Hey did wnybody sse that ad in todays Chicaog Tribune Business section about the new GTO sales figures? It's pretty interesting. It said that sales are much lower than expected due to the fact that it is a hi perf rear wheel drive car that was introduced in the winter. They also said that the slow sales had nothing to do with the styling. What???? Does anyone agree with me that the styling does nothing to represent our GTO's from the 60's &70's. I can only hope that someone at Pontiac and "do the right thing" and transform this car into what a GTO should be. If not, then why did GM get rid of the f bodies??? They were lighter, faster, and cheaper!! And to ad insult to injury, the Aztec ( the most unappealing car ever manufactured) out sold the GTO by a ratio of 2 1/2 to 1 in the first quarter this year! (Approx 7500 aztecs to 3000 gto's. Can we do anything to make the GTO what it should be?

Hey did wnybody sse that ad in todays Chicaog Tribune Business section about the new GTO sales figures? It's pretty interesting. It said that sales are much lower than expected due to the fact that it is a hi perf rear wheel drive car that was introduced in the winter. They also said that the slow sales had nothing to do with the styling. What???? Does anyone agree with me that the styling does nothing to represent our GTO's from the 60's &70's. I can only hope that someone at Pontiac and "do the right thing" and transform this car into what a GTO should be. If not, then why did GM get rid of the f bodies??? They were lighter, faster, and cheaper!! And to ad insult to injury, the Aztec ( the most unappealing car ever manufactured) out sold the GTO by a ratio of 2 1/2 to 1 in the first quarter this year! (Approx 7500 aztecs to 3000 gto's. Can we do anything to make the GTO what it should be?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And to ad insult to injury, the Aztec ( the most unappealing car ever manufactured) out sold the GTO by a ratio of 2 1/2 to 1 in the first quarter this year! (Approx 7500 aztecs to 3000 gto's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ouch.. THAT hurts.. But wait, aren't they GIVING away the Azteks now?

AMEN!! arm019, there is a school bus yellow '04 GTO at a dealership near my house and all I can say is "great drivetrain" but as for looks and styling I'd say Pontiac was having a bad day! (Looks like a jellybean) Why didn't they take off on some retro cues of the old classic GTO's. The '05 Mustangs look in many ways just like the '67-'69's looked but with all the modernizations, Ford did it right by capitalizing on retro-styling. Maybe next year will be our year?
Don

There's been a yellow jellybean parked at my local Pontiac dealership for months. The Monaro would've made a great Chevelle.

Theres actually a shop in Wisconsin that is converting the new GTO into Chevelles like what was in Hot Rod magazine. There using the back half of 70 Chevelle quarter panels.

I got my Hot Rod yesterday and was looking thru it and read where the GTO was scheduled for styling changes in 2006!! Hopefully for the better.

You know, Pontiac has said from the outset that they did not want to release this new GTO as a "retro-look", but as an interpretation of what the GTO would look like as a modern muscle car. The obviousness of their only using the GTO name to attempt (not very successfully in this case) to market a new performance coupe is very evident. The only thing that they have accomplished at this point is bringing a dull looking car to market in time for the GTO's 40th anniversary. Maybe it's only a lame excuse to cover for a lack of development time or development funds.

Why can't PMD offer a "Heritage Package" for the 2005 GTO? They can continue to sell nondescript, uninspired "sleepers" for buyers who couldn't care less about an agressive looking muscle car, but do want a superior performing automobile (which this new car definitely is!). All of the missing GTO styling cues that we have been harping about for the last year could be included in this optional package, for those of us who would like the new GTO to at least give a passing nod of respect to the original Goat. I'd be willing to pay a reasonable premium ($500) for a performance appearance package the included a sculptured hood, redesigned front and rear facias, perhaps chromed 18" Rally IIs with red line performance radials. Even a new hood-mounted tachometer-shift indicator might be neat.

I wonder what the sales ratio between those two styling choices would be?

The way I see it, the car is true to the original in may ways, but the public's ideas about what a musle car is have changed. I was talking to a buddy about the new GTO. In his mind, the car is stupid and slow (he is a 36 year old engineer without kids who has a 9 second twin turbo 93 Mustang). He does not understand that the GTO is a muslecar with true 2+2 seating. He thinks the GTO is in the same class as the Mustang Cobra. He only sees how quickly the cars accelerate.

