Pontiac 455 into a Corvette

[Gary S.]

I wonder if this has ever been done?

[JSAauto]

What is it with you guys in Texas?? Nothing else better to do?? ;) (kidding)

[kookykrispy]

sell the 455 to me and I'll hook you up on a deal for a running 454 in el paso

please keep a chevy a chevy and a poncho a poncho

[heff]

but WHY would it be done? a bbc will eat a pontiac...why beat a dead horse?

[Jack Gifford]

but WHY would it be done? a bbc will eat a pontiac...why beat a dead horse?
Whoa! Them's fightin' words, Heff!
My Pontiacs whup'd up on a number of BBCs the years that I was mini-rod pulling. 540 c.i. Rodecks, 600 c.i. BBCs, etc.

[Pontiacmuscle]

Id love to see what a built Pontiac would do in a '63 Split Window or a '66 Convertible!
Anybody needs a hand putting one together....Im IN!! I get the first ride if Jack will Drive!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-Big-Block-1966-427-425hp-4-Speed-Mosport-Green-Corvette-Coupe_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6168QQitemZ461807 0962QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[455RM]

Yes, it's been done. I bought a wrecked '80 'Vette specifically because it had a 1971 455HO in it.

[Oman]

I knew a guy in Ct who had a 389 in a 57 or 58 Corvette. 3x2 4 speed. Interesting thing.

[David Holmberg]

Someone is Ace Brewers (Ace PPR) family had or has one. I remember Ace talking about it years ago...

[Gary S.]

Pics would be nice...

[JSAauto]

Whoa! Them's fightin' words, Heff!
My Pontiacs whup'd up on a number of BBCs the years that I was mini-rod pulling. 540 c.i. Rodecks, 600 c.i. BBCs, etc.

Yep.... thems always been fightin words. And the Ponchos usually loose when you're talking sheer horsepower or E.T. apples for apples.

Take a look at this recent field of NHRA Super Stocker time slips Lynn posted and then tell me where the Poncho's are?

http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?t=470165

If you were beating guys with Rodeck motors... then I'd say they lost because they didn't know what they were doing or for other reasons (traction, lame driver, etc).

Enter a Poncho in NHRA Stock or Super Stock and get back to me when you lay down your e.t.'s ;)

If you want something that is really unusual... put a Turbo Buick V-6 in it. You can make every bit of Torque the BB chevy or Poncho would make. That would really flip people out.

[Mr Dave]

There's a few Turbo Buick V6 Corvettes out there already.

[Jack Gifford]

Hm... should I apologize for "knowing what I was doing" with Pontiac power?
I guess it's good to have at least a few forum members who are not true Pontiac fans- keeps us on our toes!

[JSAauto]

Jack....
No apologies needed. It's obvious you know what you're doing with Poncho power. Look at how fast your car runs.:cool:

My only point was in the apples to apples comparison. The level (well... not so level with stock replacement heads) playing field of NHRA is where the B.S. stops and the real competition starts.

If you call racing & building Pontiacs for over 20 years not being a true pontiac fan, oh well then. But I have alot of respect for any maker that can make big gains in power or technology regardless of the make. Maybe that's why I was incorporating things like heart shaped combustion chambers, mirror image pistons, reverse flow cooling systems, drilling head decks for more even coolant flow around the combustion chambers, moving ports, moving valve trains, increasing plenum area's on the old Doug Nash intakes, using "chevy" technology (big tabu according to guys like McCarthy way back when) like turning down mains to fit 455 cranks in 400 blocks (bearing speed), lightening crank counterweights, etc, etc, 5-15 years ago? And what would you call someone that purposely went to the NHRA drags to see ol Pete McCarthy and John Angeles try (and did) win the 1982 Super Stock championship? Rooting for them all the way amongst all the Hemis and BB Chevies?

Nah... I'm not a "true" Pontiac fan ;)

That was a great day for true Pontiac racers across the country.

We're you there?? :rolleyes: And even if you weren't... I wouldn't question your Pontiac devotion.

[gearbanger]

There were two apples to apples comparisons here recently where Mighty T/A kicked every one of the Chevies arses but one, coming in second in the Pump gas Drags.

The other was John Kasse's Pontiac that put up the highest scores among all competitors, mostly chevies.

That is apples to apples. The reason you don't see the pontiacs in the superstockers is because those classes force you to use stock parts which are in fact inferior to the factory chevy stuff that had many more years of technology in them and not held back by GM corporate @ssholes. But it is a different world now Chevy boy. You better watch your back now, you never know when a big inch Poncho breathing through some Highports or Tigers is going to sneak up and eat your lunch. It will happen, you won't like it, but there is nothing you can do about it.

[JSAauto]

Gearbanger....

It's all good. Don't be hatin just because of the "corporate" decisions that kept GM alive. But to say that Pontiac had less years in the development of their engines is simply not true. Take a look at this.

http://www.welovepontiacs.com/history.html

I have several old Hot rod magazines that had on the cover many experimental engines being developed by Pontiac as well as Chevy and Ford. back then.... overhead cams, multiple valves, and other ideas that both Chevy and Pontiac were proposing just weren't financially feasable for them to produce in numbers. And is why the BB & SB Chevy won out. It's all about profits in the end. Maybe if Pontiac had concentrated on a simple canted 2 valve BB like Chevy did, they might have been still around. But even today... with the LSx's, GM shows how sometimes simplicity is the best way. But remember.... it's all metal and metal has no brains. An engine doesn't know what kind of label it has on it.

Yeah.... I saw the shoot out with Kaase. No disrespect to Pontiac engines....... but..... If I remember correctly, Kaase is a Ford guy. How do you feel that a Ford guy made a Poncho make power? Will you start waving a Ford flag too?

I've e-mailed with Mighty T/A a while back when me and Pdude were having pump gas engine disputes. He's a very smart guy. He too incorporates technology that was developed by Chevrolets LT-1 in his Pontiac. So should we say he "stole" ideas that were originally Chevies?? It doesn't matter. But I know he's smart enough to know that his Pontiac is no where near rule adhereing/competitve enough to do battle with the likes of NHRA stock or super stock. He'd have to start all over again with his combination. But that's not to say the technologies that he incorporated weren't ingenious.

This is an old time pissing argument on any board regardless if it's a Ford, Mopar, or GM board. Mine is better because ............. (add your own reason)

I prefer to look at engine builders/people like Kaase, Duttweiler, Wilson, Bill Mitchell, Reher-morrison, Fisher, Richard Childress, Roush, Ed Donovan, Glidden, Bill Jenkins, etc.... that take a "clean sheet" approach to building race engines. They have no problem with taking technology developed by others and using it in their development. Which... by the way.... all the new Poncho parts you're talking about coming down the pike?? All carry engineering developments made by other companies.

