Can anyone give me some input as to whether there is any benefit to using 10/30 synthetic oil over conventional oil? The price for sythetic is not all that much more, but don't want to waste money. Any IDEAS?

Thanks
Chris

Can anyone give me some input as to whether there is any benefit to using 10/30 synthetic oil over conventional oil? The price for sythetic is not all that much more, but don't want to waste money. Any IDEAS?

Thanks
Chris

I use Mobil 1 in my cars. When I took the engine out of my street/strip 1967 GTO to freshen it up after 6 years of racing there was no measureable wear. That was good enough for me.

After engine break in, I would switch to synthetic. It is the best oil you can buy, as you already stated, it does't cost that much more. Tried to post a web site but here is the address. WWW.bobistheoilguy.com

Being that your engine was sitting for a while. You might want to put conventional oil in first. Run it some and then change the oil with a new oil filter and the synthetic oil in then.

Is all synthetic REALLY full synthetic oil?
What brand do you think is best. They all seem to make a synthetic, with Mobil one being the most expensive by far.
Thanks Chris

Will changing from conventional oil to synthetic oil affect oil preassure?
Maybe a silly question, but worth asking.

I am toying with adding a remote oil filter to my 67 GTO, and just doing my homework.

Just drain out the conventional oil and replace with the synthetic?
Is there a wieght difference? Say from 10w - 30.

I have never used the syntheic oil before. I just used to change the oil every 1000 miles or so.

I'm not sure if ones better that the other. But I would tend to think that there all about the same.

Why not ask your boss?? He should know..

Flat tappet or roller?

Yes. Synthetic leaves a film on moving parts better than mother nature oil which is better for start ups. Particularly if the engine sits periods of time between starts. That's why I run in 4 of my 6 cars. It also does not break down as quickly as normal oil and releases particles and impurities more easily to the oil filter. Does just about everything better than regular oil.

How much break-in on a fresh engine before swiching

Yes. I run Mobil 1 synthetic oil and transmission fluid (auto cars) in all my vehicles. Gas mileage went up about 1 mpg after the change. FWIW, when I had my old Corvette, the oil pressure increased about 7-10 psi and the oil temps dropped from 240 to 180-200 degrees. Synthetic is well worth the money.

As a rule of thumb..don't add synthetic until approx 1000 miles of breakin on a rebuilt engine.

You need to put 100-200 miles on the street and 8-20 passes down the 1/4...There is no real magic number,but those will put you in the ballpark..
There is isn't enough difference between the Oil companies,Mobil,Valvoline,Castrol,Pennzoil,
etc.Avg. cost about $3.75-4.00 per Qt.(Sam's-Costco,etc.) Racing only, Royal-Purple,Red-line,
Amsoil are about $6-10 per qt.
Be sure it says Full Syn. not a Blend !!!!
I have even used Wal-marts (Full-Syn) Something Tech label in my street cars..Works very well and costs$13-14 per 5qt container..
Hope this helps you in your project..I have found Wal-Mart,Sam's has best everyday prices on Oil,unless you get it free.......
Dave...1033/stock

Thanks for all the help guys with this topic. Seems like alot of other epople may have been considering the same thing.

What is the best viz?

I've been running 15-40 Valvoline High Mileage conv oil in my GOAT original engine.

What would be the best comparable syn oil?

One oil comparable to what you are using now would be Delvac 1 which is a synthetic HD oil.

On this subject, anyone know why some of the cam manufacturers don't recommend synthetic? Not sure which one, but remember one of them stating not to run synthetic. I've got a big solid in my new motor and plan on changing over to Mobil 1 along with 1 bottle of EOS after a few hundred hard miles.

All current spec motor oil including synthetics have reduced zinc disulphide (or something like that) to reduce contamination to the converter and as most vehicles have roller valvetrains, the additive is not necessary.

I can't confirm but I believe STP is loaded with the stuff and completely compatible with sythetic oils. So the best solution appears to be to be break your engine in with standard oil, then after the rings set, spike your synthetic oil cocktail with STP.

