I have wanted to buy a new GTO since it's introduction recently but could not because of several shortcomings, ones that could be readily addressed by Pontiac. To allow such a good car fail seems so unfair. I like this car, a lot, after test driving it and it's competitors, notably the Infiniti G35 coupe, BMW 3 series coupes, Mazda RX8, and viewed only the 05 Mustang GT at the NY International Auto Show.

My views about the GTO are also shared by nearly everyone that I have met at dealers with an interest in cars. Importantly, I had the opportunity to meet an owner of a GTO.........after spotting the only one seen in NJ, at a local shopping mall. I waited for the owner to return and spent the next 45 minutes listening to his praise and criticism of the car, we were of common mind about this car, and he admitted everyone else he know feels similarly ie why isn't Pontiac responding to their audience then????. Overall, this is a very comfortable, fast, and accommodating vehicle for four adults, rarely found in the competition. Unfortunately it is similarly saddled with some unacceptable qualities, causing the typical potential buyer to buy the competition in record numbers, while GTO sales will surely continue to decline.


The poor reception of the 04 GTO was very predictable, with the lack of Pontiac's initiatives to address the problems the real mystery. Given the GTO's absence for over 3 decades the back orders on such a great legacy car should have exceeded it's annual 18K projection ie 05 Mustang has projected annual sales in excess of 100K with more than 10K soft orders on the books already!! The competition has various common features or qualities, including the Holden Monaro, because it is what the typical car owner wants or expects, but not the GTO, why????. Fortunately, most of the needed changes to the GTO can be corrected with minimal capital resources, simply a recognition of the obvious by GM and then a quick commitment is required.

My simple but very telling impression about the 04 GTO began a few weeks ago, with a visit to my local Pontiac dealerships. What became immediately apparent is the 'brilliance' of Bob Lutz ie decontenting an already excellent Holden Monaro, then modifying it cosmetically to be less attractive by each and every change.

The potential of this car is great, just look at the Monaro, SEMA, and other sources whereby a few modifications resulted in a real 'looker.' The following suggested changes would reverse the all to common used sleeper expression by GTO owners and the masses of potential buyers that have rejected this car in favor of the competition. The needed transformation of this plain/dull vehicle into something that truly meets the expectations of it's audience is so obvious, yet Pontiac management sadly remains clueless.

Driving experience: Wonderful, great comfort, power, handling, room for 4 adults, and sensuous sounds to make the joy of driving real once again. Unfortunately it lacks stability control, and possesses a primative/poorly performing traction control system, the later begging for a quick replacement.With a Corvette engine and true dual exhaust system it's hard to imagine anything less than a sweet engine note, despite Pontiac's claim of laboring over the sound creation. It's emphasis of an independent rear suspension is also an overdone emphasis........no other performance or average economy family car has less, except the Mustang.

The SINGLE thing Pontiac/Lutz did do correct was the engine, it's brillant in this car. But even a simple transfer from a Corvette to the GTO could not be done without Pontiac's detracting from it, this time in the form of placing cheap silver plastic valve covers on the engine.

Interior: Overall good quality materials but with tons of feature deficiencies/omissions in a mid $30,000 automobile. Just a few examples are, no dead pedal, seat adjustments that move agonizingly slow, no heated seats (on an only leather interior) , no heated rear view mirrors, no side or head air bags, no sun roof, no single or dual climate controls, no satellite radio, fair/poorly rated audio system, steering wheel controls lack illumination, no rear seat heater ducts, no pass through or drop down rear seat, no safety/insurance collision ratings. Such massive 'oversights' ie cost containment/decontenting is just foolish in this market segment. These same features are contained in 90% of it's principal competitors for obvious reasons.........somehow GM thinks Americans want neither safety nor features, nor amenities............. not to offer the same as standard or optionally is simply ridiculous.

The trunk has been effectively half consumed by the relocation of the gas tank into the forward trunk, an unfortunate late safety recognition, reducing it to the smallest trunk in class, even the RX8 which is nearly 2 feet shorter overall!! Even a flat tire will not fit in the trunk.........be prepared to sit it on the beautiful leather interior. Why didn't GM do something as simple as recontouring the trunk floor pan to take advantage of this 18.5 gallon removal to expand the usable trunk volume?

The lack of attention to detail by Pontiac's mods are evident in EVERYTHING it changed from the Monaro as well. Plus, why not offer the very popular interior color choice tan/saddle.....or is a purple interior seemingly more popular according to Pontiac designers ie I understand purple is a Monaro chosen color, but THIS is the time Pontiac could be positively influential, for a change.

Exterior: Nearly all the mods Pontiac did make were ill conceived, transforming a stylish Monaro design into a plain unattractive GTO. A few observations:

Front-- Why do Holdens get HID (I have heard only) while US get ill adjusted halogens.............I nearly went off the road going 30 MPH at night during my test drive, running out past the low beams........and several other owners complain about the same problem, unbelievable!! Then there is the circa 1994 front grill design, no power image sculpured/bulging hood lines that such a performance car screams for. Hood scoops are passe/juvinille, desired by a small, diminishing, but vocal group of old Goat aficionados, not by mainstream potential buyers (does this mean GM is introducing them in 05??).

And what is going on with the several 'party' exterior colors available, yet few of the more popular American colors. For example medium silver gray, the #1 seller for 2003 by EVERY manufacturer and absent from the GTO palette.

Side -- Because the Monaro is a several year old design to be replaced entirely with a new one in a few years a much needed change in the sheet metal would not be feasible. However, the few changes Pontiac could have made and did were all for the worse. The very European/elegant side turn signals were replaced with stick-on GTO labels. The gorgeous Monaro 18 wheels were replaced with the most unappealing 17 wheel design imaginable. A carefully designed belt line trim strip, as seen in some SEMA magazines would add significant eye appeal for little cost. This car has tasteful lines, only requiring a few OEM add on enhancements, none of which GM did, or did well. Should nearly every buyer feel compelled to buy new wheels etc because of lack of basic design capabilities by the manufacturer? One only has to look at for example G35 and RX8 18 wheels and it's painfully obvious Pontiac is simply inept!