So yeah!! I'm excited that new parts are becoming available for Ponchos as is for everything else. But to think that a traditional bore spacing Pontiac will ever be competitive in lets say, NHRA Pro-Stock, is dreaming. And until the "purists" accept the fact that the bore spacing is your limiting factor, you will never be competitive with the likes of NHRA Pro-Stock. So in essence, I guess I would say that Warren or Curt Johnson will never worry about a "traditional" Poncho ever showing up at the starting line of an NHRA Pro-Stock event.

[7T2]

WELL SAID gearbanger...

[Jack Gifford]

... Look at how fast your car runs...
Say what??

[WDCreech]

I first read this thread this morning and the posts by JSAauto have been eating on me. So I have to tell you a story about a road race that I had with a friend in his "67 400hp, 427, 4speed Corvette. I had a '63 LeMans with a dual quad, hydraulic cammed, .040 over 389 and a 3.23 Speacial Vista Cruiser rear. He left in front of me and I stayed on his tail until we got to a half mile straight. Came out of a hard left hand curve, nailed it and before we got to the end of the straightaway, I pulled in front of him. When we got to the bar that we were racing to, I told Kris to keep it under his hat because I didn't want everyone to know how quick my car ran as I was street racing for money, some weekends. A couple years later I beat the first 450hp, 454 Chevelle that came to Anchorage. So you can't tell me that a Pontiac will be beat, just because it's racing a Chevy. Also My son just told me that there is a guy on Pinks, that has an Indian Adventures in a vette, that is kicking butt. As my dad used to say, "Put that in your pipe, and smoke it"

[Mo]

Cool story Bill.

A Pontiac in a Vette = shredded IRS. That is why they used those weak a$$ snail blocks to reduce warranty claims. I recall an article about 427 Cobra vs BB Corvette(1969?) and the vette grenaded the IRS. Whoops!


John Langer Wins!!!!

[Half-Inch Stud]

I REMEMBER being in a 63 split-window with the 327 4-speed when it grenaded the IRS DIff. It got wheelhop during a 1st-2nd opportunity. Opportunity sounded like a missed shift with hammer-in-the bucketseat effect. Certainly remember pushing it back to its driveway.

Post-mortem: Diff case split.
Fix: A repop HD Diff case. I had advised putting a 12-bolt centersection in, from a Big-Vette.

[JSAauto]

Say what??

Did you understand that this was a complement about how fast your car runs??

[JSAauto]

I first read this thread this morning and the posts by JSAauto have been eating on me. So I have to tell you a story about a road race that I had with a friend in his "67 400hp, 427, 4speed Corvette. I had a '63 LeMans with a dual quad, hydraulic cammed, .040 over 389 and a 3.23 Speacial Vista Cruiser rear. He left in front of me and I stayed on his tail until we got to a half mile straight. Came out of a hard left hand curve, nailed it and before we got to the end of the straightaway, I pulled in front of him. When we got to the bar that we were racing to, I told Kris to keep it under his hat because I didn't want everyone to know how quick my car ran as I was street racing for money, some weekends. A couple years later I beat the first 450hp, 454 Chevelle that came to Anchorage. So you can't tell me that a Pontiac will be beat, just because it's racing a Chevy. Also My son just told me that there is a guy on Pinks, that has an Indian Adventures in a vette, that is kicking butt. As my dad used to say, "Put that in your pipe, and smoke it"

Not sure why my posts are "eating at you", but I can understand why you're so patriotic flying the Pontiac flag. I did for 20 years of my life.

One guy with a Vette and one guy with a Lemans on one road out of the thousands of guys across the country with a similar scenario. Doesn't seem to be apples for apples with me. Take someone like Mark Donahue, a living racing legend that raced these types of races daily, and I'm sure he could tell you who was on top of the heap in 1969.
http://www.motorsportshalloffame.com/halloffame/1990/Mark_Donahue_main.htm

Seems like you guys just don't understand the whole "even playing field concept". If the Poncho's were the big dawgs... you'd see them in NHRA, IHRA, NASCAR, TRANS AM, etc being competitive using their traditional parts as casted.

Like I said... your alligiance is fine. It's cool really. Pontiacs have body lines and styling like no other. But like I said... when a traditional bore spacing Poncho motor shows up lined up against the likes of Warren Johnson, then the dreaming stops and proof becomes evident. You'll also find this out to be true in the shootout style normally aspirated heads up racing organizations. Even GM realized that the old Poncho motors would never be competitive with what the "cheap" and inexpensively produced large block Chevies could produce in the H.P. realm. Or haven't you heard of Big Chief heads from Pontiac??

Case closed.

[JSAauto]

Cool story Bill.

A Pontiac in a Vette = shredded IRS. That is why they used those weak a$$ snail blocks to reduce warranty claims. I recall an article about 427 Cobra vs BB Corvette(1969?) and the vette grenaded the IRS. Whoops!

Some history about Cobras and Vettes in racing history.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/vintage/vette.html

At one time, you had to start your sentance with Ford, Cobra, or Shelby to talk to me. I was a big fan of Carrol's and Ken Miles' work.
http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/Riverside19633.html

Take a look at the winnings of team Corvette over the years.
http://www.corvettethunder.com/chron-corv.htm

Even though the SC Cobra's were an awesome machine.... GM wasn't going to let that slide at the race track. Hence.... the "Grand Sport" corvette.
http://www.automedia.com/One/Grand/Sport/res20030901gs/1

Note: The Cobra's had dual quaded 427 side oiler big blocks... and the Vettes had those "weak a$$" 377 F.I. "snail blocks".
http://www.grandsportregistry.com/63_history.htm

A David vs Goliath approach if you ask me. Sorry if GM and Zora just outsmarted the Ford guys.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;)

[Wareagle]

Warren Johnson ? who cares- this post is about a 455 in a Vette-sounds good.

[Mo]

BS QUOTE:
A David vs Goliath approach if you ask me. Sorry if GM and Zora just outsmarted the Ford guys.

Hardly, the che-Vette had an all aluminum motor. A ZL something. Just saying when it DRAG raced the 427 Cobra the vette threw chunks on the track. Your basic Pontiac 455 will do the same thing. I know mine would shred that IRS.
If you are going to put a Pontiac in a mid-late 70's vette then stick with a 400. It will keep the plastic body from cracking as well.

