Pontiac Heaven

[67GP428]

Who's going to Pontiac Heaven this weekend? Scott

[Squidward]

I will be there. Trying to decide Sat or Sun, or both.

[gtofreek]

I'm planning on going Sunday. I'll be the tall, skinny guy, with the big ol' belly! But not as tall as Squidward! :D

[69GP428HO4SP]

I will be there on Sunday...

[gtofreek]

In the 69 GP, with the 428/4spd? What color?

[69GP428HO4SP]

Limelight Green with white vinyl top..

[gtofreek]

69 is my favorite year for the GP. 428, 4 speed is just the sh*t!

[67GP428]

Hope to see you all on Sunday. Scott

[johnta1]

Well?!

Waiting on updates.

:)

[Formulajones]

Guess I'll be the first to speak up at the risk of getting the party started in the wrong direction.

You didn't miss anything John. For the Sunday Pontiac only engine event, only about 10 cars participated in the racing part of the event, and maybe 20-25 show cars. The place was virtually a ghost town, 3 individuals selling parts at the swap meet, no big name vendors that I saw, and the pits were just....well.....empty.

Hardly worth the 2 hour drive for me. But I was happy to see Mike and Paul whom I haven't seen for quite a while.

Even talk of cancelling the event after we had gotten through the gates, and they momentarily stopped other entrants at the gate and were talking refunds to those already in. I don't think the track officials liked how things were being ran, and took over the event at the last minute. Something about a poor car count, and I heard mention of complaints that Pontiac engines haven't been made in 35 years and changes needed to be made to increase the car count., etc etc....

On a brighter note, I did hear that Saturday was a nice turnout with all models of muscle cars participating at the Nostalgia Muscle Car event that filled the pit lanes.

I thought maybe the weekend before Christmas could have been to blame for Sundays poor turnout, but the turnout on Saturday squished that thought. The weather was absolutely beautiful as well. Low 60's and sunshine.

While I appreciate the Pontiac Heaven event and what Steve is trying to accomplish on Sunday, I have a feeling it's on the way out. I only hope things can be patched up, maybe some rules changed for the modern day we live in, and participation increases.

[Formulajones]

Limelight Green with white vinyl top..

Great looking GP. Not many restored to that level. Very classy color combo.

[gtofreek]

Great looking GP. Not many restored to that level. Very classy color combo.

That was a great looking car, wasn't it.

[Formulajones]

That was a great looking car, wasn't it.

Yes it was, very nicely done. My 69 Z28 is the same colors but chevy calls that Frost Green (code 59), so I was a little partial to it :D

Sorry I didn't catch up to you guys a little later on. Wasn't too hard to find you in the stands when you called my name, haha.

[twooldgoats]

I missed Sunday, though I planned to be there. I puked a quart or so of ATF on the starting line and caused a big clean-up trying to make my first pass Saturday. I'm not sure what caused it yet, but I'm guessing a front seal let go on the burnout. There's a slight chance it's an invisible split in one of the flex lines that connect the trans to the cooler lines. I just had the tranny re-done and the case re-certified for another five years. I'm going out of town for Christmas, so I'll sort it out after that.

It's too bad about the turnout Sunday. The weather was just about perfect for racing and spectating. Sadly, though, it seems the pure Pontiac racers are a dying breed.

Jim

[Formulajones]

Sadly, though, it seems the pure Pontiac racers are a dying breed.

Jim

Funny, I heard that same thing from several people I talked to. Unfortunately that event is structured in such a way that it's mainly targeting 60+ year old people. While there are some of us that are younger than that and appreciate Pontiac engines (like myself), these people are a minority and don't make up the majority of the crowd. The structure of the event would eventually have to change to bring the car count up in a way that targets the middle age group. Most people born in the last 40-45 years don't really care about Pontiac engines, they were already out of production before these people had a drivers license.

I know Steve has had this talk before when he asked for opinions. As much as Pontiac purists hate to admit it, the reality is that in order to increase the numbers, corporate Pontiac stuff will probably need to be allowed, and just run a separate class. Maybe at the end of the day have a top eliminator format between the groups and get a friendly rivalry going. Look at how the Tri-Power Nats, or now called Pontiac Nats, are doing it. They have no lack of participation there. They even incorporate GMC. At a big venue like Wild Horse Pass, they could easily support such an event. Hopefully Steve chimes in and can shed some light.

