STOCK CAST RODS V. AFTERMARKET RODS - PROS AND CONS, PLEASE!
 

There are conflicting opinions here on the board and from other input I've received on this subject.

I'm planning a stock rebuild on my 400, and need to decide what to do.

STOCK CAST RODS

resize, check for straightness, harden by shot peening - how much will all of this cost, and is it all necessary?

comment - stock rods are the weakest link in a rebuild

comment - stock rods are ok if rpms don't get too high

comment - polish

comment - do not polish

AFTERMARKET RODS

get forged

Eagle was recommended by 3 members

are billet rods overkill?

many comments - use ARP bolts

If new Eagle rods cost about the same as reconditioning the old stock rods, why not get new?

Thanks for helping to clear up my confusion . . . .

Harry

Harry you've hit on everything already! Cast rods can handle mild to medium builds but should be resized and have new bolts. That's where the machining costs get close to a new rod cost. There are even some cheaper forged I beams than the EAGLE type H beams. The new rods are made out of a better material for the stress of a racing engine. Like everything in life it's a cost benefit ratio. You have to weigh cost of machine shop work and stil having weaker cast rods vs cost of new stronger rod.

Billet is probably overkill unless you have a really high HP or endurance racing motor now that there are other options.

polishing and shot peening stock rods are a waste of $ because you could have bought forged rods for the $ spent...especially if the rods are hi milers... get forged rods already prepped from a reputable shop...NOT UNPREPPED(unfinished) OFF OF EBAY!!! you dont build a house on a weak foundation, correct?

Thanks, Skip,

Form 406, what do you mean when you say to prep the new rods? If they are new, what else do you have to do to them?

if it is truly a "stock" 400 rebuild with a RPM limit of 5500 a set of well rebuilt cast rods are fine.If anykind of race work,aftermarket rods are in order.IMHO the weakest link in the motor is the rod and put in the best you can afford for the RPM and HP.Tom

I went on the Eagle web site and saw that their rods are forged in China.

Does this worry anyone?

Is this cause for worry?

the majority of the more inexpensive forged rods (and cranks) are imported from asia...quality control or lack of can be questionable (ie. unable to be balanced or not meeting required specs for roundness)...then you have to bring it to a machine shop to be finished...if it can be finished...some are unacceptable then you are stuck trying to return or replace, ship back and forth or in some cases on ebay you are out of luck...paying a bit more and getting them from p-dude, butler, etc. (maybe stock rods from them?) you know you are getting a finished product ready to go prepped by somebody who cares...if you arent racing or towing you can use stock rods, have them resized then magged, not visa versa...i have friends that race with stock rods (from butler) even with juice to 6500 rpm's!!! , but its still a gamble...forged rods have been much more affordable in the last few years...just research like you are and fit your budget vs. use...its impossible for me not to rev my stock rods up in my 406 and when i cross 5500 rpms... im paranoid cause i have toasted stock rods before...which toasted my 70' 462 4 bolt main block, 2 pistons, cam, oil pump, distributor... :( ..i got my 406 shortblock with balanced rotating assembly w/ trw's for $300. ...thats why im running stock rods now cause that all i could afford...

Hell yes, it worries me. A lot!

NOBODY goes to China for better quality. They go to China because the Communist government is willing to prostitute it's population for amazingly low wages. Buying from the Communists is about one-half step away from actually supporting slavery. You ARE supporting forced labor, often child labor, and you ARE supporting an economy that has approximately zero regard for workforce rights and ecological matters.

Guess what the Chinese government is doing with the trade surplus? Buying war material, that's what.

Twenty years from now, after we've built their infrastructure and practically taught their people how to work in industry, the Chinese government will have bought enough weapons from the Russians and Israelis (and made some of their own) to go to war with us. THEY ARE ALREADY BUYING WEAPONS, AND STOCKPILING! It will make Iraq look like a schoolyard squabble. And the nukes are likely to land on OUR soil as well.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...9/154806.shtml
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FC26Ad02.html

And to add insult to catastrophe, AMERICAN tax dollars are being used to develop Israeli weapons, which Israel then sells to China and other enemies of the USA.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

Are you prepared to send your kids to fight the Chinese? It will be the first all out, "real" war since WWII. The only reason we didn't kick ass in Korea and Vietnam is because we feared the Russians and Chinese would become more actively involved, instead of playing the "supporting role" as they did. The North Koreans and the North Vietnamese had NOTHING that could bring the war to North America. China does.

i think crowers are one of the best, but double the price of imports....

Well Schurkey, I guess you better stop buying and using computers, get rid of most of your clothes, get rid of that late model vehicle you drive(manufaturer irrelevant as most of it is Chinese), get rid of your stereo..hell, pretty much everything you own, and go live off in the bush somewhere. Foraging off the land. It is the only way you will be able to avoid those chinese. Bye Shurkey.

For the rest of us who understand that our economies are pretty much irrevesibly tied into China, we will continue on with life.

Just becasue it says made in China on it, doesn't mean its crap. This is the same phenomenon with made in Japan after the war. Once people got their heads out of their arses, they realised that the Japanese stuff was the best in the world. I'm not saying everthing out of China is spectacular, just that it isn't as black and white as some people like to proclaim.

Therefore, those Eagle rods, made in China aren't neccessarily crap. I use them in my engine, and they are perfect. They were perfect out of the box. Within 1 gram of eachother!

I like Chinese food alot and if their rods are like their food I could live with them. I thought this would add somthing to the Communist discussion. :beerchug:

A little off subject, but....I am an Electrical Contractor, Commercial/industrial. Today in a span of about 5 minutes I noticed the following: the 2x4 lay-in lt fixtures we rec from Lithonia Lighting were made in Mexico, the recessed can lights we installed came from Korea, and the lamps we installed in them came from Vietnam!! We also use a ton of other stuff from China. The cat is out of the bag. I am as Pariotic as the next guy but if we used all USA stuff we would be out of business!! Just food for thought, FWIW. BTW, actual topic related-LOL, RSB motorsports also sells Scat 4340 H-Beam rods, they are a less expensive alternate to others, come with ARP bolts. Just be sure the machine shop checks them out good, a couple of mine were a little tight and had to be touched up. I would not hesitate to use Scat again. -Jim

Who said its cheaper to buy Eagles than to resize stock rods? They must be getting ripped off by their machinist! If you buy new Chinese rods you might have to resize them anyway. Go American as in Crower.
If its a stock rebuild then the factory cast rods will work fine with new bolts and a resize.

This is from Kauffman Racing Equipment. I spent about $150 for ARP bolts and resizing of my stock rods 4 years ago. Certainly an option. I respect Kauffman.

This is CAT's stock replacement rod. Standard length of 6.625" with pressfit pin end. Great rod for stock to mild performance engines. Rated to 500 hp.

$ 250.00

I think Proline will also have a I beam 5140 forged rod at 6.625" in the same price range i do belive (250.00).....Pdude could probably give a little more information than i can..... :Peace:

Yes, I'm hoping that Pontiac Dude reads this post, otherwise, I'll have to PM him . . . . .

I also need his opinion on the HB hypereutectic piston . . . . .

If you search for older discussion of the KB's, you'll find lots of stuff- including, I think, from PDude.

it was $90. to have my stock rods resized...as for buying imported asian products there is no way around it in daily life as we know it...imported products make more profit and are more affordable...the biggest american companies are outsourcing there (i know people taking early retirement because their factory is relocating to china)...and we have sold record amounts of weapons to china and india...talk to the president about that...back to cars...70 dream ill have to cruise down in my bird to check yours out...

I use SD-455 Rods

I use either Cast of Forged pistons depending on
#1: customer application
#2: hp levels
#3: durability

Same deal with rods.

One nice thing about the cheaper line of H-beam rods. They are stronger then a factory CAST rod and with a reductiuon in weight. You have the benefit of quicker rpms with bottom end load and main area. Same deal with aftermarket pistons and pins.

But goes back to what your gonna do with your ride. Each case requires it's own answer.

The cat 5140 (and their derivatives) is the way to go with any kind of performance in mind over the stock rods. With that said they should be given a once over (like any part) to make sure everything is, as it should.


And as stated above the Asia products are EVERYWHERE in our American lives.