Tell me more about the great 1975-1981 Corvettes.

Old vettes are for suckers. Parts cost 2-3 times as much just because it fits a vette. Amazing how many parts in Paragon are available from GM or Year One for a third the cost.

Funny Story: About 15 years ago a couple hot shot lawyers come in the shop with their 63 split window. A low 20k mile car. Real clean on top. The cats meow. Paid TOP dollar. The rarest, bestest car ever, right. Car wouldn't run for sh!t. Poor vette needed a tune-up real bad. Everything was original . Get this, they wouldn't let us replace the spark plugs because they had the "original" overspray on them. We (the shop) had to clean the old plugs as well as the points inside the cap and the rotor. The head mechanic changed the oil as well becuase of all the raw fuel mixed in. The car did run better but was running rich and needed the carb overhauled. No way were they gonna risk damaging the originality of the car by removing the carb. So after paying 3 times, in labor, of what it would cost to do a proper tune up, off they went with black smoke out the pipes. The best part, after they left, was when the mechanic revealed they were not the original plugs. They had overspray on them because the TOP of the engine was detailed, as in, repainted. They didn't know sh!t, but they thought their sh!t didn't stink just cause they owned a Vette. Typical CHEVY hoes!
The best is when you feed into the hype. They LOVE that. Just keep telling them how great that piece of plastic is as they hand over the plastic(Visa-MC). It's Priceless. LOL. SUCKERS!!!

[JSAauto]

Warren Johnson ? who cares- this post is about a 455 in a Vette-sounds good.

When was your screen name WDcreech??

[JSAauto]

BS QUOTE:
A David vs Goliath approach if you ask me. Sorry if GM and Zora just outsmarted the Ford guys.

Hardly, the che-Vette had an all aluminum motor. A ZL something. Just saying when it DRAG raced the 427 Cobra the vette threw chunks on the track. Your basic Pontiac 455 will do the same thing. I know mine would shred that IRS.
If you are going to put a Pontiac in a mid-late 70's vette then stick with a 400. It will keep the plastic body from cracking as well.

Tell me more about the great 1975-1981 Corvettes.

Old vettes are for suckers. Parts cost 2-3 times as much just because it fits a vette. Amazing how many parts in Paragon are available from GM or Year One for a third the cost.

Funny Story: About 15 years ago a couple hot shot lawyers come in the shop with their 63 split window. A low 20k mile car. Real clean on top. The cats meow. Paid TOP dollar. The rarest, bestest car ever, right. Car wouldn't run for sh!t. Poor vette needed a tune-up real bad. Everything was original . Get this, they wouldn't let us replace the spark plugs because they had the "original" overspray on them. We (the shop) had to clean the old plugs as well as the points inside the cap and the rotor. The head mechanic changed the oil as well becuase of all the raw fuel mixed in. The car did run better but was running rich and needed the carb overhauled. No way were they gonna risk damaging the originality of the car by removing the carb. So after paying 3 times, in labor, of what it would cost to do a proper tune up, off they went with black smoke out the pipes. The best part, after they left, was when the mechanic revealed they were not the original plugs. They had overspray on them because the TOP of the engine was detailed, as in, repainted. They didn't know sh!t, but they thought their sh!t didn't stink just cause they owned a Vette. Typical CHEVY hoes!
The best is when you feed into the hype. They LOVE that. Just keep telling them how great that piece of plastic is as they hand over the plastic(Visa-MC). It's Priceless. LOL. SUCKERS!!!

Man... you make so many un-educated statements... I don't know where to start? "Chevy hoes"? "weak a$$ snail blocks"? "plastic"?? Sounds to me like your jealous or something.

1st of all...... The difference between a showroom Cobra and a Showroom Vette is like the difference between a 2002 Camaro SS and a 2002 ZL1 F-1 Camaro 600 HP 427. The Cobra's were totally limited production all out custom race cars. 4" tube chassis, 12 or 14:1 motors, dual quads, 2300-2400lbs. A Corvette in the same years were all the same stuff you'd find on a showroom floor nothing even close to being as extravagent or race ready.

The reason I posted the links is so you could learn something about racing history. Obviously you didn't bother reading anything about the "Grand Sport". It was an all CAST IRON engine!! The original ZL1 all aluminum block 427 you mentioned was produced in 1969 only. Only 2 were ever produced. The "Grand Sport" was a Cobra eater, plain and simple. Shelby had nothing to compete with it. And that was WITH an IRS rear end.

As far as the IRS suspensions.... I guess it's like anything. If you know how to work on them, they can be very strong. The weakest points are the half shafts. But the differential is a similar 10 or 12 bolt that you find under a Poncho. I've got a customer with a 69 427 Vette that makes 660 RWP and has never had a problem with the rear end on or off slicks.

The IRS suspension should be evident to any motorhead that this car was made for handling and not all out drag racing. So again... apples and oranges. All out drag Vettes usually end up going to solid axle rear ends.

As far as Vette owners.... you'd be right about how nuts they are. I don't have time for the nutty ones. My Vette customers like to DRIVE their cars.

FYI.... since I am a true Pontiac lover.... I am fully aware of the ALL FIBERGLASS (or plastic as you call it) 1954 Bonneville Special that was a concept car made by PONTIAC!! LOL!!

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z11138/default.aspx

Looks just like a Corvette huh?? Whoops!!

[Mo]

"Looks just like a Corvette huh?? Whoops!!"

Yeah, funny how the 68 vette looks alot like the "not allowed because it will hurt covette sales" Banshee. Double Whoops!

[JSAauto]

Mo...

Not really wanting to get into a pissing contest with you ...... but you're just making my point for me. You laugh at the Corvette and call it "plastic" when it's not, but the Banshee was truly made of plastic.

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/96898

You call the small block Chevy a "weak a$$ed snail block", when it's not. You call people that enjoy, build, or race chevys "Chevy hoes", when that too isn't true.

No doubt Deloren built some cool cars and the higher up's got in the way of him from making more cool cars. But then again... he did build the Deloren with a Volvo motor :rolleyes:

It was through loop holes that the GTO ever made it through (thank goodness!!). But GM wrote his paycheck didn't they? Do you go into work and tell your boss how to run his business??

Yesterday I watched a program about how GM's recent financial troubles are caused because of the lack of cooporation between management, divisions, and people in the shop. Go figure?? Now that Pontiac vs Chevy (or whatever division) vs Management vs the blue collars has meant their near demise of the very company that made the cars we love..... are you starting to understand the business end vs your narrow minded view?