Sounds like Saturday was the day to be there with the mixed brands and muscle car theme. Everyone I talked to said it was a nice turn out. On a bright note, Sunday has been the only time I've been to that track where you could make as many hot laps down the track as you desired. That sure was nice for those that were racing.

[Squidward]

I went both days, which was the first time in a while I have done both days. Saturday was a busy event day, but Sunday was dried up.

I got 2 passes in during time trials/TnT, and found out I blew out a water pump gasket as I was hot lapping around for a 3rd pass. That was the end of my racing day.

By the end of the event, there was still a small core group who were tearing it up over on the autocross course. This included mostly 1st gen Firebirds, and, no kidding, a real 69 T/A running the course. The best part of that was it still had imprints in the back upholstery of the kid car seats he had in it. Now THAT's the way to enjoy a sweet ass ride! There was a lot of fun being had over there.

I tend to agree with Formulajones. I have attended PH since the 2nd one way back in the day. I've seen most every car, and typically see the same ones every year. The show had a couple of cars that I remember from a decade ago when they were purchased as a cheap POS street beater, and were now all shiny and restored. The crowd is aging. Most of the Cali guys didn't attend. It requires fresh younger blood, and I say that as someone who is a few years shy of 50.

The Saturday event is what the Sunday event should have been. It will have to be opened up to other brands, or at least Pontiacs with other engine makes, to stay alive. I would say don't sell out to imports or any fox body mustang with a 5.0, but something was wrong. Split some race classes if need be, but the exclusivity has to go unless we want to find ourselves on an exclusive island with nothing but the sound of crashing waves, falling coconuts, and crickets.

But nothing can ever take away from all of the years where I've had an amazing time, and PH was the highlight of my entire year calendar. But that's life: We must come to expect change, and we must adapt or be forgotten.

[67GP428]

We overall had a good time. I think it would be best to make it a one day event. Swap meet, car show and the drags. I've always liked Saturday shows the best. Scott

[69GP428HO4SP]

First, thanks for the kudos from gtofreak and Formulajones on my green GP it was fun bringing it back from the dead.

I have been attending PH for years and seeing the amount of work Steve and his small crew put in should be commended. Its really is a shame that more of the Pontiac owners don't make the effort to support and attend the event. The time of year might have contributed to the low turnout, Saturdays are better car show days.

I attend the BOP show at the Rock and Roll McDonalds-Pavillons every year and the turnout is always exceptional. Maybe the answer to Pontiac Heaven is to open it up the Buick, Olds and Pontiac. What ever happens I will always try and attend and support the Pontiac brand.

Would like to give a thumbs up to Scott, your 67 Grand Prix is an awesome ride can't be many 4 speed 428 still alive.

Cheers...

[gtofreek]

We overall had a good time. I think it would be best to make it a one day event. Swap meet, car show and the drags. I've always liked Saturday shows the best. Scott

Liked your 4 speed car also. It's really cool seeing the big cars with 4 speeds in them. When I first met twooldgoats, he had a 2 door HT, 66 Bonneville with a 421, 4 speed. I really liked that car too. You guys put a lot of hard work into them. Great job!

[68azbird]

I attend the BOP show at the Rock and Roll McDonalds-Pavillons every year and the turnout is always exceptional. Maybe the answer to Pontiac Heaven is to open it up the Buick, Olds and Pontiac.


By far the best show in AZ

[Formulajones]

I attend the BOP show at the Rock and Roll McDonalds-Pavillons every year and the turnout is always exceptional.
.

I go down there all the time for the cruise, but have never done the once a year BOP show on Sundays. Saturday nights are better for me considering the drive down and back. Drive my Formula down most of the time. Best cruise in Arizona. I'll be there again on the 14th for the usual BJ kick off cruise. Probably drive the Z down I'm thinking.

[67GP428]

Thanks for your compliments. I'm still new to the area. I've only be in Goodyear Az for 30 days. I like the vibe here and am looking forward to being a part a the Az car culture. Scott.

[Formulajones]

I went both days, which was the first time in a while I have done both days. Saturday was a busy event day, but Sunday was dried up.

