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I am fairly set on going EFI with my 67 GTO. I was initially excited when Edelbrock set its release for its EFI system however after emailed the rep, at a list price of 2600 for a TBI system, I am looking at Holley's 950 Commander system which can be had at 1300 dollars. Are there any other alternatives I should be looking at or any MPFI systems out there? I know this has been mulled over before...
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I am fairly set on going EFI with my 67 GTO. I was initially excited when Edelbrock set its release for its EFI system however after emailed the rep, at a list price of 2600 for a TBI system, I am looking at Holley's 950 Commander system which can be had at 1300 dollars. Are there any other alternatives I should be looking at or any MPFI systems out there? I know this has been mulled over before...
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EFI is cool but expensive. I have almost $6K in the fuel injection for my twin turbo 455.
IMHO I'd only recommend a multipoint fuel injection system, I'd stay away from any form of throttle body injection. I will also add that getting the fuel injeciton dialed in is a lot of work. Plan on spending at least 4 hours on a chassis dyno to get things running right. As for cheap alternatives, the Holley and Edelbrock systems are likely to be the least expensive things out there. |
455Turbo's hard numbers are right on target from a guy who's just been there and done that very well.
The owner and head guru at the machine shop that does work for me in Las Vegas is somewhat of an EFI expert. He estimates $3,500 to $4,500 for a decent one based on a commerical product. The $1,300 Holley Pro-Jection is junk, he says. He hasn't seen the Edelbrock EFI. I only saw it at SEMA, so it's TBD. If you want to play with the big dogs, you have to bring your wallet. For the guys to don't have the scratch for EFI, I will be testing blow thru of the AFB-type, in addition to the existing QJet design. Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OriginalHO:
... The $1,300 Holley Pro-Jection is junk ... Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboFo...></BLOCKQUOTE> I tend to agree about the Pro-Jection units. However, I think the above post is refering to the Holley Commander 950 system. While you can get the computer, harness, injectors etc... for around $1300, it will require more hardware to install it and make it function. I must say that it works very well. Fairly easy to tune and can be used on a wide range of engine combinations with either TBI or Multi Point. I use it on a 200" four cylinder (63' vintage) with a TBI and it seems to work fine, even with a huge solid roller cam. The Commander 950 is one of the better bargains in EFI. I'll probably use another one on my supercharged 428 when I build it. Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you. http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I tend to agree about the Pro-Jection units. However, I think the above post is refering to the Holley Commander 950 system. While you can get the computer, harness, injectors etc... for around $1300, it will require more hardware to install it and make it function. I must say that it works very well.(snip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I appreciate the feedback. The whole aftermarket EFI deal is one fog right now because of the word of mouth and an individual's experience. On the road/track is an entirely different matter, to say the least. Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html |
Craig,
I agree that the current EFI scene is a bit unclear. It sure is nice to have all the choices though! I have experience with the Holley system as well as the Electromotive TECII (quite a few years ago). The Electromotive was closer out of the box, but was MUCH more difficult to tune, in fact, I never got it to run really well, just o.k. (Ford 2.3 Turbo). Might be worth a try with one of your TurboForce systems. Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you. http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Motornoggin:
Craig, I agree that the current EFI scene is a bit unclear. It sure is nice to have all the choices though!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> email me at [email protected] Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html |
I will hopefully be installing the Holley Projection on my bird in another month or so.
So far the worst part was welding the "bungs" into my Torker intake(I suck at aluminum welding) From my understanding, the $1,300.00 price for the Comander system doesn't include the injectors. Of course. I got lucky.......... The kit I have, with injectors was given to me. (all brand new, still in the box) So I can afford to spend the time "tweaking" to get it right. So hopefully I'll be able to give my personal feedback on the Holley system shortly. |
TECII will datalog. Does the Comander series, too? Not sure why you couldn't tune with the TEC even not going the dyno route since it has datalogging.
