Can I add Basecolor to the clearcoat???
 

I prefer the look of a single stage paint job compared to a bc/cc paint job.
I'm a rookie painter and felt bc/cc would be best for my experience level.

I was told, when spraying the clear to add some color to the clear for the first 2 coats. This would give the paint some depth, similar to a single stage.

Any opinions on this?

WOW
never heard dat.... paint depth have you seen a nice BC/CC job?? no compairson

I have to agree with Matador... I painted my car Starlight Black in single stage. I think Black with clear over it looks "plasticy".

humm so think its too shiny??? is a common with bc/cc for older cars it can come out looking too glossy but that is a technology difference between todays paints and yesterdays..
You could do Enamel it woudl be more durable that todays lacquers..

no way

I know with ppg you can put the base in your clear. Not sure about the other brands. I would only try this if it was a non metalic color though

in some cases you can do that..but why? There is absolutely no reason to do such a thing. BC/CC is the best system to use as a rookie. It breaks the things to worry about, into more manable steps. It requires more time and money, but is the best way to paint, epseically if using a metallic and if you are beginning. You can repair the BC/CC much easier than a SS paint job. By adding paint to the clear, you take away that advantage.

I thought thats why they made specific tints for clears.
Not to use base coat for "tinting".
Im not so sure that the base coat is even the same type paint.
I know its not catalyzed.

eric65- Yea, it's just too shiney for that original look. I don't like looking into a paint job and having to look through the clear to see the color layer.

Petesponies- I've been looking at alot of bc/cc cars (show cars & drivers) and they all seem to share that common look to them. Perhaps ther putting down too many clear coats causing that 2 layer look, I'm not sure. Some the cars the clear is smooth and shiney like glass, then I look down close into the paint and you can actually see the surface of the color. It's like looking into a cool running river and seeing the rocks laying at the bottom.

Is it painting technique or the system?

The amount of hours/dollars I have into this frame off, and the importance of this car,I want it to look as original as possible. Durability aside, Maybe I need to look at a laquer paint.

Cammer-6, I'll have to look into the tinting thing, thanks.

Oh, The car is a 69 GTO, Matador Red. (no metallic)

Putting some color in the clear coat sounds like a decent idea. Everybody knows how a CANDY paint job is put down right......spray the car silver or gold metallic or whatever the base coat is, and then put on multiple layers of basically what is tinted tranparent clear coat, usually topped off by some just plain clear on top of it. Of course the number of coats, and how much tint you put in each coat gives it the depth of a CANDY paint job. This of course is not exactly the same technology as BC/CC concept......but it will have some of the same effects.

I caution however with todays BC/CC, if you are going to put pigment tint into the clear, make sure you put enough plain clear coat on top of it. The clear is what gives the paint it's UV protection. Course if it nevers leaves the garage probably not a big deal.

Remember the old GM paint job....early 80's when they switched to BC/CC. The clear coat didn't have enough UV resistance, so the sunlight got down to the base coat, and certain colors like blue basecoat, the pigment were a great pathway for the UV rays to get right down to the epoxy e-coat primer. Result, UV rays go through the Clear, down through certain base coat pigments, hits the expoxy primer, turns the top layer of epoxy into chalk, and finally basecoat and clearcoat delaminate and fall off. Thats why all the hoods and roofs on certain colors flaked off to primer. GM didn't advertise it much, but it was a warranty claim even after the cars were many years old.....take it to a dealer and get a new paint job......but, GM only offered that if you took it to a dealer and complained basically.

alot of that was due to experimenting with water based paints vs solvent based

Bottom line, follow the directions. I would not put basecoat in clearcoat. If you like the single stage look, go with a high quality acrylic urethane and you'll like the results. I assume you are painting it matador red again, and if so if it were my car I'd look at possibly doing a single stage if it was garaged. If you intend to have the car as a driver, I'd Basecoat/Clearcoat it. irgoatmike

You could also spray single stage urethane, and then use a 50/50 mix of color and clear on the last 2 coats. However, this is more commonly done with solid colors.............

