Aftermarket Iron Pontiac head
 

As many on the forum know, I have been begging for our vendors to consider an iron replacement head for our Pontiacs for about 15 years. This thread is to gauge interest in reference to the other thread running about "cast iron head porters" in our Pontiac world. I didn't want to clog up that thread with my ramblings. So this is my specific question: How many of you guys would consider buying an off the shelf NEW cast iron head. D port, stock valve locations, a couple different chamber volumes, peak flow out of the box 280 CFM on the intake side. Essentially a replacement iron head better than anything ever offered by PMD from the factory. Probably around $800.00 a pair bare. Maybe the time is finally right?

I'm in

I would be interested, but no so much concerned with different chamber volumes so much, but if the basic chamber is very efficient( becase if it works well you want to keep its shape, and not change it for compression reasons ) but different port volumes are a concern to me.

We can get dished Pistons made darn easy these days to to the needed target compression , but maintaining the best average port volume for a give CID and rpm operating range is very big part of the power puzzle!

If they where to start off with 2.11 " Intake then having a minimum port wall thickness of .220" would be big plus.

Yes, you bet your bippy!!!
I have some Chevrolet heads, one set on an engine, not installed in a vehicle...yet, very long story.
I also have a set on the shelf

Both are World Products parts..the quality is excellent. Man if they would make Pontiac heads!!!

The ports could be improved, the chambers could be modern stuff and the spark plug location could be altered, at least some. None of these "upgrades" would have to change anything concerning the interchangeability of head related parts or intertchangeabilty of the heads themselves!!!

The mass marketing automobile world should know, that Pontiac enthusiasts are pretty dedicated to their brand!!!

I don't know who runs World products. But I'd like the opportunity to bend their ear for at least 15 minutes.

Arnie did this with Vic Edelbrock. Years ago, we all know the results!!!

Just in the conversation stage once again but to be cost effective, the overall casting and chamber shape would be some adaptation of the existing Edelbrock/Kauffman/Speedmaster aluminum heads, D-port in iron. The thought process is an inexpensive, replacement for worn out 50-60 year old heads for street cars. A chance to bring these old engines back to life with some performance increase without resorting to LS transplants in many cases. The look and dependability of iron vs aluminum for stock and mild upgrades. Edelbrock, Tigers, Wenzler, Kauffman, Speedmaster, DCI, McCarty, all those available for more serious builds and racing. Nothing, ZERO available for iron head guys.

I have personally talked to about 20 vendors of cast iron heads for Chevy and Ford products. Over about 15 years. Dart and World wanted a commitment of of 1000 pairs of heads to share the cost of molds/patterns and cores. That's allot of heads for a niche product. But I also talked to some smaller foundries that were more in tune to smaller runs. Obviously, people in the Pontiac world are willing to spend $1500.00 on old worn out, 60 year old heads to have guides installed, cleaned and surfaced, hard seats and a valve job. How about a new head with all that crap done for just over half that? Then any additional cost is to improve the flow further. Again, just spit balling here.

The cast iron 280 cfm heads ("D"-Port") would for sure keep the Pontiac Engine alive for a few more years if the basic price was Affordable.

Tom V.

Yes!

Hell yes!

Count me in.

I am not in the market, but I think it all depends on if it can bridge a price gap. I think people are often pushed above their budget for aluminum heads because its gotten so expensive to rebuild iron heads. So yeah, if a modestly priced iron head could be delivered that would fill a gap in the market I think it would sell. It would help people get their projects on the road sooner rather than having to wait for next years tax return.

all in id buy

I'm not currently in the market, already having a set of KRE D ports. However I'd certainly be interested if I ever did a more cruiser oriented engine built down the road.

$800 per pair bare is ridiculously low. If US made anyway. Small block Chevy World S/R or Dart Iron Eagle are around $500 each.

Is there really a demand for iron heads? With so many casting numbers, not like just one could be re-made to be a replica of an uber rare head set and actually sell, and just don't see the reason for an iron head. Heavy, holds heat, etc.

I think there is a fantasy that iron heads would somehow be less expensive even in the tiny volume of the Pontiac market.

Is iron cheaper to cast than aluminum?

Just from a quick google:
"Aluminum as raw material costs more than iron ore. But when it comes to casting aluminum vs cast iron components, casting aluminum components are cheaper. This is because the most convenient casting method is die casting."

You are wanting a cast iron head because it will be cheaper to produce or because you want it to look original?

