First off, hold all the "sink the ship" crap. I'd like to hear some constructive criticism of the car and how you'd improve it.

My thoughts...
That rear spoiler is just lame. They should've left the Monaro's rear spoiler on it. It's much lower/form fitting and doesn't look so "add-on"ish.
The same w/ the wheels. I really liked the 5 spoke (almost Rally II) wheels that the Monaro has.
I would really like to see an 65-67 hood scoop, although it needs to be much larger (If any of you are familiar w/ the 1968 Cougar XR-7 G model, you'll know what I'm talking about). I think that would fill the hood nicely. Although the Judge-ish avatar that 2004_GTO has is kinda nice w/ it's 69 styling. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif
The biggest styling cue I can think of that would really help the front end is to set the grilles into the fascia about 2 inches. It would give it more of a personality.
I'd also lower it about 1 1/2 inches and swap on some meatier rubber.
I think that'd give it some old looks and some more attitude. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif

John

First off, hold all the "sink the ship" crap. I'd like to hear some constructive criticism of the car and how you'd improve it.

My thoughts...
That rear spoiler is just lame. They should've left the Monaro's rear spoiler on it. It's much lower/form fitting and doesn't look so "add-on"ish.
The same w/ the wheels. I really liked the 5 spoke (almost Rally II) wheels that the Monaro has.
I would really like to see an 65-67 hood scoop, although it needs to be much larger (If any of you are familiar w/ the 1968 Cougar XR-7 G model, you'll know what I'm talking about). I think that would fill the hood nicely. Although the Judge-ish avatar that 2004_GTO has is kinda nice w/ it's 69 styling. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif
The biggest styling cue I can think of that would really help the front end is to set the grilles into the fascia about 2 inches. It would give it more of a personality.
I'd also lower it about 1 1/2 inches and swap on some meatier rubber.
I think that'd give it some old looks and some more attitude. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif

John

put a whole new body on it ( hood scoops ) and make it look like a GTO not any extra cavalier, grand am, sunfire .... parts laying around. and put a pontiac motor in it. if they can put a 502 in chevy trucks they can bring back the 400 ( or bigger )

just because im 21 that dont mean i have to like imports

I agree on some type of Ram Air set up.
I like the vertical headlight arrangement like the Caddys are using and would look good with a '67ish grill layout.
They need to change the tail lights to a more retro style. Sorry, but they do look kinda like a Neon from the back.
That would be a start. Give the thing a little more mean look, but not overly retro.

Brian

1967 GTO project in the works. 2000 GTP family hauler.

Dump the Grand Am nose, 18 months my ass. They didn't do squat to the tail end. The wing looks lame. Get rid of the Honda Accord side profile. Give it some hood scoops. There is nothing visually that says its a GTO besides the Retro GTO logo on a car that they didn't wanna make retro.



_____________________________
Foolproof and Sucka free since 1979.http://members.aol.com/hearseq/skulspin.gif http://www.deanguitars.com/psupload/pics/3.gif http://members.aol.com/hearseq/skulspin.gif

one thing i agree with is get rid of the wing... but thats easily done.

Australian RWD + American V8 - Now THAT'S what I call a "coalition".

I'd change the tailights to something similar to the 4th gen t/a's as the honeycomb pattern would go well with the front grills. Other than that, maybe some other rims, maybe with some dish to them. The rest looks good imo.

Split the exhaust (behind rear wheels would be sweet), subtle scoop, inset the grill, put those Rally III wheels that the CV8 has, and above all else sell a STRIPPED version similar to the Porsche GT3 concept! Give us the AWD version and I know it's not performance but I'd love a convertible.

Drop Top GTO...hmmm... now that would be nice.
http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif

John

I like this tail end better than the one on the GTO. This pic was taken from the HSV site. It is the new AWD Coupe 4.

It should have hood scoops, blacked out grills and no rear spoiler.

Kind of like GTO_2004's avatar.

A different tail light set would be better, maybe a two- or three-bar horizontal LED array set into the rear panel? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif

Those were the main visual differences between the GTO and the Tempest/LeMans.

If the GTO was still being produced today as the Mid-Sized-Car-with-the-Full-Sized-Engine, (Tempest/LeMans w/389ci)
it would be a Grand Am Coupe with scoops, a blacked out grill and a 3.8L V6. Hmm... Kinda like the Grand Am SC/T, but without the rear spoiler and with the 3.8L instead of the 3.4L.