Rear-- Why would a standard equipment spoiler contain a second third brake light??? It's as if it were an after-market oversight.......and this was planned for 18K units by GM?...........another 'I don't believe it'!! To have a spoiler or not is debatable, by far most potential buyers preferring not to have one. Even the spoiler design is poor.........just look at the many after-market spoilers fitted on the Monaro at various websites will convince anyone of this.

And for the lack of exhaust dual splitters GM claim they didn't have the room or time to introduce it in 04 model, perhaps 05. Really?? With a car measuring nearly 73 inches wide GM couldn't figure out how to duct a 3 inch pipe into the rear of a car that had it's entire rear fuel tank removed/displaced, yet allegedly 'labored' over the exhaust sound?? The contour/skin of the rear bumper lacks any kind of design detail. I have seen several artist renderings and after-market rear bumper efforts that is truly beautiful, incorporating rear splitters etc. Just a little design inspiration and creativity could have transformed the entire rear profile into something attractive and deserving of such a performance car, instead we have the often quoted Cavalier look.

The masses of real potential buyers for this car wants something clean, stylish, a bit distinctive, not overly plain or claded/hood scooped...............just look at what the public is buying in the record selling BMW's, Infiniti's and Mazda's. Let's eliminate sleeper from the typical GTO vocabulary...........few if anyone wants to pay $34K for a plain performance/luxury vehicle.

Any competent car company could cost effectively correct these problems, and quickly. The question is whether GM will step up to the plate to preserve and expand it's historically rich market potential for a fine 4 seater performance car, or soon discount them through promotions to move the metal.

Oh yea, I would simply love to purchase one of the 'improved' GTOs, right now...........lets just hope GM is 'awake' and responsive, doing the right thing to perpetuate this car's legacy of greatness!!

Glenn Bayard

I have wanted to buy a new GTO since it's introduction recently but could not because of several shortcomings, ones that could be readily addressed by Pontiac. To allow such a good car fail seems so unfair. I like this car, a lot, after test driving it and it's competitors, notably the Infiniti G35 coupe, BMW 3 series coupes, Mazda RX8, and viewed only the 05 Mustang GT at the NY International Auto Show.

My views about the GTO are also shared by nearly everyone that I have met at dealers with an interest in cars. Importantly, I had the opportunity to meet an owner of a GTO.........after spotting the only one seen in NJ, at a local shopping mall. I waited for the owner to return and spent the next 45 minutes listening to his praise and criticism of the car, we were of common mind about this car, and he admitted everyone else he know feels similarly ie why isn't Pontiac responding to their audience then????. Overall, this is a very comfortable, fast, and accommodating vehicle for four adults, rarely found in the competition. Unfortunately it is similarly saddled with some unacceptable qualities, causing the typical potential buyer to buy the competition in record numbers, while GTO sales will surely continue to decline.


The poor reception of the 04 GTO was very predictable, with the lack of Pontiac's initiatives to address the problems the real mystery. Given the GTO's absence for over 3 decades the back orders on such a great legacy car should have exceeded it's annual 18K projection ie 05 Mustang has projected annual sales in excess of 100K with more than 10K soft orders on the books already!! The competition has various common features or qualities, including the Holden Monaro, because it is what the typical car owner wants or expects, but not the GTO, why????. Fortunately, most of the needed changes to the GTO can be corrected with minimal capital resources, simply a recognition of the obvious by GM and then a quick commitment is required.

My simple but very telling impression about the 04 GTO began a few weeks ago, with a visit to my local Pontiac dealerships. What became immediately apparent is the 'brilliance' of Bob Lutz ie decontenting an already excellent Holden Monaro, then modifying it cosmetically to be less attractive by each and every change.

The potential of this car is great, just look at the Monaro, SEMA, and other sources whereby a few modifications resulted in a real 'looker.' The following suggested changes would reverse the all to common used sleeper expression by GTO owners and the masses of potential buyers that have rejected this car in favor of the competition. The needed transformation of this plain/dull vehicle into something that truly meets the expectations of it's audience is so obvious, yet Pontiac management sadly remains clueless.

Driving experience: Wonderful, great comfort, power, handling, room for 4 adults, and sensuous sounds to make the joy of driving real once again. Unfortunately it lacks stability control, and possesses a primative/poorly performing traction control system, the later begging for a quick replacement.With a Corvette engine and true dual exhaust system it's hard to imagine anything less than a sweet engine note, despite Pontiac's claim of laboring over the sound creation. It's emphasis of an independent rear suspension is also an overdone emphasis........no other performance or average economy family car has less, except the Mustang.

The SINGLE thing Pontiac/Lutz did do correct was the engine, it's brillant in this car. But even a simple transfer from a Corvette to the GTO could not be done without Pontiac's detracting from it, this time in the form of placing cheap silver plastic valve covers on the engine.

Interior: Overall good quality materials but with tons of feature deficiencies/omissions in a mid $30,000 automobile. Just a few examples are, no dead pedal, seat adjustments that move agonizingly slow, no heated seats (on an only leather interior) , no heated rear view mirrors, no side or head air bags, no sun roof, no single or dual climate controls, no satellite radio, fair/poorly rated audio system, steering wheel controls lack illumination, no rear seat heater ducts, no pass through or drop down rear seat, no safety/insurance collision ratings. Such massive 'oversights' ie cost containment/decontenting is just foolish in this market segment. These same features are contained in 90% of it's principal competitors for obvious reasons.........somehow GM thinks Americans want neither safety nor features, nor amenities............. not to offer the same as standard or optionally is simply ridiculous.

