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-   -   How Uncle killed Pontiac (https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766332)

Scarebird 12-20-2014 10:22 PM

^^^ Much more believable than the turbo 301 story.


uneasyrider 12-20-2014 10:44 PM

WOW! What a MESS! I see this where I work. People with NO CLUE trying to run things and they just screw it all up and they make it worse because they put their buddies that have no clue in there with them and it gets ugly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aukc (Post 5325094)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...af163cc69a5b7b

What Really Happened to Pontiac
Guest Editorial – Jim Mattison
Smoke Signals April 2013

The demise of Pontiac didn’t take almost 50 years as some have proclaimed. Nor were
the general managers of the 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s to blame, as some have suggested. I
believe that I am qualified to comment on the subject as I was there, inside the walls of
Pontiac’s headquarters from 1989-1997.

It all began in 1992 when the GM Board of Directors decided to go outside the
corporation and hire new leadership. They were out to remove the current Chairman and
CEO, Bob Stemple, who was a good automobile man, engineer and person. They elected
former Board member John Smale as the new Chairman.

Smale hired an exec from Bausch and Lomb, Ron Zarrella to move GM forward into the
new millennium, Zarrella was supposedly a whiz at mass marketing and was put in
charge of all GM North American Operations.

He was later found to not have a clue of how to run a car company. Additionally, his
credentials and masters degree were later found to be false.

Zarrella brought in many of his cronies and placed them in key positions through-out the
company. Many of you may remember that it was during this time period that
Oldsmobile Division was closed.

At the time the current GM vice president and general manager of Pontiac Division was
John Middlebrook. John became general manager in 1989 and had literally spent his
entire career at Pontiac and was originally hired into Pontiac directly by John DeLorean.
John was a bright business person and a staunch advocate for Pontiac at GM corporate
meetings. Among other things he championed the redesigned ’97 Grand Prix, 4th
generation Firebird and all Ram Air programs.

However, in 1996 Zarrella decided to merge Pontiac and GMC Divisions into one. This
was not a merger… it was a takeover. In every instance, the key positions within this new
Pontiac-GMC Division were staffed by a body from GMC. Middlebrook got promoted
and moved over to become the new general manager of Chevy, replacing Jim Perkins.
Meanwhile, Roy Roberts, the previous general manager of GMC Division became the
general manager of the newly created Pontiac-GMC Division. This, in my opinion, was
the beginning of the end for Pontiac.

Roy Roberts never spent so much as a single day running Pontiac-GMC. His trucks were
selling well and he put the division on “auto pilot” while he spent all of his time
gathering cultural diversity awards around the countryside. Finally, in 1999 Roberts was
forced into retirement and replaced by Lynn Myers as general marketing manager of
Pontiac-GMC.

Lynn held that position from 1999 until 2004, when she retired. Her accomplishments at
Pontiac-GMC included the Aztek and the mishandling of the return of the GTO. She was
also the one who pulled Pontiac out of NASCAR racing.

Lynn was a very nice lady, but she was no general manager or leader. Whatever the
corporation wanted she would go along with. She relied heavily on another of the
Zarrella cronies named Bob Kraut, who she put in charge of Grand Prix, Firebird and
GTO brands. The excitement was gone from the Excitement Division!

Maybe you are starting to see what was happening, “No One Was Watching the Store”
from 1996 to 2004! It didn’t take 40 or 50 years to sink Pontiac, it only took eight.

However, there were a few bright spots; the first was a man named Bob Lutz and the
other Jim Bunnell a die-hard Pontiac man, who replaced Lynn Myers as general
marketing manager.

Lutz and Bunnell tried to revive Pontiac as a specialty division with products like the
Solstice and others that were ready, but it was too little too late.

When the GM bankruptcy came, the federal government determined that GM had too
many divisions and some had to go. First went Hummer and Saturn, then it became a
toss-up between Pontiac and Buick. Pontiac was out selling Buick almost 6 to 1 in North
America. However, there was a new market emerging in China and the name Buick was
popular there, thanks to the emperor of China who saw Buick as an emblem of
status…Pontiac was out and officially closed their door on 10/31/2010.


hectore3 12-21-2014 06:30 AM

What killed Pontiac was a mixture of all the stories told here. Quality in all areas not just potential mechanical reliability played a significant part. My parents went away from US brands after their last 1978 Bonneville.

Drivetrain worked well.....everything else less so. Hard not to forget the crappy "plastichrome" that peeled off in sheets everywhere in the interior. Or the headliner glue that failed to keep the fabric off ones head. And resale value at stealerships that were abysmal. That was just a few things that made foreign makes better at "perceived quality".

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the pre bankruptcy GM's issue with retiree pension and healthcare. That would have destroyed the company sooner or later on legacy costs alone. That model while viable in the 1950's and 1960's only worked when they had 50+ percent of the market.

And its true that the whole lack of compelling individual engines both helped and hurt. Pre-emmisions with less competition one could invest and vet engines properly with lower risk. As time went on though emmisions testing and higher expectations for durability with economies of scale made for a smaller amount of "corporate" engines inevitable as much as it sounds distasteful. The Japanese essentially unified their corporate engines quicker than we did.

