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ARGH!
I'm SO close to having my car all back together.. EXCEPT My $600 IA 2" primary headers don't fit. Now, this is something I expected, because my car has a modified steering setup and NOTHING fits, BUT For the life of me, I can't get ANYONE to build me a set of custom headers, or modify the headers I have. JBA: We don't do custom headers any more. Thorley Headers: We don't do custom headers any more. Doug's Headers: Booked until the middle of September. Call then and maybe we can get you in. Bob Butler (local header guy): I don't do Pontiacs. They're a PITA. Call Jim Warner. Jim Warner: I can't do it this week, call next week. (repeat 3 times) Magnum Force Racecar Fabrication: We don't do headers any more. We're not talking about a piddly little job that nobody wants to do, either. I've been quoted $2500+ from more than one shop (that can't do the work anyway) to build me a set of custom headers. Is business THAT good that nobody wants my money?!?!?! What do you guys suggest? Making the IA headers fit isn't gonna be a simple "push a tube a little" job because the interference is pretty severe (non stock idler & pitman arms, non stock centerlink, non stock inner tie rod ends). It's gonna require re-building at least 3 tubes. I'm on the verge of just buying some mandrel U-bends and doing it myself. |
ARGH!
I'm SO close to having my car all back together.. EXCEPT My $600 IA 2" primary headers don't fit. Now, this is something I expected, because my car has a modified steering setup and NOTHING fits, BUT For the life of me, I can't get ANYONE to build me a set of custom headers, or modify the headers I have. JBA: We don't do custom headers any more. Thorley Headers: We don't do custom headers any more. Doug's Headers: Booked until the middle of September. Call then and maybe we can get you in. Bob Butler (local header guy): I don't do Pontiacs. They're a PITA. Call Jim Warner. Jim Warner: I can't do it this week, call next week. (repeat 3 times) Magnum Force Racecar Fabrication: We don't do headers any more. We're not talking about a piddly little job that nobody wants to do, either. I've been quoted $2500+ from more than one shop (that can't do the work anyway) to build me a set of custom headers. Is business THAT good that nobody wants my money?!?!?! What do you guys suggest? Making the IA headers fit isn't gonna be a simple "push a tube a little" job because the interference is pretty severe (non stock idler & pitman arms, non stock centerlink, non stock inner tie rod ends). It's gonna require re-building at least 3 tubes. I'm on the verge of just buying some mandrel U-bends and doing it myself. |
If you want to buy a header kit,I might be able to get Tyree to make you a custom set.He is retired in Canyon Lake and has a rack.He built my custom headers for my Tempest.Email me for his number.Tom
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Pontiac Dude may be able to help you.
I would use Kooks custom headers if he couldn't. I'm like heaven, everybody wanna get to me......... |
I appreciate the help so far.
I'd much rather have someone with a clue do the work as opposed to trying to build something myself. My welding skills/equipment are marginal at best. But if it comes down to buying a kit/parts and doing it myself I will. Tom, is the kit you're talking about a custom fit job that I just need to do the finish welding on? I could go probably handle that. Goatman, were you recommending Kooks for parts or for working with what I've got/making custom headers for me? My setup is unique enough that I wouldn't want someone to try to make something unless they had the car in front of them, and they're about 3500 miles from me. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif All that being said, I'm at the frustration point with the SoCal guys that I'd trailer the damned thing to Florida or New York right now if that was my only option. |
You got the right idea, do it yourself.Look in either jegs or summit and buy a coupe diffter style u and j bends,2".and then if you have or have access to a mig welder. It's not tha hard. I've done it witha set of 68-72 gto headers to fit an 84 trans am!..Good luck, Bill
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What I did was get a hack saw and cut off the offending tube(s). Then use paper towel rolls to mock up the shake for a new one. Then use the U and J tubes and a buddy with a welder. A band saw would make better cuts.I think Hooker or Hedman have a butt weld piece that may make welding the two easier also.
Other option Dawson Headers-used to work for Hooker and even owned an SD Pontiac. A friend's round port E head set for his 64 Tempest fit great. |
Well, I have a MIG welder, and (kinda) know how to use it. From what you two guys have said it shouldn't be too difficult (ha! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif) to do the work myself.
I guess the worst thing I could do is screw up a set of headers that don't fit anyway. |
I would never build my own headers. Its just not worth it. I can't weld either.
