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Well the 12 bolt took a dump off the line hanging a right. Quite a ride! http://performanceyears.com/ubb/eek.gif I discovered the housing were the tubes are slid into split the case. Yes, they were tig welded but I didnt have any support to the outer ends. I understand once you get to this point, you need to start looking at a stronger rear.
Does anyone use a 12 bolt, 60fting in the 1.30s with any long term success? If so, what modifacations have you made. How about 4130 tubes with both ends welded to the housing and triangular support bars? ------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live The Legend" www.outlawpontiacs.com JBP 416ci on Gasoline #16 Dports 10.8-1 Compression Weight - 3275 10.5 - 29.5 TIRE Best ET: 60ft=1.39 1/8 =6.49@104mph 1/4 =10.29 @ 129mph [This message has been edited by Craig Berkheimer (edited 10-22-2000).] |
Well the 12 bolt took a dump off the line hanging a right. Quite a ride! http://performanceyears.com/ubb/eek.gif I discovered the housing were the tubes are slid into split the case. Yes, they were tig welded but I didnt have any support to the outer ends. I understand once you get to this point, you need to start looking at a stronger rear.
Does anyone use a 12 bolt, 60fting in the 1.30s with any long term success? If so, what modifacations have you made. How about 4130 tubes with both ends welded to the housing and triangular support bars? ------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live The Legend" www.outlawpontiacs.com JBP 416ci on Gasoline #16 Dports 10.8-1 Compression Weight - 3275 10.5 - 29.5 TIRE Best ET: 60ft=1.39 1/8 =6.49@104mph 1/4 =10.29 @ 129mph [This message has been edited by Craig Berkheimer (edited 10-22-2000).] |
Craig - That's a real bummer to hear. Frankly, I think your pushing the envelope now as far a what a 12 bolt will take. I'd start looking for a Dana or a 9 inch. So it broke the gear housing where the tubes are welded? Or did the tube(s) just break the weld(s)? Guess this put's the trans-brake project back a little further?
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I was on the last pass, 2nd round, to take the 2000 Outlaw Pontiac Drag Series Championship as well! I only needed that round to clinch it. I had a .552 bulb to my apponates .646 He was also a 14 second car. It would have been a kill for sure The Badbird was running dead nuts. The second place dude, Ted McGann, had to win that event to push me out. Wounldn't you know it, he went four more rounds and won the event and pushed me to 2nd place by 9 points. I guess I should have waited to run those 10.20s at Cecil another week.
To answer your question,It broke the housing! Right where GM welds the tube to the housing in that hole. Split it pretty good! You don't think the 4130 tubes and angle bracing will do the job? |
9", more options and reliability.
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Craig,
I ran a narrowed 9" in my "64 at 10.20s and bent both tubes. I now have a "Fab 9". If you decide to go with a 9" be sure to put a back brace on it. Incidentaly the fabricated housing cost me just under $1000 bare. You might check with some of the chassis builders. most of them sell rears. ------------------ Bill |
DANA. The only real choice. why spend 1100 on aFord 9 when you can get a DANA for 1700.
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Those Dana's are tuff. That might be the way to go. I would've used one but I change gears to run at an 1/8 mile track. Craig, if you don't change gears often the Dana is almost indistructable.
------------------ Bill |
Craig:
Jim Swarr, here in Collegeville, does the rear end work for S&W. Two years ago, he quoted me just under $1300 to do a Dana for a street 'Bird. That included everything including NEW Moser 35 spline axles, NEW Dana posi and NEW Dana 3.54 gears. A spool would certainly cost you less. Email me if you need his phone number and more information. A friend of mine who is a ProMod racer and does chassis work in the winter months yanks the heavy tubes out of the Dana and replaces them with lighter moly tubes. His business is in Danbury, CT and goes by the name of Speedworks. He's also very inexpensive. Again, email me if you need a phone number and details. In my opinion, the Ford 9" is like a small block Chevy: by the time it's built for real performance and durability, there are no longer any stock pieces in it anymore. Sort of like an IA block, Wenzler heads, Bryant crank, etc...."Yeah, but it's still a Pontiac.." The Dana is a "drop it in and forget it" rear. ------------------ Never been banned here... Because I've got MANNERS ....I've been warned a coupla times, though... [This message has been edited by Scott Misus (edited 10-23-2000).] |
I run a 12 bolt, with the axles support system, and a TA cover, and steel caps, spool, and Pro gear. What moves is the caps, then cracks the housing. The TA cover keeps pressure on the caps, keeps them from moving. The axle support system keeps the tubs from bending.
If I had it to do over again, I'd go Dana or 9", even with the axle supports, you have to keep an eye on the tubs, because they still bend, I've had to straighten them once already, high maintenance |
Don't laugh, this really works! 8.5 10-bolt, moser 35 spine axels (w/ c-clip eliminators), light weight spool, precision gears, TA cover, 1 billet cap or studded stock caps, weld your axel tubes at the housing, weld a bar from where your ladder bar bracket welds to the tube to the closest point to the front of the housing ( by the pinion shaft)on both sides. lighter and stronger then a 12 bolt, dana or 9". You have to check the alignment of the axel tubes prior to doing any modifications to make sure that they are straight. With the extra money you have left over after selling you 12 bolt, get drunk!
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John:
My mind is drawing a blank. From the tube where the ladder bar (or 4 link) mounts to the forward part of the housing? I'm lost. Please explain how to weld to the iron center section. Or is this a girdle deal, like the tube braces that Gach mentioned? |
ditto what Scott said.
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The supports that you guys are talking about are mounted on the cover side of the rear. I have my bars (around 1" od) welded on the other side and they make what is a visual triangle when welded to the center section with respect to the axel tube. This rear is just as strong as those heavy 9" and dana's but is a fraction of the cost. People will give you an old 10-bolt but want a fortune for a 9".
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So, you weld these bars to a bracket and then weld the bracket to the cast iron center section? Sounds like you'd have a heat sink problem welding a metal tab to an iron housing.
I'd be interested in seeing it. Are you going to have this car at Atco on Nov. 11th? |
Craig, I would go with a 9". I have boxes of broken parts from my 12 bolt. Your car is leaving hard, too hard for a 12 bolt.
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Scott, proper pre-heating will allow this to be done. It's a similar condition to welding the axle tubes to the center section, which is common practice. TM
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moser engineering should be able to set you up with a nine inch for your application. they have started shipping assembled rear ends recently. they will custom build an assembled unit for you if that's what you want. just have all of you dimensions handy when you call. if you want a bare housing they should be able to set you with that also.
they also carry wildwood brakes if you don't have rear disc already.their phone number is 1-219-726-6689. mike |
Kenny French, run's 9.50's with the same set up, I run, has never pop a rear yet. As long as you keep your eyes on the axle tubes, you'll be all set. But hey, if you don't want the hassles then go Dana, or Ford 9". Oh one more guy who was on the cover of Hot Rod, fastest street car shot out, runs 8.20's, 67 Nova, guess what he runs for a rear 12 bolt, same set up. So it's pretty strong set up.
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I just got off the phone with Moser. They are now making their own complete 12 bolt with "Fabracated" housing, 4130 tubes welded on the outside and the inside! Any length with any ends. New steel caps. $590.00
I think I'm going this way. I fiqure with the LPW cover and triangular support, this should do the job. ------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live The Legend" www.outlawpontiacs.com JBP 416ci on Gasoline #16 Dports 10.8-1 Compression Weight - 3275 10.5 - 29.5 TIRE Best ET: 60ft=1.39 1/8 =6.49@104mph 1/4 =10.29 @ 129mph |
Doesn't Strange make a drop in 12-boat center section for a 9" housing?
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There is a kit available I believe to use 12 bolt gearsets in 9 inch housings. The relationship of the ring to pinion on a 12 bolt does not rob as much power as a 9 inch is the reasoning I think.
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Yep.
Basically, it's like the old "Price is Right" vertical wheel. Remember that? The 12 bolt or Dana or just about any other rear for that matter, is like grabbing that wheel (ring gear) right at the 3 o'clock position and pulling down on it. The 9" Ford is like bending over and grabbing it way down at the 5 o'clock position and pulling down on it from there. Now, I ask you: which torque moment is going to provide the most efficient transfer of power? The RinkAZink modulator helps some, but in this case, not that much. ------------------ Never been banned here... Because I've got MANNERS ....I've been warned a coupla times, though... |
Squirrel on a treadmill. ? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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My squirrel has a better moment of inertia...
Where's 1/2" stud??? |
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/cwm13.gif
My 12boat tubes are welded to the centersection. Priced through Jegs, for 12boat: 30spline spool ; 150 30spline S/S Axle kit with C-elim stuff; 430 Lightweight 33spline spool ; 189 33spline S/S Axle kit with C-elim stuff; 610 ...or skip-it, cash the 12Bolt, and call Moser...for a moly-tubed Dana60 housing. ----------------------------------------- Run Nov 11 with stock 12Bolt Axles. My front wheels are toed-out real bad..no wonder it's a logger's ride at mid-high track. Front-End alignment and cool will probably sit me in the high 11's. ----------------------------------------- Then full-tilt upgrade this winter. ------------------ "his peg-leg got woodworm , and broke into three"--G. Baker |
John I think you should go with the 9 inch.Have you run that i.a combo 474 with nos and hooking yet on the 8.5 rear.That new combo of yours will make killer torque.
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477 cid but no nos. Everyone harps that the 9" is superior to everything else out there but I would like for someone to explain what is better other then the fact that the ring gear is 9" instead of 8.5" and the rotating mass is heavier. Oh wait, the mass doesn't help. I run the same size or larger axels, lighter spool, and smaller brakes. My housing is reinforced. I have a billet pinion yoke. Billet caps and studded. What else does a 9" have that I dont other then a bigger price tag. Pontiac people might not be familier with a guy named Dave Henniger. Dave has been running in various forms of heads up raceing with a 70 1/2 camaro. He has run on the other side of 8.50 seconds with a nitros set up in super street a few years ago and now runs a bastard v6 nitrous combo that runs 8.90's. All with a 8.5 10-bolt. Do they work, yes... you have to know how to build one.
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John L, on a side note: David Henninger Is looking for Karl Owens... If anyone can help...
Have him call David @ 810-757-1961 or page @ 800-892-3767 http://www.p-s-t.com/images/copchase.gif] ------------------ That's my story and I'm sticking to it! [This message has been edited by David Holmberg (edited 10-26-2000).] |
Crysler 8.8 appears to be the most available stout rear, with a decent gear selection.
Otherwise the Heavy, and sloppy-toleranced Dana60. I'd go Dana60 before 9"Ford. I looked at the 9". Don't like the looks...turns out I'm close to correct, as the only good 9"rears are ones with all aftermarket parts. Like Misus said, likened to the small chevy. Probably wise to leave the 9" with the street rods market, along with small chevys. The 12Bolt is efficient. The Big Car rears are tougher...no gears. If all I need is 3:42:1, then I've got more than enough gear...you'll see. Running 3.31:1 to the high 11's hopefully at atco. Corporate 10Bolt..sure, go run a Type O too. When it comes to Musclecar rears; Looks matter...12Bolt, 10Bolt, Dana60, and the old Olds-Pontiac. Oh, how about those independent rears? any one gonna go to bat for those?? |
John:
How heavy are these 8.50 cars that aren't spitting out 8.5" rears? Why aren't ProMod racers using them instead of 9" rears? |
Mark:
I recall a 15 year old glitter mag article about a guy who made an IRS for a Vette by using the Dana..... Can you dig up that article? |
3100-3400 lbs. the pro-mod comment shows how narrow minded people can be
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John, what are you running for heads on your 477 ? Oh doesn't Neal Owens run a 10 bolt rear, and that car weighs 3300 lbd I believe.
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John:
ProMod people aren't narrow minded; they know what breaks and what doesn't. |
Hey John what did you run with the 477 with out nos.Im very curious!
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Scott, was that Dana-Vette setup done by the guy "Pepe" from California. Maybe I'm thinking about an article about him doing something like putting a 12 bolt carrier in a 10 bolt Vette setup? (More like 20-25 years ago too) Still got the mag somewhere.
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The 8.5 corporates are real similiar to the 12 bolts in construction. The lack of ProGears in the 8.5 limits it's use in many cars which leave on an transbrake. Have personally built 8.5's which ended up in cars running down in the low 10's with spools, aftermarket axles & US Gears. I believe their housing strength is similiar to 12 bolts Chevys. With aftermarket caps& killer axles, LPW cover & bracing, they are tougher than most would expect. Weld the axle tubes to the housings on all of the leaf spring versions, as have even witnessed spun axle tubes in a 13 second street tired Camaro.