That might be fun, and it would be affordable, too! (Relatively) But, it wouldn't have a V8 and it would be FWD. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif

At least the '04 GTO WILL be RWD and have a V8.

Put the SC/T hood on it, fix the tail lights and get rid of the rear spoiler (save it for the Judge!) and it's good to go! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

moving this to the 04 tech forum and closing this thread.

mike

I am getting one and hate the wing. It does cause a problem with the third light being in the wing. As for the body. I expect the performance will make me forget about the looks.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_razz.gif

I actually don't think the spoiler looks that bad (of course I own an '88 Fiero GT with an even bigger spoiler, so that gives you a frame of reference). To me, integrated spoilers remind me too much of Camaro's.

I'll agree it needs hood scoops. What's a GTO without hood scoops? Even the Grand Am has hood scoops now!

Split the exhausts to both sides. I know it really has true duals, but make it LOOK like it!

Add some character lines to the body, and it will look less like a Honda jellybean. An '04 was sitting at a light facing me just off Woodward this summer and my Mopar buddy actually noticed the car before I did. It blends in like it's a generic coupe.

Keep the dual grills, but shorten the height and set them back or surround them with trim to set them off.

Unfortunately, a real Pontiac engine will NEVER happen (I'm taking all bets on this one). I work with GM Powertrain Engineering every day and there is no such thing anymore, and probably never will be. Tooling has all been scrapped. In a few more years, only 2 V8 platforms will exist (Chevy small block & Caddy Northstar). Heck, Pontiac Engineering doesn't even exist anymore. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_frown.gif

I will, however, jump at the chance to test drive one as soon as they're more available.

John

Nothing at all about the car says muscle, instead it looks like a Grand Am. How to improve it, can the sheet metal. GM is always coming up with bad ideas from the corporate level. The Phiero (sp) was a prime example, Build it to look nice but drive like a Chevette. In this case they have the drive train going for them, but the body is blah.
Constructive??? Start with the grill, give it a unique look that lets it stand out by itself. Pattern it after the late 60's early 70's grills. Hood scoops a must even if they are not functional. Add a little coke bottle flair to the side lines. And add some more meat to the tires.

and to think guys they had 30 years to design or (bring back) the GTO and it looks like they put this thing together in 2 months,but hey its a GTO and there is always 2005.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dryseals:
Nothing at all about the car says muscle, instead it looks like a Grand Am. How to improve it, can the sheet metal. GM is always coming up with bad ideas from the corporate level. The Phiero (sp) was a prime example, Build it to look nice but drive like a Chevette. In this case they have the drive train going for them, but the body is blah.
Constructive??? Start with the grill, give it a unique look that lets it stand out by itself. Pattern it after the late 60's early 70's grills. Hood scoops a must even if they are not functional. Add a little coke bottle flair to the side lines. And add some more meat to the tires.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What self respecting Pontiac fan doesn't know how to spell Fiero? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

More meat? They went from 215 to 245, thank god! Performance now, styling later, stay tuned...

"the Humbler...the Humbler...G...T...O!"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dryseals:
The Phiero (sp) was a prime example, Build it to look nice but drive like a Chevette.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gifI just wish that my old Chevette had a V-6 available. Besides the Chevettes didn't handle that bad.
I can't imagine a mid-engined 'Phiero' handled like a front-engined Chevette.
Always liked the Fiero GT it was almost a GTO...

While I personally don't believe it should be sold at all, getting into the spirit of this thread:

Take a cue from Ford. The Mustang is rated number 2 in prospective customer views of all "sports cars" sold in the USA. They have a modern product with very distinct ties to the past, AND IT SELLS!!! The only other USA-produced vehicle to make the list was the Corvette in 7th place. Kudos to Ford for remembering the past. Shame on GM for ignoring it.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
While I personally don't believe it should be sold at all, getting into the spirit of this thread:

Take a cue from Ford. The Mustang is rated number 2 in prospective customer views of all "sports cars" sold in the USA. They have a modern product with very distinct ties to the past, AND IT SELLS!!! The only other USA-produced vehicle to make the list was the Corvette in 7th place. Kudos to Ford for remembering the past. Shame on GM for ignoring it.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LINK? Modern Product? Uh, based off the '78 Fairmont? Give me a F'ing break. You are so wrong on this isn't even funny. Go read my thread on the Autoweek article.

Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[QUOTE]Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!
QUOTE]

whats this supposed to mean ? the Holden SS beats mustang sales, by such a huge margin it isn't even funny.

Australian RWD + American V8 - Now THAT'S what I call a "coalition".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again JON, what article are you refrencing? Do you have a link to it?

So you won't read what markting people said about the GTO and the direction pontiac is going with the it uh? No need to read the thread but you have read the article uh? Tell me what it says then.

Again, you said one thing and based on YOUR FACTS you are talking about a "Modern product" that is based off a 1978 FAIRMONT. That is NOT a correct statement. Sorry.

The last time a Camaro or Firebird outsold Mustang was in the mid 1990's, 1995 I think.

Jon, the reason it sells isn't because it is modern, it is because it is CHEAP. The interior is cheap, the build quality is cheap. The last of the F-bodies were not much better but they were better. Not to mention fleet sales of V6 cars(where the majority of Mustangs sales come from, because it ain't from the GT/Cobra sales) is where the numbers get artifically inflated.

And I hate to tell you, alot of young people are not buying V8 muscle cars. They are buying foreign cheap cars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again JON, what article are you refrencing? Do you have a link to it?

So you won't read what markting people said about the GTO and the direction pontiac is going with the it uh? No need to read the thread but you have read the article uh? Tell me what it says then.

Again, you said one thing and based on YOUR FACTS you are talking about a "Modern product" that is based off a 1978 FAIRMONT. That is NOT a correct statement. Sorry.

The last time a Camaro or Firebird outsold Mustang was in the mid 1990's, 1995 I think.

Jon, the reason it sells isn't because it is modern, it is because it is CHEAP. The interior is cheap, the build quality is cheap. The last of the F-bodies were not much better but they were better. Not to mention fleet sales of V6 cars(where the majority of Mustangs sales come from, because it ain't from the GT/Cobra sales) is where the numbers get artifically inflated.

And I hate to tell you, alot of young people are not buying V8 muscle cars. They are buying foreign cheap cars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again JON, what article are you refrencing? Do you have a link to it?

So you won't read what markting people said about the GTO and the direction pontiac is going with the it uh? No need to read the thread but you have read the article uh? Tell me what it says then.

Again, you said one thing and based on YOUR FACTS you are talking about a "Modern product" that is based off a 1978 FAIRMONT. That is NOT a correct statement. Sorry.

The last time a Camaro or Firebird outsold Mustang was in the mid 1990's, 1995 I think.

Jon, the reason it sells isn't because it is modern, it is because it is CHEAP. The interior is cheap, the build quality is cheap. The last of the F-bodies were not much better but they were better. Not to mention fleet sales of V6 cars(where the majority of Mustangs sales come from, because it ain't from the GT/Cobra sales) is where the numbers get artifically inflated.

And I hate to tell you, alot of young people are not buying V8 muscle cars. They are buying foreign cheap cars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again JON, what article are you refrencing? Do you have a link to it?

So you won't read what markting people said about the GTO and the direction pontiac is going with the it uh? No need to read the thread but you have read the article uh? Tell me what it says then.

Again, you said one thing and based on YOUR FACTS you are talking about a "Modern product" that is based off a 1978 FAIRMONT. That is NOT a correct statement. Sorry.

The last time a Camaro or Firebird outsold Mustang was in the mid 1990's, 1995 I think.

Jon, the reason it sells isn't because it is modern, it is because it is CHEAP. The interior is cheap, the build quality is cheap. The last of the F-bodies were not much better but they were better. Not to mention fleet sales of V6 cars(where the majority of Mustangs sales come from, because it ain't from the GT/Cobra sales) is where the numbers get artifically inflated.

And I hate to tell you, alot of young people are not buying V8 muscle cars. They are buying foreign cheap cars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again JON, what article are you refrencing? Do you have a link to it?

So you won't read what markting people said about the GTO and the direction pontiac is going with the it uh? No need to read the thread but you have read the article uh? Tell me what it says then.

Again, you said one thing and based on YOUR FACTS you are talking about a "Modern product" that is based off a 1978 FAIRMONT. That is NOT a correct statement. Sorry.