Well, with all the different opinions on this, I think I'll have to do some experimenting when I finish the body work (spring time).

The painters at work who mainly shoot bc/cc showcars, said Laquer....

before you spray lacquer, investigate what it takes to do a good lacquer job. I have done a couple Vettes lately that the owner insisted on lacquer. It is time intensive to do it right. Easy to spray, but hours and hours of work plus a couple weeks painting a drying time to do it right.

Don't be afraid of a little work. The results will be worth it.

PetesPonies, Were you happy with the results of your Laquer paint jobs?

It appears you paint professionally.....so I'm sure man hours,budgets,project scheduling and many other things come into play when you choose how to approach a resto. If you did NOT have to consider any of these would you still suggest bc/cc for a super paint job?

My questions are not intended to sound 'combative'.

Norwood,
What paint is on your car?

Don't be afraid of a little work. The results will be worth it.

That's exactly how I want to approach this paint job!! I don't want to use; cost of materials,ease of spraying,or time involved to determine the kind of paint I use.

I would like to benefit from new paint technologies,in terms of durability and UV protection. But.....If laquer is the only way to achieve that original look, I will sacrifice technology.

The paint that is currently on my car is Lacquer that was sprayed in about 1980. It still looks good, Of course it has always been garaged and taken care of. Today's paints are much more durable, but I to want the original look that only Lacquer can provide. I am currently in the process of redoing the car and I will be painting it with lacquer.

sure I like the BC/CC. It is a better material than lacquer, plain and simple. If you like lacquer that is fine. If the car is proetced it will hold up fine, but with acid rain and bird doo-doo..the urethane products are hard to beat. And time wise, it does take less time with BC/CC even counting the color sanding and buffing afterwards. Now a lacquer job can be done in a weekend, but I'm talking doing it right, which means a couple weeks to paint it.

interesting reading
 

1st todays painters add base to the clear to achieve a semi gloss for underhood and door jamb colors. You can add most companies base to there clear without a problem( metallics may blotch if put on to heavy) but not recommended for long term exposure to the sun/UV.

2nd as a 20 year veteran paint rep for BASF,Dupont, PPG, and Sikkens any single stage will give a deeper, cleaner look then BC/CC on solid colors. This is especially true on red and black.

3rd The grain that people see in the colorcoat under the new clears is part application and part which companies basecoat is used. The american companies like modified acrylic bases which has a grainy look over the european companies that use a polyester base which lays flatter when sprayed.The draw back to polyester is that the final sanding on the primer has to be a little finer on light metallics. SIkkens and BASF use a polyester and Dupont, PPG,Sherwin Williams use a modified acrylic. Most backyard painters prefer the american stuff because it will cover up bad prep.


The idea of putting clear in the last 2 coats of single stage is spot on. It gives you the look of single stage while also making it easier to buff.Also
for beginners ,with single stage you only go around the car 3/ 4 times.BC/CC you have to go around the car 6 to 7 times. Less chance of something going wrong the less time your in the booth.Single stage will also be more forgiving on the prep of the car.
Good luck

some inaccurate info here. Sorry to jump...but being a paint saleman does a painter not make :o( You made some generalities that I find not true. For example..going around the car 6 times means you have less chance of runs ( basically what you said )..well the problem with that and why BC/CC is actually better for the begineer is...laying base coats down is very very easy. You are not trying to achieve a gloss, so the application is different and is very easy compare to laying down a coat of SS. If you run some base..shame shame shame on you. Remember, you are not trying to achive a shine, just even coverage. If any mistakes are made during the CC, then fixing them is very easy. That is compared to any mistakes and fixes that must be done in SS. Heaven forbid if you make a mistake with a metallic SS..don't even think about being a first timer and fixing that. That is my experience with painting for 31 years.

BC/CC is the way to go for a beginner. Very easy to apply and very forgiving of mistakes and produces excellent results.

http://images16.fotki.com/v352/photo...MG_0211-vi.jpg

ram4judge....thanks for all the good info, are you saying that adding base to the clear will yield a semi-gloss finish?

Petesponies.... I stated above about looking thru the clear and seeing the texture of the basecoat below. 'ram4judge' expressed some possible causes of this.

What is your opinion?

Is it from not sanding the base smooth enough before clearing?

Does it need to have some 'tooth' for the clear to adhere?

not just a salesman
 

Dear peteponies,I was a salesman for 20 and have painted for 25. As you know paint sales doesn't pay that much so I 've always had a shop on the side.That time didn't make me the best painter but did allow me into over 3,500 plus shops from high to low end and even some garages with wood burning stoves for heat. Yes clear is a little easier to spray but if you take your time w/SS and give it a little extra flash between coats it will hold just as well. Buffing a run is the same in BC/ CC as in single stage.And if you going to buff the entire car anyway you want can lay the SS or BC/CC down a little lighter and sand and polish the paint to the look desired, hence the reason for clear into the last 2 coats.I was just at Levelone Restoration in Denver Co and he had a maroon late 30's car that is awesome looking, his 70 GTO just to top restored GTO in the country and is the deepest black I've ever seen, both in single stage.

Someone had said that candies add base to clear to achieve that look. Yes this is true but most candies ( House of Color) use inks instead of pigmented toners to achieve the cleanest look. You can make a poor mans candy w/Pigmented toners but up close you will see the little dots of paint because pigments can't be ground fine enough like the inks can.

The other point of sanding base is a good ?.Yes , the nicest paint jobs I've seen done( Riddler cars, Good guys top cars Etc.) the painter will lay down 2-3 coats of base and let it dry good then come back and sand lightly w/800-1000 grit then lay the last to coats on. This really helps w/ the texture you see in metallic colors under the clear coat, but works nice on solids too.

And always remember,Its just paint, you can always sand it down and do it again.
Have fun.

The other point of sanding base is a good ?.Yes , the nicest paint jobs I've seen done( Riddler cars, Good guys top cars Etc.) the painter will lay down 2-3 coats of base and let it dry good then come back and sand lightly w/800-1000 grit then lay the last to coats on. This really helps w/ the texture you see in metallic colors under the clear coat, but works nice on solids too.


you don't mean 2 more coats of base after sanding do you?

On sanding the basecoat? Yes ,You'll want to get coverage on the car, this should take two or three coats. Then let it flash until the base is nice and firmed up, you want to use 800 or 1000 grit paper with a little bit of dish soap in the water( no fragrence) lightly sand the top of the base and you'll see the little dirt specs and any imperfections as you sand.I do 1 panel at a time and clean the sanding residue off the panel as soon as your done with that panel. When the entire car is done go back and re- wax and grease the entire car, then aply 2 more light coats of base. If it is a mettalic color you may want to add some slower reducer at this point to allow the base to lay super flat and eliminate the grainy look. let flash and clear.
Good luck.

That's how I did my SS Concept black.. 2 or 3 coats.. let it dry good, sand out imperfections with 600 or 800 (I forgot which I used), then I shot 2 or 3 more coats, then cut and buffed it.... very deep looking black

he's talking about sanding the base, not SS. as far as doing it this way...well you can, but typically you only touch base if there is a problem...if there are none...then nothing is gained. I would suggest, if you do this, to wash the car with warm soapy water and not induce a chemical ( wax/grease remover ) onto fresh base paint. If doing any artwork or custom painting..I was taught, and always follow this, that warm soapy water if the strongest chemical you should use on fresh paint during the painting cycle.

I've also heard to use warm water only, during the paint stage for rinsing off sanded material as there should be nothing on the surface requiring chemicals.

right..you don't want any solvents that may go into the freah paint and cause popping or trapped solvent problems later. You have to realize that base is naked..no protection at all.

I recently heard a bunch of painters talking about painting a dark blue car. They said that they shot a single stage urethane, sanded with 800,then shot a Bc/CC job. They said it gives a very deep look and they can see any imperfections that they may have missed. Any thoughts on this?