I always respect anyones great ideas. I'm not so narrowminded that just because it isn't a Poncho... it wasn't or isn't something to appreciate.

[Mo]

Mo...

Not really wanting to get into a pissing contest with you ...... but you're just making my point for me. You laugh at the Corvette and call it "plastic" when it's not, but the Banshee was truly made of plastic.

Yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't respond. Plastic has more than one meaning. Do a search on Google, Corvette and plastic. If there are no matches then I'll conceed.

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/96898

You call the small block Chevy a "weak a$$ed snail block", when it's not. You call people that enjoy, build, or race chevys "Chevy hoes", when that too isn't true.
A hoe is a tool. Yes, they are tools. As in "to shape or finish" like a mold for plastic.

No doubt Deloren built some cool cars and the higher up's got in the way of him from making more cool cars. But then again... he did build the Deloren with a Volvo motor :rolleyes:

Funny thing about that is that car is better know than the 69 can'tmaro.

It was through loop holes that the GTO ever made it through (thank goodness!!). But GM wrote his paycheck didn't they? Do you go into work and tell your boss how to run his business??

Now look who is narrow minded, my boss is a woman. And yes I do, we work as a team.

Yesterday I watched a program about how GM's recent financial troubles are caused because of the lack of cooporation between management, divisions, and people in the shop. Go figure?? Now that Pontiac vs Chevy (or whatever division) vs Management vs the blue collars has meant their near demise of the very company that made the cars we love..... are you starting to understand the business end vs your narrow minded view?

You reap what you sow. Guess they shouldn't have called them "divisions"

I always respect anyones great ideas. I'm not so narrowminded that just because it isn't a Poncho... it wasn't or isn't something to appreciate.

I do the same. I just don't think the vette was a "great" idea. It wasn't a PONTIAC, so how could it be great?

[Thumpin455_GTO]

Well one good thing came of Pontiac designing a slightly more expensive but in some ways superior engine. There is alot of Pontiac items on the LSx series of engines, things that no chevy had from the factory. Isnt there a cam cover on the LS1? Arent there ten bolts in each head? Arent the cylinder banks offset like a Pontiac rather than a Chevy? The heads are wedges not canted like a BBC, but more like a RA V that has the ports raised and narrowed to go around the pushrod?

Just from a quick look, it seems there is alot of Pontiac technology under the hood of my 98 Formula. Whats the better engine? Well that is personal preference really...
Do you enjoy digging spark plugs from under headers and the attendant burnt plug wires or would you rather see them?
Would you rather have a positive retention of the camshaft or just rely on the gear attached to the crank?
Do you think its a good idea to have hot oil splashing the underside of the intake?
Do you think having different rods for different engines of the same block size, or would you rather have almost everything be interchangeable between displacements?
Are you happy being limited to 400ci from roughly the same size block that yields 500ci with relative ease?(the sbc with most headers is only 1/2" narrower than a Pontiac)
Do you enjoy having motor mounts that you pull three bolts out of or just one?
Are you preferential to having a convoluted and somewhat difficult to install/remove power steering pump?
Do you think its a good idea to have a simple solution to running an oil cooler and remote filter, ie just tap the holes in the block as opposed to needing an adapter to even run a filter?
Do you like torque or do you like to spin and engine to 8000 rpm? 300ftlbs of torque is 300ftlbs, but where it is made is hp, because hp is a mathematical equasion, isnt it?
Do you like factory screw in studs on 4 barrel engines?
How about guide plates from the factory?
Some people think a 6" rod is a good idea, do you?

What was the first piston powered vehicle to run 400mph powered by?

The bickering about chevy vs Pontiac is silly. If they want to run a chevy, let them. When a $2500 hydrualic camed 455 in a heavier car with a STOCK converter can run within two tenths of a roller cammed BBC I dont feel so bad about having the slightly slower car.

[JSAauto]

The bickering about chevy vs Pontiac is silly.
But then you go onto bickering... lol!!:argue:

If they want to run a chevy, let them. When a $2500 hydrualic camed 455 in a heavier car with a STOCK converter can run within two tenths of a roller cammed BBC I dont feel so bad about having the slightly slower car.

:rolleyes:

Can somebody please pass the crack pipe?? :heh:

Boy!! Sounds like you boys need a reality check. Here's where the B.S. stops and apples for apples comparisons start. Notice the lack of Pontiacs in these lists.

http://www.nhra.com/stats/ss_record.html

http://www.nhra.com/stats/stk_record.html

When the only thing can contend with a Mopar Hemi is a BB Chevy.... and this is repeated time and time again across NHRA tracks all across the country in Stock and Super Stock... that should tell you guys something.

Or maybe you'll just keep living in your dreamworld? :rain:

[Mo]

Langer Wins!

[Thumpin455_GTO]

well personal experince showed me a roller cammed BBC running .2 faster than my hyd cammed 455. I didnt say anything about ALL roller cam BBCs did I? Thats like sying the Chevy will beat a Fuel Hemi because you can stomp a Desoto Hemi with a 427.


The bickering comment was sarcasm JS... I happen to be quite fond of the LS1 engine, even if it doesnt say Pontiac on the block. I just prefer to run a Pontiac, maybe because I am wierd, but also because its what I have. When I started with them, parts and entire engines were alot cheaper than big chevy stuff. Fords werent fast enough unless I could find a rare 428 or something similar, so Pontiac got the nod. Most of my friends are chevy owners, most of them get to see my tail lights too.

I like low buck speed, sure you might say that chevy is cheaper to build, but not like we did it. Remachine all the stock pieces, add some ported heads, a mild hydrualic cam, and run 11's in a 3700lb car. The stock rods lived for 7 years in that combination spinning to 6000 rpm on every pass. $5000 in the entire car, including purchase price, tires and insurance, running street legal 11's on DOT tires. Thats pretty cheap considering the longevity of the combination.

Its not a big deal, why are you so passionate about it anyway?

I for one would enjoy a Vette with a 455 in it, it would just be interesting to see the Vette owners get all wound up over it. I would do it with an aftermarket body though, that is just how I am. Why cut up a real Vette, its just more work and who else woud buy it? Most Pontiac guys dont want it, and Chevy guys would hate it...

Yep. LANGER WINS!

[Thumpin455_GTO]

JS, just wanted to point out something, few of us are Super Stock racers. I started street racing. One night of limited traction and a near miss with a large nebraska ditch made me rethink the whole late night clansdestine thing.

Stock and Super Stock are cool, I love to watch them. But its much more fun to participate than watch, dont ya think? I would much rather be running low 10s with a car I built myself than watching anyone else race what they have. I chose to run Pontiacs in my race cars, but I am only a bracket racer on a budget. I have parts layin around so I use what I have.