I'd have to have one with multi-point or I wouldn't bother doing it. Doug http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...a&ul=330607354 ----------------------------- [This message was edited by PonchoV8] www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb |
Marty,
Now I'm not sure if the $1300 system come with injectors or not? I paid $750-$800 for my system, but only ordered the ECU, harness, sensors and software. I thought the more expensive one came with injectors too, hmmm... I had the fuel pump, and a friend gave me a TBI for free (I did have to upgrade the injectors and pod). Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you. http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PonchoV8:
TECII will datalog. Does the Comander series, too? Not sure why you couldn't tune with the TEC even not going the dyno route since it has datalogging. I'd have to have one with multi-point or I wouldn't bother doing it. Doug http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...a&ul=330607354 ----------------------------- [This message was edited by PonchoV8] The Holley does have data logging. I never put the Ford on a dyno, just messed around with it. I was only 17-18 at the time and had no patience. It was also one of their first systems, I think I was the second person to buy a software license form them (at the time, if you wanted to tune it yourself, you had to buy the software license seperatley.) http://www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you. http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin |
Ther's a guy on the thirdgen.org board working on a self tune for the Commander 950. They have an upgrade to take a wideband currently.
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Well that's a lot of good wisdom from everybody with experience, I was under the impression that the TBI systems were almost as good as MPFI, just a little bit easier to install and tune. I was considering the Commander, but there is no way to get it to fit onto a Pontiac short of custom intakes, right???
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by New Kid:
Well that's a lot of good wisdom from everybody with experience, I was under the impression that the TBI systems were almost as good as MPFI, just a little bit easier to install and tune. I was considering the Commander, but there is no way to get it to fit onto a Pontiac short of custom intakes, right???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be true of all EFI systems for Pontiac, excepting the new Edelbrock (Not released yet?). Anyway, you can get an Edelbrock Victor intake with injector bungs from Edelbrock, or customized from folks on this board. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I have not had too much trouble with TBI injection. It is easier, but you do trade the ease for ultimate power and fuel distribution, but they work pretty good. Also, keep in mind that the Commander 950 is COMPETELY different than the Pro-Jection, they are not the same thing. The Pro-Jection was a good idea that was not executed very well. The Commander 950 is full featured fully programable engine management system that works as well or better than advertised. Never trust a fart. They sometimes suprise you. http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin |
It is my understanding that Holley had a little help on the Commander 950 system from John Meany
(The guy who came up with the Digital Fuel Injection systems and the Fel-Pro system that most of the average racers are using. I realize that a Motec is a better system but the Fel-Pro (now FAST) system is still a great system and has data logging, wide band O2 etc. Craig, if you go AFB on some of your systems you going to use Carter OEM carbs or the Edelbrock clone stuff? (Jon Hargrove does not care for the clone stuff but likes the Carter stuff). He told me one time he got some Carter stuff to work at over 20 psi boost pressures! Tom V. http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg |
I can't comment on Pontiacs with EFI, but I can on BMW and Porsche.
The shop I work for has taken a number of the BMW 'M' 4-Valve Six-Cylinders and converted them to Weber carburetors. The difference in power output is unreal. The EFI doesn't even come close. There is a reduction in smoothness at part throttle and the engine is obviously more tempermental when cold, but HP and TQ are higher than even the motors with upgraded throttle bodies, injectors and ECU upgrades. Years ago, I also recall the Rochester Fuel Injected Corvette (375 HP) produced much less HP and TQ on the dyno than the carbureted (365 HP) version of the venerable 327. Obviously, EFI is all-around the best choice for driveability and economy, but I see some serious limits to its airflow potential in most applications. Additionally, when speaking of EFI on a Pontiac, most systems I have seen will not allow use of stock A/C. Why not just adapt the Tune Port Assembly from a SBC for use on the Pontiac? The port arrangement is similar and I am sure the angularity of the cylinder deck could be compensated for with a properly fabricated intake manifold. I personally, would like to see a 4V TBI Unit that would bolt on in place of the stock Q-Jet and allow use of stock A/C and Alternator Brackets. Just curious...Robert "If I had better junk in my garage, I know I could go faster." |
An intake base that would use the long runners of the Chevy TPI would reealy make a torquey Pontiac. It could take the larger aftermarket runners too. My Chevy buddies though found the stock runners on a 350 have to be shifted around 5000 for the best results due to the airflow and runner length where the power falls off. Still mid 12s with just a mild increased cam.Scoggins has come out with a base for the Vortec heads, maybe a Pontiac base!