The last time a Camaro or Firebird outsold Mustang was in the mid 1990's, 1995 I think.

Jon, the reason it sells isn't because it is modern, it is because it is CHEAP. The interior is cheap, the build quality is cheap. The last of the F-bodies were not much better but they were better. Not to mention fleet sales of V6 cars(where the majority of Mustangs sales come from, because it ain't from the GT/Cobra sales) is where the numbers get artifically inflated.

And I hate to tell you, alot of young people are not buying V8 muscle cars. They are buying foreign cheap cars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again JON, what article are you refrencing? Do you have a link to it?

So you won't read what markting people said about the GTO and the direction pontiac is going with the it uh? No need to read the thread but you have read the article uh? Tell me what it says then.

Again, you said one thing and based on YOUR FACTS you are talking about a "Modern product" that is based off a 1978 FAIRMONT. That is NOT a correct statement. Sorry.

The last time a Camaro or Firebird outsold Mustang was in the mid 1990's, 1995 I think.

Jon, the reason it sells isn't because it is modern, it is because it is CHEAP. The interior is cheap, the build quality is cheap. The last of the F-bodies were not much better but they were better. Not to mention fleet sales of V6 cars(where the majority of Mustangs sales come from, because it ain't from the GT/Cobra sales) is where the numbers get artifically inflated.

And I hate to tell you, alot of young people are not buying V8 muscle cars. They are buying foreign cheap cars.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Mrgto - with all due respect, there is no need for me to read your thread, as I am quite capable (and have) read the Autoweek article.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me "so wrong it isn't even funny". And when lately has a GM competitor sold with the Mustang??? And why is the only GM vehicle to make the referenced list the Corvette in 7th place, when the Mustang is second? This is not my opinion, but others. Are all those who made up the survey "so wrong it isn't even funny"? Maybe you think the survey was taken in Dearborn???

By the way, my comments were meant toward outward appearance. The young people seem to like the Mustang, as do those of us my age; and that is one major reason it sells. Betcha GM would love for the Holden SS to sell as well!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then how do you know which Autoweek article on the GTO I am talking about?

Jon, when you say MODERN PRODUCT, then I have to automatically assume that you don't know what you are talking about. Because the current Mustang is based off the same chasis as the 1978 Fairmont. That car was designed back in 1976 probably. That ain't modern hate to tell ya.

Again, WHICH LIST ARE YOU REFERENCING!!!??? Got a link for it?

Jon, mustang sells because of all the fleet sales every year to rental companies in the south, west coast and Hawaii. In fact I might be renting one when I go to Ft.Lauderdale in 8 days. If you want to say V8 sales, fine. The last time the F-body outsold the Mustang was in 1995 I believe.

And young people are not buying V8 powered cars. They are buying foreign 4cyl pocket rockets.

I can respect your unwavering support of the Holden, and the obvious hours spent on research you've done. I can even accept your arguments against everyone who expresses a negative opinion about the car, (and in some cases facts). (Please don't ask me to go through the forum to point these out, as I don't have the time). However, to fill a page with the same post 7 times is really hard to understand. I know double, and sometimes triple posting happens. You like the car----cool, others don't-------cool. Look on the bright side, the car is here, it's a fact of life now, and you've won along with a few others. So have fun answering questions about when Honda started making GTO's.

If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Mr gto - thanks for posting sufficient times that I could read this thread.

When I referred to "modern", I was referring to being made (and selling well) today.

If you wish to say I don't know what I am talking about because the current Mustang is based on a chassis from 1978, that is your right. However, using the same line of reasoning, your Holden is antiquated as it uses a wheel , and how long have they been around. Sounds like you also don't know what you are talking about! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

As to your comment that the Mustang is cheap, and that's why it sells, why GM certainly has the same option! Maybe you might suggest GM cut the price of the Holden SS. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

On another note, I find it very positive that NickV's dealer is having a party with the 2004 Holden as its star; but inviting enthusiasts with older Pontiacs to bring in the old cars. Here is a dealer who understands that brand loyalty begins at the corporate level. Since corporate brand loyalty on this issue is at best questionable, this dealer is trying to promote brand loyalty at the dealer level. Betcha he does well with these, as well as the rest of the line. I think he deserves a promotion!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.