The trunk has been effectively half consumed by the relocation of the gas tank into the forward trunk, an unfortunate late safety recognition, reducing it to the smallest trunk in class, even the RX8 which is nearly 2 feet shorter overall!! Even a flat tire will not fit in the trunk.........be prepared to sit it on the beautiful leather interior. Why didn't GM do something as simple as recontouring the trunk floor pan to take advantage of this 18.5 gallon removal to expand the usable trunk volume?

The lack of attention to detail by Pontiac's mods are evident in EVERYTHING it changed from the Monaro as well. Plus, why not offer the very popular interior color choice tan/saddle.....or is a purple interior seemingly more popular according to Pontiac designers ie I understand purple is a Monaro chosen color, but THIS is the time Pontiac could be positively influential, for a change.

Exterior: Nearly all the mods Pontiac did make were ill conceived, transforming a stylish Monaro design into a plain unattractive GTO. A few observations:

Front-- Why do Holdens get HID (I have heard only) while US get ill adjusted halogens.............I nearly went off the road going 30 MPH at night during my test drive, running out past the low beams........and several other owners complain about the same problem, unbelievable!! Then there is the circa 1994 front grill design, no power image sculpured/bulging hood lines that such a performance car screams for. Hood scoops are passe/juvinille, desired by a small, diminishing, but vocal group of old Goat aficionados, not by mainstream potential buyers (does this mean GM is introducing them in 05??).

And what is going on with the several 'party' exterior colors available, yet few of the more popular American colors. For example medium silver gray, the #1 seller for 2003 by EVERY manufacturer and absent from the GTO palette.

Side -- Because the Monaro is a several year old design to be replaced entirely with a new one in a few years a much needed change in the sheet metal would not be feasible. However, the few changes Pontiac could have made and did were all for the worse. The very European/elegant side turn signals were replaced with stick-on GTO labels. The gorgeous Monaro 18 wheels were replaced with the most unappealing 17 wheel design imaginable. A carefully designed belt line trim strip, as seen in some SEMA magazines would add significant eye appeal for little cost. This car has tasteful lines, only requiring a few OEM add on enhancements, none of which GM did, or did well. Should nearly every buyer feel compelled to buy new wheels etc because of lack of basic design capabilities by the manufacturer? One only has to look at for example G35 and RX8 18 wheels and it's painfully obvious Pontiac is simply inept!

Rear-- Why would a standard equipment spoiler contain a second third brake light??? It's as if it were an after-market oversight.......and this was planned for 18K units by GM?...........another 'I don't believe it'!! To have a spoiler or not is debatable, by far most potential buyers preferring not to have one. Even the spoiler design is poor.........just look at the many after-market spoilers fitted on the Monaro at various websites will convince anyone of this.

And for the lack of exhaust dual splitters GM claim they didn't have the room or time to introduce it in 04 model, perhaps 05. Really?? With a car measuring nearly 73 inches wide GM couldn't figure out how to duct a 3 inch pipe into the rear of a car that had it's entire rear fuel tank removed/displaced, yet allegedly 'labored' over the exhaust sound?? The contour/skin of the rear bumper lacks any kind of design detail. I have seen several artist renderings and after-market rear bumper efforts that is truly beautiful, incorporating rear splitters etc. Just a little design inspiration and creativity could have transformed the entire rear profile into something attractive and deserving of such a performance car, instead we have the often quoted Cavalier look.

The masses of real potential buyers for this car wants something clean, stylish, a bit distinctive, not overly plain or claded/hood scooped...............just look at what the public is buying in the record selling BMW's, Infiniti's and Mazda's. Let's eliminate sleeper from the typical GTO vocabulary...........few if anyone wants to pay $34K for a plain performance/luxury vehicle.

Any competent car company could cost effectively correct these problems, and quickly. The question is whether GM will step up to the plate to preserve and expand it's historically rich market potential for a fine 4 seater performance car, or soon discount them through promotions to move the metal.

Oh yea, I would simply love to purchase one of the 'improved' GTOs, right now...........lets just hope GM is 'awake' and responsive, doing the right thing to perpetuate this car's legacy of greatness!!

Glenn Bayard

Glenn

Why don't you tell us how you really feel...

I could discuss many of your points, but I'll settle for just one.

You rant on the colors - both interior and exterior.

You want a medium silver/gray exterior color - they have a silver. Evidently you don't like purple, but Cosmos Purple is very close the the 1967 GTO color called Plum Mist.

Evidently you like a tan/saddle interior. Personally I think they're ugly. What's wrong with a purple interior in a purple car?

You have some points, but they're lost in the details.

Well, Mr Bayard I guess we can safely assume that you are not impressed with the new Goat!
However I do not believe that you speak for the masses as your posting would suggest.
As an owner of a red/black M6 I am more than pleased with the performance and looks of this beauty.
Every other owner and jealous on-looker that I have met has shared my enthusiasm for this remarkable car.
Only this morning I came up along side a Z06 convertible at some stop lights, he had the top down, he glanced over and gave me two thumbs up. Even Vette drivers appreciate the power and styling of the new GTO.
I guess it would be boring if we all had the same points of view so I whole heartedly disagree with every "put down" comment that you make about this fantastic addition to the Pontiac stable.
BTW I traded in a 2002 TA WS6 for my GTO. Ther goat blows it away in every aspect.

I think the question is can you be saved?