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455Turbo:
EFI is cool but expensive. I have almost $6K in the fuel injection for my twin turbo 455. IMHO I'd only recommend a multipoint fuel injection system, I'd stay away from any form of throttle body injection. I will also add that getting the fuel injeciton dialed in is a lot of work. Plan on spending at least 4 hours on a chassis dyno to get things running right. As for cheap alternatives, the Holley and Edelbrock systems are likely to be the least expensive things out there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 1974 White Super Duty Trans Am ----------------------------- 1999 Red TA FireHawk #397 2002 Best: 11.68@116 NA (10.7@127 on the Juice!) http://home.comcast.net/~mctheriot/sd-plate.jpg |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Vaught:
(snip) Craig, if you go AFB on some of your systems you going to use Carter OEM carbs or the Edelbrock clone stuff? (Jon Hargrove does not care for the clone stuff but likes the Carter stuff). He told me one time he got some Carter stuff to work at over 20 psi boost pressures! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 20psi? That's impressive! I was definitely planning an AFB-type varient. The two slickest things about the old TurboFORCE setup was that 1) it fit with everything (A/C, etc, ex HD Alt) and 2) the aerodynamics of the air pressure bonnet were superior to anything else out there that time, maybe even now. There were 3 features of that bonnet design which resulted in superior performance. 1) the wedge-shaped "diffuser" inlet which smoothly expanded the pressurized air; 2) the "umbrella" shape underneath which mimic'd the HP air cleaner base shape and allowed the air to smoothly flow up and into the carb air horn; and 3) a small vertical vane over the air horn which killed the remaining "spin" in the air resulting in a uniform air pressure over the entire air horn. It'll be interesting to find out how that design approach works with the AFB-type and EFI. Craig Hendrickson, the "H" in H-O Racing Specialties. Now reviving the TurboFORCE kit. http://www.wallaceracing.com/TurboForce.html |
I sent these guys a link to this page.
http://www.tpis.com/ I'd like to see one of these " Mini Ram Intakes " on a Pontiac Mule 1973 Grand Prix SJ455 1969 GTO 428 |
To Mark T,
My issues are with throttle body injection (TBI). In my opinion the limiting factor with TBI is that it uses a wet flow manifold. Fuel will fall out of suspension and puddle in the manifold. Because of this TBI systems will always be inferior to multipoint fuel injection systems, which put the fuel injector as close to the intake valve as possible. To me TBI systems retain one of the major limitations of the carburetor in spite of their high cost. In the late 1970's and early 1980's American automobile manufacturers were forced to deal with ever stricter emissions laws. One of their first responses was the feedback carburetor. This used a computer, an oxygen sensor, and a solenoid valve in the carb to control fuel mixture. As emissions requirements got even more strict the feedback carb proved to be inadequate. The next, and logical step, was the throttle body injector. TBI replaced carbs and allowed for much better mixture control. Unfortunately they still relied on wet flow manifolds so the driveability wasn't great. Anyone who has compared side by side GM's 1984 Cross Fire Injected Corvette (throttle body) with the 1985 Tuned Port Injection (multi point injection) will understand the difference in performance. In the mid 80's GM and Ford got multi port injection right. Throttle response was back and performance levels were increasing. In my opinion TBI will never provide the driveability of multi point fuel injection. TBI is almost as expensive to implement as multipoint injection because it still requires a computer, sensors, fuel pump, filter and plumbing. For these reasons I feel that if someone is going to spend the money they should spend a little bit more and go for a multi point injection system. If not then save the money and stick with a carburetor. |
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robert Herndon:
