Judge Glove Box Emblem
 

Has anyone been able to narrow down a time as to when "The Judge" glove box emblem actually began showing up on cars? I've got a '69 with a build date of 02C and am wondering whether or not it should have the emblem. It was restored at one time and currently has the emblem, but I'm not sure that it is correct. Also, should this car have the "GTO" dash emblem? It is a non A/C car.

Which plant was it built at? That can make a few weeks plus/minus difference...

My Arlington-built Judge has the glovebox emblem and no dash emblem. Built 04A. It also has the rear quarter extensions.

My 02C Framingham Judge has neither the "GTO" or "The Judge" interior badging.

My 03A Baltimore Judge was built with no GTO or glove box emblems.

My Judge was built at the Freemont plant 02C. It does not have the GTO emblem on the dash, but since the dash is perfect, I suspect that it may have been redone at one time, and the emblem could have been left off.

There was a supplier problem in early 69, therefore Judge glove box emblems weren't put on cars until sometime in early february, 1969.

To answer your first question, it is actually possible to have a Judge built prior to mid February that has both the nameplate ensignia and the emblem.

I would say a build date prior to 2/10/69 would not have an emblem on it.

Conversely, I doubt any Judge built after around 2/20/69 had the GTO nameplate over the heater controls. However, I don't believe any A/C cars had the dash nameplate.

Hope this helps.

Taximan:
Are you saying in general Judges prior to 2/69 did not have the glove box emblem due to late production of emblem and Judges built after 2/69 did not have the dash GTO name plate because they ran out of name plates?
Mine was built in 6/69 and meets your criteria (glove box emblem but no name plate).

MY 03A BALTIMORE RAM IV JUDGE HAS THE EMBLEM. ARE YOU SURE SOMEONE DIDNT TAKE IT OFF?

The decision was made for some reason to discontinue the GTO nameplate over the heater controls. More than likely, when the supplier came through with the Judge glove box emblems, they didn't want both on the car. Besides, those GTO nameplates cost all of $2.00 in 1969. Why waste valuable money like that. Besides the GTO nameplate could be used on other GTO's.

I have never seen a February car with both, but supposedly a few were built.

I bought my car in the 80s from the original owner and he says the emblems were never on the dash

My 2C Baltimore built 69 Judge (carousel/parchment) had no Glovebox Emblem or GTO emblem over heater controls in 1985 when I bought it. It has the lower quarter extension trim. Had heard for years the early Cars had the heater control emblem like regular GTO's until the glovebox emblem was ready. Supposedly you got one or the other but not both. We still learn more everyday. I would have liked them all (non-ac) to had both.

The GTO nameplate over heater controls is as hard to find as The Judge emblem, but probably not as costly. In my area, I never found one and quit looking long long ago. Would think they would be plentiful. Curious if early-early 69 non-ac GTO all got the nameplate over heater controls or if it came a little later on as well.

Have a mint original glovebox emblem that will go on it anyway, since it seems to be borderline on build date acceptance.

A February car can have any combo of above on it, and it is considered correct.

I have done a lot of research ( I know I need to get a life), and talked to a bunch of people who know more than me, and were around in 69, and a couple of things stand out:

When you have a car that is built in 1969 (with tremendous time pressures on it from marketing) in 5 different plants, with probably 4 or more suppliers for many parts, nothing is cast in stone. There are many stories about Arlington built cars and how they differ more than any other. That seems to be the case. According to Paul Zazarine, the Pontiac built cars seem to be the most correct. They were the ones used as "look back" examples, and probably had the most experience assemblers, due to home office proximity.

It has long been held that the rear quarter trim pieces were added around mid year. Again, that was the case at some plants, not others. More than likely a supplier issue.

This is what makes GTO's so difficult to correctly and accurately concours judge. They had huge discrepancies in plant build characteristics.

The U.S. model gold standard for concours judging is the Corvette. Both NCRS and Bloomington Gold. Many years of research have been used to compile judging manuals that can tell you accurate details down to the letter that should be on the top of most bolts.

The reason is simple: All Corvettes came down the same assembly line between 1954 - 1981.

This might be of some interest.

Well that's saying it was deleted off all cars but The Judge.

Here's my take on it.
First, from Feb 24,1969 there shouldn't be a GTO emblem on the dash.
There probably was a bulletin for when the Judge emblem started.

But, if you're the factory worker putting these emblems on and they said delete the emblem except for the 'Judge', does that mean don't delete the 'GTO' because it's a Judge? Or don't delete the 'Judge' emblem and delete the 'GTO' emblem?
Probably kept both on until someone clarified it?
Different factories interpeted it differently?

that bulletin you posted is not a production bulletin but a memo to service dept personnel in dealerships. the guys on the line never saw that one

Keep in mind that during that period the Glove Box emblem would have been a popular over the parts counter piece at a price that would make us sick today. I know if I had a Judge, one of the flashiest, best marketed cars of it's time... I would have added it as soon they were available. Chic appeal and all that!!!!!!

emblems
 

my judge early feb car (1st week in feb) has no glove box emblem & has the dash emblem

early March car....
 

no "GTO", but glovebox"Judge".

Everyone has a story as to why the first 69 Judges did not have the glove box emblem. Jim Wangers had his own story which he shared while at the GTOAA show this year in St Louis. He said that Pontiac had intended to put that emblem on the first 1969 Judges but decided to not install them because they looked "too cheap." Later, John Delorean was driving a dealer rep around in a new Judge. The dealer rep told John that he was disappointed that from the driver's seat he couldn't tell a Judge from a normal GTO. The owner paid more for the Judge but from the inside you cannot tell. He suggested Pontiac should add something to the interior of the Judge to remind the owner, as he drove, that he owned a special GTO "Judge". So, John called back Pontiac and had them start putting the emblem onto the Judges. This explains why the early 1969 Judges did not have these glove box emblems - and why all Judges after that did.

Interesting story. This is the first that I've heard of that twist. I'm sure that we've all heard of the "the manufacturer of the emblem didn't get them out in time" story. It would be nice to have this information documented.

My all original 69 42,000 miler was built during the second week of April in the Arlington plant. It does NOT have the GTO emblem but DOES the have the beautiful Judge glovebox emblem as well as the rear quarter stainless trim.

My Judge built the third week of January in Baltimore has the GTO nameplate above the heater controls, has the stainless on the quarters and came with no Judge emblem on the glovebox. Before I knew any better in 1979/1980, I purchased an original glovebox emblem and installed it. I think I'll leave it that way for now.

I do have an NOS GTO emblem. I think I'll keep it unless Uncle Judge offers me $5,000 for it:heh: (inside joke) :p

Hi there Bet winner! Would you take $6,000 for it????

Well, I'll have to think about it. :rolleyes: