Update of Beswick 69 Righteous Judge

[Paul Spotts]

Here are some pics of the Righteous Judge motor. For those unsure - the intake is a reproduction of the 1963 Pontiac SD "bathtub" intake. Block is a 69 428 with "stealth" heads. Carbs will be Holley 660's like Arnie ran in 69.

The car is completed from Chassis Engineering and is at John and Jackie's shop (John Kane restoration) getting final body work and paint.

Was hoping the car would be ready for Virginia event, but not enough time to make that event.

[Brian Baker]

Paul, there's a second car? Or is this going under the one-piece 'glass body from VFN? I'm guessing there are two cars, the Righteous and the Super that are going to be built?

[Old Man Taylor]

Nice job on the "722".

[65nss4spdGTO]

Paul,

That engine looks great, can't wait to see it out.

[Brian Baker]

Nice job on the "722".
Yea...where'd you get those '69 R.A. IV heads with angled plugs?;)

[pont406]

Paul ,is this a replica of Arnie's Pro Stocker, or the real deal?

[Paul Spotts]

There are 2 cars being built. First is the Righteous Judge. It is a 69 Judge that was in between the 2 super Judges of 69. Its a tilt glass front end on steel body. It was first ran as a Ram4 then a Ram5. I'm building close to the Ram4 type engine. Arnie ran the bathtub intake.

The second car being built is the 68 GTO funny car - not the Super Judge
That will be the blown 505. May not see that till the end of the year - if that. This was all discussed on another thread.

click here for more info:

http://www.johnkanerestorations.com/Race_Car_Projects.php

Glad you guys liked the heads - I couldn't use the Ram4 heads since the lower end was already built with domed pistons for E heads. The car is not being built to exact specs, it is being built to race.

[Paul Spotts]

Pont406 - both cars are replicas - originals are gone from what I was told.

[pont406]

The Bathtub intake, is that one of the ones made to fit the 65 and up heads? weren't there 2 different version of this intake repo'ed ? early heads/late Heads.

[HotCat_63]

FYI to everyone, a friend of mine owns the original 70 Knafel Judge here in Illinois it's amazing has RamAir V shortblock with Very special RamAir IV heads they were cast specially from the factory with angled spark plugs!

Go check out this months Pontiac high performance theres a feature on this car.

[Half-Inch Stud]

It's got Spotts all over it!

[WDCreech]

Yea...where'd you get those '69 R.A. IV heads with angled plugs?;)

Brian, If you zoom in on the first picture and look at the number 4 sparkplug hole, you'll see that these are aluminum. I think that they're Edelbrocks with the 722 welded on the end exhaust.

[tom s]

that is a Randy Williams repop bathtub for the late heads.Tom

[Brian Baker]

Brian, If you zoom in on the first picture and look at the number 4 sparkplug hole, you'll see that these are aluminum. I think that they're Edelbrocks with the 722 welded on the end exhaust.
I know, Bill...that's why I put the little winkie guy on the end of my question. Lil' Jack did the same thing with his Edelbrocks in his GTO, but he put a different casting on them (66 I think). You can do "wonders" with JB Weld.

[Tom Vaught]

I wonder who gave them the runner design for the 2nd generation repop Bath Tub intake manifolds? LOL! Joe Zajac knows that answer.

Tom V.

[7secjudge]

Paul, there's a second car? Or is this going under the one-piece 'glass body from VFN? I'm guessing there are two cars, the Righteous and the Super that are going to be built?

if theres a 69 gto body in fiberglass made by vfn i would like to see pictures
i run a fiberglass company on the west coast and i have all body parts in glass except a body please fill me in on any info as im getting ready to build a new chassis to run prostreet in psca ...
Ron

[60man]

that is a Randy Williams repop bathtub for the late heads.Tom

Really !! Did not know they were repopped in late head pattern....learn something everyday...makes sense to me..;)
How many intakes did Randy Williams repop ??
Guess Joe and you would know that to....:)

[60man]

if theres a 69 gto body in fiberglass made by vfn i would like to see pictures
i run a fiberglass company on the west coast and i have all body parts in glass except a body please fill me in on any info as im getting ready to build a new chassis to run prostreet in psca ...
Ron


First post?.....Welcome to the board.....
Does your company make any parts for a 60 ??:D :D

[7secjudge]

i make any and all parts for pontiacs if i dont have it i will make it so long as i have a good part to pull a mold off of

Ron my 69 gto is all fiberglass expet the body hood, front clip, doors and trunk.

[Brian Baker]

if theres a 69 gto body in fiberglass made by vfn i would like to see pictures
i run a fiberglass company on the west coast and i have all body parts in glass except a body please fill me in on any info as im getting ready to build a new chassis to run prostreet in psca ...
Ron
Welcome aboard, Ron!

Here's a shot of THE body that VFN made for Arnie's recreation, taken at a show in the midwest this past winter. I think they have pictures on their website as well.

[Brian Baker]

Troy...it's my understanding that Randy's wife still has those intake molds.

[tom s]

Troy,he made a 1/2 dz or so.I tested a couple diff designs on the dyno for him against a Wenzler intake on a 462 motor.All 3 intakes were within 5HP of each other.Randy did not want to make anymore before he died.I tried to buy-borrow the molds to make a couple but he had no interest.Not sure if they will ever be used.I heard a rumer a year ago or so that someone besides me wanted to try and repop them.When I looked into it,it did not pencel out unless you could take it to China.I gave up and just made my own.Tom

[Johnny406]

I can't wait to see how this all comes out.

[7secjudge]

Welcome aboard, Ron!