You're best bet is to take it to a shop that builds tube frame cars. They will usually do it, or direct you in the right direction. Kooks would prbably need your car. P-dude is a Ed's header dealer now and may be able to help. I'm like heaven, everybody wanna get to me......... |
Well I just ordered a bunch of U & J bends from Summit, and I'm gonna at least give a go at doing it myself. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif
I'm telling myself that since it's only two or three tubes that need to be re-made it shouldn't be too hard. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif Hopefully you'll hear happy sounds coming from Ramona, CA this weekend. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif |
If you aren't thrilled with your welding prowess, you can always mock it up, tack weld the tubes and take the headers somewhere for finish welding.
TIGER EFI - Electronic Fuel Injection for the Traditional Pontiac Engine. [email protected] |
Just cut and fit the 3 new tubes that you need to fix. Tack weld them all in place and then take them to someone who can TIG or MIG weld them up properly. Best to have a head or a length of large square tubing to bolt them to if possible so things stay 'true to the world' during welding.
It will be a lot of 'cut and try' work to get your header tubes modded. It won't be too difficult, just takes a bit of patience on your part. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif ------------------------------ Some say the glass is half full, others say the glass is half empty...I say 'Are you gonna drink that?' www.outlawpontiacs.com/members/B-Man2.php www.outlawpontiacs.com/members/B-Man.php |
What I'm planning on doing is tacking everything, and then making an attempt at finish welding one of the joints.
If it doesn't come out well, I'll take them down to my father-in-law and have him do the welding correctly. He's gonna be working all weekend (yes, even on Labor Day) so I figure he might be willing to trade me about 15 minutes of his time for a sandwich and some company. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif The good news is that the IA headers are individual tubes (except for the centers) with a slip-fit collector so I think I'm ahead of the game in that department. I'll post some pictures of everything (unless it's too embarassing) when I'm done. If I can get this project knocked out the car SHOULD be back on the "road" VERY soon, as the exhaust is the only project left. |
Jon,Heddman had a kit that included flanges,collectors and U bends to build a set.I bought one and took the car to Jess and he custom made a set for me.Tom
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Get a Headers by ED kit for Pontiac and head to any Race Car chassis shop. Matter of Fact. Isn't Ed in Calif and makes them there.
You don't even want to know the final price of my 2 1/8" into 2 1/4" into 4" collectors and then coated. All for a Street Car, LOL. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif ************************************************** *************************** Owner of......The Quickest Pontiac Powered "REAL" Street car on the PLANET!!!!Will Race for Food. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac. The #1 Smack talker on the Pontiac Boards. http://PontiacDude.cc |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PONTIAC DUDE:
Get a Headers by ED kit for Pontiac and head to any Race Car chassis shop. Matter of Fact. Isn't Ed in Calif and makes them there. You don't even want to know the final price of my 2 1/8" into 2 1/4" into 4" collectors and then coated. All for a _Street Car, LOL_. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif ************************************************** *************************** Owner of......The Quickest Pontiac Powered "REAL" Street car on the PLANET!!!!Will Race for Food. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac. The #1 Smack talker on the Pontiac Boards. http://PontiacDude.cc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I got a good look at just the driver side on Dudes car, and they are pretty elaborate. http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg |
Jon, get the damned bends & do it yourself!
I hate these type of scenarios, where no one want's to undertake business outside the norm. If ya' arn't the best welder, just mock them up & tack weld the tubes where ya' need them. Then take them somewhere to be welded/coated. The big PITA is all the trial fitting/cutting/bending/welding. Do that much, & someone will jump on the rest, plus you'll save some $$$. http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/badta.jpg SECOND AMENDMENT: AMERICA'S ORIGINAL HOMELAND SECURITY. I Misus Rash'! |
I have had several sets of "Headers by Ed". He is in Minneapolis.
http://www.jimspontiac.homestead.com/Index.html http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/jimplate.jpg |
If you're still looking for headers, give Fuller Fabrication a call. They are located in Tracy, Ca. (Nor-Cal) They did a set for my buddies 67 Mustang with a 460 in it. he does great work and did it quick.
www.fullerfabrication.com -Steve |
Well, like I said, I've ordered the bends and I'm gonna see if I can get it taken care of over the 3-day weekend.
