duel quads
 

who here runs 2 4's,and is it very streetable

I have them on 2 cars,VERY streetable.I have a 2-4 bathtub tunnel ram on a 446 in motor and a 2-4 flat dual plane on a 366CI motor.There is a pic of the flat intake in the 61-63 tempest tech under 63 safari.Tom

I run dual Holley 660's on a Wenzler tunnel ram on my D port 462 in my 68 Firebird. On my combination after some moderate modifications this setup is extremely streetable. It starts right up cold with no chokes in winter. I drive it around the block, or to the track and race it, or to the shore 2 hours away. No problems no complaints. I have also had stock 660's on an Offy with spacers and they were real crisp with no modifications. Never ran dual q jets or vac sec Holleys but by their nature (the Q Jets) should be phenomenal,... tuned correctly of course. Go for it.
Ray

just need to get a 2x4 intake.[cheap]dreaming??

they show up on ebay all the time.IMO the Offy is the better and the buick-pontiac EARLY AFBs are the easyest to street drive.Tom

Tom, I see on your safari (wow that's gorgeous) that you run progressive linkage. Is the other setup the same? I've only run a direct link and played with bellcrank etc to slow down throttle vs pedal travel. BTW I love your collection RA Vs etc. Ray

Ditto. (2) 750's on a Wenzler T-ram with a big solid roller. Very streetable (in my definition) and more response than the Victor/Dominator it replaced.

I run the factory SD progressive linkage on all street 2-4s.I set them up solid to race them.WAY easyer to drive on the street and actually gets good gas mileage.My 421 SD motor with a factory bathtub and a pair of NASCAR 750CFM AFBs gets 16-17 MPG in my coupe.Tom

I do have a pair of custom Tom Vaught 660s with double hump arms on my 2-4 303 RA V Xram intake.The motor really did not like them on the dyno as too much too soon.We cant run any vac sec or double pumpers on the intake.Next time we are trying a set of 450 CFM man sec holleys.REALLY would like to get it driveable for my T/A.Tom

Tom I had the same problem of too much too soon. First I reworked the primary metering blocks from 2 600s (w/ power valves) to matching air and fuel circuits and jetted downto 65 jets. then i ground the hump in the throttle arm to delay the secondaries somewhat. Lastly I replaced single hole pump cams with double hole cam of same profile (From double pumper 50 cc pump) in upside down position , or standard position on dp carbs. Oh and screw in high speed air bleeds on primaries helped too. All of this made it very very streetable. I drive the car as often as possible. Ray

remember my motor is only 390CI with ports that really dont come on strong untill 4000RPMs!We started the dyno pulls at 3000,next time we will start them at 4000 so we dont bog the motor.If AFBs would work on the Xram,I would use them in a heartbeat.Tom

modified 660's on wentler t ram.

Tom I understand entirely, my cam is still sound asleep at 3000 rpm, but when it wakes up it has a very bad attitude. I also locked the timing at 34 and by adding 2" headers and 3.5" exhaust was able to idle down from 1200 to 900 before touching mixture screws. BTW at this point I can cruise around in 5th (OD) at 1200 or 1500 rpms and roll into the gas without a bog. That took a lot of work. But I wish I had your challenge. I've seen two RA Vs though. ok so one was a bare 303 block and rods. Maybe someday. Ray

Firebird, I just bought an Offy 2-4 intake with Holley 600's. Check with Glen at 630-649-1700 or [email protected] for an Offy intake.

Cool set up.

I will be running a similar set up on my '63 Le Mans when it's done. My intake still has 2 Ron's flying toilets on it (alcohol injection). I plan on changing to carburetors since I don't want to run alcohol on the street.

I still can't decided if I'm going with Holley's or AFB's. :confused:

Can you give us some more info on your combination?

if you want it to "look" anything nostalgia go the AFBs and the correct aircleaners.JMO,Tom

Tom,
 

who has the original AFB's and air cleaners for sale?:) I'm using an offy high rise intake with modern AFB's and aftermarket air cleaners.

Is a single 4 faster though?
 

I've often thought of running the Edelbrock 2x4 intake under the hood of my Formula for something different but have already read that a single 4 is faster?