I actually think the GTO is a potentialy great car, with a few very serious shortcomings.........sorry but didn't want to offend anyone. However, desirability, attractiveness, competitiveness etc is ALWAYS measured in sales success. Plus, given the GTOs absence for over 3 decade the potential pent up demand SHOULD have been enormous, but recently my local Pontiac dealerships have GTOs accumulating on their lots for 4 weeks and growing, offering $1500 discounts etc........hardly a description of a desirable car.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by glenn bayard:
Given the GTO's absence for over 3 decades the back orders on such a great legacy car should have exceeded it's annual 18K projection ie 05 Mustang has projected annual sales in excess of 100K with more than 10K soft orders on the books already!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just another point here Glenn...

Ford sold over 153,000 Mustangs in 2003, so only projecting sales of over 100,000 in 2005 is potentially a drop in sales.

Of course, how many of those Mustangs have 350 HP V8's?

How many have 6 cylinder powerplants?

Betcha more 6 cylinders are built than 350 HP V8's... Who cares how many of the schoolmarm's buy a 6 banger.

We're talking V8 RWD performance cars here.

I'm sorry, perhaps I was ambiguous about the Mustang 05 sales projections. For 05 model year projections are 220,000 units, with over 100,000 units the first several months. I am not interested in a Mustang, really want to buy an improved 05 GTO, and certainly don't want to get into a debate about which car is better. Personally, the GTo rides, handles, and peforms wonderfully, as I cited, only wishing to make a 'blind Pontiac/GM' aware of what mainstream buyers want to see in changes. Perhaps you will be enlighted to what I have said if you read my other post 'GTO Sales Failure', by the Detroit News, May 24, 04, quoting several automotive authorities. Have a good day.

Now that I am seeing discounts, I wonder what will happen. In Michigan, dealers are taking 2 to 3 K off and even a dealer here in Columbus is discounting 3200. Mind you this is the same dealer that was trying to sell rights to buy on Ebay and then had 3K LOA and now is discounting 3K. My guess, if they would have just sold them for sticker or less from the get go we'd be in a different situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozzy
Only this morning I came up along side a Z06 convertible at some stop lights, he had the top down, he glanced over and gave me two thumbs up. Even Vette drivers appreciate the power and styling of the new GTO.
Are you sure that was a Vette driver impressed with the styling. There weren't any Z06 convertibles made?

"Are you sure that was a Vette driver impressed with the styling. There weren't any Z06 convertibles made?"

Vette's are not my forte, but I am sure it was convertible Corvette. The model? .... I was obviously mistaken.

I went for a ride in one saturday and I will say I was VERY impressed. It was BMW like but with balls.

I am seriously considering buying one. Now with the discount, I will buy an aftermarket hood to give it some added looks. I trust it will be o.k.for everyday driving. I am sick of running with the pack i.e. mustangs everywere. The GTO is different and classy at the same time. I like it.

Soupman,
You're right. It is different and classy at the same time. Yet at the same time it is the ultimate aftermarket car. I like the fact that it is not in your face, and I'll keep mine the way it is because that's the way I like it. It also gives you the option of adding whatever you want. It would take just a few things to make this more attention getting (ie hood scoops, dual sided back pipes) for those who want it. It has the performance to do it at the track. Just take off some weight. I used to own a Harley Road King, so I know aftermarket advantages. I also owned a Suzuki Hayabusa, so I know speed. This car gives an adult a car he can take to a black tie affair and a track. It is the best of both worlds. As for reliability, I drive mine to work everyday, 30 miles, have 5700 miles on it, and have not a single complaint. In my humble opinion, I am just happy that I was lucky to be in the market when this car came out.

Black/red 6M

Hi there,

I'm from Australia, and I read through your little bit, the Monaro here is a old muscle car from the 60's and 70's same as the GTO was over there, and so the new car has been designed and made to this old muscle car spec, To me the boss was probably told that and thought hey if that's the go here(Australia) then if I bring this over there(USA) this might just re-start the old GTO car thing again.

So my thinking wasn't that this isn't meant to be a top of the line all extra's added nothing left out type of car, but a pure muscle car that only provides the bits to help you get around and lay the power down when you need to and drops the rest of the crap at the crub.

To also let you know Holden does but doesn't directly make the Monaro, HSV or Holden Special Vehicles does, HSV only makes so many cars per year here they make about 5 different types of HSV car, and they also make the Monaro and the GTO for the US market.

Becuse of the above they can only provide so many units per year of any single car, HSV upgrade normal Holden cars here in Australia that is their normal market.

Also because the car is made in Australia and then shipped to the USA, we in Australia don't have all the little do-da's that you are talking about, heating ducting ever where is a bit pointless when temps can be over 40C or 80-100F not sure of the temp for there. Also most of the other little features you also talk about arn't put into cars here also. so you won't get female voices bitching about the lights being on or the door being open etc.

After reading through your post, it came across to me that you should really look at another car because it comes across to me that your really after something that will baby sit you while you turn the steering wheel around, The monaro and GTO is for speeding around the joint or for cursing around if you wish as well, I guess it's more about focusing on the car it self rather than it doing everything for you.

The looks of the GTO arn't the same as the Monaro and I have seen heaps driving around and they go quite well.

Again in reply to your requested changes etc, The car isn't made nor designed by American's Sure they would have had enough input so that the car would have passed the tests needed to get the GTO on the roads over there.

That is the reason why you don't see bonnet scoops etc, personally I don't think the bonnet scoops do all that much for the GTO, it only adds rice to the car.

If you really really wanted to change the look of the car to something else there is body kits here in Australia you can get, also HSV supply body kits and parts that would fit the Monaro/GTO, also after market companies sell parts/upgrade stages/bodykits for holden cars here.

Your statement about people buying more other cars because the GTO isn't up to spec wouldn't seem right to me, it's probably more due to the fact that they are after a car that has things like you want and when the GTO doesn't provide these things they go looking else where, not everyone is after a muscle car anymore, so they buy the car that they find better fits their needs.