There is absolutely no hope of getting two adults in the rear of a Mustang. I'm also a 36 year old enginner, but I have two kids. I value the car because it is a performance car that my family can live with. I'm seriously thinking of getting a GTO for my wife next year. From what I hear, local dealers are charging a $5,000+ buyers premium around here for these cars (Chicagoland). If that is the case when I'm ready to buy, I'll get a luxury performance car. I refuse to pay list price, much less a premium.

I'm not nuts about the styling of the car, but I can live with it. It does look like a oversized Caviler or Grand AM. I'm not into the retro thing, but the '05 Mustang is so pretty in person it gives me goose bumps. Hopefully GM will spice up the GTO if it stays around long enough. It is a good enough car to have idenity more unique than just the GTO name.

Regarding GTO pricing, around NJ/PA prices went from $4K over list just this winter to now $1500 below list, because the car is 'dying'.Local dealers don't even want one in stock because the slow turnover currently. After the old enthusiast bought this car the rest of the enlightened buying public has rejected this car in favor of the far surperior Infiniti G 35 Coupe........05 upgrades planned:new interior(tons of enhancements), HP boost, improved trans, 19 in forged alloy wheels,improved rear differential,etc. Or, the Mazda RX 8, or the 05 Mustang GT, or the 06 BMW 4 Series (replaces the current 3 Series). Even the 425 or G35 is same price yet TONS TONS more features to make them all superior everyday driveers. Also, the G35, from 20% as many dealerships as Pontiac outsells it 5 to 1, and the G35 has no legacy, no pent up demand, simply currently a far far superior car. Good luck.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gus_Mahn:
The way I see it, the car is true to the original in may ways, but the public's ideas about what a musle car is have changed. I was talking to a buddy about the new GTO. In his mind, the car is stupid and slow (he is a 36 year old engineer without kids who has a 9 second twin turbo 93 Mustang). He does not understand that the GTO is a muslecar with true 2+2 seating. He thinks the GTO is in the same class as the Mustang Cobra. He only sees how quickly the cars accelerate.

There is absolutely no hope of getting two adults in the rear of a Mustang. I'm also a 36 year old enginner, but I have two kids. I value the car because it is a performance car that my family can live with. I'm seriously thinking of getting a GTO for my wife next year. From what I hear, local dealers are charging a $5,000+ buyers premium around here for these cars (Chicagoland). If that is the case when I'm ready to buy, I'll get a luxury performance car. I refuse to pay list price, much less a premium.

I'm not nuts about the styling of the car, but I can live with it. It does look like a oversized Caviler or Grand AM. I'm not into the retro thing, but the '05 Mustang is so pretty in person it gives me goose bumps. Hopefully GM will spice up the GTO if it stays around long enough. It is a good enough car to have idenity more unique than just the GTO name. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gus,

I bought one a couple days ago. There are about 15 at northern VA dealerships all selling at sticker.

Hey Glenn
How is the G35 superior to the GTO? It is more expensive when you get the options that the GTO has standard. It is slower to 60 and 1/4 mile. It has less room in the back. It has the name Infinity and it does has some balls, that is why it sells. A better car than the GTO? If you have driven both and still feel the same you are in denial.
You must really hate this car.
Fine, don't buy one.
JACKASS.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bunz53:
Hey Glenn
How is the G35 superior to the GTO? It is more expensive when you get the options that the GTO has standard. It is slower to 60 and 1/4 mile. It has less room in the back. It has the name Infinity and it does has some balls, that is why it sells. A better car than the GTO? If you have driven both and still feel the same you are in denial.
You must really hate this car.
Fine, don't buy one.
JACKASS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on, "jackass". Surley a person of your obvious intellect and worldliness can come up with a better personal attack on someone who disagrees with him.

Oh glenn,
You are such a misguided individual.
I am beginning to think that you are not of American descent.... perhaps maybe an Englishman?
I say that because of the way that you write and phrase your retarded postings.
Pray tell your true origin?
"i.e." where were you born?

took you guys 3weeks to reply to his comment? lol.

"styling does nothing to represent OUR GTO's from the 60's &70's"

i looked at the G35. nice car. it's not a '04 GTO and it's wasn't cheaper than $31,190. i emphasized "OUR" in your quote to point out that the "old school" is so much in love with THEIR car that they can't see the value in another. the "old school" is acting so juvenile about perceived things like "heritage" and such that you're the joke. the buying public certainly doesn't want one like a 30 year old design and if fake scoops are the answer i feel sorry for you people. agressive like a honda or an F-bod? let's put a huge wing and a fart can on it. i'm sure some people are just being nice but i've never heard a negative comment about my car. on the contrary. when people see them in person they have for the most part been greatly impressed. it's nice to have an antique car and there's nothing wrong with liking it but look up the definition of muscle car. it's not an F-bod-pony car. go take a new GTO for a drive. you might like it.i wouldn't bet the house on it when you're looking at it through closed eyes.