Here's a shot of THE body that VFN made for Arnie's recreation, taken at a show in the midwest this past winter. I think they have pictures on their website as well.

now is that a scaled down version or is it full size copy of the 69 and is it a funny car body im only interested in the body from the fire wall back looks to me its only availible as a complete body

im currently building a 25.2 double frame rail chassis and with a BAE 526 kabelco blown bbc
i would seriously be interesting if this body is a race version will have to get intouch with vfn.
thanks for your info brian

Ron

[7secjudge]

i was just on vfn's site the body is there however it's 68 body not a 69, it's different on the back bumper not that it can't be modified but its for a 125" wheel base that means its a funny car and a funny car body is narrower then stock body won't work for my application looks like i'm going to be building a fullsize stock body mold for myself.
im looking for something in the pro modified pro street style...

thanks for the info brian

Ron

[johnta1]

Doesn't SweetJudge have a fiberglass GTO body?

[johnta1]

I know, Bill...that's why I put the little winkie guy on the end of my question. Lil' Jack did the same thing with his Edelbrocks in his GTO, but he put a different casting on them (66 I think). You can do "wonders" with JB Weld.

Is this the one in HPP?

If so, it said the heads were developed by Warren Brownfield at AFR and used the angled sparkplugs.
This was back in 69/70.
The pic in the mag, you can tell it's not an Edelbrock.

[Tom Vaught]

Warren Brownfield and Diamond Racing (two different race shops) were the two big Ram Air 4 head gurus in the 60s/early 70s. Nunzi did not do just heads.

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

now is that a scaled down version or is it full size copy of the 69 and is it a funny car body im only interested in the body from the fire wall back looks to me its only availible as a complete body

im currently building a 25.2 double frame rail chassis and with a BAE 526 kabelco blown bbc
i would seriously be interesting if this body is a race version will have to get intouch with vfn.
thanks for your info brian

Ron
It's a full scale 1-piece flopper body with a stretched nose. Contact VFN for what you're looking for. They make it for Chevelles of around '66 vintage and I think Pontiacs too (think Arnie's current Tameless Tiger that he match races).

[Brian Baker]

Is this the one in HPP?

If so, it said the heads were developed by Warren Brownfield at AFR and used the angled sparkplugs.
This was back in 69/70.
The pic in the mag, you can tell it's not an Edelbrock.
I'm speaking of Jack Pumphrey's red '65 GTO that is responsible for Lil' Jack sometimes being called "Wheelie Boy". It has Edelbrock heads that have been "disguised" with JB Weld.

The car in HPP is not Lil' Jack's car...I haven't seen it yet but am looking forward to it.

[shotgun]

Look what arrived today!

Car turned out awesome.

We are making a punch list and will start right away.

Here are a couple teaser pics, enjoy!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/287494320208_0_BG1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/297494320208_0_BG1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/487494320208_0_BG1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/497494320208_0_BG1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/697494320208_0_ALB1.jpg

[Ron H]

Looks great ! How much does it weight?

[Wareagle]

Congrats--great pics Shotgun.

[estep455]

that is sweet!

[dutch injun]

Oh my god that is beautiful.

[GTOLIB]

that is sharp ,so nice , have to see in person

" Doesn't SweetJudge have a fiberglass GTO body?"
SWEETJUDGE does have whole fireglass body pm him see if he still has it

[shotgun]

Can't give an idea of weight,the car has no drivetrain,fuel system,wiring etc.

Mocked up the engine today. http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/629286420208_0_BG1.jpg

AllPontiac plate fits great. http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/139286420208_0_BG1.jpg

Engine in chassis for the first time.http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/429286420208_0_BG1.jpg

[Ron H]

That is gonna rock. Great job so far.

[Wareagle]

Wow--looking good--sweet looking Pontiac engine.

[SWEETJUDGE]

I HAVE A FULL GLASS BODIED 69 GTO FOR SALE......body only RACE light weight

[SWEETJUDGE]

I HAVE ALL OF BESWICKS GRAPHICS............contact me if you need

[SWEETJUDGE]

i contacted beswick a long time ago & he gave me a hard time about reproducing his car.....did you get any flack???????? or maybe i caught him on a bad day.

PAINT LOOKS AWSOME who did the lines on hood?????

SWEET car....you beat me to this project

[Paul Spotts]

owners of Righteous Judge:

http://www.indiantrailclassicsllc.com/

[SupergasDil]

That looks very nice.

[afx421]

wow! looks awesome! im sure arnie would definatly approve.

[SWEETJUDGE]

I had to look again .......... IM SOOOO IMPRESSED!!!!!!!!

[SWEETJUDGE]

NOW YOU NEED THE SUPER JUDGE JACKET

[Paul Spotts]

we are thrashing to have it ready for Norwalk - have lots to do. Been talking to Arnie every other day on details.

more pics posted soon.

[Brian Baker]

Great looking ride, but I was hoping it was going to be more period correct looking as far as chassis, stance, and rear slick size were concerned.

[SWEETJUDGE]

This is such a killer stance im sure gonna hate myself for selling

FOR SALE.....

i can be reached at 203.414.5327 or jerrysprinting@aol.com

[that guy]

your car looks great! but i think the heads are KRE HIGH PORTS that someone got the grinder out and cobbed up.kinda like the other set on the board where they ground off kre and punched in spotts. he probably thought of the high port idea way before anyone else and thought he deserved some credit so he put his name on them but who wouldnt.:fear:

[Mo]

your car looks great! but i think the heads are KRE HIGH PORTS that someone got the grinder out and cobbed up.kinda like the other set on the board where they ground off kre and punched in spotts. he probably thought of the high port idea way before anyone else and thought he deserved some credit so he put his name on them but who wouldnt.:fear:

Definitely NOT HPs as the "built in" intake spacer would be a dead give away.

