RA IV Restamp vs Original value
 

Here is my rather sad tale. I bought a '69 RA IV Judge roughly three years ago. I was told that it had the "correct numbers matching" engine. I inspected the engine and sure enough, the block code and VIN were stamped in the correct locations. The date code fit the build of the car, and the block cast number had the last 4 digits milled off and stamped with "2506". Having owned Pontiacs on and off for more than 25 years, I am familiar with the font size an type of the alphanumerics used in the factory stampings. The stampings on this block appear correct. Through the efforts of several PY members, we were able to determine that this car was missing its original engine at least as far back as 1981, and remained as such when the guy that I purchased it from bought the car in the 1992 time frame. It appears that the guy that sold me this car purchased the engine with a restamped block from some outfit in Michigan. Naturally, this information was never presented to me by the previous owner and I have been unable to speak with him regarding this. So, my question is this, how badly is the potential value of this car hurt by having a restamped block? The block that was used is not a SR block.

No one will ever know unless it is a 2-bolt main block and the pan is removed. If you plan on keeping the car, what's the difference? The engines are identical except for the four bolt mains. The heads, intake, etc. are another story, as they are unique to RAIV.

As you can see from the Barrett-Jackson auctions, numbers matching is getting to be a smaller factor each year. Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, and other popular collector cars with upgraded drivetrains are going for big bucks.

I would love to have a Judge with all the RAIV parts, but a 455 block marked like yours is-or not marked like yours.

Did it start life as a R.A. 4 ? PHS doc's ??

If so it will make a difference, but that much of one.

The car is a PHS documented RA IV Judge. The block is a 400 block. I do not know whether or not it has 4-bolt main caps, as I've never had it apart. The engine and drive train had been recently rebuilt before I bought it. It is not difficult to convert a 2-bolt block to a 4-bolt, so even if it has 4-bolt main caps, it may still not be an original RA IV block.

[QUOTE=Dick Boneske]No one will ever know unless it is a 2-bolt main block and the pan is removed. If you plan on keeping the car, what's the difference? The engines are identical except for the four bolt mains. The heads, intake, etc. are another story, as they are unique to RAIV.QUOTE]

If BLKBRD figured it out...others can too (and will), so I don't agree that no one will ever know. I also agree that owning it this way and selling it this way are two different birds, but lets face it, sometime down the road in someone's life, it will be sold, and then what?

I was doing some reading on restamping in the auto hobby, and it seems to happen a lot, though still considered unethical. There are machine shops that are duplicating the factory machining patterns on the front of the engine and stamping them, making it very hard to identify.

I am not sure on value, though. I tend to agree that it is becoming less and less of a consideration as the price continues to go up for all types of muscle cars, but I would bet that there will still continue to be a considerable price difference for the collector of originals, that are collecting numbers matching, factory correct vehicles.

Sorry, not much help, but I will be watching this topic as I am curious of what the more educated PY members have to say about it.

I would never sell the car as it was sold to me. I would divulge what I know. Unfortunately, you know that someone else down the road would sell it as the original engine. I have debated about "X" ing out the VIN to ensure that this is not the case. The configuration of this car is very unique as Judges go(white with black bench interior and auto on the column), so there are people out there that would recognize it and know that it shouldn't have the original engine.

If it bothers you so much then buy a Sr block. I dont think the value of your car will be much less with a SR block. I'm surprised that someone would have gone through that much trouble in the early 90's.

To me this brings up a couple of interesting theoretical questions.

1) What is the difference between restoring the motor by recreating an "original" block by restamping it and restoring a car by rebodying it? (I know rebodying has been discussed ad-nauseum on several boards and there are people firmly on both sides of that issue. I don't want to open up that can of worms here again.)

2) If someone goes to the trouble to recreate a RAIV block by starting with an appropriate date coded block, grinding and restamping the part number, resurfacing and stamping the vin and block codes, and converting it to a four bolt mains, would this be less damaging to the value than having an SR block or than having the correct coded block with the wrong vin#?

What a coincidence! I was just asking about this in the `70 - 72 gto lemans tech page about sr blocks versus original #s matching blocks, i understand that rare blocks like the ram iv would make a difference but what about the ram 3 or standard 400 blocks as far as the sr blocks and the orig. #s matching blocks? especially when the sr. blocks are within the warr. period on the build date of the car?

I was part of the last rebody debate :) The simple answer, for both sides of the "arguement" that you pose in #1 is...There is no difference. But, you're right...don't open that can of worms ;)

To your point #2....It seems that an SR block is more acceptable than a restamp because you are doing the "closest to original" (as it came off the GM line), with genuine GM approved replacement parts. I could be wrong, but it seems that the majority of "The Hobby" sort of dictates what is really acceptible and what is not...SR is, restamps are not.

I have no doubt that BLKBRD wouldn't disclose it, but somewhere down the line, someone may not be so honest, and end up in the same position as he. Would a restamp bring equivelant to an SR...I would say likely, but neither will bring what an actual original numbers matching will bring, which is what BLKBRD is trying to get an understanding of...

How were you able to determine the restamped status of the block? If you can document your findings and document that the car was advertised as having the original block, I believe you could sue the seller. Not knowing when the transaction took place, there are issues regarding statutes of limitiations and determining damages. In any case, i would go after the lying bastard who sold you the car. if lying bastards realize that cant get away with this kind of stuff, maybe it would stop.

I cant believe the number of liars and thieves in this hobby. It seems that liars and thieves are drawn to the pontiac hobby for some reason.

The following is a list of car values deterimined by engine status. I welcome comments and/or additions to the list.

1) Original motor
2) Correct SR block (i.e. SR WW motor for RAIV 4sp car) within warranty period
3) Correct SR block, outside warranty period
4) Correct motor (i.e. WW motor from another RAIV 4sp car, different VIN), correctly dated
5) Correct motor, incorrectly dated
6) Incorrect SR block (i.e. SR WT motor for RAIV 4sp car) within warranty period
7) Incorrect SR block, outside warranty period
8) Incorrect motor, correctly dated
9) Incorrect motor, incorrectly dated
10) Any non-pontiac motor other than a Chevy motor
11) Chevy motor

If you think there are a lot of crooks in the Pontiac hobby, it's nothing compared to Corvettes.

There are probably twice as many Big Block mid year Vettes today, then were ever built. At least Pontiac has PHS. Corvette has nothing but some frustrated science teacher that says he has enough pictures of block stampings to tell whether its original or not.

There are even garage shops that advertise for milling and re-stamping blocks to look original.

What outfit in Michigan?

High prices breed deceit. It is a function of the hot market that currently exists for all makes.

Well , ya gotta figure on how many of these cars were beat on and had rods come through the block .I personally think that restamping blocks sucks but it happens to alot of cars and probably will never stop.Its not only a problem with Pontiacs ,but in all of the musclecar world .
If a block is restamped,how can it be a numbers matching car?I seen alot of cars without their motors/trannys come in where I work ,then a few years later they magically have their original numbers matching drivetrain in them .Whats up with that?

I think on the engine value list a correct block with wrong date or VIN should rate higher than any SR block. Just check out what a WW block goes for vs. an SR block. Way more money. Of course here were talking about the rarest 69 RAIV block-XP code and 165 produced. I dont think I would fret about the restamped block. If the date code is close to the build date-a RAIV car gets even more leeway than a normal car- then no one would even know its not original except you just told us. Putting in a SR block is not worth the hassle. Enjoy the car for what it is-one of the rarest 69 GTO hardtops made.

I am not sure that it is not a real "XP" code RA IV engine that has had the VIN number restamped. Another PY member was familiar with this car more than six months before I purchased it. He had called the previous owner about another car that he had for sale, and was told about my car. At that time, the previous owner told him that my car had a correct "XP" code engine, but that it was not the original. I don't believe that the previous owner mentioned that it was a restamp. The previous owner told him that he bought the engine from an outfit in Michigan that built up these motors, and that he paid $8k for it at the time. Three or more years ago, $8k would have been a good deal of money for a complete RA IV engine. The advertisement that I saw for the car mentioned "correct XP code engine". When I called to inquire about the car, I asked if it was a numbers matching engine, and I was told that it was. I spent roughly one week conversing with the previous owner over the phone and via e-mail while attempting to obtain part numbers and date codes of other engine components. I had already purchased a plane ticket before the owner had confirmed that the tranny was also numbers matching. The guy either did not know where to look for the part numbers and date codes, or put on a good act, because I had to direct him to almost every location. When I inspected the car, I verified that the date code, block code, and VIN all appeared correct. I guess that I should have asked if it was the original engine. I naively thougtht that I was asking that by asking if it was numbers matching. The car had been for sale for at least six months before I inquired about it. I suspect that the previous owner had trouble selling it honestly, so he chose to sell it dishonestly. In the package that I received with the car was a list of handwritten items that the previous owner jotted down regarding the car. It appears that this was a list of items that he intended to include in an advertisement. One of the items listed specifically said "Numbers matching engine".