V/R,
Ty

PY sells the aircleaners.If you use buick AFBs you can use the factory fuel lines which are avail aftermarket.As far as the factory carbs,the last carb I sold was $1500 and the restored set before that was $4000.NOT for the weak walet!Tom

WOW
 

and to think of all the old AFB's I junked back when we had a salvage! Guess the modern weber AFB's will have to do.:-ohwell:
As far as which is better, I took this off, 850 dp demon, doug nash, to go to the 2x4's, I love the look and sound (wide open) of the 2x4's. I firmly believe that the 2x4's when tuned and set up right, will go just as quick as a single four barrel on the street. I finally have everything needed to complete my setup, and will get started with the final installation soon.:biggerGri

Been running 2X4's (offy high rise and 500 1403's ) for about 5 years now. I have had zero problems on the street.

all look really nice

A couple modified Holley 850s on my "custom" T-ram.

.First I'd like to apologize to everyone for that ridiculously huge image of my dopy carb linkage which is causing all of us to have to scroll back and forth to read the text of each post, long or short. I may be able to work on them there carb thingysbut I'm a little lost with anything more than just typing. (not good with the postal system either). But I digress.

Second, I agree with everything Tom said, from nostalgic look to ease of setup and tuning, the offy and afb's or vac/sec holleys and original air cleaners are the way to go.

third , sorry this is so long.

...But I have issues, Two years ago Paul (Spotts) had me do a basic rebuild and port match on a pair of 660's and spacers on an Offy intake. He told me to drop it on my engine and tune it and see if I liked the setup. Bottom line it took me two months to give it back and I kicked and screamed all the way. Well since I had just gotten my glass hood which was the first one out of the mold (the super 400, I built the original and Paul made me get it molded) so I was taking measurements for a victor/dominator combo and seeing what else would fit. so the T ram I,d been eyeing for a while on Pauls shelf came home with me. I got another set of the carbs and went to work. Two years later and here i am with this setup, mostly just because I can fit it under my hood. BTW I run a Hemi 2x4 filter built into the hood and the carbs don't really know what they are anymore... airflow, fuel circuits etc. And one of these days theres going to be a blower/ fuel injection setup under the hood strangely reminiscent of Pauls and he's going to go to start his dragster and... well anyway im pretty sure that'll fit too. i have issues!

R 70 Judge My combo; 68 firebird, Tremec TKO, 12 bolt w/ 3.73s narrowed 6 inches moser axles etc. Minitubbed2.5" , Caltrac bars and split monos, homemade weld in frame connectors and 8 point roll bar. BFG 295 65 15 Drag radials in back.
Motor : 71 two bolt 455 .030 over. stock rods, ARP rod and main bolts Stock N crank, forged TRWs bottom end is not balanced. #13heads ported but I actually forget flow numbers but I kept the ports small, and mirror polished the chambers to thwart detonation at 11.5+ compression. 1.6 roller rockers stainless valves etc. Heres the kicker, the cam. Comp. Cams 320 H which is a flat hydraulic race grind, with 268 at .050 duration and 580 lift single pattern with o ton o overlap to drive on the street. Accel racing dualpoint with 1 set removed (to run with MSD 6 AL) locked at 34. 2" Hedman Huslers with Flow master 4-2-1 collectors, 3.5 " exhaust w/ crossover and Flowmaster Delta Force race mufflers exiting just in front of rear tires. So back to the kicker, this cam is just silly for the street (for people without issues) but I think Paul thought he was getting me back for something past or future and as it turns out he cant pick a bad cam even when he tries. LOL. Spotty and I have been friends for a long time. All that overlap dropped my cranking compression from 240 psi to 180 so I 'm running pump gas on the street And I'm supposed to say that Paul does not want his name mentioned inconnection with the pump gas thing or when I say that I shift at 6200 rpm every time I race it. Please don't don't make me explain or defend my inability to see the red needle set at 5500 because every time I do I'm pretty sure I push the great track cleanup a little closer, but I've been driving it like this for years and if I change now , well you know. So this is really a street car that sees the track a few times a year for a current best of 11.457 at 123.93 with a 1.753 short time. I grocery shop and even do my Christmas shopping in it. I live in Pennsylvania so nuff said. In fact I think I'm done. Thanks for bearing with me. Ray

Nice to know I'm not the only 1 in PA that Christmas shops in my GTO...nice to have that trunk to drop packages into!!!