At my level its tough to beat a Pontiac, especially when you enjoy doing some street driving with it and the 5.13 gears and 5000 stall you would need for a typical sbc to run the same numbers, make it rather unfun to cruise. 2400 stall and 3.42 gears are easier on the wallet too.

Its FUN for me, not a business. I cant make any money in this racing thing, its just a hobby.

[Razorhorn]

BS QUOTE:
Tell me more about the great 1975-1981 Corvettes.

Old vettes are for suckers. Parts cost 2-3 times as much just because it fits a vette. Amazing how many parts in Paragon are available from GM or Year One for a third the cost.



Hey! I resemble that remark!

[JSAauto]

Hey John... pleased to make your acquaintance. Kinda funny circumstances though...

well personal experince showed me a roller cammed BBC running .2 faster than my hyd cammed 455. I didnt say anything about ALL roller cam BBCs did I? Thats like sying the Chevy will beat a Fuel Hemi because you can stomp a Desoto Hemi with a 427.

Well... the reason I brought in the NHRA stock and super stock arguement is because you can't get a more even playing field when you're talking about using trad Chevy vs AMC vs Ford vs Poncho vs whatever parts in racing.

If the roller BBC only made a .2 difference against your hyd cammed Poncho... give that fella my number. I could get the same .2 with a hyd cam and a properly matched setup if not more.

The bickering comment was sarcasm JS... I happen to be quite fond of the LS1 engine, even if it doesnt say Pontiac on the block. I just prefer to run a Pontiac, maybe because I am wierd, but also because its what I have.

Sarcasm is fine. But there are soooo many people that just have the blinders on when it comes to technology in general because of some patriotic faith in a brand name. Because I've kept my mind open and the blinders off, I've been involved in some projects that should have never done what they ended up doing.

When I started with them, parts and entire engines were alot cheaper than big chevy stuff. Fords werent fast enough unless I could find a rare 428 or something similar, so Pontiac got the nod. Most of my friends are chevy owners, most of them get to see my tail lights too.

Same with me. Back in 1990 I had a Dodge D50 pickup (actually a Mitsubishi) that I found out could use Chevy pistons and Rods. And with a turbo head, a custom header, a cam made for me from an old core, my own custom made roller rockers, side drafts and a port nitrous system, I was running 11.50's at the very 1st import drags at LACR. I totally believed in working with what you have. It's the mother of innovation.

I like low buck speed, sure you might say that chevy is cheaper to build, but not like we did it. Remachine all the stock pieces, add some ported heads, a mild hydrualic cam, and run 11's in a 3700lb car. The stock rods lived for 7 years in that combination spinning to 6000 rpm on every pass. $5000 in the entire car, including purchase price, tires and insurance, running street legal 11's on DOT tires. Thats pretty cheap considering the longevity of the combination.

You're preaching to the choir my friend. Take a look at my old Jim Hand inspired 64 GP below. 5000 lbs, 3.0 gear with welded spiders, 2 nitrous units (a cheater plate and a home made hidden port system) (Harry K?? Do you still have that manifold I gave you??) a STOCK 70' GP 455 HO motor w an 041 cam, quadrajet, stock exhaust manifolds, my 2 tool trays, spare tires, and a full sized garage jack in the trunk that ran 12.2-11.90's on the plate and as low as 10.90's on both units.

I showed up at the very 1st Pontiac Drag days here in Los Angeles. People were making fun of the car till they saw it launch. I was running faster than most guys that trailered their stuff there. And I think I had $3000 in the whole car including the M&H D.O.T. wrinkle walls. Do you like the hub cap effect?? :D

Its not a big deal, why are you so passionate about it anyway?

Just like you John... racing is in my blood. I'm very passionate about everything I do. Been that way ever since I was a kid working at my dad's gas station.

I for one would enjoy a Vette with a 455 in it, it would just be interesting to see the Vette owners get all wound up over it. I would do it with an aftermarket body though, that is just how I am. Why cut up a real Vette, its just more work and who else woud buy it? Most Pontiac guys dont want it, and Chevy guys would hate it...

Wanna piss them off even more?? Throw a Buick Grand National (or.... pardon me..... an 89 Turbo Trans Am motor ;) ) in it with some mods to get it around 600 ft lbs torque (pretty easy with a Turbo Buick) and blow by another Vette owner. Pull off the road and let him see what just beat him. A freakin V-6!!! LOL!!

JS, just wanted to point out something, few of us are Super Stock racers. I started street racing. One night of limited traction and a near miss with a large nebraska ditch made me rethink the whole late night clansdestine thing.

Look at the city in my profile. Van Nuys. That would be the same place that used to house the legendary Lions dragstrip. Mickey Thompson was a regular in these parts. My old boss used to see him constantly at Prestige Pontiac here in Van Nuys. I'd like to think that California invented year round street racing, and it was alive and well until recently with all the laws. Loosing your car over a street race nowadays is just too high a price to pay.

But you'll be glad to know I took money from many a blower Mustangs and Camaro's as well with that old G.P. My favorite line was, "he guys!! I was wondering who owned that Mustang over there? Wanna race my grandma's Grand Prix??" Hee-hee!!

Stock and Super Stock are cool, I love to watch them. But its much more fun to participate than watch, dont ya think?

Yes and no. I used to crew on a Blown Gas Hydro boat team, a Top Fuel Team and a Formula Vee team. Living out of a suitcase sucked. When we were repairing engines from round to round, just to make it back to the starting line in the nick of time...... that got old really fast. Now that I'm more into the Turbo stuff...... it's make a pass, read the datalog from the data acquisition, maybe whip out the laptop and make a few changes, and then have a beer. Now that's my idea of racing!! :clap2:


I would much rather be running low 10s with a car I built myself than watching anyone else race what they have. I chose to run Pontiacs in my race cars, but I am only a bracket racer on a budget. I have parts layin around so I use what I have.

How many BES 525 Poncho motors you got "layin around" there bud?? Can I buy a couple from ya?? ;)

But seriously..... Ditto.

The picture in my avatar is my 69 SS/RS Camaro. 3560 lbs with a BBC on squeeze. The car is basically a Pro Gas/Super Gas deal with headlights, taillights, turn signals, wipers, etc.

At my level its tough to beat a Pontiac, especially when you enjoy doing some street driving with it and the 5.13 gears and 5000 stall you would need for a typical sbc to run the same numbers, make it rather unfun to cruise. 2400 stall and 3.42 gears are easier on the wallet too.