This in no way means the GTO is utter crap I wouldn't say the GTO is a make or break car for GM, you'll most likly find its a car for people who would like a nice car that goes fast when you want it and that is what ALL muscle cars are about, They arn't sports cars they are play toys for the road.

Thank you for enlightening me about your Monaro/our GTO. I understand what you explained, and appreciate it. However, their seems to be somewhat of a conflict to what you say and what I see in the GTO. The GTO is luxurious, ride, handling, quality is right up there with BMW. Why then is the 'options' so scant, or the standard features so lacking?????? I DID read the Monaro has many of the features that are lacking in the GTO.....yet you deny this, I guess I'm confused, because if GM deleted side air bags etc for the US they are bloomy CRAZY.......... Thanks again for your input. PS I bought about 3 years ago a Fischer and Paytel washer, and it is the BEST IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!! Even our much loved and excellent Maytag doesn't compete with it, so you Aussies and New Zealanders know a lot about engineering while serving a much smaller market than here in the US. PS PS I plan to visit your country soon on vacation.......can't wait to rent a Monaro!!!! Take care. Glenn<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zagan:
Hi there,

I'm from Australia, and I read through your little bit, the Monaro here is a old muscle car from the 60's and 70's same as the GTO was over there, and so the new car has been designed and made to this old muscle car spec, To me the boss was probably told that and thought hey if that's the go here(Australia) then if I bring this over there(USA) this might just re-start the old GTO car thing again.

So my thinking wasn't that this isn't meant to be a top of the line all extra's added nothing left out type of car, but a pure muscle car that only provides the bits to help you get around and lay the power down when you need to and drops the rest of the crap at the crub.

To also let you know Holden does but doesn't directly make the Monaro, HSV or Holden Special Vehicles does, HSV only makes so many cars per year here they make about 5 different types of HSV car, and they also make the Monaro and the GTO for the US market.

Becuse of the above they can only provide so many units per year of any single car, HSV upgrade normal Holden cars here in Australia that is their normal market.

Also because the car is made in Australia and then shipped to the USA, we in Australia don't have all the little do-da's that you are talking about, heating ducting ever where is a bit pointless when temps can be over 40C or 80-100F not sure of the temp for there. Also most of the other little features you also talk about arn't put into cars here also. so you won't get female voices bitching about the lights being on or the door being open etc.

After reading through your post, it came across to me that you should really look at another car because it comes across to me that your really after something that will baby sit you while you turn the steering wheel around, The monaro and GTO is for speeding around the joint or for cursing around if you wish as well, I guess it's more about focusing on the car it self rather than it doing everything for you.

The looks of the GTO arn't the same as the Monaro and I have seen heaps driving around and they go quite well.

Again in reply to your requested changes etc, The car isn't made nor designed by American's Sure they would have had enough input so that the car would have passed the tests needed to get the GTO on the roads over there.

That is the reason why you don't see bonnet scoops etc, personally I don't think the bonnet scoops do all that much for the GTO, it only adds rice to the car.

If you really really wanted to change the look of the car to something else there is body kits here in Australia you can get, also HSV supply body kits and parts that would fit the Monaro/GTO, also after market companies sell parts/upgrade stages/bodykits for holden cars here.

Your statement about people buying more other cars because the GTO isn't up to spec wouldn't seem right to me, it's probably more due to the fact that they are after a car that has things like you want and when the GTO doesn't provide these things they go looking else where, not everyone is after a muscle car anymore, so they buy the car that they find better fits their needs.

This in no way means the GTO is utter crap I wouldn't say the GTO is a make or break car for GM, you'll most likly find its a car for people who would like a nice car that goes fast when you want it and that is what ALL muscle cars are about, They arn't sports cars they are play toys for the road. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glenn,

I have a 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. I'm looking to get rid of it in the next two or three years and have settled on the GTO as the vehicle of choice. Why? Performance and convenience. I'm 6'4 and just can't squeeze myself comfortably into BMWs.

Let me address some specific points you made about the interior:

<span class="ev_code_RED">... tons of feature deficiencies/omissions...no dead pedal</span>
(I don't think I'll miss it much as I rarely use the one in my Grand Prix)
<span class="ev_code_RED">seat adjustments that move agonizingly slow</span>
(not a problem since I'm the only one who will be driving it and I doubt I'll ever have anyone in the back seats)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no heated seats (on an only leather interior) , no heated rear view mirrors</span>
( I live in sunny California and have used my Grand Prix's seat heater exactly zero times in 5.5 years)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no side or head air bags</span>
(I'm fine without them - just more parts to break down or replace)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no sun roof</span>
(sunroofs eat into headroom, which is at a premium for a guy my size)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no single or dual climate controls</span>
(the dual zone in my Grand Prix has always been a source of consternation for the front seat passenger and its practical use is almost nil)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no satellite radio</span>
(why would I want to subscribe to the radio??? I have a huge CD collection)
<span class="ev_code_RED">fair/poorly rated audio system</span>
it sounded okay to me when I checked it out during the GM Auto Show in Motion autocross runs I did in the GTO)
<span class="ev_code_RED">steering wheel controls lack illumination</span>
(talk about picking nits! The steering wheel controls on my Grand Prix work only intermittently after 5 years, anyway, including the lighting going out on them)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no rear seat heater ducts</span>
(nobody's gonna be back there and my car won't see cold weather, anyway)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no pass through or drop down rear seat</span>
(I'll survive, as I have never had cargo that required it with the Grand Prix)
<span class="ev_code_RED">no safety/insurance collision ratings </span>
(What the heck do you mean? Doesn't every car have to pass federal crash safety standards to be sold here in the USA?)
<span class="ev_code_RED">Such massive 'oversights' ie cost containment/decontenting is just foolish in this market segment.</span>
This may be true, but it makes the car more appealing to me. If I hapen to be a smaller target market than GM had in mind, well... they'll sell less GTOs. Hopefully that will bring the price down by the time I'm ready to buy.