IMHO. I don't think they would sell. The restoration guys wouldn't buy them without the casting #,s and date codes that fit their needs. It would be a nightmare to try to please those guys demands. The guys that want to build power would just buy aluminum heads.
You can still find the big valve factory d port heads for reasonable prices. Im thinking that copies of the 1969 RA 4 heads would be a better bet. The date codes were missing on those so the resto guys couldn't complain.

Reality check - there is an iron shortage right now.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintel...-push-70947714

SBC Vortec iron heads sold by Engine Components in Chicago are cast in New Zealand. They sell for around $350 per bare head. The castings are immaculate, without the associated cracked problems and thin deck surfaces found with OE Vortec heads.

Lower heat rejection is WHY you have to run a point to point and a half higher compression ratios with aluminum heads verses iron heads. Heat IS horsepower….

What casting would be replicated? Like a 12 or 13?
Have to then make intake decisions based on cross over if used on a 72 and up.
All the bolt holes? A original 70 head can't run newer power steering bracket set up.
Some things to nail down to expand the market so these would sell.

Pipe dream in my opinion.

I don’t see anyone with the capital to take on such a project finding it would be financially feasible. I would think casting and machining cast iron wouldn’t be any cheaper than aluminum.

Going to aluminum heads and blocks is a step forward, cast iron is a step backwards.

Aluminum blocks and heads are what will sell, cast iron not so much.

Guys going to LS platforms do it partially to get an affordable all aluminum engine. Coming up with an aluminum block that’s a little more affordable than what’s currently being offered might help but probably won’t happen due to the limited volume

Not enough of a market for an aftermarket cast iron head to encourage someone with deep pockets to take a chance on it. The Butlers thought about that once many years ago and I guess they thought better of it and decided not to pursue it.

Mike , count me in!! $800 per set should be doable. Imagine a brand new set of heads instead of sunken valve seats from too many valve jobs, no worn out guides, no warped decks, no corroded water jackets…

If I'm switching heads, they're not gonna be stock irons. That goes for any engine platform, not just Pontiac.

The reduction of weight and resistance to detonation is more than enough for me to choose aluminum heads over irons.

Bart, with all due respect, BALDERDASH!! The vast majority of diesel engines STILL run iron heads. Ever heard of a 5.9 or 6.7 Cummins having head corrosion problems or head warping problems like the Nissan, GM and Ford diesel do? Many class in circle track racing require iron heads. Why iron? Lower heat rejection and far more durable. What aluminum does have over cast iron is malleability, lower weight and more easily repaired. It will also work harden to the point where it WILL crack without notice. A low product run of say 1,000 sets is certainly doable. IF there is no market for cast iron heads and blocks WHY is Dart still in business? WHY are there cast iron heads being cast for FE series Fords?

Bruce, my guess would be something similar to the 6X heads externally, but with improved ports .

I remember at one Pontiac Southern Nationals in Dallas Butler had some he was trying to bring to market that never happened. I want to think round ports.

I would buy some

I think it will all come down to economics. If as stated the head would be delivered with flow numbers on par with the KRE and Edelobrock offerings and it undercuts that price. If the only sacrifice to saving a couple hundred bucks is 60 lbs of weight, I think the product would be viable.

If the margins are such that this head can't undercut the KRE and Edelobrock offering, then I don't think it has much of a market.

1 to 1.5 more compression would allow a more radical camshaft for the same octane fuel without sacrificing torque or engine vacuum.

I would be keen on a repop iron head with 280 cfm out of the box. The trend i would be happy to start is to sell my PMD iron to the resto folks, perhaps bare and reuse my 1-piece valves and such on the new iron.

Iron is the right material for all-season reliability.

A new iron head that’s less expensive simply because of the material used isn’t gonna happen.

If you’re willing to pony up aluminum head money then maybe, but again any savvy businessman who is familiar with aftermarket Pontiac heads understands that 90+% of the potential buyers will want aluminum heads.

As much as I like the idea I don’t see it as being realistic to expect to see a relatively inexpensive 280 cfm iron Pontiac head to make it to market.

I don’t see why iron is needed for all season reliability, aluminum engines are pretty much dominant in today’s automobiles.

I was there, also!!!

Jim's idea was ro reproduce RAIV heads with date codes that customers that were restorers, needed.
At one time Jim was a big time GTO restorer.
Several Pontiac parts companies, like Ames even had them in their catalog.

I think Vic took on Arnie's dare to start making their first (round port), at maybe 50 sets at a time.

The iron head deal is just a dream right now but...

I believe a 280-290 cfm "D" port head could be produced. If I had a finger in the deal, at all. I would try to get one of Jim Hand's 6X heads for a a pattern that could be ported more!!!