I got 2 passes in during time trials/TnT, and found out I blew out a water pump gasket as I was hot lapping around for a 3rd pass. That was the end of my racing day.

By the end of the event, there was still a small core group who were tearing it up over on the autocross course. This included mostly 1st gen Firebirds, and, no kidding, a real 69 T/A running the course. The best part of that was it still had imprints in the back upholstery of the kid car seats he had in it. Now THAT's the way to enjoy a sweet ass ride! There was a lot of fun being had over there.

I tend to agree with Formulajones. I have attended PH since the 2nd one way back in the day. I've seen most every car, and typically see the same ones every year. The show had a couple of cars that I remember from a decade ago when they were purchased as a cheap POS street beater, and were now all shiny and restored. The crowd is aging. Most of the Cali guys didn't attend. It requires fresh younger blood, and I say that as someone who is a few years shy of 50.

The Saturday event is what the Sunday event should have been. It will have to be opened up to other brands, or at least Pontiacs with other engine makes, to stay alive. I would say don't sell out to imports or any fox body mustang with a 5.0, but something was wrong. Split some race classes if need be, but the exclusivity has to go unless we want to find ourselves on an exclusive island with nothing but the sound of crashing waves, falling coconuts, and crickets.

But nothing can ever take away from all of the years where I've had an amazing time, and PH was the highlight of my entire year calendar. But that's life: We must come to expect change, and we must adapt or be forgotten.

Sean right? I think I have the right person, lol.

I think this idea is starting to be the general consensus. My father used to be a member of a tri-5 chevy club. I participated in this through my teen years and early 20's. They used to put on a drag race every year. Being a tri-5 club, they knew right off the bat it wouldn't be successful limiting the racing to just 3 years of chevys, so they called it the Eastgate Classics Muscle Car race. What we ended up doing is having a few different classes, and we also let in what we called "modern muscle" which back then was fox body mustangs and grand nationals that were still new to the scene but quickly becoming hugely popular. This was a separate class that ran their brackets during the day. There was also a class for old sling shot dragsters, dedicated race cars, street cars, etc... Each class ran their elimination segments throughout the day which also gave the audience a nice selection of what they wanted to watch. At the end of the day we would have top eliminator races from all the classes to crown a top eliminator king. It made for excellent racing but most of all, crowded. It quickly got overwhelming to try and run it. It got so popular that we ended up having a second event the same year. From then on twice a year.
Something similar to this with maybe a Pontiac specific class to keep the Pontiac vibe going is probably what it will take to draw in the people. But that's just my thoughts.
I think another issue might be the track itself. I noticed they don't really put on events like this throughout the year from what I can find. I've never seen the PSCA advertise anything there, Super Chevy has been hit and miss, there are no Ford events that I know of etc... Just seems the track is catering more to big time NHRA stuff and us little guys don't have much but test and tune nights and that's just Friday night only.
I guess that's why I miss the little mom and pop tracks like Speedworld. They had PSCA, Nostalgia Muscle car days, and other things that attracted people like myself that didn't cost an arm and a leg to get in to, and more like minded people to mingle with. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places at WildHorse?? But would be nice to see more events for the street car scene that doesn't have the pits full of ricers.

[twooldgoats]

.......
I guess that's why I miss the little mom and pop tracks like Speedworld. They had PSCA, Nostalgia Muscle car days, and other things that attracted people like myself that didn't cost an arm and a leg to get in to, and more like minded people to mingle with......

Speedworld=my all-time favorite track. Even had trees for a little shade when needed. I have many pleasant memories of Pontiac Heaven events there.

Jim

[Squidward]

Agreed on Speedworld. I miss it. It was better suited to classic events. And I also think WHP is a little more biased toward big national events, as well as being pricey. The PH swap meets back in the day were awesome!

If I saw a 71 Nova running a turbo sbc, I can appreciate it. 70's truck doing 12's on the track? Yup. I can get down with that event. LS powered classic? I have a soft spot for that too. I would like some variety and excitement.

I wish somebody would open up a 1/8 mile track around here. At least we could have some options track-wise.

[Formulajones]

I agree, you sound like a "true" car guy by all definitions. I also enjoy the variety.