The only option I would add for internals to the GTO is a HUD. I love it in my Grand Prix and would hate to lose it.

Other options would be a fully-defeatable traction control (which I would leave off all the time except when driving in rainy weather) and a more advanced ABS system.

I have to admit that I am somewhat frustrated with the quality of my Grand Prix. It now has about 105,000 miles on it and I have had two power window actuators go out (was there something wrong with hand cranked windows that I missed?), the PCM burn out at 49,000 miles (caused by a failure in the emissions control equipment, so it was covered under warranty), two "premium" sound packages with CD players that don't load discs properly (you'd think AC Delco would know how to make a freakin' radio by now), a climate control unit that makes cricket chirping sounds all the time and has since it was brand new... you get the picture.

So... why would I want GM to add features that it may not be able ot pull off well?

I had been looking at a G35, but when I climbed in to check it out, I saw too many electronic gizmos that will require repair or replacement. I also didn't care for the ergonomics of the interior.

The Acura TL is a nice piece, but... it just doesn't ignite my passion like the GTO does. Maybe I like the GTO's styling because it reminds me of my current car, which I think has a subtle sportiness to it. I like the lines.

Subaru WRX? Mitsubishi Lancer? God, they're awful looking cars. Undeniable performance, though...

A nice used C5 Corvette coupe might be nice, but I really want a new car.

All this having been said, I plan on purchasing a GTO and adding an aftermarket hood with scoops (I like the MPD hood: http://www.mpd-inc.net/GTO.htm ). I am also planning on switching to a dual/dual exhaust if someone comes out with an attractive, somewhat subtle rear fascia, putting a new, grippier wheel/tire package on it and, most importantly, bolting on the Vette ZO6 LS1's heads, camshaft and whatever else needed to up the HP to the 400 range.

This'll put me up into the extra $10,000 range, but there's nothing in the 40 - 45k range that really interests me.

The GTO is the car I have been dreaming of owning for literally years, ever since I first visited a Holden website in 1999. I looked at the Monaro coupe concept then sketched a version with a 1970 GTO "bird's beak" grill.

In 2000, I sent e-mails to Pontiac and all the car magazines telling them how cool it would be to have the Monaro in the USA as a GTO. Heck, I even wrote Cadillac and urged them to build a high-performance variant of the Catera using the LS1 in hopes of seeing something like the 2004 GTO on these shores.

I visited Jim Wanger's garage a few years ago to see the Holden HSV GTS he had shipped over from down under.

I was very, very excited when Lutz made the Big Announcement. Finally, my "dream car" was actually going to be here.

I'm saying all this to let you know I am more than a little biased. Yes, the GTO could stand more features to compete with luxury cars. But I worry that there woudl be no "delete" option on all that superfluous stuff. I don't want or need a single thing that the GTO is supposedly missing in the way of refinement.

Keep your DVD navigation system; I'll check the map before I leave or pull over to look at it. Hands free bluetooth cell phone technology? I turn my phone off when driving to be a safe driver. MP3 player and satellite radio? I don't have any MP3 tehnology and anyway, I like to listen to what I want to listen to when I want to hear it.

Give me a capable chassis, a powerful engine and a comfortable seat and I don't care how bland the car looks, as long as it's not Aztek-ugly.

well said.

And BTW the GTO DOES have rear seat heating ducts. They are mounted at the rear of the console.

Never knew the 1998 Grand Prix had the Head-Up Display, I know my dad's 2004 Grand Prix GTP Competition Group has it(green light at the bottom of the wind shield is what I'm referring to).

Yes, it was an option on the 1998 GP.

Charlzm makes alot of great points about Glens complaints of lack of "creature" comforts. I thought I was the only one who frowns everytime I hear about the new added gadgets that come standard on new cars. I too wish for just manual windows, power windows are a pain in the butt and less realable than the no tech manual windows. Same with power door locks. I leave my keys in the car when its in the driveway and at work. I only remove the keys when I park in a store parking lot and very seldom do I ever lock the car up. I once had someone get something from my car and hit the door lock and close the door. My keys were in the car. Nice, $50.00 later I got the doors opened again. As far as I'm concerned they could of decontented the GTO more. I had to swallow some of my desires when I looked at the new GTO with intent on a possible purchase.

But in the end I walked away for other reasons.
1) arrogant sales force. I couldn't test drive with out buying. Since the time this happened I was informed that the reason they did not let me drive the car was it was in the showroom. Its a hassle to bring it out for a test drive. Why didn't the salesman tell me that?
2) Not enough trunk and interior room for my tastes. I use my cars for more than just hauling my butt around.

After I sat and thought about it I'm glad I passed on it. Its really not practical enough for me. If they made a station wagon version I would be much more interested. Looked at the Dodge magnum, but it is lacking my must have #1 item, a manual transmission.

Insidently the dealer I visited about 2 months ago still has the only GTO he has been alotted. He has taken it to a cruise night at the local Mickey D's when it was GTO night, has had it sitting outside where you can see it from the road and has "see the new GTO" going across his electronic marque for weeks now and its still not sold.

I would think it would of sold quicker than this. I think its lack of stand out styling has hurt its sales. Personally this would not stop me from buying. On paper its better than most cars that one would think its competing against. I think that the performace end really sells very few cars, look at mustang sales, lots of V-6 cars. Vets sell not for the performance end of it but they sell cause they are Vets. Kinda like Harleys. Lots of used vets for sale with low milage, guys buy one cause they always wanted a new vet and after they drive one for a while they realize how impractical they are. Sad to say but styling sells.