Chinese Naysayers Should Read This Post

WARPed, that doesn't mean we have to like it. :-} Those darned Unions made it to expensive to do anything in this country.

that's an interesting sentiment. i think (i could be wrong) my GTO was built by union labor.

There is a lot of debate on this topic and I believe the stock rods get blamed for a lot of operator/machinist error(s) overall.

I have seen several 400's and 455's with Eagle, Crower and SD Rods blown through the pan and we are talking street motors without nitrous. The historical Pontiac problem of spinning rod bearings has a deeper cause than the material the connecting rods are made out of.

A former business partner of mine has a 455 SD Firebird and the engine was built by a very well know firm, not Fulper either, but you would immediately recognize the name. He put 11,000 miles on the car when it developed a knock. He shipped the engine back to the builder who told him he has lost the #1 and #2 rod bearings.

The builder told him he would need to upgrade to Crower rods since this was a 'common problem' with stock rods. That statement is utterly ridiculous. The 'problem' in this case is poor assembly/machine work.

When I built my 400, I went through several sets of stock cast rods until I found 8 of them that weighed almost exactly the same. I then polished the beams, cut the beams/caps, installed new rod bolts, balanced them all to the weight of the lightest rod and honed them to the low side of the tolerance.

Total investment: $50.00 for a set of aftermarket rod bolts. I do ALL my own machine work.

Based on my observations of many Pontiac blocks, I have found the biggest weakness is the block's ability to maintain cocentrcity of the mian bearing bores.

First of all, the main caps are quite thin (narrow) for such a large journal diameter and the front of the crank is unsupported. This is why so many Pontiac blocks I see have out-of-round main bearing bores, especially the #1 journal.

If the journal bore is out-of-round, it will act to 'pinch off' the oil supply to the rods. This is why the 3/4 groove main bearings are so effective as they 'extend' the period of time the rods are exposed to oil pressure.

While a Crower, SD or Eagle Rod is a nice piece, I have seen 389's spun well past 6000 for years with no problems, so the Armasteel Rods are doing their jobs.

I have also listened to the ridiculous theory that the #1 and #2 rod bearings fail because they are "the last ones to get oil pressure." Obviously, this person is unfamiliar with Pascal's Law. No point in a pressurized passage will receive pressure until all points are pressurized. However, the flow of a fluid can be interupted by restriction(s) which can result in bearing failure.

In my opinion and assuming you have a competent machinist, stock rods are fine to 6000 rpm in a 'detonation-free' engine...Robert

Well said Robert and I totally agree.

I would agree.......Guy's reving these motors past the intended RPM usage is I bet what contributed to alot of the bad rap on the Pontiac rods......

Aint the union's its the greedy corporations that ruined our economy. They are the ones who go outside the country for labor and materials thus further degenerating our economic status.
Res Ipsa loquitur!

Nice signature Karma....... :D

like a mentioned in my earlier post my buddy had a butler 455 with stock rods that he ran juice on up to 6500rpm's with no problems...

I posted this pic a few years ago, but I think it's appropriate. This is what happened the last time I used cast rods. These were resized inside a balanced motor with good bolts. Through the traps at 110MPH I got a shudder in the drivetrain...FWIW, I would recommend a good set of AMERICAN made rods- Crower or Childs and Albert. I'd leave the chinese stuff on the table. You may pay a little more, but at least you're doing the right thing supporting your country instead of the chinese economy.

Although, re-reading your original post, if all you're doing is a stock rebuild on a 400, maybe just go with the cast rods resized with good bolts. As long as you're under 5K rpm and not making any real power(<400HP) you shoudn't have any problems. I do have a stock cast rod 455 tripower in my other 65 GTO that was dragstrip thrashed for several years while in my blue 65 making just 400HP and not taking it past 5K.

Stock cast rods are incredibly strong and stable parts....right up to the point where they BREAK! This happens without warning and usually takes the whole engine with it. Ya, ya, I know, scores of folks running 10's with well prepared cast rods, here it all the time. Some things to ponder on:

About 15 years ago we encountered another racer at a local track. He had a beautiful early GTO, Nash 5 speed, RAIV heads and used an old solid cam. The car ran well into the 10's and he spun the engine well past 6000rpm's. At the time I was amazed, so we got on the discussion of engine durabilty.

He said that they shot peened, magged, polished, resized and installed new bolts in factory cast rods.....they snapped like twigs on the very FIRST run!

The next effort involved rebuilding an early set of SD forged rods with correct heat treating, etc, etc, bent them into "S's" on the FIRST run!

Ordered custom Crower billet rods and they ran season after season without any issues. At the time the only real trouble he was having was keeping a rope seal in the 400 engine.

For what it's worth, back in the 70's when I was in high school lots of us had "Muscle Cars", mostly Mopar's and Chevy's. The few who ran Pontiac's were constantly scouring the salvage yards for spare engines. We catagorized the Pontiac engines for having "soft" internals, so we avoided them at all costs.

30 years later, I have no doubt that the cast rods were the death sentence of so many of these engines. Of course non of us back then even looked at the tach when doing "donuts" in the high school parking lot at FULL throttle or during grudge races on the street. One very close friend of mine went through about a half dozen Pontiac 400 engines in less than two years....he was a barbarian behind the wheel and his foot was constantly pushing a hole in the floor board!

For what it's worth and my opinion, complete waste of time to bead blast, shot peen, polish, resize, good bolts, balance, etc a set of cast rods these days when you can buy good forged rods at reasonable prices that are many times than the cast rods would ever be after all the time/expense. If nothing else you will sleep better at night and have much less of a "pucker" factor when you spin your big Injun to past 6000 rpm's if a good set of forged rods are in place!......Cliff

hahaha..."pucker"...that what i do when i go over 5300 rpms on my my 406 with 35 year stock old rods :)...when you buy asian imports you are supporting our american economy as well cause we are the ones selling them and making the bigger profit...

Cliff's assessment is among the more accurate. For every "success" story with cast rods, there are 50 Pontiac engines with air-conditioned pans.

We DO build stock engines with cast rods. Only when the customer won't authorize good ones. Consider that none of these cast rods are under 27 years old, regardless of where they came from. Most are far older. Most have a bazillion up/down cycles and heat/cool cycles on them. Fatigue IS an issue.
As another said, shot-piening and polishing a cast part is a waste of time. Installing new bolts insures the bolts are new. Nothing else.

One guy says he went through "several sets" of cast rods to find a "matched" set. He then sized them himself. They only cost him $50. That is, if his time is worthless. And that had to be a while back, because even stock replacement bolts are higher than $50 for a set (SPS, Pioneer). ARPs are higher, yet.

One of the primary reasons we hear why people cut this corner (don't be fooled, that IS what you're doing) is money. The average rebuild for a performance Pontiac (not "race") runs in the $3-3.5K-plus range. I submit that 10% of that cost going to the weakest link in the chain is money well spent. For a high revver, even 20% would be good. NOTE: Contrary to popular belief, we (engine builders) make MORE money rebuilding your stock rods than we do selling you new steel rods. This is not an opinion, and every professional on this site will agree with that. Of the $200 it costs to do a quality rebuild on the rods, we get to keep $150 or so. Of the $700 a set of Crower Sportsmans or Eagle Pontiacs cost, we get to keep about $120 of that. Do the math. Why would ALL of us recommend steel rods over the stockers, even if it cuts into profit? Because you NEED them, that's why. Cast rods are a failure in process. When and where is all that's left to be determined.

I agree, it isn't the rod material that causes the failure. Bearing trouble causes it. Cast rods are much less "forgiving" than forged rods. A bearing failure with cast rods is a sure explosion. It'll "knock" for a while with a forged rod, giving you warning. Same is true of crankshafts, which is why Chevy guys can't run cast cranks and make any serious power. The Pontiac crank is a whole lot bigger, making it much stronger.

And the SD rods? Great stuff! The 421 units are a tad stronger than the 455s, no matter what they LOOK like (4340 steel is tougher than 5140). Tough to find... in both cases. Unless you already have them, don't plan a "build" around them.

This topic has been beat to death 42 times. These cars are a hobby for most. Hobbies aren't for "saving money". Try to stay focused...

