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I have started to make roller bearing cam plates for pontiac engines to replace the stock stamped cam retaining http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gifplate. I make the plate from tool steel and modify the cam gear to accept the new
setup. I am selling a new 3pc. timing set from rollmaster modified for the bearings and thicker plate, bearings and races, cam plate, 12 pt. grade 8 bolts and alignment tool to center the plate on the cam center line, all for $235. The kit requires no modifications to the cam or block. It also allows the use of the stock fuel pump encentric. If interested ... feel free to E-Mail me Thanks.... Scott Scott Sims Sims Performance Machining 19370E. 400S. Elizabehthtown, Indiana 47232 Ph/fax 812-579-9815 [email protected] |
What's wrong with the stock plate? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif
Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls |
Do the stock retaining plates really take that much abuse? What is the advantage of a plate with a roller bearing? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif
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Indian Adventures makes new "factory" plates and I've used them on two roller motors now with no problems.
I can't imagine that you would gain any HP without using roller bearings on the cam journals and not just the plate. Any dyno data? Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls |
I developed this cam plate because I race circle track. Being on and off the gas so much was putting alot of wear on the cam and cam plate both. When under acceleration the cam tends to wants to walk out the front of the engine, flat tappet or roller, it still wants to push out. This is probably caused by the distributors helicial gear. I wanted to reduce the parasitic drag in this area as well as coming up with a new idea for possible "bolt on" horsepower. I plan to head to the dyno in mid february to see, if any, horsepower gain is to be had. I also had the mind set that if it was me ...Bolting in the same old cam plate after spending $2000 or more to rebuild a pontiac engine seemed low tech. I know, Iknow, if it is not broke, dont fix it. I am not, just trying to make it better. I do know that Ford and Chevy folks apply this technology to their serious builds.....so why not for Pontiac?
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Sounds like a really nice addition since thrust is placed on a flat surface with little lubrication and no adjustment for slop. I use the Milodon single idler gear drive and it uses the same principle with a torrington bearing that is shimmed for endplay, just like you would set-up a performance distributor. I also run a timing chain set on my SBC that had the end of the cam gear cut to allow a torrington bearing and shims to be installed behind the gear. Lots of other makes use these also. Glad to hear that somebody had the time and energy to develope an application for a pontiac without having to do a bunch of machining. Thanks Scott.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif
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Thanks, I thought that it might help. I also try to set the camshaft endplay @ about .005" to .008". This is for the folks that really like their timing set just right. Because if the cam moves foward to much, the timing setting is lost, especially under load. Also..Roller cam users dont tend to like alot of cam movement front to back. They like to keep that roller in the center of the lobe as much as possible.
Thanks for looking... Scott |
A relative of mine purchased the roller bearing cam plate setup from Scott a few weeks back. It is a very nice setup. The retaining plate is a nice piece and made out of thicker gauge steel than stock. The machining on the cam gear is top notch with radiused corners to eliminate a stress riser. Torrington bearings locate the cam in both directions. An alignment tool is included to locate the retainer plate, thus centering the bearing and race. I feel that Scott really did his homework on this setup. The setup my uncle purchased will be going on his BES built 455 as soon as time permits (too many customer projects). Tony Bischoff reviewed the setup and is going to start recommending them to his customers. I've seen several 30 year old stock retainer plates that are grooved and show significant wear. I am all for anything that improves longevity and reliability. I'll be buying one for my street/strip 455 when I get started. That's my 2 cents. -Doug
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My questions still remain.
How many "stock" plates can you buy for $215? Has anyone ever worn out a new one? How much HP does it add? Is there really a need for one? Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls |
Bruce, for your motor their would be no reason to have one!
[This message was edited by j brady on January 14, 2004 at 01:01 PM.] |
I feel that this will also improve timing chain life as there will be significantly less axial movement. The axial movement of the cam from accels and decels adds unnecessary stress to the chain. I believe this setup will decrease that amount of movement and improve chain life.
Please remember that the price of $215 includes a Rollmaster billet timing chain set, along with the plate, bearings, and alignment tool. An individual could easily spend $100 on the Rollmaster timing chain set and a stock replacement retainer plate. An extra $100 or so seems like cheap insurance to me, especially when complete engines rebuilds start in the $2000 range and go up depending on application. I have seen several thrashed stock retainer plates, but haven't kept any for show and tell. Most have been turned into scrap metal. I think it's pretty cool that someone spent the time to create a new part for Pontiacs and advance the hobby. -Doug |
Sounds like a very nice piece. A good addition to a performance motor.
Ron http://pontiacdragdays.com/GTO4RON.jpg |
do you make one for a tall deck ? thanks jack gaydosh http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif
2000 N/A PONTIAC FIREBIRD |
I do not have anything in stock for a tall deck pontiac. But I can make one! No problem at all! Email me @ [email protected] to let me know.