I did another test fit tonight, and here's what I've got: Passenger's Side: #4 tube hits the side of the idler arm. There SHOULD be just enough room to tuck it up closer to the #6 tube and squeak past the idler arm. I think I've given up on getting my pan-mounted dipstick tube to clear. The car never goes long enough without an oil change to lose or use a lot of oil anyway, and I know from experience how much oil the pan needs. If the rest of the job goes smoothly http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif I might decide to see if I can get it to work. Driver's Side: #1 Tube hits the pitman arm and interferes with the inner tie rod. #3/5 Tubes hit the steering box. (Very minor) #5 Tube hits the Summit mini-starter, and the starter can't be clocked out of the way. The #1 Tube problem looks fairly easy. I just need to extend a section before a bend slightly and it should clear everything. The #3/5 Tubes hitting the steering box looks like it can be taken care of by dimpling the tubes or doing some really minor grinding on the box. The #5 tube is gonna be the bear on this whole project (to the extent that I'm thinking of going back to the stock starter). I *think* I can re-route it up against the block but all the other tubes are fighting for that space so it's gonna be tight. Here's a boatload of pictures of the problems: First, the thing that's causing all the trouble--the modified centerlink/steering: http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00006.jpg Passenger's side interference with the idler arm. This is with the wheels turned almost all the way left, which gives the MOST clearance: http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00004.jpg #1 Tube blocks the inner tie rod. This is with the wheels turned all the way RIGHT (most clearance): http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00007.jpg Interference with the steering box: http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00009.jpg No interference here, but an idea of just how close everything is: http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00010.jpg This is an attempt to show two things. One, the rearmost tube in this picture (closest to the camera) just barely hits the side of the starter. Two, there's plenty of room next to the block, so I'm gonna try to squeak the tube in front of the end of the starter and then around it. http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00014.jpg |
Jon, you have seen my car, black 69' like you. You probably do not recall the headers.
They are 1 7/8" x 36" x 3 1/2" true-equal length Headers by Ed pieces. Fit like a charm w/o even removing starter or shifting/raising motor. He does great work. I know you mentioned the altered steering thing but just thought this may help....worst case. Good luck on your fabrication. |
Here's one tip I found very helpful when I made the dual exhaust system for my '41 F**d: Try to make all the tubing cuts with a tubing cutter rather than a hacksaw. If you do, the pieces will fit together perfectly and the welding and fitting will be MUCH easier. I had very little MIG experience, but built a decent set of pipes from the cast iron headers past the clutch, etc. all the way out the back of the car without much difficulty at all. Headers are probably much more difficult, but by using a tubing cutter you will insure that all the cuts are at an exact right angle to the pipe and it will all fit much better.
Good Luck. |
Hojs69, I'm gonna try the fab work myself first, and if it doesn't work out then I'll go back to looking for someone to sell/fix/fabricate me some headers. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif
twooldgoats, that's an excellent suggestion, and I've got a chain-style exhaust cutter already. I've butt-welded exhaust pipe before, and the fit of the joint definately makes a huge difference. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif |
some people NEVER have time to do it right but ALWAYS have time to do it over!
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Jon,
Mark Weiss is in the Huntington Beach area! Bob McGuy is in the Torrance area, and Dawson is in BFE!!LOL Mark can do it fast!! Be Cool, Ace http://pacificperformanceracing.com ACE-P.P.R. |
Tom, I have never heard that saying but no truer words have ever been spoken.
Ron http://pontiacdragdays.com/GTO4RON.jpg |
What did the folks @ IA have to say??
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Ron,it comes from our military!
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KEN CROCIE:
What did the folks @ IA have to say??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I haven't talked to them, because I don't really think it's their problem, and I really don't want this to turn into a post bashing IA. From the looks of things, I'd only have very minor interference (if even) if the tie rods were in the stock location (the bottom hole in the centerlink in my pictures). In one of the pictures you can actually see where I had to dimple my Canton oil pan to make clearance for the raised center link. The starter interference is due to the fact that the Summit mini-starter is very obviously designed to be mounted on the right hand side of the motor (ala Chevy). The motor is "kicked-out" (actually it would be "kicked-IN" on a Chevy) and that's where the interference is. Due to the spacing on the bolt holes in the flange I can't clock the starter at all because it goes TOO far and hits the block. So in other words, I think installing these headers on a "stock" car would still require some bashing & swearing, but I've installed enough headers that I expect that sort of nonsense. |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken Brewer:
Mark Weiss is in the Huntington Beach area! Bob McGuy is in the Torrance area, and Dawson is in BFE!!LOL Mark can do it fast!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ace, can you post contact information for these guys? |
Dawson is somewhere out by Hemet or Perris. I don't have a phone number.
You might have created a problem for yourself when you changed your centerlink and tie rod. Because of the angle you may have created a bump steer situation. Any reason in particular you did this? Ron http://pontiacdragdays.com/GTO4RON.jpg |
It's actually a Global West centerlink, and it corrects the bumpsteer. The car has the entire Global West CAT5 front suspension on it.
But, there's no doubt that it's created LOTS of problems for me. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif |
Jon
I would think you could find a local guy who does headers for Nascar guys. Two friends of mine have had custom sets made by a guy in Charlotte and they look great, fit great, and dont leak. I might suggest bringing a set of flanges with you since most shops dont want to go to the trouble to find them, but they should be able to get you taken care of, and it might actually be in the slower part of the season for them. I know all the engine shops around here that deal with the roundy round guys are really busy right before the season starts and slack off around the middle, maybe the header guys do too. Good Luck Man Joe |
Tubing cutter won't work as often the cuts need to be other than that. The hack saw does make uneven cuts and it harder on the welder dude. A band saw would be the best.
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Jon, how do you like that GW front end kit? Can I ask how much it set you back?
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I love it. The car handles amazingly well.
I bought their full front suspension w/12.2" Rotors/Wilwood 4 piston calipers, their SFCs, their body mounts, and their rear springs/shackles (w/DelAlum bushings). I dropped about $5300 on the entire package. I'm pretty sure their prices have gone down since, and they also offer tubular lowers and a front coilover setup now. |
Have you measured lateral g's on your cat5 setup? If so how did it do?
-John |
Never had a chance to, but I did ok in the single AutoX run I got before getting disqualified for being too loud. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif
I'm planning on hitting some of the AutoX events and maybe doing some open track days with the car once it's all back together. IIRC one of the CA road courses has a skidpad so some day I may be able to test it. |
HEY HOJS69,
i HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS FOR YOU, WERE DID YOU SAY THE HEADDERS YOU HAVE ON YOUR BIRD WERE FROM? AND ALSO I NEED TO KNOW WERE YOU GOT YOUR HOOD FROM? I CHECKED ALL THE FIBERTEKS IN FLORIDA AND THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY INFO. THE PHONE# DOES NOT WORK EITHER. IF YOU WOULD PLEASE RESPOND ALL THE INFO FOR ME I WOULD BE GRATEFUL. |
Andrew69. If you want some great headers that will clear everything, look good, improve your performance, bolt on and not leak use Doug's Headers.
There are pictures of this system on this BB. Go to the exhaust section and look at the posts by Biginjun. Ron http://pontiacdragdays.com/GTO4RON.jpg |
Your Pitman arm needs to be changed to the curved style that V8 Firebirds came with. That 6 cyl., sbc arm won't even clear small street headers. I completely crushed the same tube you are having trouble with on a set that only had a 1 5/8" tube. All the headers for early birds are designed with the curved pitman arm, not the straight one. I think I paid about 60 bucks for the right one one my 69 Firebird. The reason I switched back to a modified stock heavy duty starter was because out of three different brands of headers, none cleared the mini starter. Hope this helps you.
Have A Great Day |
Dawson Headers had an SD TA one time, used to work for Hooker, so he's a Pontiac guy too. A friend with a 64 Tempest and E heads said his Dawson's were the easiest he ever bolted up.
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Geez, talk about bringing back a thread from the dead.
FWIW guys I ended up modifying my IA headers to fit. Here's the thread with photos/results: http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...11&m=516607433 And here's a picture of them after finish welding, receiving a coat of VHT header paint (which burned off the second I fired the motor) http://www.offline.org/~burch/firebi...s/dsc00018.jpg |
Jon, I'm also from Ramona & I know that Cliff Fuerst does this kind of work. I don't know if you know about him or not. He is in the orange book, give him a call. Bet he can fix your problem. Good luck. Skip
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NO kidding they did not FIT!!!! some fool welded a step ladder to them!!!! PS other than that they look GOOD!!!
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Here is your guy! Chad's Custom Headers & Exhaust, 951-990-8691. Chad is the guy who did most of the fab work for Doug before he sold Doug's Headers to Pertronix. Chad is a good guy and very talented! Make sure to let him know that I turned you on to him.
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