Jim

Just across town, there is a 455 on the stand with a set of Crower I-Beam Rods. It spun the #1 and #2 main bearings and destroyed the crankshaft. We are seeing a lot of this on the local Pontiac scene and it has nothing to do with rod material.

I would not suggest spending more on a set of stock rods than you could buy a new set of Crower's for. That would be ridiculous. In my case, I do my own work, so the stock rods are cheap.

Almost everytime I have seen a rod failure, there was evidence to support a detonation condition, poor/improper assembly, oiling issues or overrevving.

Never, ever saw a problem with a 389 Pontiac. I have built several of those engines over the years (stock restorations) where the owners drove the hell out of them. Never saw a rod failure.

I built one 389 in particular for a gentleman. It was a 1965 GTO body-off restoration done by our shop. When it was done, he really abused this car. About 2 years after delivery, he complained about 1/4 mile performance. I drove down to Bakersfield Raceway and went for a ride with him.

Every shift, he revved the 389 until it would rev no more...the front end of the car would just lay down...and he was burrying the tach. I asked him why he was doing this as I felt the 389 was over and done with past 5300. He felt he was 'getting every last drop' out of the engine and had been driving it like this for two years.

I made a few passes shifting at 5500 and the 1/4 mile times immediately improved.

That engine, built in 1986, is still running and being taken to the drags on a regular basis.

I think a Chinese rod is OK as long as you bake them in an industrial oven for 8 hours at 400°F to stress relieve them. Smokey Yunick used to do this to SBC rods and it is detailed in a few publications. We started doing it on Flathead Ford V8's when I was working for the family business in high school.

Immediately after cooling them natuarlly, I would resize them to the low side of the tolerance.

The answer depends on how much you have to spend and what you intend on doing with the engine. That's just my take on the subject...Robert

That 'guy' is me and that's what I did on my 413. I bought a set of Pioneer Performance Rod Bolts from Ken at Re-Power Warehouse here in Visalia for $49.95. We still get a pretty good deal from Ken.

Time??? you must be joking. There is no way you could ever figure in the cost of labor, realistically, on a hobby car. I spent weeks porting and polishing the cylinder heads. My labor is free to me.

I picked (8) rods from several sets to find a group that all weighed nearly the same before balancing. We have done this for years and it works. It makes balancing much easier.

If you have ever balanced anything personally, you will know that sometimes you get a heavy rod that you just cannot bring into spec. Grouping rods into classes by weight is the best approach when you have enough cores.

I have never told anyone in this forum their time or effort was 'worthless' in any way...Robert

I'm not touching this topic with a ten foot keyboard. ;)

I've got a ten-foot pole, if you want to "not touch it" with that; it's left over from my last skunk-in-a-trap encounter!

There you go. Damn factory rods!:D

I normally agree with Cliff, Mr.P., etc. I will have to disagree on this one. This guy is buiding a "stock 400". If he plans on spinning it to sane RPM's, I say resize the factory rods with good bolts. They will live a long happy life. Unless, of course, you are going to some cheap dumna$$ engine builder (and there are plenty) who doesn't know how to build a Pontiac. Then maybe you should go with the aftermarket rods.

If he couldn't install a rope seal, why would you expect him to keep rods in the pan?:D

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, come on. LOL.

To me after blowing up 5 pontiac engines ALL ROD Breakage I would say dont waste time with the cast rods. These guys are making alot of sense to me anyway. The used rods are 30 years old. Who Knows how many times they were pushed to one mm of thier breaking point in the last 30 plus years over heated revved cold how many 100,000 of thousands of miles they may have? Thats alot of risk even in a stock engine rebuild. If I spend 4K on an engine I want my 4K worth. Here is another reason its very hard not to be HARD on your fresh motor after its been broken in. We all do it you need to see what she got. Its fun so you do it a few more times. Then a little higher rpm and a little higher just to test the power band right? Ok well I will be installing the most expensive rods I can afford in my next 455 stroker engine,because its cheap insurance. After suffering many months of down time because of cast rods I wont risk 3 or 4 k on the hope that I had the only strong set of cast rods out there.Its not a good risk a few hundred more than you spend to rebuild the old ones and you wont have to worry about 5500 rpm anymore. 6000 6500 will be red line with good rods. Cliff knows his stuff .Pdude says it depends on application. Sure you can run whatever you want but I choose to listen to the experts and they will tell you run new aftermarket rods if you want to protect your investment. I look at it as for 300 extra bucks I know the engine wont be coming out for a rebuild next year because my 30 year old rod got brittle from being over worked. That is what happens to metal when it is over worked gets brittle and snaps.