Up here (about 5 miles from my house) they have been working to try and open an 1/8 mile track. Construction had started, but has halted. Opposition of course from near by houses. Oddly, there has always been a circle track there running sprints long before the houses were built. But you know how that goes.... It's so hard to open a dragstrip anywhere these days. But hopefully the process goes through, that would be my new playground. I feel with only Wild Horse around, and 2 hours away for me, that another track is needed now more than ever.

Even though we are 5,000 ft up and the cars would go a second slower, it's still racing and it's all about fun for me. That's what they make correction factors for anyway right? :D

[lust4speed]

Maybe a little different perspective here. Our four California guys were Tim Rankin, Bill Baker, my son Mark Batson, and myself. Mark and I risked life and limb with our family by skipping the Christmas party scheduled at the same time. Only thing that saved our hides was we announced many months ago that we were going despite the event being the weekend before Christmas, and for the family to set a different date. They didn't and we loaded up our trailers almost guilt free.

Then there was the weather - raining cats and dogs when leaving Southern California, and saner people would have tossed in the towel. Fought the rain and wind until the far side of Palm Springs where we were finally rewarded with mostly clear skies. So now Pontiac Heaven had the time and the weather stacked against it.

Arrived at the Best Western Plus hotel right across the freeway from the track, and the place is spanking new, only $79 a night, and they didn't mind that we took a half dozen spaces with our rigs. There were a few sprinkles as we pulled in the hotel parking lot, so we cancelled going to the Friday night races. Heard the next day that they were able to run the complete night without rain. We had a very nice dinner at one of the local restaurants and back to the hotel early after the long day.

Saturday definitely was crowded. Quite a few Pontiac's that day racing that disappeared that night and were not seen on Sunday? We are used to racing with other brands since we run the local Summit Series, but many of these guys were squirrels. I apologize to Jim since he also had an oil down, but the only time we see as many oil downs at an event is at the street drags when all the ricers blow their stuff up. Many of the oil downs were at half track and the racers stayed in the groove really making a mess of things. Much of the day was spent waiting for the track to be cleaned up. Seemed like most of the people there with other brands had an attitude, and that was racers and spectators. All-in-all rather a strange day, but we were racing and that is always the silver lining. Tim Rankin in our group came in 2nd on Saturday.

Sunday was a beautiful day. We got to the gates a little after nine and found there was no line. Drove inside and found that only a handful of cars were there. Now for a racer this is truly a Pontiac Heaven - hot lapping and no Chevy's or ricers. Then the announcement came on the speaker that they might cancel the event. Not good news for our crew that was on the road 7 hours and had spent the money on fuel and rooms. I'm sure the lone racer from Indiana that made the trip solo across the country was wondering what was up with the situation. Shortly, the announcement came over the speaker that we would be racing, but all money classes would be combined. Not good news for us sheltered non-electronic cars, but at least we weren't being ushered out the gate. Grand total of all cars going down the track in all classes was closer to 42 cars. Think about this, you are in a first class facility and almost no one is there. It was like a turnstyle, and we suited up in the pits because there wasn't any stopping in the staging lanes - just waved right out on the track all day.

Our money class had 22 cars in the program. Half way through with six cars left, we had two electronic cars, two non-electronic, and our four guys from California -- Tim, Bill, Mark, and myself (we felt pretty good about that). The track finally posted a ladder for the next round and as luck would have it, I was against my son Mark and one of us was going on the trailer. He's good on the lights, so I tried to shave my start, and ended up with a -.048 red giving him the win. Mark ended up taking 2nd on our Sunday racing.

Was it fun - HELL YEAH! Will we be back - of course.

Next year should be at a better time of year. I know it's hard and expensive to get the optimum race dates, and Steve doesn't have an unlimited budget. Think he said next year he was booking the second week in November.

Only had my cell phone with me for photos, and just grabbed a shot when I thought about it.

[68azbird]

Few pics in the lanes.
Not going to get any better racing weather than Sunday was. DA was 0 - 1000 ft

[azbirds]

Hey Squidward. Thanks for the compliment on my 69T/A!!It was hard for me to wipe the smile off my face after running the autocross. I probably made a dozen passes. I think the lower turn out was also due to it being on Sunday when it's always been on Saturdays. I could only go one one day so I had to pick Sunday. I didn't even know it was set up that way until the last minute, maybe it took others by surprise also.