A slightly longer valve may be needed for the air flow. Pontiac valves are already in the heavy side, so what?
A serious Pontiac street enging isn't going to get twisted to 9000RPM's like a SBC CAN.

Just the fact that iron heads are less expensive t h an aluminum heads would help them sell.

These "dream" heads could have better ports (both sides), better chambers, and a better spark plug location AND none of these mods would change ANY of the parts needed to get a rebuilt engine going!!!

Yes, it's a big dream, especially with goofy manufacturing difficulties. I keep thinking of how well Jim Hand was able to make his wagon run withe O.E. modified parts. He was only limited by the production engineering that designed basic transportation engine parts!!!

What about any head cast iron or aluminum geared towards lower budget guys.

I mean a true entry level D-port heads with a 180~190cc intake runner and flow 230sh~240sh cfm(worh potential for more with porting) That could be bolted on using factory hardware instead of having to buy the special head bolts and provision for both style accessory brakes. Available in 72-87 cc chambers.



From everything I've read, rebuilding cast iron heads almost isn't worth it, but current aluminum heads are still out of reach for many and overkill for 400 cube builds.
Jmho

Want good Pontiac heads?

Then save your money and support the Pontiac people who have already taken the risk and invested in bringing aluminum heads of many different flavors to market.

If we keep supporting them they’ll have a chance of staying in business into the future.

Looking for a cheaper alternative new cast iron head to what’s already available is unrealistic in my opinion. As was already stated here there are plenty of iron heads waiting to be rebuilt and upgraded, you just have to understand that bringing them back to life with quality porting work and good parts isn’t cheap either and never has been.

Just like the last time, many years ago, that this topic came up, I'd buy a pair of reproduction high quality moderately better flowing cast iron round port heads, $1200-1400 max, no valves installed.

Musts:
-round port configuration
- 80cc to max of 87 cc chambers,
- external appearance, the outer edge below the valve cover area needs to look like OEM round port heads, not straight up and down like the available Edelbrocks & Soeedmasters.
- Don't need date codes.
Most RA4 heads & early 71 style 455 HO heads didn't even have a date code on them, disappeared when center head bolt hole under valve cover was machined

I am in also. $800 for a pair is cheaper than a single speedmaster head.

No round ports, must be D ports. Would like raise boss’s that can have letter CNC’d to look halve way authentic as a stealth head. Would like to see 270 flow out of the box, 200 exhaust in a d port configuration.

Quite a few venues like pulling, circle track, and stock appearing drag racing aluminum heads are not allowed, and require iron heads. Like the Mopar 542 we built for F.A.S.T. racing, it can run Stage 4 or 5 Mopar performance heads and still be in the rules. Thicker castings than anything available OEM, room for huge max wedge ports. BBC and SBC both have options similar. Nothing like that available for a Pontiac in a a round port or a D.

The other thing is while there are plenty of D ports around to rebuild, you still end up with a 200 cfm head. Fewer and fewer porting options, then once ported you have a fortune in those iron heads.

I have several iron d ports combos that run on pump gas that are as high or higher than many peoples aluminum heads. Over 11:1 on 91 octane. I got there mostly by reconfiguring the ports with extensive port work, changing valves, increasing port volumes, and some chamber work.. People are quick to attribute the performance gains and raise in compression to a switch to aluminum heads. But if you had a modern designed chamber with high flowing ports I think generally most people would be shocked how close that would come to aluminum heads performance with an iron head for pump gas. The same thing shows up in other brands that have the same head offered in aluminum or iron. Pontiac has no such option.


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I think that a reasonably priced cast iron replacement head is a great idea for the enthusiast but a poor idea for the manufacturer. As much as I would like a set I don't think there is enough of a market for it to be profitable.

What my bare never used RAIV SR 614s were in 1987!

Be an awesome option for boost.

Iron creates HP because of heat ???

Watch the episode of engine masters where all they did was swap iron for aluminum same head manufacture exact same casting mold and specs runner volume chamber size and shape they even flowed them and the iron flowed a touch more 1-3 cfm from memory chalked up to manufacturing tolerances

The aluminum came out marginally on top with dyno power then add weight savings on top

Because sometimes i went to pic a part in a non truck i ended up with 10 sets of heads and only 5 blocks, it was easy to stuff heads in a trunk

One other tiny venue for that head would be street stock style race cars, because most sanctioning bodies do not allow aluminum heads in the lower classes. I say a tiny market because 98% of the GM bodied cars use a SBC in those lower classes, and because the sanctioning bodies recognize that GM offered the SBC in just about any GM body after 75.

You'd have to be a dyed in wool Pontiac fan to run a Pontiac engine in those classes. Myself included, there were a few Pontiac fans in NW PA that opted for a Stratostreak powerplant.