I don't understand the cry for hood scoops either. Lots of people saying I'll buy when they add hood scoops or what no hood scoops? If thats the only sticking point stopping a purchase I think those people need to reevalute what they are buying and why. seems like they are buying for styling only to me.

Glenn,

Judging by your complaints, I don't think you really understand the concept of a muscle car at all. A muscle car is minimalist by nature - if it doesn't help performance, then you don't put it on the car.

If I asked you to name the all time best muscle cars, what would you say? An L88 corvette? How about the Buick wildcat? Or &lt;gasp&gt; the Shelby cobra...

All of these cars were about performance first, and keeping your butt warm on a cold day second. All the crap you mentioned, particularly the stereo, just adds weight. Modern cars have to handle and stop as well as go fast, and while the numbers on the GTO are a little down, the fact that the Monaro already has an aftermarket will take care of a lot of that.

Personally, I LIKE the sleeper look - my current daily driver is a 96 impala, completely stock on the outside. I even like the single dual exhaust - the twin dual is a little too much of a giveaway that the car is something more than a fwd 6-banger. I do think the wheels need some work, though. They look too small for the body.

And I absolutely DO NOT want hood scoops. Too boy racer, IMHO.

I'm also not real impressed with the pontiac front end, either. You're right about GM's styling department. I've had the opinion for years now that it was the f-car's styling that did it in - it really sucked! GM's styling department has got to be the worst of any automaker's on the planet.

The 04 GTO is definitely going through some teething problems, but I think once GM gets the details worked out it will definitely take off.

I don't like the wheels on the new car, but I saw a car at a local dealer's tonight that had some beautiful chrome 5-spokes. Looked a little like Fiskes. They were also wider than the stockers, and stuck out a little bit from the fenders. Really gave the car some muscularity without looking ricey, the way hood scoops would.

I really think the car will catch on once they correct some of the styling cues. The basic car absolutely kicks ass.

Sincerely,

Randy Stone

Most of the comments above have a lot of merit, but the heading of this title is about survival. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif

If GM does not address the issues in front of it, including cosmetics, this car will not make it very long. And if they address them too late, it will surely be a flop no matter how fast it is. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

If you are going to fill a market nitch, attack it, don't just sit back and provide the minimal, that is embarrassing to it's heritage. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
Most of the comments above have a lot of merit, but the heading of this title is about survival. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif

If GM does not address the issues in front of it, including cosmetics, this car will not make it very long. And if they address them too late, it will surely be a flop no matter how fast it is. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

If you are going to fill a market nitch, attack it, don't just sit back and provide the minimal, that is embarrassing to it's heritage. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For once I believe I agree with you. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

You guys are forgetting something. GM is notorious for lame first-year sales. I'm an impala owner. Take the '91 caprice, since I'm familiar with that. All the car mags hated it - said it looked like a bloated whale. And it did - fender skirts and skinny wheels on that monster looked ridiculous.

But in '92 a GM engineer took one and blacked out all the chrome, cut the fender skirts so he could add wider tires, lowered it, added five-spoke wheels, and an LT1. First-year sales were around 6,000. Second year sales hit 40,000, and the final year sold well over 60,000 impala ss's, after which GM discontinued the platform so they could build more trucks.

So don't give up hope yet!

GM has an issue with that canceling thing. Notorius quite frankly, let's hope when the new GTO is prrrfect in at least most eyes they don't chop it.

For once I believe I agree with you.

Quick, someone check Nick for fever... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

Nick, I think drastic changes are needed, you know that. I pray that they happen soon enough to keep the car comming, I really do.

This rushed to the consumer vehicle was not a good idea, especially with the GTO badge put on it to increase sales.

Looking at some of the future drawings, you may see me in one in the next two years, if thing go right.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

All I can say is the last great GTO was in 1970. Pontiac should just let the GTO rest in peace. It's not just about being fast but the Goat was a beautiful yet mean looking machine. Wanna GTO? Then go buy the real deal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
Most of the comments above have a lot of merit, but the heading of this title is about survival. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_rolleyes.gif

If GM does not address the issues in front of it, including cosmetics, this car will not make it very long. And if they address them too late, it will surely be a flop no matter how fast it is. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

If you are going to fill a market nitch, attack it, don't just sit back and provide the minimal, that is embarrassing to it's heritage. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could not agree more. Dam, I'm finally agreeing with you. But your are absoulutely
right! Go after the market big time. GM
has done terrible job of marketing this car.
Alot of people don't even know it has a V8 for
crying out loud.

I could not agree more. Dam, I'm finally agreeing with you.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif The fever must be spreading... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rainmaker612:
Wanna GTO? Then go buy the real deal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying we should all buy a Ferrari??? Because aint that the "original" & "real deal"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rainmaker612:
All I can say is the last great GTO was in 1970. Pontiac should just let the GTO rest in peace. It's not just about being fast but the Goat was a beautiful yet mean looking machine. Wanna GTO? Then go buy the real deal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh brother. You must be really old.

LOL!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
_For once I believe I agree with you. _

Quick, someone check Nick for fever... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

Nick, I think drastic changes are needed, you know that. I pray that they happen soon enough to keep the car comming, I really do.

This rushed to the consumer vehicle was not a good idea, especially with the GTO badge put on it to increase sales.

Looking at some of the future drawings, you may see me in one in the next two years, if thing go right.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look forward to that day when you and the rest of the skeptics are on board.

What's that gonna take though? Power, scoops, split dual are all a done deal. What's it gonna take?

What's that gonna take though?

Humbler, for me it's gonna take a car that has great big balls, more than any other anywhere near it's price zone, that stares at you from a parking lot standing still and says don't even think about messing with me.

That is what a true GTO was all about.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

It's an opinion if the car looks like "Don't
even think about messing with me". Which I tend to agree with you that it did look like that, but there were plenty of cars faster than
the old goats including the new goat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
_What's that gonna take though?_

Humbler, for me it's gonna take a car that has great big balls, more than any other anywhere near it's price zone, that stares at you from a parking lot standing still and says don't even think about messing with me.

That is what a true GTO was all about.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know...I really like sleepers. Impalas are known now for being relatively quick for their size (mine has run a best of 11.99), but there are still lots of squirts out there that equate 4 doors with grandpa's car, and it just makes it that much more fun to hand their butts to them. It also makes it a lot easier to suck in the ignorant.

I do think the GTO needs some changes (like going back to the Monaro front end) to really look good. But I prefer a pinstriped suit and Cartier watch kind of look as opposed to warmup suits and gold chains.

Anyway, I never mastered the walk that goes with the warmups - every time I try to swing my arm like that, I hit myself in the nuts... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

I really like sleepers

Then they should have called this one an Impala. The GTO image is not one of a sleeper, at least in the past it wasn't... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
_I really like sleepers_

Then they should have called this one an Impala. The GTO image is not one of a sleeper, at least in the past it wasn't... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They sure should've! We knew back in 2002 that GM was thinking about bringing over the Monaro, and we were really gunning for them to rebadge it as an impala. Jon Moss let it 'slip' at a national gathering. Instead, they stick an SS on the fwd version and called the Monaro a GTO. Judging by the reception you and the rest of the old heads gave it, Lutz should have made it a chevy instead of a goat. WE sure would have appreciated it!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stonebreaker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
_What's that gonna take though?_

Humbler, for me it's gonna take a car that has great big balls, more than any other anywhere near it's price zone, that stares at you from a parking lot standing still and says don't even think about messing with me.

That is what a true GTO was all about.... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know...I really like sleepers. Impalas are known now for being relatively quick for their size (mine has run a best of 11.99), but there are still lots of squirts out there that equate 4 doors with grandpa's car, and it just makes it that much more fun to hand their butts to them. It also makes it a lot easier to suck in the ignorant.

I do think the GTO needs some changes (like going back to the Monaro front end) to really look good. But I prefer a pinstriped suit and Cartier watch kind of look as opposed to warmup suits and gold chains.

Anyway, I never mastered the walk that goes with the warmups - every time I try to swing my arm like that, I hit myself in the nuts... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wanna sleeper? buy a Serta http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KVman389:
wanna sleeper? buy a Serta http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I think I might put that one on the tag! Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stonebreaker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KVman389:
wanna sleeper? buy a Serta http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I think I might put that one on the tag! Thanks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your welcome.

I pretty much agree with just about everything Glenn has said, and it pains me to say so. Like most of you I am a diehard Pontiac fan. I read all of the posts about the 2004 GTO not because I want to revel in its shortcomings, but because I hope to get some hint of the car's future (if there is one). I've owned three Firebirds, including the Trans Am I bought new in 1995. I currently drive a BMW 328i/5 speed - in essence I AM PONTIAC'S STATED TARGET CUSTOMER FOR THIS CAR!!! If they can't get a guy with a love for Pontiacs looking for an American sport coupe with a European driving feel like me to buy their car then there is a real problem here. The BMW 330 is a classicaly good looking ride. The G35 is more edgy. Pontiac could have chosen to go either direction, but chose neither. Buyers like me want it to look GOOD - edgy or classic, either way. I'll keep reading the posts because I WANT TO WANT THIS CAR! My wife is frankly sick of hearing me talk about it!

I'll keep reading the posts because I WANT TO WANT THIS CAR!

Well put...just can't get aroused over the '04, and hoping for the '05 to change my mind.. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CAB:
I pretty much agree with just about everything Glenn has said, and it pains me to say so. Like most of you I am a diehard Pontiac fan. I read all of the posts about the 2004 GTO not because I want to revel in its shortcomings, but because I hope to get some hint of the car's future (if there is one). I've owned three Firebirds, including the Trans Am I bought new in 1995. I currently drive a BMW 328i/5 speed - in essence I AM PONTIAC'S STATED TARGET CUSTOMER FOR THIS CAR!!! If they can't get a guy with a love for Pontiacs looking for an American sport coupe with a European driving feel like me to buy their car then there is a real problem here. The BMW 330 is a classicaly good looking ride. The G35 is more edgy. Pontiac could have chosen to go either direction, but chose neither. Buyers like me want it to look GOOD - edgy or classic, either way. I'll keep reading the posts because I WANT TO WANT THIS CAR! My wife is frankly sick of hearing me talk about it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go drive it and you'll find your BMW sitting at the Pontiac dealership in the new trade in area!!

Howie - I'd like to, but the local dealer won't let me test drive one and I'm not enamored enough with the car to go through the hassle of signing all the paperwork only to back out (if that is what it came to) at the last minute. A few months ago this dealer had two GTO's so I could understand why they were restricting test drives. Now, however, this same dealer (Vista Ridge Pontiac in Dallas, TX) has 12 GTO's (red ones, black ones, silver ones, a yellow one and a Barbados blue one), AND they are asking for $2500 over sticker (each car has a little addendum sticker stating that it is a "market adjustment"). Given that sales are well below expectations (Pontiac's not mine), this seems a bit ludicrous to me and I'm sure to the general buying public as well. It was nice to see the variety of colors right next to each other though, and like you, if I had to choose, the Yellow would definitely have been my choice. I would still like to see an Impulse blue/blue interior combo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CAB:
Howie - I'd like to, but the local dealer won't let me test drive one.... QUOTE]

That is a dealer living in a fantasy land. My local dealer did a cursory credit check, then threw me the keys to the first one on his lot.

Considering the 05 is due very soon and less than half of the target numbers of 04's have been sold, I'm thinking in two months or so you can have a brand new 04 for 8-10k under sticker.