need help please...350 in my 79 TA?

[davo1977]

I just bought a 79 TA with a 403 & auto. Its not enough power. I want 400-500 HP. What do I need to put in a 1980-on Chevy 350 & 700r4 transmission? I ask because I can buy a crate 350 for $3800 ready to go. I dont like to open up engines either. Also has anyone seen 2000 & later vette rims on a TA like mine?

[frans455]

A crate 350 chebby for that kind of money won't get you 400-500 hp either.
Those 403 Olds blocks are nice blocks, but require alot of money to perform in that range. My money would be on a 400-455 Pontiac - lots of torque at low rpm, right where you want it in a heavy sec gen Firebird.

[Mr. P-Body]

Davo,

I have to agree with Frans. A 350 is not going to make it in such a heavy car, either. The Pontiac is a much better suited powerplant for this car.

That being said, a 383 Chevy might provide the power you're looking for, but only a "real" one ($$$). That car weighs over 3,700 lbs., you know.

Jim

[davo1977]

I found a badass 454 & TH400 Trans today. Who knows what engine mounts I need to mount this in my 79 TA replacing the original 403? Is there any welding, or will everything bolt up? Also I need the front air dam and front wheel flares. Anyone got any?

[Mr. P-Body]

davo,

I guess you're just not going to hear anything about the Pontiac, huh? Any BBC-equipped Camaro will have the mounts and wiring you need to install the 454. You will also need new front springs from a big block Camaro, as the BBC weighs a hundred or so more pounds than the Pontiac and Olds. The TH400 will also need the wiring for the kick-down switch. Handling of the car as a "T/A" will be compromised by the increase in nose weight. Watch out for some of our 461-powered Firebirds. It takes a WHOLE BUNCH of 454 to catch them!

Jim

[triathlonx13]

ok - might have to sit down and read for a bit...

You have a lot of options for your motor and tranny. Any motor can be built to make power if the right parts are choosen, money spent wisely, and the builder is knowledgible of the motor he is building.

You have money in your car already right? You don't want to loose money on your car right? (we all don't). Stay with Pontiac motors for this reason. Putting a chevy motor in your car kills the value and if you every wanted or had to sell your car it would be harder to sell and you would get less for the car.

I understand getting a turn key motor is very desirable. You can save some money some times and you save a lot of time. (pop it in and go theory).

Check out PDUDE's (Ken Keefer). He offers some Pontiac "crate motors" which are a great deal. http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428/kensspeedandmachineshop.html or http://www.pontiacdude.cc He has a "12 second combo" for like $5,000. Pump gas and can drive it every day. He's been into F-Bodies for a long time and will be able to get a motor that will give the power in your car that you are looking for.

Understand this :) 500 hp's on the road is a lot to handle. I was into all the hype of "needing" huge horse to be happy. But if you ever been in a car with 400 horse... it can blow away most things on the street (with the coorect suspension, gear ratio, and tires). ... one of my cars (68 GTO) with 405 hps is a blast. I put basic BF Goodrich TA's on it one day. I could barely take off with our spinning the tires (remember Pontiac motors are supper torquey!) and when I jumped on the gas and shifted the four speed I laid rubber in a four gears ... and we're talking long patches in all gears! It was crasy...

TH350 is a little smaller, lighter, and takes less HPs to run then a TH400 and will more more then fine for 400-500 range. An engine builder can hep select a torque converter to match up with your gears ans cam /etc to make your car work together - thus making it fast.

Another option I would think about is the Pontiac 350 stroker "Pontiac 383". High Performance Pontiac had a big righ up about these motors that made killer horse for a little less money then our beloved 400s. ACE Brewer http://www.pacificperformanceracing.com sells the rotation assemblies but any of the big engine builders can get them and build what you want.

2-cents

[davo1977]

To start off, I want to thank anyone for their input on this. I already have tried to research this stuff in old threads, but most of the outcomes end up in arguments on who knows more. The only car I have built is a 67 Camaro with a 383 stroker & TH350 tranny & my 94 toyota p/u 18" lift w/ 383 stroker & 700R4, so thats all I know right now. I love this TA, and just want the right power in it. I dont like opening up engines, and like to just "bolt in & go". I'm not one of these guys who talks about everything & never does it, I always finish my projects quickly. So....I think I will go with a built 455, does that sound good? What transmission would I use for a Pontiac 455 engine that would handle the power? Again, I appreciate the input from all very much

[triathlonx13]

Dude Pontiac (Florida)

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428/455streetenginebuildup.html

AND

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428/87octane.html


OR Butler's... (Tennessee)


http://jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/engineS.htm

[pinballDan]

If your in the Virginia area , also consider central Virginia Machine .
He can build you a fantastic street engine . I have a 463 in a 3800lb
69 bird with power brakes that will run 11.40s and I drive it to work
and all over. It was a bolt in package. Running a 3.55 gear.

Dan

[TA454]

davo,

Any BBC-equipped Camaro will have the mounts and wiring you need to install the 454. You will also need new front springs from a big block Camaro, as the BBC weighs a hundred or so more pounds than the Pontiac and Olds. The TH400 will also need the wiring for the kick-down switch. Handling of the car as a "T/A" will be compromised by the increase in nose weight. Watch out for some of our 461-powered Firebirds. It takes a WHOLE BUNCH of 454 to catch them!

Jim


WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

1) The motor mounts are the same just need to flip them over and use the other set of holes that are already in the front crossmember.