World Products, All Pro cylinder heads, in Ohio, even Speed Master, Dart, Trick Flow, and Summit sells their house brand of cast iron SBC heads for these classes, but they have a very broad customer base to sell to.

Most all the classes allow no port work, so your ports had better be top notch as cast.

Just for grins I looked up D port KRE aluminum current prices, $870 for one, or $1740 per pair 65 cc, for a bare head according to their website. For the 74, and 85 cc versions, they're $945 each, currently.

Maybe the cast iron idea isn't far fetched.

You can color me in for a set, would love to have a new set of performance iron heads !!!

A new casting for a Pontiac iron head is going to cost more than or the same at best as the aluminum. The cost of starting that operation is tremendous. World and everyone else making sbc heads has the base of people wanting them (and the years of doing so) to spread it out over. If this where to ever actually get picked up it would be due to an executive having a soft spot for the ponchos. Financially it is a big stinker.


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One thing for sure, there is passion in this topic. I especially appreciate the negative posts and the reasoning for it. This has been a pet project of mine for a long time, but I am not going to take it on myself. I just need feedback like this to gauge where we are every couple years and appreciate the exercise. Couple of thoughts gleaned from the comments. Casting numbers and stampings and car show guys. Local shows, not an issue. High end restorations, they need OE PMD heads. Round port are the wrong idea IMO. Biggest issue is little to no availability of round port exhaust manifolds. Most of us may not live to see another run of round port long branch iron manifolds. Heads would need to have all the accessory holes used in the 1970's. IMO, heads like these would be great for the bolt-on power adder crowd. Weight is not a show stopper for most of this market. Aluminum in every variety is available if it is. I think the detractors make some excellent points however. Possibly the remaining potential customer pool is really too small. Time may be past for these. Lots of things to consider. BTW, the last time I gave this project serious consideration, iron SBC heads were available complete for $500.00, ready to bolt on. This was in 2019. Boy have prices increased.

One significant advantage of cast iron heads is much more stiffness than aluminum; which translates to better head gasket sealing. They would be a good choice for a power adder application that wants or needs stock-height heads.

Eric

Round port exhaust manifold production would be way more worth putting effort into than a cast iron cylinder head.

Even with the shortage and people waiting years for them to get back into production there’s still what seems to be little motivation to get those kickstarted again from the companies who already have developed and marketed them.

Another case of small profit margins and low sales expectations. If those manifolds ever make it into production again you’d better grab yours because it’s doubtful there’s ever going to be another production run.

On the iron heads, it’s never going to happen unless someone’s able to sweet talk a huge casting house such as World Products, much like what happened when Arnie was able to get Vic Jr. to take a chance on the first limited run of the E-heads. Wouldn’t have happened if Arnie and Vic Jr. weren’t friends.

Edelbrock was big enough to absorb the loss if the Pontiac heads didn’t pan out. World Products is more than big enough, it’s just a matter of someone with stature in the Pontiac world bending the right ears in order to have a chance of making it a reality.

In the end you’re not going to have an entry level price on a reengineered iron Pontiac head, it will be either 10% cheaper or maybe more expensive than an aluminum equivalent. A non-starter for those who think they’re going to get them on the cheap. If someone does make them you can bet on them being priced high to recoup development costs as soon as possible.

Please don’t look at me as a detractor as I’d love to see it happen. I’m trying to look at this realistically and I just feel it’s not viable.

Not in the market. If I'm buying cylinder heads, I'm looking for aluminum.

First Guess: You'll be lucky to get them for $800 EACH, never mind for the pair. They will likely cost more than the common aluminum heads.

The likely way to get a reasonable price on them will be to source them out of China or India. And then the consumer have to remachine the entire thing, like guys are doing with bottom-feeder crankshafts, and bottom-feeder cylinder heads from the existing manufacturers.

But, hey--I've been wrong before. I think the best we could hope for is to convince the folks in Vegas to have the down-under foundry make them (Toowoomba Metal Tech). They do a reasonable job with the Chevy heads; of course the Chevy heads sell in amazing quantity, the tooling/foundry cost can be amortized over a much-larger production run.

There was a thread like this a couple years ago with a vendor involved gauging interest.. That never did go anywhere. Cost I think was a killer.

Basically if they did something like this the only way I'd be interested and I know others feel the same, is if they made good clones of the heads that are currently unobtanium like anything round port for instance. 722's and 614's especially, not to leave out the 455HO guys either.

I wouldn't be even remotely interested in anything D-port, those are still a dime a dozen, found pretty easy around here.