OK, I know all of you guys have probably heard this all before, yes I'm an Australian and yes I own a 2004 HSV GTO. For those of you that are uneducated in what I'm talking about the American spec GTO is (to everones discust) based on the Australian Holden Monaro. Holden have a relationship with a company called HSV or Holden Special Vehicle, whereas the Holden Monaro offered to Pontiac comes with 245KW's and is basically clean skinned the HSV GTO and GTS offering come with 285/300KW and are significantly seperated from the standard offering. You can check them out at www.hsv.com.au. Ive been following the Monaro story in the states since it all started and I guess that I'd be fairly unhappy with a yank car trying to fulfill one of our motoring legends boots if the shoe was on the other foot. But in saying that you should know( assuming you don't already) that the 2004 GTO isnt a revolution, its an evolution. Unlike you guys we didnt stop producing high performance rear wheel drive V8's in the 80's and 90's. This car has a pedigree that stretches back to the 1960's Monaro GTS (an Australian Legend Car), American GTO's of the day payled into insignificance against this car, or so we all thought at the time. Truth is they were probably pretty comparable cars, anyway what I'm trying to say is that even though Pontiac has tried to change the look of the Monaro for 2004, the car basically has the performance, heritage and looks to take on (and beat) some of the best cars in the world today (or perhaps you could go back to an Aztec, whatever that is). Give it a go, you may be surprised.

This car has a pedigree that stretches back to the 1960's Monaro GTS

On that I aree. If Pontiac had bought this car over as the new Monero, we would not be haveing this conversation.

Most of the people are turned off by this car being named a GTO, not by the car itself. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif

let me expand on what i said above in regards to your perceptions of today's car vs the old with some oft repeated and ignored facts. the original GTO dropped a big engine into a rather bland car (the '64 tempest) that i don't remember any school kid drooling over as far as styling until it had a big engine and four on the floor. things like the wheels were nothing to talk about until people started putting craegers on them and they became cool. the fake scoops distigushed the car but they were only cool in their time. today it would be termed rice. my point is it wasn't the styling it was the performance (methinks maybe that's where this site gets its name from otherwise it would be called aggressive styling years). look at a '64, a '74 and a '04 bonneville or any other pontiac they still make. do you see any changes in the shape, grill, etc. of the car? the new GTO IS a natural progression of styling. times change, you guys haven't. retro is bland. does anyone think the PT cruiser is still cool after being out a couple of years? the new GTO is a re-badged car just like your beloved. it's got a big motor, slick tranny and is a blank slate to be as big and bad as you want it to be..... or don't want it, because then you couldn't live in the past. if it fails i guess it fails and then the dinosaurs can pick over the dwindling supply of old cars that you guys have. i'm convinced that this isn't about performance or the pontiac community coming together. it's about what "I" have.

my point is it wasn't the styling it was the performance

Let's ay your statement is correct. Let's even go as far as to say that this is the best performing Pontiac Muscle car ever, now, answer me this,why is it a flop? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

If it's not the lack of stand alone performance, and the car's styling does not matter, then why are people staying away from this car? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif

Must be some kind of conspiricy.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> whereas the Holden Monaro offered to Pontiac comes with 245KW's and is basically clean skinned the HSV GTO and GTS offering come with 285/300KW and are significantly seperated from the standard offering. You can check them out at www.hsv.com.au. Ive been following the Monaro story in the states since it all started and I guess that I'd be fairly unhappy with a yank car trying to fulfill one of our motoring legends boots if the shoe was on the other foot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. I took a look at what's available for the GTO and GTS in AU, and all those performance and appearance options, that's awesome. I really hope those options will make it over here for next year. I sure do like the Holden front end better than the Pontiac vagina, too.

Pontiac vagina, wow, that's a new one. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
_my point is it wasn't the styling it was the performance_

Let's ay your statement is correct. Let's even go as far as to say that this is the best performing Pontiac Muscle car ever, now, answer me this,why is it a flop? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

Flop,Flop?? certainly a success in Oz, Poms love it, Can't keep the kiwis away, Big hit in the middle East, Its just you guys.... Maybe you should stop trying to put labels on it and take it for what it is. One of the best value performance cars in the world today. Does it live upto the GTO name, that and more. Should have stuck with its original name though rather than to compete with peoples (faded) memories. Truth is there was never a GTO that could compare with this Monaro.