One of the main reasons why we have far fewer pontiac engine failures is the reintroduction of better quality rods at an affordable cost. Eagles, Scat, Cat, etc all fit the better than stock cast rods defination.

If you want to step up to Crowers, Oliver, or even Carrillos the rods are there thanks to the ability to use the 2.25 or 2.20 rod bearings.

I personally would not even use the cast rods as weight for my boat anchor. There are better boat anchor materials.

JMO

Tom V.

Maybe I should cave to the consensus on the aftermarket rods. A few hundred dollars isn't that much in the scheme of a rebuild. I must say though, I must have been living in a cave. I haven't heard of all these Pontiac rod failures. With all the sets out there, we should be seeing a post an hour. I've been beating the ***** out of mine for 20 years. My 455, in my younger days, saw 6grand all too often. I now know it does me no good. I shift at 5200 now. In a mild performance street engine I just don't see it being a great risk. Maybe I'm wrong, I was once before.:D You know, when I thought I was wrong and wasn't.:D I digress.

Now, please excuse me while I go tear down my ENGINE (My powerplant instructor refused to answer you if you called it a motor). Thanks to you, I'll be waking up in cold sweats otherwise.:D

I'm not telling anyone they made the wrong choices. I know what choice I will make and its all about protecting my investment is all. I have had enough of them let go on me that I wont risk it when money is at stake. Thats not to say If I found a running 455 that I wouldnt install it in my car just because it had stock rods. I mean if I am going to tear an engine down and pay for machine work I am going to spend the extra money to buy new rods. If I skimp on it mr murphy will strike I have no doubt of this due to my past experiences with cast rods. Mine didnt let go at 6000 rpm either were talking 4500 rpm on one 350 5200 on another 350. They just let go due to age and heat cycles. They are brittle to begin with thats why I wont use em. To each his own its not my car or money.

rods
 

Say if you wanted to get "new" rods for a 455
I see the Crowers are about 750
I see a set of GM forged on EBay for about 600 maybe will end up higher??
I see a bunch of buy it now 220 to 400 dollar H-Beam and other types on Ebay as well

To me 750 is big bucks on the budget end of things and then you gotta get the rest done to them .... but is the quality there on these cheaper EBay deals so I reckon you get what you pay for?
Or will there cheapies be better than my stock casts??

Where do you draw the line for a maybe rare occurance track motor??
Is it better to spend the bucks else where on my resto..????

Just make sure my revs are under 5800 I reckon

I have cast originals rods are .020 ovr ,,, with cast .030 pistons with a N crank???

Planning 6X heads and a 66 tri-power 3:23 posi and 4 speed muncie

It's been mentioned a few times about limiting the engine rpm's as insurance when using the cast rods. Consider this, to date we've broken one driveshaft and two stock 8.5 carriers right on the starting line. I wasn't looking at it, but the tach no doubt went off the scale! It promted me to install a rev-limiter this season.

Not much has been said about power level(s) either. We are making a LOT more power these days that the stock rods were designed for. The factory stepped up to forged rods for the somewhat "anemic" 73-74 Super Duty engines. What do you think they would have installed in most of the engines we build for our cars now? My warmed over 455 street engine makes 494hp/560tq, would cast rods have been used in this engine by GM?......Cliff

Very good point cliff

Quote:

"Consider this, to date we've broken one driveshaft and two stock 8.5 carriers right on the starting line. I wasn't looking at it, but the tach no doubt went off the scale!"

That one sentence says a WHOLE LOT! Miss a gear, break a part, so much for keeping the rpm under 5500.

Tom V.

So, It's cast rods and use the couple hundred saved for a rev limiter.:D SOLD!!

quote by Tom Vaught; "I personally would not even use the cast rods as weight for my boat anchor. There are better boat anchor materials."

You need to go back and read a few of the posts, carefully!