What kinda gears you runnin in that 69 Firdbird of yours? I'm running a 4:56 with a Continental Nitrous 10" 3500 stall unit. On the NOS, it flashes to 4500.

Its FUN for me, not a business. I cant make any money in this racing thing, its just a hobby.

I think you nailed it right there. And it goes along with my passion statement. I've done and do cars for a living still because it's something that I like doing. It's still a challenge and a learning curve for me. Even if I didn't wrench for a living anymore, I'd still have my hands deep into a project or some kind.

Take care,

John

[455Dave]

John,

I've been kicking around an idea to hack up up my 73 vette and turn it into a Banshee clone. I had the good luck to have a friend with a camera and a radio/cell phone at Barrett Jackson when the 6 cylinder Banshee was in line to hit the block. The owner heard me talking so he dropped the rope and I got a ton of closeup pictures of the Banshee. If I did it I was planning on a 455 but the turbo V6 sounds pretty interesting.

Anyway, it will probably never happen as the wife may start road racing and this thing is already tricked out with Dick Guildstrand suspension and Biltsteins so it may be matter of freshen the engine, install a stinger hood and shoot the car so she can have some fun but the Banshee would be a lot more fun.

[Mo]

A.S. The points you make about NHRA stock events are moot because GM didn't allow Pontiac to be competitive. How many RA5 455s were produced? GM let chevy do what they wanted and held the others back. So much for you trying to keep things "apples to apples" when your not allowed get pick your own apple. You have to use the one "they" say you are allowed to use. That is B.S. in my book.

Didn't you ever wonder why it so hard to get a forged crank for a pontiac? Did you really? Do you think that is by accident? Would it have been that hard for GM to produce one. They already did in the SD era, then what happened? There have been thousands made for chevys, BB and sb. They cost money too. The fact is cheby was scared of Pontiac in the early sixties and made every effort to keep them from being competitve. Ban on Racing, CID limits, HP limits and so on. We have heard it over and over.

I am thankful that there were as many Hard Core Pontiac guys out there to pave the way for the rest of us REAL Pontiac guys. If not I'd probably drive an AMC..NOT!

Remember Mr Miaggie(sp), "He who stand in middle of road, get squished like grape".

Other makes and models have their place, but NOT in my garage.

As for my choice, a RA IV, 4 spd with 4.33 in a 69/70 chebette would be interesting.

[Thumpin455_GTO]

John, names Todd. nice to meet ya... :) I wish I had a 69 bird, they are somewhat lighter than the 79 I have. Somehow I have it down to 3100lbs still all the steel body parts. Now it has 4.10s in it, the 467 seems to like them better than the 3.42. Since the last all iron engine, I stepped the bird up a bit. For me its a high dollar combo, roller, ported E heads, 1050, etc. I got a chunk of money from my last desert TDY and sunk it into my car.

The guy with the roller BBC is a chevy tech in Nebraska. It had bowtie heads and a 4 speed with 4.10 gears @ around 3450lbs. It ran 11.5 in street trim with a decent 60ft. It wasnt like it was a 2.0 or something crappy, it was 1.7 or better every pass. The 79 was 3700lbs with my 230lbs cutting 11.7 untill the track told me I need a cage. Best 60ft was 1.5 it was using an L88 type converter, stall was around 1900-2100rpm. Stone stock suspension, so it ran okay for no more than it was. I figure the other guy knew what he was doing since he was a tech. I know a 454 is capable of more, but his combo ran that. He had roughly double the $$ in it compared to mine.

Everyone is different, every car is different. There may have been more in the combo I had, but with no roll bar, I didnt push for more. Just dialed it back to 12.2 for brackets. The fun part was people asking if it was a big block, then asking how much I was spraying since it was a Pontiac. I had the bottle on it for a while, but with the 4.10s in it at the time, I only gained .2 in the 1/4, due mainly to the gears and RPM being maxed by the 1/8th. Stock rods suck for racing, but it was all I could afford.

I used to own a shop, worked on everything. Didnt like it much, made me not want to work on my cars. So I went back to the USAF in 2000, just got out last August. Kinda permanently retired from a real job, so I play with my toys. The USbody 67 Vette body has me interested, make it a sorta street car with the new 467 a possiblity. Maybe in a couple years when I have sold off the projects underway right now.

I dont like doing chevy, loathe is more like it. But since I dont want to sell a bunch of the Pontiacs I have lusted over since the early 80's, I build anything I can find. Right now its a 71 Mustang fastback that I bought back in 94 for $20. Next up is a mid 80s Blazer 4x4 I got for free.(long story) Who knows after that.

Buick V6 is an interesting piece, but I like large CI, low rpm, and NA. Less chance of me screwin something up. I have a couple 231s sittin around, but they arent turbo. no BES engines, just a bunch of cores, mostly 400s. I put Pontiacs in everything GM, even my 76 Shortbox 1/2 ton, the 305 wouldnt pull the car trailer good enough. A BBC core back home runs $800 or more, I can still find 400s for free, 455s cost more if you can find them. I run what I can afford, pure and simple. Sometimes I can afford more, sometimes not, but I never sell a car that has a race engine in it... lol. thats a good way to lose alot of $$.and cool parts.

[Steve Barcak]

I think a Pontiac in a Vette is a great idea. I like the older Vettes, pre '80. I even owned one, a yellow '79 I bought in '80. I had planned to put in a 428 as soon as it was paid for. I got tired of car payments and also found myself rubber necking Pontiacs while driving it so I sold it and went back to driving a GTO. I have never looked back.
I have seen 2 Vettes in the Phx area over the years with Pontiacs in them. I have also seen 2 or 3 magazine aticles over the years with Pontiacs in Vettes. One was a '62, the other was a mid year with a '63 421 SD and 4 spd. It ran 11's in the 60's. Certainly not a slouch.
I say go for it and do it. I'll save you a parking space for next years Pontiac Heaven IX.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[JSAauto]

455Dave....

Doing the Banchee clone thing would be a hoot just for the historical point of it. It would be like owning a 69 ZL1 clone or something. If you copyed it well enough, you'd have people at Pontiac shows freaking out walking up to the car. The reaction would be similar to someone seeing the old Mackellers 64 SOHC 421 GP!! :eek:

Is the Vette a SB or BB??

A.S. The points you make about NHRA stock events are moot because GM didn't allow Pontiac to be competitive. How many RA5 455s were produced? GM let chevy do what they wanted and held the others back. So much for you trying to keep things "apples to apples" when your not allowed get pick your own apple. You have to use the one "they" say you are allowed to use. That is B.S. in my book.

Don't start whining Mo... it's un-becoming of you. Sucks working for somebody huh??

Oh yeah!! A R.A. 455 with that big pushrod tube right in the middle... I'm sure that would have really been competitive :rolleyes: Please....

Didn't you ever wonder why it so hard to get a forged crank for a pontiac? Did you really?

I'm sure it's a conspiracy theory. Let me guess..... Did the martians have anything to do with it??

The fact is cheby was scared of Pontiac in the early sixties and made every effort to keep them from being competitve.

Again... sucks working for "da-man".

I am thankful that there were as many Hard Core Pontiac guys out there to pave the way for the rest of us REAL Pontiac guys. If not I'd probably drive an AMC..NOT!

To be a "real" Pontiac guy you've got to own an ORIGINAL copy of Pete McCarthys "Pontiac Musclecar Performance 1955-1979". If you don't, you can't be part of the "real Pontiac guy club". ;)

And before you go making more blanketed silly statements. AMC wasn't anything to laugh at either. Remember the Drag-on lady?? Guys that met her at the starting line did. One of the baddest S.S. AMC's that ever lived.

http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/race/shahan02.jpg

http://www.draglist.com/Pictures/POD-May-2002/POD-051002.htm

I hope you realize I'm just ribbing you to get a reaction right?? :D

Hey Todd....
I for some reason thought you were John Langer because of Mo's comment, "John Langer wins again". So some of the stuff I posted might have been confusing and was directed thinking you were Langer.

Sounds like you've got a cool ride though.

The dude with the BBC that couldn't get into the 10's has a serious problem with his set up. Bowtie heads out of the box are capable of 340+ cfm's and we've modified them to 400 cfm. My Camaro (3560 lbs) with an all iron 468 and a roller cam ran 10.32, and it was only 11.6 to 1 and a 3500 stall. And I drove my car to the track!!

It's good to see you're keeping the Pontiac faith alive and well!!

Peace to you.

Hey Steve....
Hopefully next year me and Hary K will make it out to your show. I've still got a 69 Bird thats 1/2 way finished. Been sitting on the rack in my shop now for 5 years. 455 HO motor w/ S.D. rods... at least 15K invested in just parts..... all the best stuff. Just sooooo many projects that I have to finish and trying to keep up with the constant work flow. I can't complain... we're very busy. But it would be nice to take the Bird back out again and do some terrorising.

[455Dave]

John,

It's SBC, I had one 69 427 car and it handled a lot worse than the SBCs I've owned, never wanted one again. I'm trying to get a permit to put a detached garage out back. Once it goes up the vette goes in and will sit until I figure out what to do with it. I've got a 71 Formula that needs a resto and will probably pick up a 71 bird before the garage is built. The current argument here is which car get's done first. ;)

[Donovan]

Hijack!

I'm curious. What are the brakes like on a C3 Vette? Are they any good?

[JSAauto]

They're good. But the C4 and C5 stuff is even better. You lookin to do a swap or something on a car?

[Donovan]

I have C5 parts but don't want to convert the rims to a size that will hold them just yet. Considering "JL8" conversion. Parts are very plentiful, good rebuilds are common as are good pads.

[455_PWR]

Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, etc.. they are all as fast as the other, just the person who invested more and knows what they are doing will win. I'd use the 455 personally because chevy's (and fords) are like excuses EVERYONE has them so they really aren't that unique in my opinion. Oh, and Pontiac was always held back cause GM didn't want anything faster than the vette' -it would take away their sales! If chevy guys want to brag up that corporate crap...go for it... but I'll always use poncho motors.

[JSAauto]

455PWR....
You're kinda late to the (thread) game.

Your Poncho patriot partner in crime Mo already used the "Yeah, funny how the 68 vette looks alot like the 'not allowed because it will hurt corvette sales' Banshee", or "The points you make about NHRA stock events are moot because GM didn't allow Pontiac to be competitive", or "The fact is cheby was scared of Pontiac in the early sixties and made every effort to keep them from being competitve. Ban on Racing, CID limits, HP limits and so on. We have heard it over and over".

Ok... I get it already. But now you guys don't have anymore excuses with Tiger/Kaufman heads, forged cranks, and the aftermarket blocks. So stop yer whinin!! ;)

How about stickin a 3 rotor turbo wankle motor in it? That is.... if you really want to be original.

Nobody has any excuses when a Mazda engine without pistons that displaces 1.3 liters in a crappy Toyota Tercel and does a 7.4 at 180 MPH.

http://media.putfile.com/Anais740/wide

[7T2]

say js,
since you have flowed bbc stuff. what do most of the aftermarket bbc heads in the $2500-$3000 price range flow out of the box? do the figs vary much going from 4.5" bore down to 4.25"? has the issue of 12-14% flow differential between good and bad intake ports been resolved with the standard layout?
jim

[JSAauto]

7T2.... actually I personally haven't flowed the stuff I put together. I usually leave that to my guys at West Coast Cylinder Heads in Reseda, Ca (the old Hogans Heads shop). But me and Richard have been good friends for some 20 years now and I spend alot of time over there. Especially when it's my projects that are in the works.

Right now they've got a pair of those new Edelbrock 24's, and they look pretty nice. Edelbrock guarantees this head in their CNC'd version for 900 hp. Well into the 400 cfm range.

Of course bore size greatly influences how a head flows, and when you're dealing with Chevies bias towards the cylinder wall vs the center of the cylinder, bore sizing is everything. Doing anything less than .060 over on a 454, and opening the throats on a std cast iron head is a waste of time. But when this is done, the gains are huge.

The 12-14% you mention depends on core shift sometimes. But you are right. There can be quite a bit of difference between ports in a BBC. That is why you need a good head porter.

[JSAauto]

7T2....
Take a look at these. 400 cfm int, 300 cfm exh on a SMALL BLOCK.

http://www.allproheads.com/images/2005AllProCat.pdf

I love those LS motors.

[7T2]

interesting pics. things that make you go hmmm...
like the chamber design with the large relief on the longside radius. unless its a shadow- looks like the relief isnt bowl shaped- but almost a smoothed out step. certainly this serves to reduce "squish" and turbulence... but is there a hidden benefit of said step in intake port design, since the chamber is essentially an extension of the port?
about the bbc flow bias- not all can be relegated to core shift. i have a flow bench and will assert that its in the design of the heads with relation to the approach of the port to the position in chamber.
more specifically, the port which delivers the charge towards the center of the bore shows significantly better flow #'s than the port with flow centerline exiting in a trajectory towards the cylinder wall...
case studies are of an edelbrock rpm cyl head, and a factory square port open chamber "70 hi perf example. both show similar delta % flow shifts.
subsequent to this- i wonder if the delta flow factor will precipitate a corresponding offset in egt's on the dyno?
can also test this on my land and sea 1600.
jim

[JSAauto]

7T2....

I would assume the chamber design for ProHeads LSx heads are to increase air flow of the intake valve and swirl to a degree. The small split between the chamber at the spark plug also helps in "shearing" which helps with atomization.

Squish I don't think is a problem either with a 50cc chamber. With the right mirror image piston, you could easily get 14:1 compression. Turbulence in the bore can be effected by a various number of reasons, one being chamber or piston head design. Since these motors are mostly fuel injected, the injector spray pattern on the newer LS7's are pointed right at the spark plug when the intake valve open. I don't think you could get better fuel/cylinder filling or fuel suspension than that. But then there's always direct injection like the current electronically injected diesels have.

Not sure the point your trying to make about the difference in flow between ports as this has been common knowledge for quite sometime about the Chevy BB. But it's more than workable with good porting knowledge.

Take a look at the new Victor 24's from Edelbrock. Richard has one on the flow bench as we speak and they are working out new CNC ports for them. Pretty impressive for an "out of the box" cylinder head huh??

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/heads/chevrolet_bb_victor.shtml

Of course the cylinder charge will affect peak and average combustion temps. Just as cam profiles would (again... affecting cylinder charge). But again... can be massaged by working and balancing the ports as best as possible. Just like the NASCAR guys, they treat an 8 cylinder engine as 8 one cylinder engines. I would assume that anybody trying to achieve max perf from any combination would lean towards this methodology.

[7T2]

the point about the flow was a question as to if you had seen this personally and if the aftermarket had corrected for it, if so- as to advise my bbc friend how to correct this.
btw... how much do those 24's cost assembled anyway? what kind of gains in flow with cnc?
jim

[mtnxtreme1963]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I saw an old vette I think 66 on Pinks a couple of weeks ago, it had a Pontiac motor in it and spanked the hell out of a BB Nova every time.

[7T2]

sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!
there will be more of that where that came from young man!

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

I just seen this post!!! I will post pics of our 1978 Stingray with a Pontiac in it!!! :-) Yes it's true it has been my lil secret project!!! All I need is headers!!!! Oh yeah!!! It is also Four Linked!! Yes this Corvette is expected to run in the 8's EASY!! I will take some pics this weekend!! Oh yeah this car actualy has a killer paint job. Not like my 75 TA!!
Be Cool,
Ace

[JSAauto]

WHY KEN WHY WHY WHY WHY!!!??? AAAAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAA (crying) haahahahahahahahahahhhaaaaaaa... :smash:

That's sacralidge!!!!

Hee-hee.... I'm kidding. I'm sure anything you put together will be sweet. Please post some pics for us Ken.

Mtnxtreme63... I think someone did mention it. I just recently got turned onto Pinks and that show can be good and other times ok. Just saw a Honda get placed against a Mustang with a Chevy SB in it. Didn't seem like a fair fight because of how much faster the Stang was. Saw a REALLY NICE Nova race a junkyard dog (I think another chevy). The Nova got his arse kicked. Of course it's such an apples and oranges deal sometimes that it's rediculous. From there it boils down to how much someone can sandbag or make it look like their car is slower. It's sensationalism at best.

the point about the flow was a question as to if you had seen this personally and if the aftermarket had corrected for it, if so- as to advise my bbc friend how to correct this.

When I was having work done on my iron stuff years ago, there was much in the way of "work" done to the ports to equalize them. And then again with many other projects that have left our doors...... it really isn't an issue for us, as were more concerned with port volume vs. raw airflow potential unlike the Pontiac stuff where were always trying to get the airflow.

btw... how much do those 24's cost assembled anyway? what kind of gains in flow with cnc?

Not sure what they cost... which is why I posted the Edelbrock link. Maybe a search on Jegs?? I was told the 24's are new from Edelbrock. Waiting to see what gains Rich is going to see from these as I have a cust wanting to build a big inch N/A BBC for the street. I'm sure Edelbrock knows what they're saying when they say...

"The only out-of-the-box [CNC ported version] head on the market capable of 950+ horsepower from a conventional port location big-block head "

"340cc intake ports flow 390 cfm [unported "as casted" versions], producing a higher velocity flow for improved throttle response"

[lunaticeh]

Hey guys, thought I'd wander into the purists vs. the others debate. Purists like to only see Pontiac's in Pontiac's,which I have no problem with. The others like to experiment and do engine swaps and stuff. Isn't that what hot rodding is about? I feel that as long as you stay within the corperation, why not do it. At one point in time GM was lucky enough to have multiple divisions producing cars, all with their strong points. What's wrong with taking something from one division and adding it to another if the owner/builder will be happy with the end result? Example.. every Chev I've owned, has gotten Pontiac seats to do the better design, ergonimics, and comfort of them (82-92 F-bodies). Do Ford guys get bent out of shape when Lincoln and Merc guys start swapping flatheads, 302's, and the like? What about the Mopar guys when Hemi's go in Dodges's, Chrysler's, Plymouth's, Fargo's, and other Pentastar offshoots? Now at the risk of upsetting the purists, I'm putting a SBC in my 50. Would I like a Pontiac in it? Of course I would, except for the fact there's an allready built 406 on my garage floor waiting for a home so why not. I've played with sprint cars all my life, and have seen some very respectable numbers made on the dyno. So for me SBC's are familier territory, and maybe someday I will put a big inch Poncho in it.... or maybe I'll just build the big inch SB Donovan I've been craving... However it ends up, it'll be something I'll be happy with. I'm the one who has to drive it anyways, not everybody else... so I'll build it how I want... not how you want. Everything in good humor right guys.. That's my $0.02...

[Bad Karma]

Cant we all just get along?

[Jack Gifford]

I think we all do get along- simply a friendly, never-ending Pontiac/Chevy rivalry.

[Razorhorn]

I just seen this post!!! I will post pics of our 1978 Stingray with a Pontiac in it!!!

A 455 in a Vette is unique by itself. But if you have a 78 Stingray I absolutely can't wait to see the pic's!

[big_gto]

The NHRA rulebook is written with the Big 3 in mind. All others are at a disadvantage.
A gloried good old boys club.

[4dblnkldude]

I've never seen this personally, but its a great idea. I love chevy's but not as much as pontiacs and I am sick of seeing them in Pontiacs.