If it's not the lack of stand alone performance, and the car's styling does not matter, then why are people staying away from this car? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif

Must be some kind of conspiricy.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is the '04 GTO a capable performer? Of course. Room for more performance? Always. Any serious car guy will always dream of more. Is it a good value versus other competitors in the market place? Certainly. Is it a satisfying purchase? Many will appreciate it's many outstanding qualities, and will be happy owners. IMHO, all these are givens.

However, one of the key reasons the GTO marque is held in such regard is that the car and it's marketing ignited the country's excitement for the muscle car segment and, generated successful sales, and spurred on an explosion of other makes. Througout it's run, GTOs were always one of the leaders of the pack.

Fast forward to today, and the "04 GTO has yet to re-create that excitement, regardless of it's given qualities. That is a disappointment for me since I am so proud of the GTO name. I hope that Pontiac can turn it around. Personally, I too point to it's bland looks that hasn't gotten it noticed in todays marketplace. Too bad since it is so capable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by humbler:
Pontiac vagina, wow, that's a new one. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely hate pontiac's styling (or lack of it). The Monaro's front end looks 10 times better than the pontiac front end, and why they put 17 inch wheels on the car I'll never understand. Makes the car's butt look way too tall from the side.

Designing the look of a car by committee ensures a bland, unappealing car that offends few and exites no one. On the vagina thing, I think badly designed grilles either look like teeth or vaginas. Pontiac's vagina has a strip shaved down the middle, but it still reminds me of a fat chick's vagina.

but it still reminds me of a fat chick's vagina.

Have to take your word on that one, luckily I have never had to look at a fat chicks... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif

Goathead's absolutely right!!!

This car is a real performer. This car is perceived by the press as a superior automobile that offers as much if not more than any performance car in its price range. I've not read a single negative review on it yet. Great drivetrain, good to excellent interior appointments, above average handling. What else is left to bottle up sales if not styling?

I think that buyers are staying away in droves in anticipation of the promised "improvements" that will be forthcoming this fall.

Again I suggest that Pontiac offer a choice of the bland "import jellybean" look and an optional package that would give the car a performance personality. If that personality is oldfashioned and out of date, then we'll find out real quickly if styling does or doesn't sell cars.

Except for the nose and the small wheels, I like the styling just fine. It's the colors I don't like. I understand they're coming out with two new, darker colors. If I could get a dark blue '04 I'd get it - the engine figures mean nothing since I plan on hotrodding it anyway.

Alright, when anyone thinks of a GTO, they think of a true muscle car. Everyone seems to have loved the entire image of the 60's and 70's GTOs, but times have changed and so should the "muscle car". We all know that to have an "original GTO" is what we have all dreamed of at one point or another, and for those of us luckly enough to have one now, we feel damn good about it. I think that Pontiac should have made a true 00's version of a muscle and called it GTO. Remember a few years ago the TV ads for the Trans Am? A menecing picture of a WS6 and at on the street with a phrase along the lines of "the muscle car returns". That is what we need with a mondern GTO. Simply put- a badass car the has the performance, styling, touring, racing, and "god-damn" effect all wrapped into one. GM is HUGE and has the capability to do it right. Hell, if Dodge can make a limited run viper, or any other of there specialty cars (and most of us agree that the viper is a kick ass car-period-) why can't GM? I should have been a car designer, we all should of! So the question is(like so many other things in life) just who the hell is actuallt in charge of making the current GTO what it is? And better yet- how can we get that person (or persons) to cheng it into what it should be? Let me ask you this- has anyone even cared about what performace is available form the 05 Mustang? The first thing everyone sees is how the car looks- and most everyone says that...Yeah, Ford got it right! Performace will follow there is no dought, but when you capture an entire audience with just a sweet look, sales will follow, performance will follow, and soon(mark my words) you will have a true 00' Mustang Boss, Shelly, or whatever. And those cars will be what a GTO should be- PONTIAC-PLEASE GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!! If not, may I show to to the Oldsmobile showroom?????

^ your freaking out a bit there, besides the GTO, I think that Pontiac is doing well. The sunfire is selling and so is the 2004 Grand Prix, around here anyway, the new GP is definately an eye catching car and it's selling very well around here.

Pontiac wont follow Oldsmobile only because the first year of the come back of the GTO is not doing well, I think the 05 sells are gonna sell a lot more, Pontiac should set the production at 10-15 000 instead of 18K, and dont forget that the 04 GTO is only sold in the USA and Australia, it is not up here in Canada.

So I think you need to sit back and drink a beer.