machine shop troubles

[formulabird428]

I had my engine built two years ago by Machine Shop A. The engine ended up failing after 600 miles. I had it rebuilt by the reputable same company (they offered to do it for free). Needless to say, I didn't like their quality of the 2nd rebuild. In my opinion, it was just thrown together to keep me quiet. That much was evident, just from a visual standpoint.

So, I took the engine apart before it was ran. I had Machine Shop B go over their work. They determined the cause of the initial 600 mile failure. It's directly caused by an improper build from Machine Shop A (several aspects of the build, actually).

Machine Shop B ended up assembling/rebuilding the engine for me this past summer. It runs great. Absolutely no problems.

I recently notified Machine Shop A of this, and their mistakes which cost me about $1500 in repair work. They were outraged. They ended up sending me a bill for the "free work" 1 year later (dated for this month) for about $1400 demanding that I pay it.

I'm obviously not going to pay the $1400, just because I have documented proof of the "free rebuild", not to mention the bill was issued 1 year after the service. But, the end result is that Machine Shop A cost me about $1500 in errors made by them.


Has anyone even been through something like this? Any suggestions?

[GOAT490]

Unless machine shop B documented the problems found with pictures or the actual parts and is willing to testify in court you have nothing. Also, machine shop A should have been shown this proof BEFORE shop B rebuilt it so they could have had another chance to make it right by refunding your money or doing the work correctly themselves. Sounds like an EXPENSIVE lesson on which shop to avoid! They would have ZERO chance of collecting the money from you in court. Depending on your evidence or lack thereof you can try to negotitate with them or just walk away and warn others without being or appearing slanderous.

PHILLYGOAT

[455Grandville]

Thats a bad situation and losing $1,500 is bad. That being said, its alot less $$ then some of the stuff Ive repaired from bad shops and some of the horror stories Ive read on here.
Seems shop A got very defensive very quickly by throwing a false bill up out of the blue....

[formulabird428]

yes, shop A has major issues.

if I only told you who it was...you'd never believe me...lol...

[Scott Roberts]

yes, shop A has major issues.

if I only told you who it was...you'd never believe me...lol...

Please tell use who shop A is? Might help people save money down the road. Thats the purpose of this section.

[fastgto]

yes, shop A has major issues.

if I only told you who it was...you'd never believe me...lol...


If you have NO plans to tell us who Shop A is, then why did you make that comment.

[goldeneyee]

What the big secret? Tell us so another PYer doesn't encounter similar problems.....

[440GP69]

why post if it's a secret??

[formulabird428]

As far as I know, slander is termed when something untruthful is said. Because all of this is the truth...I should have nothing to worry about...right? I just know that another PY member was charged with slander when he expressed his thoughts about the shop's defective product.

Here are the things I have proven to be wrong with my engine, a direct cause of this machine shop.

• Accelerated wear was found on most of the lobes. This can be identified by full wear across the nose of the lobes, which is later explained by excessive valve spring pressures.

• Both alum-D port cylinder heads exhibited a “step” in the deck surface of each cylinder head, which measured 0.005” and 0.004” respectively.

• In addition to the step, which runs thru the centers of the cylinders, the surface was also uneven from front to back, in some cases up to 0.003”. The cylinder head decks were clearly not true, as .008” was later removed.

• The intake valves were found to be longer than the exhaust valves. While different length valves are neither uncommon nor incorrect, the shop chose to neglect the effects of different length valves (valve springs & pushrods).

• The eight (8) exhaust pushrods were 0.050” too short. Although sixteen (16) new pushrods were ordered, the shop did not measure the exhaust valves for proper length and just stuck short pushrods in the engine.

• Valve spring pressures are also affected by different valve lengths. The installed seat pressures were measured at 132lbs. (exhaust valve) and 142lbs. (intake valve). As with the pushrods, the exhaust valve spring pressures were not shimmed properly to compensate.

• Valve spring pressures (when the valves are fully open) proved to be the cause of the bearing failures. The intake valve springs were slightly over 420lbs. on the nose of the camshaft lobe. The result was the camshaft pushing down into the bearings, removing material, heating up, and ultimately warping the camshaft, thus repeating the cycle and ultimately destroying the cam and bearings.

• The cylinder heads did not contain valve spring cups. The result was the springs dancing around and hitting the valve seals. After only 600 miles of running time on the engine, the valve seals showed severe gouges from the valve springs rubbed against them.

• The purchased oil pan was defective but still installed. Instead of discarding the oil pan, and putting better fitting pan onto the engine, the shop chose to temporarily fix the problem by applying excessive silicone sealant to the oil pan gaskets. The result was purchasing a defective pan which could not be normally sealed up, and having to buy another.

• The oil pump intermediate shaft was found to be 0.010” bent. The shaft was also rubbing the inside of the block (oil pump shaft passage).

• Rod bearing clearances were said to be set at 0.0025”. However, when measured, several of the eight (8) bearings measured between 0.0017” and 0.0020”.

• The pistons were installed dirty (not a problem, but very unprofessional).

• The completed short block was left uncovered sitting right next to the shop's CNC machine. I physically witnessed metal chips going into my engine. Also, the entire cam/lifter valley was littered with metal particles. Yet, upon pickup when I brought this to their attention, I was called paranoid.

• The previously "ruined" camshaft (which was bent .005") was reinstalled into my engine...