Paul does high quality head work. He deserves to take credit, and is responsible for, the work that leaves his shop! Think of it as the SPOTTS stamp of aproval.


Anyone else notice the stock front frame rails? Just needs some lights and it can run OUTLAW 10.5. 2000hp wouldn't hurt either.

[Brian Baker]

your car looks great! but i think the heads are KRE HIGH PORTS that someone got the grinder out and cobbed up.kinda like the other set on the board where they ground off kre and punched in spotts. he probably thought of the high port idea way before anyone else and thought he deserved some credit so he put his name on them but who wouldnt.:fear:
Funny...I don't see Arnie knocking on KRE's door for help with anything.:blabla:

[Region Warrior]

Funny...I don't see Arnie knocking on KRE's door for help with anything.:blabla:

Ya, Arnie's more like a minimum Tiger Head level.

[ErikW]

your car looks great! but i think the heads are KRE HIGH PORTS that someone got the grinder out and cobbed up.kinda like the other set on the board where they ground off kre and punched in spotts. he probably thought of the high port idea way before anyone else and thought he deserved some credit so he put his name on them but who wouldnt.

E-Heads for sure. No raised intake like Mo said and too many bolt holes in the end of the head. I think they did a great job with the RA IV casting numbers. Great job Spotty!

[Jagtec1]

I will be going up to the shop Friday night to lend a hand to Bob from Casual Restorations and Paul. Can't wait to check it out in person. The final adjustments to the mid-plate were being made tonight to drop the motor in. It'll be a nice change to work on something like this project, as opposed to the same stinkin' Jags day in and day out.

[shotgun]

Plates done,only took 'til midnight!
That's my fault,we wanted to contour the top to match the Super Bell and then added a brushed finish.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/platerear.jpg



http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Plateps.jpg



http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/plateds.jpg

[that guy]

my bad those are e heads ,:confused2 couldnt see in the other photos. with the good photo edelbrock was clearly visible. i havent seen arnies car in a couple years but didnt it have a bbc in it no need to knock iguess

[SWEETJUDGE]

FYI... BESWICK RUNS BIG CHIEF HEADED BIG BLOCK CHEVIES...............

SORRY

[SHAWN MILLER]

The car was assembled and painted along with hours apon hours of fab work by John Kane of Indian Trail Classics-John Kane restorations.The Graphics were produced and installed by Custom Concepts -myself and my partner Tom Evans.We are out of Frostburg Md and both run in the Outlaw Pontiac Drag series.We have been involved in a few projects with John Kane and Jackie Hunter.They are great people and turn out awesome work.We worked on the Big Iron 70 Judge that will be featured in Pontiac Enthusiast Magazine soon as well.We are a full service sign and graphics company-check out our website for more information at www.customconceptsllc.com My Trans Am is also Spotts powered-463--6x heads ,pump gas motor 10.82.I am sure that thing is going to fly!!!!Cant wait to see it in action.BTW-those are my Ansen skinny slots on the frt.of that car but are just on loan but they are period correct and COOL!
Shawn Miller

[Goathead]

Plates done,only took 'til midnight!
That's my fault,we wanted to contour the top to match the Super Bell and then added a brushed finish.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/platerear.jpg



http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Plateps.jpg



http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/plateds.jpg

OK, where is my clone of that mid plate....I'm waithing...looks wesome..:D

[mwritter]

Hmm...that looks like the kickout Canton pan that I swapped Paul for a roadrace model. That would be pretty cool if something from my GTO ended up on the Bestwick Judge!

[shotgun]

Never liked sticking a connector threw a radiator to mount a fan,so I made my own out of aluminum.

The mounting hole are only a little off from the radiator holes so it almost looks like it was designed that way.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/fands.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Fanabove.jpg

While I was a widdlin',made some front plate spacers also.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/spacermount.jpg


Spotty is coming over to mount some gauges and we made a aluminum panel for the ignition and relays.

Will post some pics later.

[Jagtec1]

Bob, lookin good!

Call me if you'd like extra hands.

[johnta1]

Might keep an eye on the fan when you get it running. You'd be surprised how much it'll flex and possibly get into the radiator.

[ErikW]

Might keep an eye on the fan when you get it running. You'd be surprised how much it'll flex and possibly get into the radiator.

Might want to adhere some rubber to the face of the fan's shroud where it could rub on the fins.

[shotgun]

The top is secure to the radiator and the bottom already has foam tape to keep out of the fins.

[Brian Baker]

Will the one fan be enough? I tried the same on the Discomobile and it wasn't...had to go to two smaller fans that covered more surface area of the radiator.

[ErikW]

Looks like that setup will be more than enough. I think the airflow under that front end is probably a little better than the discomobile. A lot more room for the hot air to escape. Plus it's a race only aplication. Did you have your problems at the track only or on the street? I guess they'll find out.

[Brian Baker]

Mine was race only as well at that point, Erik. With the one fan, it would go to 200 degrees just idling in the garage. Replaced it with two and at Norwalk, in the staging lanes with 90 degree heat, it would idle at 170.

[shotgun]

We should heed Brian's advice,he IS the expert on moving hot air!;)

[Brian Baker]

We should heed Brian's advice,he IS the expert on moving hot air!;)
Now, Bob...that wasn't nice!:D

[shotgun]

Ok Brian, your right,maybe I am a little cranky.
It's only been about 112 degress in the shop,but atleast it's humid!