Not quite a Pontiac but my high school daily driver(threw papers out of it too) was a dual quad 409. It used dual 715 cfm Holleys no PV (a tunnel ram carb) mounted sideways on Offy adapters and linkage. The vacuum dashpots wouldn't fit so we put the old screw in the linkage and had all 8 barrels open. Didn't seem to have any drivability issues but it was a stick. The primaries with the accelrator pumps were each on one plenum with the configuration. Now all ther rubber line wouldn't pass tech now adays but did pass IHRA in 1972.

Here's another dual quad setup for you, just mocked up.

:drive: thats right rub it in

I am running 2 750 Edelbrocks(manual choke versions which have different airbleeds than the e choke versions) on a P65 with 1 inch 4 hole spacers. This is on a mild 400 with Crower 60916 cam 2200 convertor mildly ported #46 (1969) heads with 2.11/1.77 valves screw in studs etc.approx. 9.5 compression. I tried straight linkage but too responsive in stop and go traffic so switched to progressive. Set up as follows. primary throttle on front carb set so .002" feeler gauge slides through .003" wont. Idle speed is set from rear carb. idle mixture screws on front carb just under 1 full turn out from seated. rear carb screws set almost 1.5 turns out. floats and accelerator pumps set per edelbrock 750 spec.. orange metering rod springs(stock edelbrock) best jetting so far is .107 primary jets with 65/52 metering rods (both carbs) secondary jets are .101 . This setup seems to be working the best for me. I am planning to try .104 primary jets with 60/52 metering rods after I get some track time on present combo. This is a smooth setup and has NO bad manners. If I were to build a higher rpm motor I think the Offy hi rise dual quad would be a better choice. I think the P65 is fine on a 5500 rpm motor and a better choice than the low rise offy.

Bruce,I think the P65 is a fine intake,for the nostalgia look I push the Offy as the carbs are spaced like the Pontiac SD intakes,if you use the small top older AFBs from Buick the jetting is close to a pontiac,the aftermarket fuel lines will fit and the reproduced SD air cleaners and linkage will fit.NOTHING wrong with the P65 setup just not as "close" to the original look.Tom

Question ... is there a High Rise dual quad that will fit my 1960 "109" heads? Im looking for something that will out perform my 59 tripower setup.

never seen a high rise early intake,maybe Jon will reply.Tom

If you look real close those are the same Holleys as on the "09!

Skip..........
 

I hate you:biggerGri

Bruce - how high is high?

Check the link, which lists the multicarb manifolds available for Pontiac of which I am aware:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Pon...emanifolds.htm

The Offy manifolds labeled as "competition" are somewhat higher than the others. The M/T cross ram is also higher than the others. This manifold has gotten a bad rap as some have used it with bowtie carbs instead of Pontiac carbs, and gotten less than desirable results (which is predictable).

I have no doubt that virtually any of the listed dual quads (with appropriate carbs) would outperform the 1959 tripower.

Jon.

That intake fits E-Heads? :confused:

this is my sons setup, car runs way better than with single holley.. 440 magnum
http://img8.picsplace.to/img8/1/thumbs/DSC02085.JPG

crssram.
i want to buy your crossram.
how much for the women and children?
i mean, the crossram.
how much for the crossram, AND the women?

Sorry guys, I've always liked the look of a crossram since Edlebrock made them pre tunnel ram days(yes I'm that old). They might not perform any better but they look cool.HArd to beat the look of multi carbs.

Yes it's been converted to fit late model heads by one of Tom Vaught's buddies with the plenum balance tube added also. Will probably go on my RAIV heads and a 400 one day,probably with dual Holleys of some size,or if I can figure how to add some short injectors underneath make it an EFI intake.The long runners should make it good for that.Down side is it doesn't flow any better than a stock intake on high flowing heads

yes, we must find a way to bump skip off, then steal that power ram intake, then share it amongst ourselves.....

BWA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!

Now if you can find me a 409 M/T crossram for less that a grand maybe we'll talk!

You like that one guys?

I have a "sister" to it sitting on the bench that was made by the same friend of mine. The front cross-over was modded to fit the late heads and was the most work.

Skip's Manifold has a tube with a "divit" to allow clearance with the lower part of the carb levers (AFB and Holley). My intake does not have the "divit" as I modify the Holley lever arms anyway to use the 427 Dual Quad lever arms.

My next cross ram will be a cut down piece that takes Weber side draft carbs.

If you look closely you can see the mounting pillar on the front of the intake cross-over to use the 65 Tri-power dual alternator brackets too.

Tom V.

The 59 SD aluminum tripower manifold looks the same as the iron intake I have now. Guess it saves weight. The Edelbrock P22 looks like my P65 except for the head flange/waterneck difference. That 5029 Offy looks interesting. The 5707 is probably what Im looking for. I lost my old Offy catalog but if I remember the plenum was taller and the runners were a straighter shot to the ports vs the low rise's slight uphill path. Also of interest to me is the 5756 competition dual spreadbore. I got some thermoquads I'd like to try on one of those. Thanks for your link Jon

Bruce,
We keep hearing how bad the E'brock AFB's are [ not from me ], but yours have worked well. Maybe you got lucky, huh. I love my 800 AFB. I cannot fault it any way.

Geoff - carburetion can be anything from hiring a 15 year old to stand on the running board and pour gas into the engine out of a boot up to ??? ;) The e-clones may be used if you don't have running boards ;)

Most anything will "work" on most anything. The questions are, how well, and how long.

Jon.

Tom V,
 

Skip wont sell or trade his crossram :( ,is your's available?
Please e mail me when you get the chance. Thanks.
[email protected]

There are a few things with the Edelbrock AFB's that I dont like or have had issues with. #1 is the calibration out of the box may be fine for a 350 Chevy , but the manual choke versions are a little too rich and the echoke versions are too lean. They do tell you that one is calibrated for economy/emissions and the other for performance and what you see in the jetting specs for each looks like it is only a jetting/metering rod/spring change. You find out when you start looking at them that the air bleeds etc. are way different. Overall the manual choke versions are a better choice with the ebrocks. #2 the air valve weight balance is doesnt work to well on a single 4 Pontiac application and comes in to soon. usually anywhere from a pop too a big bog. #3 I have had needle seat issues (leaking) after about a years use. Edelbrocks standard replacement is worse. I havent tried their off road needle/seat assemblies yet.

Your 800"AFB" is an AVS. I havent tried the Ebrock version of the AVS and cant comment other than it is a step in the right direction. I have had good luck with the MOPAR versions from the late 60's early 70's. Im looking for a few cheap used ones.

I agree with Jon that the "Pontiac" AFB's are a better choice as well as the older Competition Series AFB's. The only thing I feel is an improvement on the Ebrocks is the accelerator pump and elimination of the pump/float well check valve . No more shrivelled leather cups or stuck check valve. Oh the Ebrocks are shinier too.

The main reason Im using them is because I have them. I got 2 of them FREE and my other 3 I paid $50.00 or less each. (The $50.0 one was a manual choke 750 that was on a 305 Chevy for 1 week essentially brand new. The owner claiming he'll never run an AFB again he bolted on a 600 cfm Holley vac secondary and thinks its great). The other carbs were suffering from maladjustment dirt and stupidity.

Bruce - you paid too much!!! ;)

As to the problems with the needles and seats leaking, I can't blame this on edelbrock. A couple of years ago, the company that makes the fuel valves eliminated the "staking" step in order to reduce costs (and reliability).

This goes for any new fuel valve: try staking the valve prior to use. This seems to help the new valves last longer.

As to the shriveled up leather accelerator pumps: this was a problem with some of the aftermarket kits which used other than "crown" leather for the accelerator pumps; not with the leather design. Again, the company making the pumps was reducing costs which is the reason we have neopreme pumps today. Today, in manufacturer quanties, the cost of a crown leather accelerator pump is more than 20 times the cost of the garbage neopreme pumps (yet the crown leather pump will last indefinately). We are making our own crown leather pumps for most applications.

There is an old saying that "you get what you pay for". Probably not totally true today. I have paraphrased the saying into "you don't get what you don't pay for". Unfortunately sometimes you also don't get what you do pay for.

Jon.

Quote:

"Skip wont sell or trade his crossram ,is your's available?"

I had the first manifold created, Skip saw the photos and said he wanted one too. After going through all of that effort why would I simply sell the thing? The unit is not for sale or trade.

The untouched "other unit" will be (as I mentioned) be modded for the weber side draft set-up I hope to run at some point.

The cross rams are still out there, I see them often if you are willing to pay the coin asked for them. I saw 4 of them at Norwalk last year.

Tom V.

We have one for sale.

Jon.