Thanks...Scott |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goatman:
My questions still remain. How many "stock" plates can you buy for $215? Has anyone ever worn out a new one? How much HP does it add? Is there really a need for one? Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How many "stock" timing covers can you buy for the cost of one billet timing cover? Is there anything really wrong with the "stock" cast aluminum timing covers? Is there a need for billet timing covers? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goatman: My questions still remain. How many "stock" plates can you buy for $215? Has anyone ever worn out a new one? How much HP does it add? Is there really a need for one? Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How many "stock" timing covers can you buy for the cost of one billet timing cover? Is there anything really wrong with the "stock" cast aluminum timing covers? Is there a need for billet timing covers? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OUCH LOL. http://pysales.com/images/boxing.gif ************************************************** *************************** Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac. http://PontiacDude.cc |
There are several functional aspects of the cover, as well as asthetic.
Its a two piece cover, so I can look in there to see stretch or inspect my stock cam plate. Its much lighter and stronger. It uses a small block Chevy water pump, which is also lighter. It also incorporates a motor plate, so I didn't need to run elephant ears, which aren't as strong..... Plus, its shiny........... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif I'm sure there are more benefits, but you can as Mr. Gaydosh, since he designed it.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif This product for sale, I really don't see a need for unless it adds HP. The Chevies and such use cam buttons to stop "walking", but as far as I've ever heard, its not really an issue with the Pontiacs. Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls |
Hey Scott...put an Indian Adventures sticker on it and everyone will agree that the product is worth buying.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif
Biggee???...he's dead....chest fulla lead!! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif 1973 SD455 T/A 1979 SE474 T/A http://community.webshots.com/album/16587603rOyvmFCiHs |
IA developes and releases products that are needed. Enough said.
Biggee lives on............ Always. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif Fist fulla bullets and a chest fulla teflon.... -Biggee Smalls |
I have seen a LOT of high mileage Hydrallic cam
Pontiac engines with severe wear on the cam thrust plate. This is partially due to the helical gear deal from the distributor but more often from the cam lobe profile which turns the lifters. The cam plate goes on before the timing gear and keeps the cam from moving FORWARD in the block. I have not seen the gentleman's parts but, it sounds to me like this gentleman has a needle bearing deal that fits between the cam thrust plate and the roll master timing chain. As the cam in a typical pontiac engine will be pushing the timing gear AWAY from the thrust plate on the block the cam will still be wearing the thrust plate on the back side of the plate closest to the cam where it ALWAYS does BUT might be of some benefit on cam movement in the rearward position during some modes of operation. Think about it! The Chebby guys used to use a Cam Button to restrict movement of the cam forward against their filmsy tin timing cover. Pontiac had a better design as they used the thrust plate. If you had a part that was pressed on the end of the cam snout, had the needle bearing IN BETWEEN this part and the thrust plate you would remove all wear and could set the cam position in the block perfectly. The way this deal is now , it is mostly just going along for the ride and not doing anything to keep the cam wear down between the cam and the stock thrust plate. A roller cam ccan have movement in either direction so there may be something for that application. It would still be nice to be able to precisely locate the cam in the block without any movement in either direction. Tom V. http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg |
I have a pic of the items, but I will not post it unless Scott says I can. Looks like a nice piece.
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The plate I have designed has a bearing, with races, on both sides of the plate.
Reason?? As I have stated that I race circle track. I can be on and off the throttle 600 times in 1 race. Thought that this would really help with the wear of the cam plate. Have also junked a few cams too due to face wear as well as having wear on the plate itself It is easy to ASSUME that this plate is designed like the chevys, but I assure you that its not. |
Brian.....POST IT PLEASE!!!!
Thanks...Scott |
Hold on...I'll send you a new picture with the kit the whole kit included!!!
Scott |
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very innovative and well engineered!!
wouldn't ya know it....coming from a circle track guy! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif 1973 SD455 T/A 1979 SE474 T/A http://community.webshots.com/album/16587603rOyvmFCiHs |
Thanks for the help Brian!!!
Scott |
Quote:
"The plate I have designed has a bearing, with races, on both sides of the plate. Reason?? As I have stated that I race circle track. I can be on and off the throttle 600 times in 1 race. Thought that this would really help with the wear of the cam plate. Have also junked a few cams too due to face wear as well as having wear on the plate itself" EXCELLENT WORK! That will be a great piece for us. Sorry for the extra questions. Tom V. http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg |
That is nice work! A little insurance goes a long way when it comes to an expensive motor--heck, even on an inexpensive motor! The idea makes complete sense to me too--I pulled apart a 400 I am having rebuilt the other day, and noticed significant wear on the plate.
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What a great piece of work. I hope you sell lots and lots of them.
Ron http://pontiacdragdays.com/GTO4RON.jpg |
It looks like very good work to me, you designed it for your circle track race car, (on and off the throttle) then it should work very well in a street engine as well (on and off the throttle). Will you be selling these yourself or thru some of the Pontiac vendors? Thanks for the nice work, i will be looking into buying one soon.