[shotgun]

Some more updates.
Mocked up the following :

Fuel

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/fuel1.jpg

There will be tabs welded to the frame for the pump.The pump is almost level with the bottom of the tank and the line does not really go "up" like it looks in the pictures,funny angle.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/fuel2.jpg

Battery

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/battery.jpg

Nice of them to make the battery to match the car!

Alternator

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/alt.jpg

Put a little extra polish on Spott's bracket.Long bolts with tape are to get proper length due to motor plate.

Starting to look like something!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/mock.jpg

[ErikW]

Nice!

[Ron H]

Wow !! Really coming together. Great progress so far.

[shotgun]

Roughed up some headers


http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/281100390208_0_BG1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/971100390208_0_BG1-2.jpg

[Ron H]

You are a man with some talent Shotgun. And just enough free time !

[shotgun]

The headers had 4 different sets of hands working on them over to very long days,including the owner.

[shotgun]

That would be 2 days ,not "to".

[Paul Spotts]

some more pics

[Paul Spotts]

some more pics

NHRA certed the car yesterday - 25.2 chassis

[Region Warrior]

Never liked sticking a connector threw a radiator to mount a fan,so I made my own out of aluminum.

The mounting hole are only a little off from the radiator holes so it almost looks like it was designed that way.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/fands.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Fanabove.jpg

While I was a widdlin',made some front plate spacers also.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/spacermount.jpg


Spotty is coming over to mount some gauges and we made a aluminum panel for the ignition and relays.

Will post some pics later.

No where near your guys league, but i would use a factory style fan shroud in addition to the e-fan.
I know, over kill for just track runs,

[SWEETJUDGE]

GUYS the dash who made it????? thats incredible

[spartazoo]

Norwalk?? Running??

[Jagtec1]

The plan is to have the car at Norwalk, from what I understand.

[Brian Baker]

No where near your guys league, but i would use a factory style fan shroud in addition to the e-fan.
I know, over kill for just track runs,
How would a factory shroud benefit in this instance?

[Brian Baker]

I was thinking the same thing about the dash...pretty neat looking, with the pseudo gauges. What material is it made from?

[ErikW]

I was thinking the same thing about the dash...pretty neat looking, with the pseudo gauges. What material is it made from?
It's probably fiberglass. Not that hard to do really. My buddy Rob Shneider made the one that is in Wayne Garrison's Judge race car.

[Brian Baker]

It's probably fiberglass. Not that hard to do really. My buddy Rob Shneider made the one that is in Wayne Garrison's Judge race car.
So THAT'S what he's doing these days after the Dukes of Hazzard went off the air?;) 'Glass would be the likely candidate, but the texture and "speckle" color looks very unique.

[SHAWN MILLER]

The owner John Kane hand made the dash from foam material and had it line-x ed for textured finish also we made the "Fake " guages from an original set and then made digital prints and mounted them on aluminum blanks then glued them to the dash.The dash can be removed in minutes.
Shawn Miller

[ErikW]

Cool. I was thinking bed liner finish.

[SWEETJUDGE]

I think that would look right at home in my prostreet car........I LOVE IT!!!!

HOW MUCH TO MAKE ME ONE???????????

[Paul Spotts]

just about ready for fire up - Norwalk looks good to debute car


Sweetjudge - contact John at Indian trail for making a dash for you - his link is on a previous page

[Paul Spotts]

some more

[SWEETJUDGE]

im in love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul Spotts]

ITS ALIVE!!!!!! got it running today - hoping to shake it down Friday at the track

Thanks to everyone involved - this car was started less then a year ago.

Video'd the engine break in - will have it posted

I'd also like to apologize to any who tried to contact me in the last several monthes with no avail - I was 24/7 on this car - and there is still stuff to do.

[shotgun]

It's alive!
Spotty took a video that I will try and post tonight.

[Brian Baker]

Good work guys.

[Region Warrior]

Less then a year...wow...
Hope you can make it to Norwalk.

[shotgun]

Dam Paul,you tree'd me!

[455firebird1969]

Looks like "zolatone" piant on the dash, its water based, very durable and works great in such applications...

http://www.zolatone.com/products.html

I have put it on boats, aircraft instrument panels/interiors and I even did an entire truck once...

Nice car, the attention to detail shows some serious pride, and craftsmenship...

[pont406]

Very Nice Car!! BTW I noticed your using one of those compact "heat sink" tranny coolers, on it, Do those work well on doorslammers too? i've seen them on Rails alot, but was wondering if they'ed get enough air under a doorslammer. I was thinking of getting one for my 63 Tempest drag project.

[ErikW]

Spotty took a video that I will try and post tonight.


How about that video. We are all chomping at the bit! Great job guys!

[shotgun]

Well,shake down run went fine 9.80 @131 mph.

Cecil had 9 oil downs/stoppages, so that was all we got.

My host is down for maintenance so no video or pics.

I will try again Monday.

[Jagtec1]

Glad to hear it went down the track! I heard Cecil was a mess yesterday with a hot greasy track. A fellow Ram Racing series racer wrecked her 10.5 AMX. She's fine, car did not fare so well.

Can't wait to see the car in action!

[shotgun]

Pretesting at the "Hatfield 1/8"

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Hatfield18.jpg

Loading up for Cecil

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Loaded.jpg

Under the lights at Cecil

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/78grandam/Cecil.jpg




Sorry,still having trouble with the break in video.

Anyone want to host it?

[punisher#1]

that's a sweet ride. good luck at norwalk. wish i was going.

[Ron H]

Congrats on getting it ready. Post some vids if possible.

[Jagtec1]

Here is a pic from Cecil last weekend.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Jagtec1/righteousjudge.jpg

[shotgun]

Jagtec1, I saw that and copied it to Paul and the owners.
The guy that does the photos on GDR,does good work.

[J.C.you]

great job on the car. what is the estimated et for the car? seems like there should be enough motor to go at least low 8s.

[Brian Baker]

What happened to the thread/posts where I asked Paul Spotts if this car was a clone or the real deal, and Paul answered "I was told it was a clone"? Neither my question nor his answer are anywhere to be found on the site. How come?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=286FC4hdspQ

[LiL Jack]

Conspiracy?

[Brian Baker]

OK, I see where Paul responded to Pont406 in post #8 of this thread, but it still doesn't explain what happened to the other thread/posts.

[HotCat_63]

I heard this car was recently sold at auction, after all that work and effort why? was it intended to turn a profit from the begining. I had the opportunity to see this car at norwalk last August, the resto. and craftsmanship was bar none some of the best I've seen! It brought tall dollars at auction who has it now:confused:

[Brian Baker]

I heard this car was recently sold at auction, after all that work and effort why? was it intended to turn a profit from the begining. I had the opportunity to see this car at norwalk last August, the resto. and craftsmanship was bar none some of the best I've seen! It brought tall dollars at auction who has it now:confused:
Apparently so...sold for more than a 1/4 million dollars. I think the exact amount was around $278K.

[Brian Baker]

Pont406 - both cars are replicas - originals are gone from what I was told.
This information aside, assuming the original was released from the factory to a privateer without a VIN (yeah, right:rolleyes: ), what tangible proof is there that this body is in fact the same one used for the original Righteous Judge, and not just another LeMans body?

http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CH1007-60138

http://youtube.com/watch?v=286FC4hdspQ

[HotCat_63]

It says it will be sold with the Ram Air V long block did it in fact sell with one and was it the motor that the original car ran?

When I talked to Arnie at Norwalk he did in fact bring with him to the show and gave Paul Spotts a Ram Air V block, just a block not a long block. Arnie told me it was for another project in the works and it wasnt one of the blocks originally in the car but rather one of the high nickel content blocks from one of his funny cars.

Does anyone know about any of this???

[SHAWN MILLER]

Brian,I can assure you that was no Lemans body.I was involved in the project from early on as we did the graphics on the car and it was indeed a Judge for sure.That car was a top notch car from bumper to bumper.The selling price pretty much sums up the quality of the car and Arnies endorsement of the project.Sounds to me like you should contact Arnie or John Kane Restorations direct instead of asking questions to people that dont have the answers.Good luck with your private investigation.
Shawn Miller

[Brian Baker]

Brian,I can assure you that was no Lemans body.I was involved in the project from early on as we did the graphics on the car and it was indeed a Judge for sure.That car was a top notch car from bumper to bumper.The selling price pretty much sums up the quality of the car and Arnies endorsement of the project.Sounds to me like you should contact Arnie or John Kane Restorations direct instead of asking questions to people that dont have the answers.Good luck with your private investigation.
Shawn Miller
But was it the same Judge used for the original Righteous Judge? With purportedly no VIN, how could you be certain it was a Judge and not a LeMans or base GTO? What identifying marks did you see on the body (ie - old paint) that assured you it was the original Righteous Judge? Where are the "before" pictures? Arnie's endorsement of the project has little, if anything to do with the selling price or the quality of the restoration. I've seen examples of John Kane restorations prior to this project, and they are far from junk. Based on the advertising leading up to and during the auction, it would seem the selling price is most reflective of the cars alleged history, would it not? The involved parties haven't produced any provenance on the car, so what makes you think myself, or anyone contacting them directly would cause them to do so now? The onus is not on me to prove it isn't the real deal (who one person involved on the project stated he was told it was a clone). My questions aren't addressing the quality of the restoration, or its selling price. And how do you know that anybody reading this wouldn't have an answer?

[Jagtec1]

Brian, I do not see where it claims to be the original car. It may very well be, but the link you posted to Mecum says the original was the "basis" for this car. It does not say that IS the car, unless I'm misreading it.

BTW, why are you so interested in this after all this time?

[Brian Baker]

Brian, I do not see where it claims to be the original car. It may very well be, but the link you posted to Mecum says the original was the "basis" for this car. It does not say that IS the car, unless I'm misreading it.

http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CH1007-60138

Reread the fourth paragraph of the auction description...also click on the Mecum TV Video above the pictures and listen closely.

[Jagtec1]

Never says that it IS the car. It states that the car was found, and used as the BASIS for the project. Never said the actual car was used, or that the body was used. Am I the only one that is hearing/reading it this way?

[dancolkate]

Never says that it IS the car. It states that the car was found, and used as the BASIS for the project. Never said the actual car was used, or that the body was used. Am I the only one that is hearing/reading it this way?

The original body of the “Righteous Judge” was located and was used as the basis for the reconstruction of the legendary Beswick racecar. The idea was not to restore the car to its original “as raced” condition but rather to re-fabricate it to meet today’s strict standards for safety on the track.

If the original car was used, they would most definately have said so. Rather than use words like "basis" and "reconstruction" and "re-fabricate".

Gotta agree with Brian on this one.

[Brian Baker]

Never says that it IS the car. It states that the car was found, and used as the BASIS for the project. Never said the actual car was used, or that the body was used. Am I the only one that is hearing/reading it this way?
Yes, I see it now...had to think like a lawyer for a moment there (LOL).

"Orignal body was located...and was used as the basis for the reconstruction..."

Very clever wording that could be taken two ways, however, doesn't reconstruction imply that something was rebuilt or "made over"? If another body other than the original were used, wouldn't it be more accurate to say it was a recreation, and not a reconstruction?

[Steve Barcak]

So....based on this would we conclude that-

A. a large number of people became interested in.....
and
B. that people bid ridiculous excess amounts of money on....
and
C. somebody paid a ridiculous excessive amount of money......for a car with no history, no actual original parts...no nothing other than permission to use Beswicks name and logos?
and
D. an identical car could be built for a small fraction of what that one brought?

Hmmmm, with this, I am sure there will be more cars built for profit only, as this one was, with Mr Bs name on them?

I think someone ought to get Arnie to autograph Beswick alters. He would make a fortune selling those too, or, include an altar with each "basis" sale.


This would bring in more money to buy and develop chevy engines.

Perhaps this is already in the works.

Who was it that once said- "there is a sucker born every minute?"

On the other hand.....it is a free country and people can buy whatever they wish if their pockets are deep enough.

Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

"Real Pontiacs only....no corporate nonsense!"

[Jagtec1]

Yes, I see it now...had to think like a lawyer for a moment there (LOL).

"Orignal body was located...and was used as the basis for the reconstruction..."

Very clever wording that could be taken two ways, however, doesn't reconstruction imply that something was rebuilt or "made over"? If another body other than the original were used, wouldn't it be more accurate to say it was a recreation, and not a reconstruction?

Yes, I think it could be taken either way...just wanted you to see that it COULD be taken either way. I originally intended upon going to law school, so I read it as a lawyer. ;) Now I fix lawyers' cars.

[Brian Baker]

Yes, I think it could be taken either way...just wanted you to see that it COULD be taken either way. I originally intended upon going to law school, so I read it as a lawyer. ;) Now I fix lawyers' cars.
Yup...but still thinking like a lawyer, wouldn't "recreate" be a more accurate word to use instead of "reconstruct" if the original Righteous Judge body weren't used? And if the intention of the advertising was NOT to imply the original body was used, why place emphasis on both this car and the original not having a VIN?

[Jagtec1]

Ponder the following phrase: "After investigating and gathering evidence, the team reconstructed the crime scene". Does not mean it's the "real" original scene.

Now, this phrase: "The crew reconstructed the home following the hurricane". It is the "real" original home.

Could go either way. The words "more accurate" are tough in this situation. More accurate for which party...buyer or seller?

Should have gone to law school, I enjoy twisting intent more than repairing vehicles.

[Brian Baker]

Hello, Shawn? Still waiting on that answer. What "assurances" do you have that this car is a Judge, or the original Righteous Judge body?

[Brian Baker]

1.) Ponder the following phrase: "After investigating and gathering evidence, the team reconstructed the crime scene". Does not mean it's the "real" original scene.

2.) Now, this phrase: "The crew reconstructed the home following the hurricane". It is the "real" original home.

Could go either way. The words "more accurate" are tough in this situation. More accurate for which party...buyer or seller?

Should have gone to law school, I enjoy twisting intent more than repairing vehicles.
Hee hee hee...I'm thinking like a lawyer again, Darin.;)

I don't believe the meaning of the word "reconstruct" as used in example number 1 would apply in regards to the Righteous Judge. In this example, to "reconstruct a crime scene", we would rely on a preponderance of evidence in which to work backwards toward an origin. We have no preponderance of evidence, no provenance if you will, from which to work from, therefore, the meaning in example number 2 would apply.

As for accuracy for which party...the buyer or the seller...the onus to prove legitimacy is on the seller, not the buyer.

Here's some more to ponder:

1.) If the original body WAS located, where is it?

2.) If it's not being used, why not?

[Ron]

Lets see here.

1. Maybe/probably not the original body
2. Not the original engine
3. Not an accurate history

Why in the world would anyone pay this outrageous amount of money for this car???

[Brian Baker]

Lets see here.

1. Maybe/probably not the original body
2. Not the original engine
3. Not an accurate history

Why in the world would anyone pay this outrageous amount of money for this car?
Because they wanted it. I'm sure you've seen many a car go off the block at Barrett-Jackson for large sums of money and wondered why anyone would pay that price. I've seen #2 condition Hemi Road Runners on BJ that were numbers matching original only sell for $75-80K while just a few minutes later, a freshly "frame off" restored Hemi Road Runner CLONE would sell for nearly twice the amount. To the average enthusiast, it makes no sense.

As for the this car? Without Arnie's name on the 1/4 panels, and without any history (alleged or real), it wouldn't sell for more than $30K turn key on racingjunk or in the back of National Dragster.

[SHAWN MILLER]

Hello Brian--Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you as I do have a job and a life.I do know for a fact that that body used is a genuine Judge body.I dont have any reason to prove anything more than that to you as its not my car.Again I will direct you to the people that built the car John Kane Restorations for all of your answers.I am sure they would love to talk to you.
Shawn

[Brian Baker]

Hello Brian--Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you as I do have a job and a life.I do know for a fact that that body used is a genuine Judge body.I dont have any reason to prove anything more than that to you as its not my car.Again I will direct you to the people that built the car John Kane Restorations for all of your answers.I am sure they would love to talk to you.
Shawn
Shawn...I notice you keep insisting it's a "genuine Judge body" but not the "genuine Righteous Judge body". Shawn, how can you assure anyone of this "fact" without a VIN? That's the only true way to determine a Judge. Are you insinuating that you saw the VIN on this body (before it was removed) and compared it to PHS documentation? If so, that would make it NOT the original Righteous Judge body, since the original Righteous Judge was never issued a VIN according to Arnie.

[SHAWN MILLER]

I guess you will have to contact the new owner to find out the information you require.I am at peace with what I know.I will say we had alot of fun being involved in the project.Its cool to see your work get some ink.Alot of people dumped alot of hard hours in that car and it turned out awesome.Not only did it look great but it ran as well as it looked and I am sure there is more in that thing with some time tuning.Spotty rocks again!!
Shawn

[Jerry H.]

Not that I really care, but someone is really dodging the question.

[pont406]

Just to throw in a little Price comparision, Randy Willams 63 Tempest "drag" wagon, a Scott Tieman built car, again a "Top Notch" highly detailed race car. but with NO history. only brought 70K at auction. i heard Randy had double that in the car. so i'd imagine the supposed provenance of this car had alot to do with the price. IMO

[Brian Baker]

I guess you will have to contact the new owner to find out the information you require.I am at peace with what I know.I will say we had alot of fun being involved in the project.Its cool to see your work get some ink.Alot of people dumped alot of hard hours in that car and it turned out awesome.Not only did it look great but it ran as well as it looked and I am sure there is more in that thing with some time tuning.Spotty rocks again!!
Shawn
But, Shawn...I'm not asking the new owner...I'm not asking John Kane...I'm asking YOU. You're the one that chose to come on the board and be the apparent mouthpiece for the project. You're telling us thus far that you can't provide anything, other than your personal assurance, that this is either the original Righteous Judge body or even an original Judge. Sorry, but your "personal assurance" doesn't prove anything. What do you know exactly that you are at peace with? That you provided great product and great service for a satisfied customer, or that your product/services helped perpetrate an alleged fraud?

[LUST01]

I think the truly sad thing is that this car will probably never see a drag strip again. I can’t imagine an insurance company that would let you race a vehicle that is probably insured for more than a quarter of a million dollars. If it does see the track again, somebody out there truly has more money than brains. Paying that amount of money for a car that is worth no more than your typical supergas drag car. The quality of the restoration might add some value but not the amount the new owner paid. I also have a hard time believing the body was an original Judge body. Unless the body was a rusted out Judge shell to start with, who would trash a body that is worth more because of its pedigree to build a recreation racecar? It also makes me wonder about the people that did the restoration. There web page notes thay have restored several GTO's and Judges. Were any of these restorations rebodies with switched vin tags thus leaving a striped and gutted Judge shell to be the basis of a race car? Shawn's vagueness makes me wonder if something like this happened. There are a lot of people in this world who are at peace with themselves no mater what they do. They can sleep well at night after screwing somebody out of some money.

Matt

[SHAWN MILLER]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.I didnt build the car but was was happy to be a part of it.Brian-if you want to try to make me out to be the bad guy whatever.I was just giving you and anyone else the information of who to contact for the answers to all of these questions.I am sure you wont call them because its much easier to sit here and attempt to stir things up.Good luck with that.
Shawn

[Brian Baker]

Lust01..after reading your comments, in all fairness to Shawn, he hasn't screwed anybody out of anything. He was merely hired for a service on the car...to letter it.

Shawn...I'm not trying to make you out to be a "bad guy". What I'm trying to do is to get clarity on your "personal assurance", since you've chosen to be the apparent mouthpiece of the project. Sure, I could call John Kane and/or Arnie, but they're not going to tell me anything different from what has already been advertised, which mirrors your "personal assurance". You're saying the car is "something" but you can't prove what that "something" is anymore than anyone else can, and what we're left with is a car with a questionable racing history and no VIN, and a pretty tall story about how the original was released from GM to a privateer racer without a VIN.

[Steve Barcak]

Hey! I just got Arnie to autograph and 'endorse' the Brooklyn bridge. I have been authorized to list it on ebay.

What da' ya' think it will bid to?

Terms are cash and carry.

Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

"Real Pontiacs only...no corporate nonsense!"

[LUST01]

I know Shawn did not personally screw anyone out of money but his vagueness and his "personal assurance" hints that he knows something or someone who did the screwing. If it is something he can't say because of some type on contractual obligation, he should not even be hinting. Also if he was hired or offered a percentage of the profits do to work on a car that was knowingly to be passed off as a fake to make profit, he is just has bad as the people who did the screwing.

Matt

[Brian Baker]

OK, Shawn...how's this scenario for your "personal assurance"?

The original Righteous Judge begins life as a factory mule, or engineering car, to perform real world trials on the new R.A. IV package. As such, it has no VIN, at least not what we're used to seeing on production vehicles. Instead, its "VIN" is a plate mounted on the inside of the drivers door jamb (similar to how earlier production Pontiacs were done). The car is wrecked and suffers severe front end damage. The car is given to Arnie and after repairs are made, is transformed into the Righteous Judge.

After Arnie is finished campaigning the car, it is sold to a private party. Prior to selling the car however, the VIN plate is removed from the door jamb for whatever reason. The new owner transforms the car into a circle track racer, where it endures years of abuse. Today, nobody knows where this body is.

Fast forward to the present...a Judge is located...a bonafide Mayfair Maize '69 GTO Judge...that happens to be a Katrina flood victim. This body is used to recreate the Righteous Judge. To cover the trail however, all traces of the Mayfair Maize Judge's VIN must be eliminated, hence, the dash, firewall, and portions of the original frame are removed and replaced with custom pieces, under the reasoning that the car would be built to meet "strict, modern safety standards" instead of its original configuration. To the unknowing, this sounds reasonable, except that there is nothing in the NHRA rulebook that says you can't construct a 9 second car and retain the original chassis/frame, firewall, and dash (the car could have met modern safety standards with the only visual difference from the original being the addition of a full roll cage, window net, and a 5-point harness). The original Righteous Judge's VIN plate is fastened to the doorjamb, the only original piece left of the car, and now you have a "reconstructed original", with zero race history.

