine of choice. As I has told you earlier, you have an absolutely beautiful ride and I'd love to see you keep it all Pontiac.

[6D6GOAT]

mikey, i have talked to 455turbo and been to his site. he sells manifolds but they are a little out of my range.


Go Quick.

no i dont have the SBC. Ill do alot of research before id take that plunge. I do have some good news for you. Im getting ready to buy an old VW micro bus. im sure that will take alot of the free time that i was going to put into the SBC conversion. More importantly, i took some pics at the local cruise in of SBC's in A bodies and it still looks like i ll have a little trouble with the drivers side down pipe so that took a little wind out of my sails.

For now it will remain a supercharged PONTIAC. I just wish i could get this dam TBI fuel injection dialed in.

thanks again.

[goquick]

6D6GOAT, In the future, there is another option for us with the CV-1 heads and convertible exhaust ports. Oh, the future has arrived.