Yes! Synthetic oil. Full service at Walmart is 30 bucks. Can't beat it, plus the kids get a kick out of my old car and they try extra hard to do a good job. When I worked at a tire store the cool cars I worked on made my day.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I can't confirm but I believe STP is loaded with the stuff and completely compatible with sythetic oils. So the best solution appears to be to be break your engine in with standard oil, then after the rings set, spike your synthetic oil cocktail with STP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oil "additives" are snake oil. If use use any quality brand oil, any additives is a total waste of money and can do more warm than good.

Here's link that is a good read about it.
Oil additives

KS, I don't believe that is exactly what your article says. May I quote from the article you cited?

"Organic zinc compounds are used as extreme pressure, anti-wear additives, and are therefore found in larger amounts in oils specifically blended for high-revving, turbocharged or racing applications. The zinc in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal con tact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating conditions. However, if you race your bike, or occasionally play tag with the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings.

However - and this is the important part to remember - available research shows that more zinc does not give you more protection, it merely prolongs the protection if the rate of metal-to-metal contact is abnormally high or extended. So unless you plan on spending a couple of hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to your oil is usually a waste. Also, keep in mind that high zinc content can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling.

Among the products we found containing zinc dialkyldithiophosphate were Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2. The only reason we can easily identify the additives with the new zinc compounds is that they are required to carry a Federally mandated warning label indicating they contain a hazardous substance. The zinc phosphate they contain is a known eye irritant, capable of inflicting severe harm if it comes in contact with your eyes. If you insist on using one of these products, please wear protective goggles and exercise extreme caution.

As we mentioned, organic zinc compounds are already found in virtually every major brand of oil, both automotive and motorcycle. However, in recent years the oil companies voluntarily reduced the amount of zinc content in most of their products after research indicated the zinc was responsible for premature deterioration and damage to catalytic converters. Obviously this situation would not affect 99 percent of all the motorcycles on the road - however, it could have been a factor with the newer BMW converter - equipped bikes.

Since the reduction in zinc content was implemented solely for the protection of catalytic converters, it is possible that some motorcycles might benefit from a slight increase in zinc content in their oils. This has been taken into account by at least one oil company, Spectro, which offers 0.02 to 0.03 percent more zinc compounds in its motorcycle oils than in its automotive oils.

Since Spectro (Golden 4 brand, in this case) is a synthetic blend lubricant designed for extended drain intervals, this increase seems to be wholly justified. Also, available research indicates that Spectro has, in this case, achieved a sensible balance for extended application without increasing the zinc content to the point that it is likely to cause spark plug fouling or present a threat to converter- equipped BMW model"

Just an FYI.

Years ago when I took chemistry my teacher told us that oils were probably the most reasurched chemical on the market. More money and time have been spent reasurching engine oils etc. than just about any other man made chemical on earth. Addatives can be fine but reasurch on it's application must be done before you just grab one off the shelf and put it in. My diesel mechanics teacher told me that as a rule of thumb you're better off NOT adding anything. Now if you find one that is recommended by the oil manufacturer for your application that is the way to go. Oils are highly sensitive to specific application demands and a "generic" approach to addatives can't be used. I'm not saying that an addative might not be good for an application but you better look into it before you put it into your rig. Just look at the number of specific oils out there for different applications. The ash content, the sulfer content, etc. are all balanced for a specific type of duty (or predicted duty anyway) and putting another chemical into the mix can cause more harm than good if not reasurched before hand.

Does anyone know anything about Lucas Oil additives.....for oil, tranny and P/S?

RPM, what is HD . . . ?

More snake oil!


Snake oil part 2


It's all a big money marketing scheme.

Snake oil part 3
Amsoil
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Stay away from all aftermarket additives!