Shawn, does this scenario sound too far fetched? You tell us, after all, you gave us your "personal assurance" that you know for a fact it was a genuine Judge body that was used.

[Brian Baker]

I'm hearing crickets out of Frostburg, MD tonight.;)

[Elarson]

I have no personal knowledge, so I don't want to get involved in the questioning and debating. But re-read post #8....it seems to be pretty clear.

Eric

[Brian Baker]

Hey, Shawn...it's funny how you guys can come here and post all of the fanfare when this car debuts, yet nobody is here to defend it being a fake.

People cutting up a rare and legitimate Mayfair Maize Judge to create a "historical" race car for profit...some loyal Pontiac enthusiasts, huh?:rolleyes:

[brandon brady]

Who cares as long as the person who purchased it is happy.

[Brian Baker]

Who cares as long as the person who purchased it is happy.
The new owners happiness or lack thereof is not at question here. What's at question is the legitimacy of this car and how it has been represented.

[HotCat_63]

Great info. but as I asked before what about the fact that the auction stated it came with the ORIGINAL Ram Air V motor which the car ran after it had VI power.

ANYONE??? When I talked with Arnie at Norwalk last year he infact had with him a V block which I believe he gave to Paul Spotts for an upcoming project, I also heard a V motor was to be assembled and installed in the car just as it was in '70.

The auction states it was the ORIGINAL short block but Arnie in fact told me it was a high nickel content block from one of his funny cars.

[Brian Baker]

Great info. but as I asked before what about the fact that the auction stated it came with the ORIGINAL Ram Air V motor which the car ran after it had VI power.

ANYONE??? When I talked with Arnie at Norwalk last year he infact had with him a V block which I believe he gave to Paul Spotts for an upcoming project, I also heard a V motor was to be assembled and installed in the car just as it was in '70.

The auction states it was the ORIGINAL short block but Arnie in fact told me it was a high nickel content block from one of his funny cars.
Can't speak for the V blocks origins that was to be auctioned off with the car, but to my knowledge, there was no V block that went with the car over the auction block. Besides, I think the issue of whether or not the V block went with the car is "small potatoes" when compared to the fact the car was represented to be something it's not. I wonder what Arnie's take was on that sale for authorizing it?

[HotCat_63]

Brian Baker good question I was thinking that myself... I'm pretty good friends with Arnie so I plan on asking him just that.

Until this thread was started I never really thought about it being original or not. What I was told from the beginning was that the car was a recreation so I never questioned it.

I would have to agree the auction misrepresented the car!

[Mo]

Seems like all this talk should be in the lobby or the business section, not here! My Vote is to move it or lock it up. Thanks

[Brian Baker]

Brian Baker good question I was thinking that myself... I'm pretty good friends with Arnie so I plan on asking him just that.

Until this thread was started I never really thought about it being original or not. What I was told from the beginning was that the car was a recreation so I never questioned it.

I would have to agree the auction misrepresented the car!
I'm in the same boat, and I think many other PY regulars were (or still are) as well...Paul Spotts stated it was a clone so I never gave it another thought, not even about the selling price...I just figured that it went that high because the buyer had the means and wanted the car real bad because of who it was associated with.

It wasn't until I saw that video on youtube of the actual auction going down, and the way Arnie was talking about the car...by the way he was talking, it sounded like he was representing it as the original, and not a clone or "tribute" car. That's when my curiosity got me and I checked the auction listing on Mecum's site and found that it was being represented as being resurrected from the original body...and here we are today.

[goatless]

...and here we are today.
But where are you going with this? I would certainly hope that the buyer had some idea of what he was buying. I find it hard to believe that anyone thought it was the original car. If it were, wouldn't it have been worth more restored to it's original configuration?

I regularly see misleading statements made as a car rolls across the auction block, intentional or not. I'm sure if the buyer of this car was deceived into thinking it was something it's not then he would have some legal recourse. If he in fact knew what it was at the time then what is your point?

[Brian Baker]

But where are you going with this? I would certainly hope that the buyer had some idea of what he was buying. I find it hard to believe that anyone thought it was the original car. If it were, wouldn't it have been worth more restored to it's original configuration?

I regularly see misleading statements made as a car rolls across the auction block, intentional or not. I'm sure if the buyer of this car was deceived into thinking it was something it's not then he would have some legal recourse. If he in fact knew what it was at the time then what is your point?
Again...the buyers happiness or lack thereof, and the buyers awareness or unawareness about the authenticty of the car is immaterial to the question of how the car was represented at auction, or at any time.

[goatless]

OK, so the car was made to be more than it is as it crossed the auction block. Nobody here is arguing that point. What is it that you are going after? :confused:

[Mo]

Brian thinks there is some kind of conspiracy going on because of what is, or isn't there from the original. Fact is there wouldn't be much left from the original anyway since it was built for a certain certification. It HAD to be built that way.

How much of a 90's firebird is used in a Pro Stock car? The roof? I'm not sure but I know it isn't much. The funny thing is I look at them and think they are "real" firebirds when I see them at the track with a Pontiac under hood. I guess that isn't good enough for some people.

No way to win this "argument" since if they did cut up the original, you would be b!tcn about that too.

PS. I had about the same amount of involvement in this project as BB did. So I don't have any idea as to anything about this car, just like BB.

[Mo]

OK, so the car was made to be more than it is as it crossed the auction block. Nobody here is arguing that point. What is it that you are going after? :confused:

I think he is just pissed they didn't build it the way he would have. JMHO