Robert Williams |
I don't see a down side to it's use. Good concept and design.
************************************************** *************************** Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac. http://PontiacDude.cc |
Dammit!! I wish I would have know about this before I built my 400. Its only got about 200 miles on it, so I dont want to take it apart yet. Well, if I do open it up, I defiantely will get one of these. I have built several Pontiac engines, and have seen dramatic wear on a couple of the factory cam plates. So im sure this will help. And everyone, (ALMOST EVERYONE) is right. As much as our Pontiacs cost to rebuild, its just a little bit of insurance.
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I wish I had known before I bought a billet timing chain from butler... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif
Go Fast... Return... Go Fast Again... Who cares about left turns??? |
Jim,
You can send Scott the gear and he can machine it to work. |
I would be glad to machine a gear that you already have! As long as it is a billet steel piece, there should be no problems. I would worry about some "cast" gears during the machining process. Have not had very good results with these.
Send me your gear, and I'll modify your gear for my set up for $150 plus shipping back to you. Thats your gear and my plate,bearings/races,bolts and alignment tool for that price. I hope that sounds fair! Thanks for all the great responses! Scott [This message was edited by simsb52 on January 20, 2004 at 07:31 AM.] |
I just ordered a timing set from Scott with the .006" shorter chain. Scott also has some other very good ideas on other parts he may make for the Pontiac engine. Stay tuned...
Robert Williams |
1 Attachment(s)
We were cleaning up the shop the other day and found a severly damaged stock retainer plate. The plate was removed from a rebuilt (according to previous owner) '68 400. Here is my first attempt at posting a picture...
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Been there and done that! Way too many times.
Thanks for the post! Scott |
Ok, i just received my timing set from Scott and i must say his work is second to none and i can't wait to try it out. As you know the Rollmaster chain will last for a very long time so for the price of this timing set it is well worth the money. Scott has also made a billet oil pump driveshaft. The shaft is made from pre-heat treated 4140 steel called Accruloy from Baldwin Steel and is the toughest steel he has ever machined. This steel is almost twice as strong as standard 4140 steel due to the forging process. Scott sent me a pic of the shaft and at this time it's the same size as stock and he can easily remove up to .125" off the shaft for more clearance with the counterweight on the Eagle crankshaft. He is building a 455" with the Eagle crank at this time and he will see how much he has to remove from the shaft for good clearance and will machine them for the Eagle crank or the standard size if you use a stock crank. I like new parts and i am willing to try anything new that i can afford and i am very happy with this timing set. Thanks again Scott for the EXCELLENT work and let me know when the pump shafts are ready as i want a couple of them.
Robert Williams |
I just received my timing set from Scott (Sims Performance Machining). The workmanship looks great, it was very well packaged, and the communication from Scott was excellent. Please keep up the good work and let us know when you come up with some other innovations!
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also got mine,very nice!Tom
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Lost your address so I could send out the check,
please e-mail me again with the info. Tom V. http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg |
Scott Sims
Sims Performance Machining Where Precision and Innovation Meet! Address: 19370E. 400S. Elizabethtown, Indiana 47232 Ph/Fax 812-579-9815 Email @ [email protected] Thanks for the interest!!! Scott |
Scott- when will you be doing the dyno test on this set-up?
2003 NSCA/NMCA A/M World Champ- 1966 GTO #421 |
I have Jeff Kauffmans dyno rented for Feb. 27th. I am piggy backing on a friends build. The plan is to get it set up, make some pulls. Stop and switch to my setup, make a few pulls and check the difference, if any. All I can do is hope for a few horsepower. I originally didn't make this plate for a horsepower but for wear and a reduction of parasitic drag. I do hope though it gains a few horsepower during the test http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif
thanks... Scott [This message was edited by simsb52 on February 13, 2004 at 07:50 PM.] |
Attention to the above post....I pushed the dyno date back a week to February 27th. Sorry for the delay...Scott http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif
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I can't imagine why anyone would be negative of ANY part for our Pontiacs that someone has tried to improve?! Congrats and good luck http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif
1967 GTO 400 4-speed (416)D-port. 601HP/695TQ AT THE REAR WHEELS. Dyno proof! 11.17 @ 126 spinning... NEW CAR 1964 421 GP!! |
http://pysales.com/images/sweat.gif Well I hate to say this...I have to delay the dyno test 1 more week. I hate waiting! But to drive 5 hrs to do this test...I want everything to be ready and not be rushed and forget something. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_mad.gif I called KRE to reschedule. Jeff is one nice guy. And very understanding too!
Again .... Sorry for the delay March 5th is the day .................... as of now http://pysales.com/images/sweat.gif |
simsb52,
Got rid of a virus and was able to see this post again, have your address now and will send out the check, cashier's check ok? Please provide my super great guy discount price by e-mail again, Thanks! Tom V. http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg |
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