I'm sure the car is worth probable double what you paid for it. I would much rather have a Sr block than someone elses WW block. I dont know why people pay so much for the WW's when they are wrong for their car.

This car has cool background story from the dealership it was delivered too.

I know a guy here in Tulsa that is going to check his IV stock to see if he has the mate to BLKBRD's car. If anyone out there has a lost IV block, don't be shy to try and help BLKBRD out. I'd like to see the two come back together.

In case you guys haven't guessed by now, Steved400's investigative work was instrumental in determining the history of this car. I can't thank him enough... I think. ;)

I believe there is a difference between "original" and "numbers matching". If the seller never stated "original" (in words or writing), it may be difficult to get damages in a court.

I'm going to look at a 69 Judge today, heres my checklist of things to bring: 1) my lawyer
2)my restoration expert
3)my pontiac mechanic
4)my accountant
5)a big bag of cash
We should start a reality TV show a la The Apprentice, where guys go and negotiate and buy rare musclecars, restore them and then sell them on ebay , the biggest profit wins and the winner gets his head on a platter on PY forums for being so successful

I can make no comment on a restamped or service replacement block.

However, when it comes to carburetors: a service replacement (OF THE SAME PART NUMBER) is worth from 1/3 to 1/2 of an original. A restamped carburetor has no value other than for the unmolested parts.

Jon.

great idea !!!

Bermuda Blue,

I agree with you completely. Although the two terms are generally considered one in the same, they aren't. I suspect that twenty years ago, you could use the term "numbers matching", and everyone would assume that you meant original. I have no intention of taking the guy to court, and since the car has only increased in value, I don't suspect that I'd have much of an argument.

Just another thought (and, playing devil's advocate)- How exactly did you ascertain that the block was restamped? From what I have gathered reading this, it was from conversations with people who had known of the car. Nothing on the engine itself, no part of the stamping, and nothing on the castings, indicate anything other than an engine VIN stamp that matches that of the vehicle.
Under these circumstances, what you really have is nothing but some person's memory, and a bit of conjecture. There is nothing in writing, or that can be produced in court, that would show anything more concrete. Memories of "people familiar with the car" (although, never actually owning it) won't hold any weight whatsoever in any type of lawsuit against the seller.
If the engine date codes are correct, has the correct RA parts, and bears VIN and engine code stamps that are identical to those stamped by GM at the factory, I'd say stop losing sleep over it. The faded memories of the people that you spoke with may not be perfect, either, and beating yourself up over this has no value.

I admit I've drank a few six packs and slept with even more fat women since that time long ago, but I was pretty darn close on recalling the details.

Without questioning memory and what people said, did you find any indicators on the block that prove it as a restamp? If so, what was it? (if you don't mind sharing).

This is way off track.

I suggested to BLKBRD; from what I remembered about the car, that it suddenly reappearing with the number match block was questionable. Especially after hearing the story the seller gave him about how the block and car were magically reunited. So he dug a little deeper and has concluded that it's highly likely he was dubbed. At least that is my synopsis of the current posistion.

At any rate, it all led to some VERY interesting stories from the original dealers/partners that ordered the car. And there is still a good chance this guy in Tulsa may have the block, as soon as he gets done fighting wild fires he promises to look into the matter for BLKBRD.

Depends on the state. Where did you buy the car?

Frank

This doesn't eviscerate the argument, just makes the proofs that much more difficult. Certainly not insurmountable.

I realize that you are not interested in pursuing a claim, so this point is moot.

Frank

I agree with what TJH said above. Someone told me that there was a way to tell if a block had been machined and then restamped. He said that the original stamps leave a indentation deep in the metal. I dont know if he is full of Sh t but it would be interesting if they could do that. I have the same issue with my ra4. The guy who I purchased it from states that its the oringal block but that he stored it for 15 years face down and then had to machine the front because it was so rusty? The money I paid for the car was not high because he could not prove it was the original block. I purchased a SR block but would hate to put that in there and then some day find out it was the original motor.

BLKBRD,
I remembered talking with you via email about your engine and carb but could not recall the exact details. Sounds like you have uncovered more info since then. Its too bad cars like this have had the engines removed from them. I personally know of only 2 69 Judges with RAIV and column shift automatic/bench seat combination-yours and mine. Jim

The subject of chasing down SR RA blocks & shortblocks for RA cars is to say the least, amusing. Unless the car had the shortblock warranteed through the dealer & zone office & one has real paperwork to support the installation of this SR, what does one have? Whether one wants to hear it or not, they've got an NOM car with a "bought" SR block, how "correct" can that be???

Original block or flawless restamped correct dated replacement...
Given an original RA engine that's been blown up at least once, probably been sleeved & decked, had some dufus stamping a tracking number on the the block face... no thanks, I'd rather pay to have a:

-Correct quality casting (no more than .030 bored & honed, ck'ed for core shift)
-Correctly linebored & capped
-Correct dated
-Correct surfaced & correct font code stamped...
Correct REPLACEMENT RA block... call it a restamp if you like, but
IF, the day ever came, & I was going to sell one of my keepers car with
such a block, I'd represent the car as such.

TJH,

The information that I've been able to aquire (thanks to Steved400) is without question accurate. Not only did Steved400 nearly purchase this car in 1981 (at which point it had a 455 c.i. in it), but he put me in touch with a friend of his that actually bought the car in 1991. In 1991, it still had the 455 in it. This guy then sold the car to his brother, whom I also spoke with, and he verified that the car still had the 455 in it when he sold it to the guy that I bought it from. I know that it is the same car, because I was given pictures of the car in this guys driveway that had been taken by the guy that I bought it from. Sometime during the 10 year period that the guy that I bought it from owned it, it re-emerged as a numbers matching car. Let me also add that this car came with a rust free shell that the guy was going to use for a body swap. What does that tell you. Another PY member, who I'll leave out of this unless he doesn't mind being mentioned, mentioned to me some time ago that he had been told by the guy that I bought the car from that the engine was not the original and had been purchased from some outfit in Michigan. That conversation occured roughly 6 months before I bought it.

I'm not losing sleep or beating myself up over this, although I probably should be. The only reason that I'm inquiring about value is that the car was scheduled to go into the shop next month to begin a rather expensive restoration. I don't want to end up spending 50% more on the resto than this car is worth. I did enough of that when I was 18. There is no question that I'll need to adjust my resto budget, I just want to get an idea as to how much.

Ok, I'll go out on the limb. It's hard to do for two reason; one this is out of my league, and two prices are insane right now.

To me a bench seat white IV Judge is out of the ordinary, and I very much like the combo.

As the car sits, I say it's a $37,000 car.

I say with the motor, $62,000.

High level restore without the original motor, $115,000.

Same if the motor is found, $165,000.

Now if I restored the car, I'd need heavy lift springs in the rear because I like to cruise with a couple of big bottom girls and a full ice chest in the trunk. This is Redneck Country were I'm from, we do things a little different out here. Anyone comes this way, you're welcome to sleep in my Tpee.

I think it's kinda odd that it seems more GTO's prior to vin stamping seem to have the original engines and nobody questions the cars value. Knowing what I have seen in the car hobby I wouldn't pay extra for a numbers matching car unless I have known the car since new. BLKBIRD I wouldn't worry about a restamp block I think original engines are way over rated and are going to become less an issue as time passes. This is only my $.02 worth

Mike,

Thanks for the response. It appears that opinions vary drastically on this subject. I also agree with your assessment as to having knowledge of the car since new. I never thought that I would have to question the integrity of a vehicle that was properly stamped. Unfortunately, that will alway be on my mind when making future purchases.

been thinking about the original issue here: value of a car w/ original vs. restamped or non-original motor.

IMO, an NOM (not original motor) car will bring about 10% less that a comparalbe car w/ the original motor. But that original motor car better have rock-solid documentation.

For example:
Judge w/ original motor & docs.: $100,000.00
Similar Judge w/ out original motor: $90,000.00

What do you guys think?

If your grandma owned the car and you knew for sure then I would agree {maybe even as high as 20% more} but each year people are better at restoring cars and it's more difficult to spot a fake.

Any idea when "perfect" copies of Judges began to appear or became common place? I'm not talking wings & decals. I mean when people started spending the bucks on faking (or replacing missing) proper blocks/getting correct intakes/heads/carbs, etc. As mentioned earlier, it seems 1981 was way too early for anyone to waste even 5 bucks on this kind of work (I have nightmares of what we did to these kind'o cars in 81--spending $$ on original parts was not 1 of them!!). The value just wasn't there yet. Even 1991 seems a bit early, but we could attribute this to excellent gambling on the previous owner's/faker's/replacer's part. Of course that would be like going out tomorrow and restamping/faking a 1983 Mustang 5.0 (or whatever). Anyone breaking open their wallet on that roll of the dice?? Let's be real, faking a GTO was no one's first choice in those (81 or 91) days. Your money would have been much more wisely spent faking a 'vette or 'velle or hemi. And, in 81, even on these cars, we still would have been trashing original parts in order to make room for "high performance" parts! Hate to say that's the voice of experience! :doh:

Rx:GTO daily - actually, there WERE far-sighted people that were doing number matching restorations on GTO's (primarily RA IV's and Judges) in 1981. Not many, but a few. At that time, one could still find cars with original blocks, heads, etc. One often had to find original manifolds and carburetors (HRM "get rid of that quadrajunk and buy a Holley"), acquire original exhaust manifolds (headers), and acquire original wheels (Cragers). Dealer installed options were also hot.

I have personally seen restamped carburetors (7029273 especially) as early as 1980; definately not the sophication level as those of today, but restamped being sold as original. Still the very best restamps I have yet seen came out of southern California in the late 1980's. This guy could weld a fly's wings together while the fly was in the air! :(

I am aware of a 1964 LeMans convertible that was cloned locally into a 1964 GTO in 1985. And yes, it was sold as a GTO. :mad:

It has been going on a long time :mad: :mad: , but if one were not in the restoration business, one might not have noticed.

Jon.

This is just a guess, but I don't believe that the guy that I bought the car from purchased the engine in 1992. He had the car for 10 years before I bought it, and it was never registered during that time period. I suspect that he may have purchased the engine closer to the 2000 time frame. These cars were starting to increase in value at that time, but still had not gone insane.

I agree, in fact it is already happening,. Blackbird, I love your car, restamp or not. If the market holds, you won't lose money on that car if you choose to resell it. Ram Air IV Judges are highly sought after, when will that change? What would a guy looking for a Ram Air IV Judge, be willing to pay for one that is in decent shape, without original block. It is common knowledge, that several have sold for over $50,000. I would gladly pay 40,000 for such a car.

BLKBRD

Just talked to him yesterday about your motor, he still hasn't checked but is going to do it when he gets down to where they are stored.

Baron and a allmycarsarejunk,

Thanks for the input. When I get a chance, I'll take some pictures of the block stampings to see what others think of the quality of the restamp job. Someone had serious intensions of getting this thing back to it's original state.


steved400,

Thanks for the update.

Thanks for the info Jon (carbking)!! In my own tiny, lil mind, I obviously, thought that faking goats in the 80's was a super unusual occurence. Having seen enuf of your postings, Jon, I know that you know of what you speak!! Again, thanks for your info!!
To the owner of the RAIV...I express the same sentiments as posted by others...I would be thrilled to death to own your car! Obviously the guy went through every possible contortion to create a proper looking RA4.
Personally, and this is ONLY MY opinion, If it is not original (actual block, etc), then it hardly matters (to me anyway), what resides under the hood! Original block missing?? Have fun and do whatever you want!! I can relate to the guys were the only important thing is those original parts and once that has been made impossible (by block having been replaced/destroyed/whatever), then to me who cares?!? The only thing I hope to see is a Poncho engine under the hood...455, 400, 421...whatever floats your boat!
The reason I thought faking goats in the 80's was a super rarity revolves around the horror stories I can attest to. My 2 favorite are these (guaranteed to give douche chills to any cheby guy):
1. ~1979 I can vividly remember the sight of my buddy using a craftsman screwdriver to "pop" the fuel injection tags off his vette....why? cuz, "this FI bites and I'm putting a 4 bbl on!"
2. MY FAVORITE...1983, I can still, to this day, picture the intake and carb from my friends 450hp/454 1970 Chebelle SS (blue w/white stripes/white gut) sitting in the trash. Actually, I can actually see it there in the trash can, leaning up against the side of the can. This was all so we could make room for the dual quad setup that he just had to have!! I wish,at the least, that I had that manifold carb setup today!
Anyway, thanks again for the info guys!! blkbrd...enjoy your car!!!