2) the trans crossmember wotn fit (but guess what it wont work with a pontiac motor with a th400 either) you will need a universal one, or carefully cut the mounting pade off the trans crossmember which is located on the front side of the crossmember and have it welded onto the backside of the tube. This is best done with the motor and trans in the car. Motor bolted to motor mounts trans supported by floor jack.

3) The stock front springs are fine. My front end sat higher after the swap. Besides by the time you add an alum intake and waterpump and add headers there is the supposed increased weight difference. Plus if you remove the AC that is even more weight off the front end.

4) the handeling of the car will not change much. Due to the fact that the 454 will sit a little further back than the old motor.

5) the kick down on the th400 is no big deal dont really need it hooked up (that is why god invented shifters). A 454 has more than ample power to pass in high gear besides that is why we have shifters.

6) My old 460 (454=.03) with hyd cam and 9.5 compression went 11.8 and still got 13 mpg. In fact my first 454 went 13.0 with an edelbrock performer cam and +100K miles on it.

[davo1977]

Are you sure thats it? That doesnt sound like a lot of work & this guy is right down the road from me with the 454. Its actually a 502 he said, plus a built TH400 tranny for $3500 Do you mean the motor mounts on the frame from the 403 needs to be flipped over? I really havent been under the car to look yet. I just gutted the interior tonight.

[TA454]

thats it. like my name says trans am w/ a 454 been there done that.
unless you want to go with solid motor mounts then you just get the moroso mounts for the block and the frame.
I have had mine in both ways with the stock clamshells at first then with the solids.
there are 4 holes in the stock mounts only 3 holes get used. when you remove the mounts you will see extra holes on the crossmember just flip the mounts and line up the other holes. As far as the wiring it is nothing to cut the stock harness and make the nessary leads as long as you want.

[68ragtop]

It's OK the be chevy fan. Myself, I am pretty much just a GM fan, I have both pontiacs & chevys. The problem on this forum is a lot of us here are Pontiac Nuts, (myself included) So when many members hear about putting a Chevy powerplant in a Ponitac it turns a few stomachs. No doubt a BB chev will move your T/A & its a great engine, You just won't find a lot of support for the transplant amoung the purists.;)

[Mr. P-Body]

As a professional engine builder, I have never said anything negative about BBC. Only a fool would. But like every other engine family, it has it's strong and weak points.

The motor mounts are attached to the block. The frame pads may work fine. The Olds or Pontiac shells will NOT fit the Chevy. That was my only point there.

"The handling of the car will not change much" The operative word here is "much". It will indeed change. Installing Camaro BB springs DOES help some. Been there, done that MANY times.

It's true, one doesn't NEED the kick-down. Sure is nice for a driver... That's why they invented the automatic transmission!

11.8's? See PinballDan's post above... And he's no fluke, but typical of a streeter. In heavier street-driven cars, the Pontiac DOES enjoy a slight adantage (low-end torque and still able to make power at 6,500 RPM).

Davo,

The bottom line here is you should build what you want and what fits your budget. My advice is aimed toward the best possible combination of a street car, which includes handling and drivabilty, as much as sheer power and straight-line accelleration. If the Chevy engine is the way you want to go, go that way.

Rather than using a 455, I would also recommend the 400 block with a stroker "kit" installed to make it a 461. The main bearings are significantly smaller, which makes the block stronger (smaller "hole" down the middle of the block) and bearing speed lower. Both are only "goodness". From a power point of view, they are virtually identical in performance to a 455, and a little tougher. As you're obviously familiar with strokers (your 383s), see the same benefits from the stroked Poncho. One thing, though. The Pontiac only needs one spot ground out to clear the crank, where the Chevy needs 8. Another advantage to 400 block is the price of the core.

Best of luck with your project.

Jim

[davo1977]

I love the internet. So much to learn..I appreciate the help, anyways this car should not look anything like a stock TA when I'm done, so a diff motor shouldnt make a diff. My plans are silver paint, 05 vette rims(if they will fit) lowered a tad, & black interior, & a too much power

[davo1977]

WHAT TRANNY IS IN MY 79 TA WITH A 403 OLDS?

[Jeff Walker]

IIRC it should be a TH350. Check and see if it has a kickdown cable attached to the carb. If so then it is a TH350.

[davo1977]

So its just a regular GM TH350 transmission. Same bellhousing pattern that bolts to a 350 engine?

[68ragtop]

Nope, just Buick Pontiac & Olds. 350 Pontiac of course, but I think your talking about SBC 350?

[TA454]

(low-end torque and still able to make power at 6,500 RPM)

Jim

Ok and I shift my current combo at 6300 rpm
so one would ascertain that moving 3700 pounds 10.7 at only 6300 rpm would also require a good deal of low end torque.

[Mr. P-Body]

TA454,

We can banter this all week. It isn't productive. For every BBC-powered car running like that, I can point to a Pontiac. You can do the same. But your post said "11.8", not 10.7. Which is it? It's okay, though. Greg Miller's "Frankenstein" (that's fronk-en-steen) goes 10.40s all week, and has dipped into the .20s when the air was good. 93 octane, 3,500 lb. Firebird, no adders, street-driven occasonally. We're gonna put Corey Thompson into the 9s on 93 this season, over 3,400.

I admire you for standing up for your choice. But I have promised my customer base I wouldn't be "stupid" about Chevys. All I require is they aren't "stupid" about Pontiacs. it takes all kinds to make a world, and we all make choices. Careful not to try TOO hard to convince others your choice is valid, as it begins to sound more like you're trying to convince yourself. (Shakespeare: "Me thinks thou doth protest TOO much...") As said before, I have no issues with BBCs. GREAT engines! They belong in Camaros...(IMO)

Jim