Total repairs cost me $1500, just to fix these mistakes. But I will say, if I would have not taken this mess apart and instead actually ran it (as is)...it would have probably exploded. Bent camshaft, tight rod bearing clearances, already littered with aluminum chips, 420lbs on the intake lobes, warped oil pan, bent oil pump shaft, the valve seals would have probably split into two pieces (since they were heavily grooved), warped cylinder head decks. I guess, in the end, I did make out. I still have an engine.

[440GP69]

what ever man you could post all of that but still only gave a sorry excuse as to who did the work so you don't get sued??? why post then??? you are not helping anyone you are just ranting about your f'd up engine that " " built for you, am i the only one who gets really frustrated reading this post??? quit being a " "

[Brian Baker]

'428 is located in northeast Ohio. '428 is reluctant to mention the real name of machine shop A for fear of a lawsuit for libel of what is posted on this board. There already is a shop in Ohio that has filed a lawsuit for libel against Scott Roberts for things he posted on this board. Use a little deductive reasoning and you should be able to figure out who the likely suspect is for machine shop A.

[440GP69]

yep i hear ya i should have looked at the avatar sorry didn't mean to be rude, Overall Shop A i believe its time to throw in the towel!

[fastgto]

Hmmm, got it. Stay away from the milk...................

[Region Warrior]

Not calling you out. Did you take pic's?
Find it very hard to believe that a shop could or would put together an engine that bad.
Even beginners would catch most, if not all of those problems.
Some of the mistakes would have to be deliberate unless you just collect a bunch of different parts and assemble without checking.

[formulabird428]

I do not have pictures of the stuff I've posted.

However, I do have a few damaged valve seals, the old damaged bearings (they don't even look like bearings) & pictures of the initial camshaft damage (if I can figure out how to upload, or someone can tell me, I'll post the pictures). I also have the damaged camshaft, the hack job they did to my original oil pump pickup, and the bent oil pump shaft.

Unfortunately, I do not have the documentation of that 420lbs on the camshaft. I also don't have pictures of the metal flakes in my engine (they were standing right there). But, I wish I did.

And, for the "collection of parts"...just look at my website (engine specs). Nothing is cheap in my combo.

www.formulafirebird.co.nr and click on ENGINE.

[slowbird]

I can tell you that the 420lbs of spring pressure did nothing to your cam bearings. If the was cam being bent that would but spring pressure had nothing to do with cam bearings.

[Region Warrior]

Didnt mean you when i said "collection of parts".
Meant the shop who did the assembly.
Even if you brought everything in to them, it's thier responcibility to make sure everything is compatible and correct.

[BILL BOWMAN1]

We don't need pictures, we know what shop A produces.

[TCSGTO]

Good to see you have the car running strong now. Since I'm in your neck of the woods I was wondering who shop "B" was? Are they local?

[Ron]

Do they produce a milk by product per chance??

[formulabird428]

Shop B was Crank-N-Sleeve, in Girard. I can say, I've never met a more meticulous person than Jerry.

Granted, he's a little slow (but what machine shop isn't these days?), but given all the problems, I believe he nailed them all. He's also VERY reasonable.

[formulabird428]

I can tell you that the 420lbs of spring pressure did nothing to your cam bearings. If the was cam being bent that would but spring pressure had nothing to do with cam bearings.

That may or may not be true. I believe that pressure was excessive for a street car. I talked to several cam manufacturers and they agreed.

However, either way, cam bearings don't just "fail" out of the blue. If it wasn't the pressure, than it's surely clearance issues. Again, something that should have been checked.

Oh yea, and after I discussed the bent camshaft, the shop said that my cam tunnel wasn't perfectly straight and i should consider $1000 roller bearing setup. Lol. What tunnel is perfectly straight...?

[Brian Baker]

That may or may not be true. I believe that pressure was excessive for a street car. I talked to several cam manufacturers and they agreed.

However, either way, cam bearings don't just "fail" out of the blue. If it wasn't the pressure, than it's surely clearance issues. Again, something that should have been checked.

Oh yea, and after I discussed the bent camshaft, the shop said that my cam tunnel wasn't perfectly straight and i should consider $1000 roller bearing setup. Lol. What tunnel is perfectly straight...?
Hey, Scott...where have you seen this before?;)

[TCSGTO]

Shop B was Crank-N-Sleeve, in Girard. I can say, I've never met a more meticulous person than Jerry.

Granted, he's a little slow (but what machine shop isn't these days?), but given all the problems, I believe he nailed them all. He's also VERY reasonable.


I've used Jerry Dietz many times over the years. He does everything himself so it does take extra time but he is a really good machinist and he does know his way around a Pontiac motor. One time I was there & had a Pontiac question and he pulled out some notebooks that had literature from the original HO Racing to do some research. I was impressed! Just goes to show you don't have to go to the "gurus" to get a Pontiac done right.

[formulabird428]

Just goes to show you don't have to go to the "gurus" to get a Pontiac done right.

Agreed. Sadly, I didn't think that way the first 2 times I had an engine built. I went to "good" machine shops, or at least that's what they were called...

I should have went to Jerry along time ago. I guess it took a few thousand bucks to realize that.

By the way, TCS, are you going to Salem this year? I believe it's June 20-22...right?

[TCSGTO]

By the way, TCS, are you going to Salem this year? I believe it's June 20-22...right?

I'm planning on it. I've had to work the last few years but just started a new job with weekends off.

[Kennybill]

I have use Jerry at Crank & Sleeve for my Oldsmobile engines with good luck. I am going to do a Pontiac 400 soon. He is slow though. Thanks for this thread. Ken