TedRamAirII 12-22-2014 09:03 AM

http://www.examiner.com/article/obam...ac-or-no-money

goatwgn 12-22-2014 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII (Post 5325741)

I had seen this before in several articles. Morons in the government don't know diddly squat about running the government, let alone a car company. We need to discontinue the EPA, CAFE, etc. All government "appointed" bodies that don't have to answer to Americans. Just another "side effect" of the "Bailout". Ask the British how well bailouts worked for car companies.:gag:

Wareagle 12-22-2014 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII (Post 5325741)

I Read somewhere were Pontiac was out selling Buick 6-1 in North America - how could they say nothing - :(

1967SC 12-23-2014 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uneasyrider (Post 5325114)
WOW! What a MESS! I see this where I work. People with NO CLUE trying to run things and they just screw it all up and they make it worse because they put their buddies that have no clue in there with them and it gets ugly.

That is the identical article that was in the Feb 2013 issue of the Legend.

GRX 12-23-2014 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NBF823 (Post 5322825)
But as far as the 301 as a whole - that motor had no future to me, not in the 80s, not anywhere.

The above statement sums it up for me. As produced, the 301 was doomed to fail in my humble opinion. Back in the 80's, I remember having both 301 and 350/400/455 family engines on my workbench at the same time. The 301 crank almost looked silly in that large block - huge mains, tiny stroke. To me the 301 seemed like a desperate and half ass attempt to satisfy the newer small displacement requirements to meet new fuel and emission guidelines. Much like the Chevy 262 and 267 were. Most successful of the GM engines in that aspect was the Olds 307 which actually lasted into the late 80's.

Back to the Pontiac ... let's also consider things from a production cost aspect. Not only was the Pontiac v-8 larger which required more iron, and thus weight, but they were more expensive to machine than the Chevy v-8. Pontiacs had a much more complex timing cover & water pump design, an air gap intake plus valley pan, machined combustion chambers, machined valve cover rails, and when we got to the ubiquitous 6-X heads, screw-in studs & guide plates as well. Great in regards to performance, yet the Chevy v-8 had none of that. No wonder GM decided to go with a cheaper and lighter "corporate" engine given the corporate financial and economics environment at the time.

> :2cents:
:ranger:

Scarebird 12-23-2014 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatwgn (Post 5325777)
I had seen this before in several articles. Morons in the government don't know diddly squat about running the government, let alone a car company. We need to discontinue the EPA, CAFE, etc. All government "appointed" bodies that don't have to answer to Americans. Just another "side effect" of the "Bailout". Ask the British how well bailouts worked for car companies.:gag:

Maybe you should examine how that is working out for the Chinese and then get back to us with your brilliant idea...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i..._bNwaMD_E_SA_m

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...jp854mmV3CYJVs

...till then :censored: .[/COLOR]

Scarebird 12-23-2014 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRX (Post 5326390)
The above statement sums it up for me. As produced, the 301 was doomed to fail in my humble opinion. Back in the 80's, I remember having both 301 and 350/400/455 family engines on my workbench at the same time. The 301 crank almost looked silly in that large block - huge mains, tiny stroke. To me the 301 seemed like a desperate and half ass attempt to satisfy the newer small displacement requirements to meet new fuel and emission guidelines. Much like the Chevy 262 and 267 were. Most successful of the GM engines in that aspect was the Olds 307 which actually lasted into the late 80's.

Back to the Pontiac ... let's also consider things from a production cost aspect. Not only was the Pontiac v-8 larger which required more iron, and thus weight, but they were more expensive to machine than the Chevy v-8. Pontiacs had a much more complex timing cover & water pump design, an air gap intake plus valley pan, machined combustion chambers, machined valve cover rails, and when we got to the ubiquitous 6-X heads, screw-in studs & guide plates as well. Great in regards to performance, yet the Chevy v-8 had none of that. No wonder GM decided to go with a cheaper and lighter "corporate" engine given the corporate financial and economics environment at the time.

> :2cents:
:ranger:

Get out of here with your common sense... :mad:

goatwgn 12-23-2014 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarebird (Post 5326519)
Maybe you should examine how that is working out for the Chinese and then get back to us with your brilliant idea...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i..._bNwaMD_E_SA_m

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...jp854mmV3CYJVs

...till then :censored: .[/COLOR]

Even with this "evidence", which everybody already knows about the Chinese, I stand by the statement. In theory the EPA might seem like a good idea, but it is run by incompetent people for the most part. Doing things like giving "credits" to industry if they find a bunch of non running older cars (that werent harming the environment) and crush them like Unocal did back in the early '90s. As far as the Chinese go, they are "infesting" our own country with toxins. I know of a family that lost their house due to the US government allowing toxic Chinese drywall in this country and their house being built with it. The US govt. told them they were not responsible, (along with thousands of other people in this region). They wound up eventually repairing it themselves, by tearing it down and rebuilding it. They were getting very sick all the time with respiratory problems due to the toxins in the drywall. The EPA and other such bodies seem to just be busy crushing our own industries.


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