You simply do not need them and you surely don't need the problems they may cause with your engine. If your still not convinced then think about this statement:

The major oil companies, including AMSOIL, are staffed with the, bar none, some of the best chemists, scientists and engineers the world has to offer. Now, don't you think that if they determined that their motor oil was lacking an additive that they would blend it in their additive package? They obviously have the technology and resources and the financial backing to do it. Then why don't they? The answer is simple: They are not needed! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 70 dream:
RPM, what is HD . . . ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HD = Heavy Duty otherwise known as Diesel Oil. These oils contain more of the EP additives etc. and have a higher TBN (total base number) which also means they will handle the crud our antique motors deposit into the oil longer/better before requiring change out. That is why I like this kind of oil in my GTO. The family vehicles get Mobil 1 and a Wix filters and annual oil changes. I should do an analysis on those cars but am too cheap/lazy.

I like Amsoil. All the others seem to be a blend, even Mobil 1. I pay $4 a quart for Amsoil. You will be able to go twice as long between oil changes. When your car is cold there is 1000 times more wear on the engine. Synthetic oil lubricates more and has a much lower pour point than regular oil. You cannot go wrong with synthetic oil. Try to buy 100% synthetic oil. Also use good filters on your motor, alot of us seem to like the Nappa gold filter witch is made by WIX.

I'll toss in another thumbs up for synthetics. I've run them in my daily drivers for a few years now. You can get quite a bit more mileage between changes with it. In fact, I just saw a new Mobil One ad on TV claiming 15k between changes. This is something I've done a couple of times in the wife's old '99 Blazer. It's also been shown in studies, not just by manufacturers. Here's one:

Oil life study

Mobil 1 is a PAO synthetic as is Amsoil. Both oils have a small amount of mineral oil in them though to act as carriers for additives.

Is there a synthetic that does NOT have additives?

PTFE (teflon) = bad because it's a solid - clogs passageways and filter.

Zinc dialkyl = bad because it leaves deposits

RPM, just trying to understand . . . if Mobil 1 has mineral oil to act as a carrier for additives, what are the additives - are they PTFE or zinc, or other additives?

In this thread, Amsoil and Delvac1 are mentioned as being good synthetics . . .

sorry for all the basic questions . . . .

Mobil 1 Virgin Oil Analysis Link

Basically all motor oils are composed of some base oil and additives. What is what varies with each and every oil. Some have moly, some boron, calcium, zinc, etc.

I was wanting to run Synthetic in my new engine but I have heard that synthetic is very prone to leak and if you have a leak it will be 10 times worse with synthetic - any truth to this?

No.

OMG! If it's a fresh rebuild, change to synthetic on the 3rd oil change. If it's a used car you bought with more then 50k that didnt use it, dont worry about it, you wont notice a difference. Just change the oil & filter like you should. We have customers with 200-300k miles on thier cars useing plain old 10-30 mineral oil.

Hmmmmm....Saw a study some time ago about measureable wear and the Syn Vs. Petro debate using 60,000 mile service interval NYC taxi engines.

We tried synthetic (Mobil 1 15/50) in the 429 Ford in our tow vehicle and we went through an engine about every 80,000 miles.

Bottom line was this: No measureable difference between Valvoline 20/50 and Mobil 1 15/50 after equal service lives of around 80,000 miles.

Camshaft and lifters had just as much wear with both oils and the engine was spotless inside with both oils.

I've ran a lot of Aviation Oil in the past, but I have since switched to the following oils:

Shell Rotella T 15/40 in my Mrecedes-Benz Turbo Diesel and Valvoline 20/50 Racing (high Zinc) Formula in everything else.

I don't do the extended drain thing. I change oil and filter every 3000 to 5000 miles in both...Robert

Robert I remember that too. It was done by Consumers Reports about 8-10 years ago. (I think)Was a very stringent with no appreciable difference between the two.

If that is the case why do tests on the Dyno give more HP with synthetic then dino oil? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

Example: My 1993 Toyota PU has 205,000miles on it. I bought the truck in 1995 and have changed the oil and tuned it etc. as per manufactures recommendations or as close as I could afford and it might use a half quart of oil per change now and I can not tell the difference in the way it runs from the day I bought it with 40k miles on it. I haven't run anything but standard type oil in it in all this time. Never even an addative. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif I drive it hard (it will do 105mph on lvl ground still and that's all it would do at 40k) because it's my only "sports car" right now BUT I have rarely hauled a load in it.