I can't comment on Pontiacs with EFI, but I can on BMW and Porsche. The shop I work for has taken a number of the BMW 'M' 4-Valve Six-Cylinders and converted them to Weber carburetors. The difference in power output is unreal. The EFI doesn't even come close. There is a reduction in smoothness at part throttle and the engine is obviously more tempermental when cold, but HP and TQ are higher than even the motors with upgraded throttle bodies, injectors and ECU upgrades. Years ago, I also recall the Rochester Fuel Injected Corvette (375 HP) produced much less HP and TQ on the dyno than the carbureted (365 HP) version of the venerable 327. Obviously, EFI is all-around the best choice for driveability and economy, but I see some serious limits to its airflow potential in most applications. Additionally, when speaking of EFI on a Pontiac, most systems I have seen will not allow use of stock A/C. Why not just adapt the Tune Port Assembly from a SBC for use on the Pontiac? The port arrangement is similar and I am sure the angularity of the cylinder deck could be compensated for with a properly fabricated intake manifold. I personally, would like to see a 4V TBI Unit that would bolt on in place of the stock Q-Jet and allow use of stock A/C and Alternator Brackets. Just curious...Robert "If I had better junk in my garage, I know I could go faster."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Robert, those Webbers will give excellent torque & hp, but fuel economy will be cut almost in half (big problem for a manufacturer). They're temperamental to get right as well. I have a little background on them from Nissan Z inline 6 (L6) usage. I don't know much about the BMW electronics, but often times the early efi systems were very limited and not able to reprogram until later systems. If it has the flapper door air-flow-meter(AFM), that's a restriction as well. For instance the 81-83 turbo Zs (limited to about 250hp) are modified by reprogramming a later year ECU, replacing the flapper-door (AFM) with an MAF from a Ford Cobra to get above 300-350 hp. A/C can be adapted like anything else. If you use system with timing control via a crank trigger, A/C or electric fans can wack it out thru interference, but you just have to shield the trigger and you should be fine--unless I'm not thinking of something here. The sbc system adapted to a 400+cid low rpm torque developing Pontiac? Don't know about that one. You'd have to upgrade several items, so you might as well have a custom built system. Having bungs put in an aluminum intake isn't a big deal and would be worth the benefits. I would have no problem using salvaged injectors from another application as long as they were refreshed by a pro service like Marsh Injector Service (I think that's the name). Doug http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...a&ul=330607354 ----------------------------- [This message was edited by PonchoV8] www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb [This message was edited by PonchoV8 on December 14, 2003 at 01:14 PM.] |
As far as injectors, there a lot of guys with 4 and 6 cyl cars that upgrade to higher flowing ones and will almost give away the used, perfectly good, high flow injs. Since we have more cylinders, we don't have to have as high a cc flow per cyl as they do making them really good choices for us. You just have to find a couple sets (which is never a problem). I'd have them refreshed by Marsh Injector Service where they will give you a flow sheet for each injector before plugging them in.
Injs come in top feed or side feed applications and the fittings can be either barb or o-ring. A fuel rail is a minor issue as well. Arizona Speed and Marine sells it cheap. Doug http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...a&ul=330607354 ----------------------------- [This message was edited by PonchoV8] www.geocities.com/yqtnxnb |
These guys do some custom stuff as well.
http://force-efi.com/ The intake pictured isn't a Pontiac, does make you wonder though. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif A dual quad Edelbrock with EFI would be very trick http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif Mule 1973 Grand Prix SJ455 1969 GTO 428 |
I found a low cost alternative TBI. I met a guy at the junkyard today from Columbus GA. He has a website GM fuel injection
He claims one of the first cars he injected was a 68 lemans with a Pontiac 350. He sells a system for around 950. He also offers a book that tells how to do it yourself for $30. He told me it can be done with junkyard parts for around $350. Not port injection but well worth the cost. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif 69Firebird roundport/roller455 70Catalina 455 72Skylark Buick 455 89 Iroc 305 stock 192RWHP/263RWTQ I cant leave anything alone. |
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