Grand National 3.8 in an 80 T/A

[LarryHicks]

My son & I are getting ready to swap a 3.8 turbo motor into his T/A. Anyone else seen this done? I'm just wondering how much exhaust fabrication we're getting into to miss the heater/evap case etc. Any info is appreciated. Thanks

[Cammer-6]

Well they did it at the factory in the 3 rd gen(1989).
Was yours a turbo 4.9?

[LarryHicks]

No, it was a 400 & TH400-going to the 3.8 with a 700R4

[red76TA]

i thought BOP's used a 200r4, correct me if i'm wrong
with a 200 i think the trans will fit just fine, that'd be a pretty neat car i like the idea

[Formula8]

I believe the F-body came with a 3.8 Buick motor in the late seventies so mounts etc should be available. Adapters are available to use the 700 bolt pattern although the 200R4 would probably be preferred in this installation. You will only have to deal with the down pipe for an exhaust so that should not present much of a problem. Sounds like a neat swap. You can get FI, a turbo and OD all in one package.

[LarryHicks]

I was told it's a 700r4-I'm unfortunately woefully ignorant of anything new that isn't Ford (I'm a dealership tech for Lincoln) My last ride was a 64GTO with a 427 & Powerglide(10.19 at 137)then a 65 chevy PU with an olds 455 (12.08 at 109) So, if you can tell me how to tell a 700 from a 200 then I'll know. Thanks, Larry

[2manyT/A'S]

That WILL be an interesting swap.
If you are planning on making it look/work "stock",I have a fan shroud from a 79 base Bird that came with a Buick V6.
It's substantially LONGER than the V8 one in those years & will be a tough one to find.
PM me if interested.

[superdutybob]

Buicks used the 2004R transmission behind the 3.8L Turbo. It has the same bolt pattern as your typical Pontiac, Olds, Buick engine. The 700R4 is a Chevy bolt pattern and would require an adapter to mount to the 3.8L.

[LarryHicks]

The trans I have is a dual bolt pattern-has chevy & BOP-has a vacuum hose connection on top, rectangular pan with a corner chopped off. Soon I'll have to research it, cuz the the 400 & TH400 are coming out tomorrow. L

[LarryHicks]

Thanks for the offer of the fan shroud. We are going electric & I think that the intercooler will mount somewhere up there also. L

[zbuickman]

There should be almost no exhaust fab except the down pipe. you want the 200r4 it has a higer first gear that this motor likes. it also has a 3rd and a 4th gear sw. these switches are used by the ECM for timing and boost. they are a must if your going to play with this. Also the only 200 trannys that have thes swithcs in them are the 86-7 BRF and the 84-5 BRQ valve bodyes Also these two trannys have specific govoners. The only other gov. worth a crapp is the monte SS one(but you still need the above valve bodys.)if you are set on a different tranny Reprogramming is a necessity. there are also good things in using a reprogramed L67 pcm w/ trac control and torque man with a 60E tranny. Also you will be happiest with a 3:73 rear up untill @350 rwhp range and a 3:42 above that What are your specific goals???:)

[LarryHicks]

Thanks for all of the info Brent! My goals are to build a pretty quick, neat, reliable street car with my 17 year old son for him to drive everyday and me to steal occasionally. Since a friend of mine had a 87 GN that went mid 12's with just a chip & slicks I was hoping for somewhere in the 13's. Probably too fast for a 1st car, but much slower than he wants (of course). I plan on putting a 3.73 gear in it since the od trans will make up a little on the highway. I have 2 3.8 motors-one out of a front wheel drive & one t-type that has the hooker headers, supposedly good heads, supposedly good cam,etc. I haven't talked him (the guy I bought the t-type motor from) out of the big turbo & intercooler yet, but he's moving soon, so I have high hopes. The t-type motor has a lower end knock, so I thought I would put the good heads on the fwd motor with the small turbo & stock cam to start with. I have the whole pcm set up with a 3 position selector switch for boost/rpm control, also the high flow injectors. (he told me what lb/hr they were,but I can't remember) Any advice is welcome since this is my 1st turbo experience. If you want to e-mail me direct the address is [email protected] I looked closer at the trans the pan is rectangular with both the rear corners chopped off, one (right I think) more than the other.