I think 205,000miles speaks for itself. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

I've owned several Toyota's and not to change the subject and no offense but your story is routine for a Toyota. Good story but IMHO, it does not serve as proof of anything other than Toyota builds good cars and trucks.

What is proof to me is the extent sythetic oils are used in all forms of racing and recommended by virtually all high end auto manufacturers for their street cars. Many of which have been able to eliminate external oil coolers as a result. Yes, synthetic costs more and in many typical cars, you may never know the difference. But, I guess the same thing could be said about forged cranks, forged pistons, Crower rods and so on. Depends on the application and the owner's willingness to take on risk.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Formula8:
1. I've owned several Toyota's and not to change the subject and no offense but your story is routine for a Toyota. Good story but IMHO, it does not serve as proof of anything other than Toyota builds good cars and trucks.

2. What is proof to me is the extent sythetic oils are used in all forms of racing and recommended by virtually all high end auto manufacturers for their street cars. Many of which have been able to eliminate external oil coolers as a result. Yes, synthetic costs more and in many typical cars, you may never know the difference. But, I guess the same thing could be said about forged cranks, forged pistons, Crower rods and so on. Depends on the application and the owner's willingness to take on risk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Yes they do, and I am a mechanical engineer and I used to be a diesel mechanic and my best freind is a Toyota certified mechanic and I can tell you that the BEST made rig wont last very long if the oil is junk. I don't care what it's made of and how well it's put together if the metal contacts metal it screws it up. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

2. I think you said it "...Depends on the application..." Willingness to risk hasn't got a thing to do with it. The manufacturer sets up a maintenance program for that engine/application and a service factor for said and if you follow the manufacturers guidelines you should be just fine. The auto makers do a ton of testing to keep there customers happy and keep from paying out warranty claims. It isn't ALWAYS perfect of course but I can guarantee they don't put anything in the engine that wont make it last. Now if synthetic is recommended you better use it, that goes back to the manufacturers service factors for that application. I'm not saying that synthetic isn't good but I don't think it's necessary for most applications. It might be a budget saver if the oil change interval is such that it cost less to change synthetic less often.

Syn Oil is used by most race teams and it does run cooler,lower engine temps,less friction,lasts longer,gets better gas mileage(1-2 mpg),keeps engine cleaner...Yes, but it does cost more,so does good Medical insurance,car,etc
There are some many positives,that I can't
see why anyone would argue..But,thats what makes
the world go round..Syn,works if you care about your investment!! if you don't,use regular
oil and good-luck..Life is about Choices...
Dave...1033/stock

POCI and GTOAA national conferences had Mobil One as guest speakers and they confirm not to use Mobil One in a used engine having many miles because it loosens deposits and can cause the filter to plug, it leaks more with used seals that were sealing with conventional oil, and because oil needs to be changed based on either mileage or just age, it is not cost effective for low mileage driven vehicles.

engineer,

Where would you put a dragcar,not-driven much
low-miles,lose engine specs..oil changes should still be done at 3-4,000 miles with new filter..How much mileage is a-lot??? 40-50,000.
I don't think anyone was talking about using Syn
in a 100,000 oil burner.. A side from all the little knit-picking things,it still give better mileage,helps on cold starts,etc..just my $.02
have a wonderful Day.. Dave..1033/st

Glad to see this post got so much action. It seems like the winner is synthetic, period.
Since its not suggested in high mileage vehicles, (+100,000) miles, does anyone know if the so called hi mileage oil is all thats its hyped up to be?
Also, Lucas makes a additive for oil as well, I think it's synthetic, and news on that product?
Thanks
Chris

Uneaasy,

I think we are all in agreement that we are not talking about a poor performing oil in either case. We are talking about the best oil for a particular application.

My mid seventies 455 barely weezed out 200hp and probably would struggle to make it past 4500 RPM. Now, current technology allows us to ask these engines to produce 450hp @ nearly 6000 RPM on pump gas. Under these conditions, the manufacturers original recommendation mean little. If one choses to adhere to them, I would say, one is taking on a certain amount of risk.

No bad feelings over here, that is why there are dozens of different types of oil. It was said best earlier.....life is about choices.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Darrell:
If that is the case why do tests on the Dyno give more HP with synthetic then dino oil? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lower viscosity = less fluid friction...Robert

You can switch to synth on a high mileage vehicle.

I swapped the wife's 2000 expedition over to mobil1 at 80,000 miles. No issues, no leaks, no problems. Just less oil changes.

I have read some threads from other people who have done the same with no excitement.

On a much older car with a lot of miles i'd probably just keep running what's been put into it until rebuild time due to the sludge and seal hardening issues.

My friend was a taxi driver and swears by that report.But listen for a second.
Synthetic oil is a chemically specific formula that is perfect every time. Which means that you get the same can of oil each time, with the same protection each time. You add four grams of this and 2 grams of .....
regular oil is refined. You start out with Crude that must be tested to determine its chemical properties as I am sure not all crude is the same to determine how much refining etc Which makes it subject to variations in structure. Alittle help Chemical engineers or mooon shiners. Which doesn't mean it is a poor product but rather something that is refined until it falls between a range of set factors. WHere as the synthetic is perfect every time and isn't on the low end of zinc or moly or whatever oil characteristic sometimes.
My oil background is alittle rusty but hands down synthetic is the way to go. But if you change your oil every 3k or 3 months and are not abusive a good regular oil will be fine I guess.
Couple more things. In every car that I switched from regular oil to synthetic there has beena noticeable diference in performance. They felt smoother and had more power. Believe it or not my wifes 2001 4 cylinder cavalier was night and day different after the switch.
I wish I could have taken pics of my friends regular oil 4.3 versus my synthetic 4.3 engine inside when we did intake manifold gaskets. His was full of scally sooty deposits all over the lifter valley. Actually looked like someone poured burnt wood pieces inside his engine. But no lie my synthetic oil engine was clean and did not have any deposits. And he is a meacahnic that changes his oil regularly. ANyway thats my two cents.

Many would agree that Pontiacs engines can have rear main seals that leak. 4 spd cars can have rear main seals that are a bit more prone to leakage than automatic cars. There are varying degrees of leaky rear main seals. The experts say that synthetic oil can cause some seals to leak more that may have sealed with conventional oil.
.
I have a rebuilt 400 with about 1000 miles on the engine. Engine is in 78 TA 4spd. The engine was assembled with .002-.003 clearances on the main and rod bearings. Initially, I ran 10w-30 conventional oil. I was noticing that the rear of the engine (by the rear main seal) was leaking a very slight amount. I would get the occasional few drops of oil on the ground after parking overnight. I could see there was a bit of oil in the 4spd bellhousing. I could see that the back of the block by the rear main seal was a bit damp and oil stained. I am pretty sure the oil pan gasket / oil pan seal is good. So, I suspected my rear main seal was leaking a slight amount.The 400 has a BOP rear main seal and I followed the instructions. I changed over to 10w-40 conventional oil (from 10w-30)and this seemed to improve the leakage from the rear main seal/rear of block. I was getting less oil dripage and the back of the block was not as damp.
.
I really like all the benefits of synthetic oil, but I am not sure about how it would work in a Pontiac rear main seal that is a bit leaky.
.
Questions
-----------
1. What are people's experience with synthetic oil and rear main seals in Pontiac engines?
2. Would it be recommended to use synthetic oil in a Pontiac engine ,with a 4spd, that has rear main seal that may have a very slight (ie. occasional drop or few drops of oil from rear main seal if parked over night)?
3. I see different viscosities used for synthetic oil (looks like most run 10w-30 to 15w-40). What do experts recommend for synthetic oil viscosity in normal (ie. engine assembled with .002-.003 main/rod clearances)Pontiac engine?