Personally like the moly tubed 9"s for verasatility. Dana 60's are alot more affordable to build & I can see their positives. |
My pro-mod comment wasn't directed to pro-mod people
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So, Do you guy's think the Moser 12 Bolt Fabracated housing with 4130 tubes and the LPW cover with bracing should withstand consistant 1.35-60ft?
I,m just about ready to let the greenbacks go. What do you think? ------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live The Legend" www.outlawpontiacs.com JBP 416ci on Gasoline #16 Dports 10.8-1 Compression Weight - 3275 10.5 - 29.5 TIRE Best ET: 60ft=1.39 1/8 =6.49@104mph 1/4 =10.29 @ 129mph |
Craig I cut consistent 1.34 in the heat with 3625 pounds with a nine inch with no problems.The 12 bolt stuff sounds trick though.
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Craig:
How much of your existing 12-boat stuff can you re-use in the new housing? ------------------ Never been banned here... Because I've got MANNERS ....I've been warned a coupla times, though... |
Craig,
The fab housing is the way to go. I bent my 9",so I got a "Fab 9" for just under a thou. It's the same width as my old housing, so I can use my old axles. If you would rather have a 9" I'll trade ya! My car ran about the same as your car. I don't yhink you would be making a mistake by going with a fabricated 12 bolt. ------------------ Bill |
Hey Guys,
I guess Nascar is wrong and everyone else is correct! Nascar uses the 9"!! Ah could it be because of less friction, no way!!!! How about yes way. Nascar uses the 9' because of less failures. But then again there going round and round, Hell I am getting dizzy just watching them!!!!! And besides i can't even get my heavy TA to hook so what do I know!!!!! Hot Rod ------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live the Legend" |
Nascar and Drag Racing place two completely different demands on a rear end. The 9 weighs less than the Dana and when you need different gearing for different tracks you just drop the pumpkin. Beats carting around 3 or 4 complete rear ends.
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Rod:
I really hate to break this to you, but aerodynamics and rear end friction just aren't two factors that come into consideration with a 10 or 11 second race car going 120. More important, in my opinion, is the reduction of rotational masses both within the engine and within the transmission that free up horsepower to go faster. Of course, this can carry through to other components like an aluminum or carbon fiber driveshaft and aluminum or lightened spool and ring gear and gun drilled axles and titanium drive studs, etc.. But, again, unless you're running in the mid 7's to mid 8's and are in the 1900-2200 lb. range, and have already done everything to the rotating components that can be done, it's my opinion that other things are more important first. Like buying and using a RinkAZink modulator. ------------------ First hillbilly: "I just caught my wife in bed with my best friend..." Second hillbilly: "You bitter?" First hillbilly: "Uh, huh. Bit HIM too!" [This message has been edited by Scott Misus (edited 10-27-2000).] |
Nascar uses the 9in because they can change gears quickly, they may try 3 or 4 different gears sets in one day. I have seen many Nascar rear ends break from the driver hitting the gas before the jack is released.
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Scott, everything is reusable. The only thing I trashed was the housing.
------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live The Legend" www.outlawpontiacs.com JBP 416ci on Gasoline #16 Dports 10.8-1 Compression Weight - 3275 10.5 - 29.5 TIRE Best ET: 60ft=1.39 1/8 =6.49@104mph 1/4 =10.29 @ 129mph |
Then it would appear that the smartest, most cost effective avenue would be the Moser 12 boat deal. You should be back in the swim a day after receiving your new housing.
------------------ First hillbilly: "I just caught my wife in bed with my best friend..." Second hillbilly: "You bitter?" First hillbilly: "Uh, huh. Bit HIM too!" |
Yes, I realize this but will it withstand the brute tourqe and horsepower of the JBP 416?
------------------ Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association "For Those Who Live The Legend" www.outlawpontiacs.com JBP 416ci on Gasoline #16 Dports 10.8-1 Compression Weight - 3275 10.5 - 29.5 TIRE Best ET: 60ft=1.39 1/8 =6.49@104mph 1/4 =10.29 @ 129mph |
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