[zbuickman]

pull the pan on the T-motor the part# on this block should end with 109. The fwd motor is not much use to you. different animal. The 109 block will have a rolled fillet crank better rods and turbo specific pistons and rings and head gaskets?? Dont use N/A gaskets Ohh this will get way to long.. Just rebuid the t motor if nothing rebearing and clean up the crank and reasemble the bottom end Here are some places to look at.

for general information
www.gnttype.org

for a VERY helpfull forum not full of rambuncios kids.
www.t6p.com <---- I highly recomend

heres a poular site that alot of people visit
www.turbobuick.com
there are others but these two will cover any questions you will have. dont be afraid to ask they will answer you i am at t6p daily. p.s. it will be to fast for a begining driver. mine will break the rear loose at will up to 40 mph. and mines NOT as modified as the motor you described.:)

[speedshopmike]

BRENT IS CORRECT, YOU DON'T WANT THE FWD MOTOR.
AMONG VARIOUS OTHER THINGS, THE CR IS TOO HIGH, AND THE MOTOR MOUNTS ARE DIFFERENT.
oops, sorry on caps lock, dont wanna retype it all!
good luck; this will make a killer handling package due to the light front end, and will be too fast for a new driver even with a second gen's pork to pull along.
fyi, a 700 tranny has a square pan.
a 200 has a weird looking one kinda shaped like a mountain....sounds like what you have.

[ngc414]

How is the swap going?

I have been thinking of doing the same thing to my 81TA, but didt think it would be possible until I read this post.

[LarryHicks]

Well, we postponed the 3.8 swap because the engine we got is hurt worse than we thought & we wanted it to get on the road asap. Factory 3.8 mounts for the 81 are available & there seems to be plenty of room, just basic fabrication of exhaust which isn't too bad since there is only 1 3" outlet pipe.

[GeeForce GN Bird]

I just heard about this forum and that this thread was up...

I'm in the process of doing this very swap right now as we speak. It will be my second time... first was in a '74 Camaro. Intercooled V6 with a 200R4 out of a GN...

This time the Turbo Six is going into a '79 Firebird. the mounts are easy... it's already a factory 231 V6 car/ 3spd manual car. I'll keep the clutch pedal and switch to a 4spd for now.

[GeeForce GN Bird]

I just heard about this forum and that this thread was up...

I'm in the process of doing this very swap right now as we speak. It will be my second time... first was in a '74 Camaro. Intercooled V6 with a 200R4 out of a GN...

This time the Turbo Six is going into a '79 Firebird. the mounts are easy... it's already a factory 231 V6 car/ 3spd manual car. I'll keep the clutch pedal and switch to a 4spd for now.

Planning on making the Hot Rod Power tour with it... it ought to be a great cruiser!!!

[ngc414]

I was looking at grand nationals for the past few weeks and missed out on a pretty good deal on a clean 87. The 3.8 turbo is something different with alot of potential. I figured it would be nice to get the best of both worlds and drop one in my 81 TA rather than buy a grand national. I was originally looking to put the car back to the 301 turbo, but that motor seems to have less potential compaired to the 3.8 turbo engines. This way its still a "turbo trans am" also.

[speedshopmike]

turbo up a 400 or 455!

[LarryHicks]

After I win the lottery!:)

[Overkillphil]

The trans you described as being the one you are planning to use sounds like a turbo 250 or 350. The 200-4R does not have a vacuum connection on the trans (uses a TV cable for everything) and the pan is not square with a corner cut off. That pan describes precisely what is on the 250-350 trans. Some of those are also dual flange bellhousings just like the 200-4R. The 81 T/A's came with Turbo 200's (3 speed), also with a similiar pan to yours, however they were not vacuum either.

You definately want the 200-4R to make your Turbo Buick engine put a smile on your face. Great combo, and real cool swap in a fine car like a 2nd gen bird. Don't forget to change the gears to 3.42 or so, if so equipped with 2.73's or 3.08's.

[LarryHicks]

Thanks Phil. (Or should I call you Over?) What I thought was a vac tube was the vent (duh). It is a 200R4, which is the trans I got with the turbo motor set up. I found a really cheap 4.11 complete diff, so that is what the car has in it now, even though it's a pretty steep gear for a street car. Will be fun light to light though! Larry

[rawkroller]

Turbo up a 400 or 455? Thats what I was thinking is it possible to keep my turbo set up but replace the 4.9 with a poncho 350 that would be cool!!
Would it work to swap the engines and keep everything else the same?

[bastard]

Turbo up a 400 or 455? Thats what I was thinking is it possible to keep my turbo set up but replace the 4.9 with a poncho 350 that would be cool!!
Would it work to swap the engines and keep everything else the same?
No.
For more elaboration on my response, please see your original thread.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519336

[6704gto]

didnt the 3.8 come in the pace car for that one year.i think it was 89

[WarbirdTA]

Yes,
But it used different heads, and crossdrilled crank, and some GNX parts.
And no governor to limit the speed.
It was in the 1989 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am.
1550 made, and 5 Pilot cars that slipped through, with a total of 1555 made.

George :cool: