1970 455 HO vs. Olds 455 w-30
 

I see the prices that w-30's are getting $200K for convertibles and close to 100K for hardtops with 4spds and I've got to wonder why the HUGE difference between the Pontiac prices and Olds prices for what I believe is almost the same exact engine?

Is the W-30 that much better than the Pontiac?

I would appreciate some education and enlightenemt here (and not just the Pontiac Truck engine blah blah blah.) There must be something going on.

I don't think a 1970 455HO GTO is a good comparison to a 1970 442 W-30 car. The W-30 is the top performance package on the 442, so I would think a better comparison is the RA IV, which was the top performance package on the GTO. If you look at it that way the price gap narrows for what these cars are selling for in todays market. Similar to the RA IV Pontiac engines, a W-30 455 Olds is a "blue printed" engine with aluminum intake, special heads, camshaft and exhaust manifolds. The 1970 Pontiac 455 was a "D" port head engine, similar to what was available for a Bonneville.

I agree completely. Pontiacs top performance engine in '70 was not the 455 in a GTO. That is why they are not comparable to a '70 W-30.
On a side note. I took my drivers license test in a gold '70 W-30 442 4 speed conv.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org
"Real Poontiacs only....no corporate nonsense!"

I know all of that but isn't it true that the Pontiac engine and the Olds engine were rated the same horsepower? And just a huge note here: The W-30 is FAR OUTPACING THE RA4 as far as prices go.

STEVE - I bet you wish you had that convertible today!!

[QUOTE=70ra455]I know all of that but isn't it true that the Pontiac engine and the Olds engine were rated the same horsepower? And just a huge note here: The W-30 is FAR OUTPACING THE RA4 as far as prices go.


Your correct, horsepower was about the same. ’70 455 GTO = 360hp vs 70 455 442 = 365hp (W-30 455 = 370hp). Torque is the same, both the Pontiac and Olds produced 500lb-ft. The Olds had a little more stroke 4.25 vs Pontiac 4.21. However, I don’t think engine specs have anything to do with the pricing of these cars today. I believe it is all perception related to several factors. First factor is production numbers, there were far fewer ’70 442s produced (19,330) than ’70 GTOs (40,149). Breaking it down further 3,100 W-30s vs 4,146 455 GTOs produced in 1970. Today, there are probably fewer 442s and W-30s that show up on the auction block or listed for sale in publications. Second factor is the “big block/big engine” perception, in 1970 GTOs came standard with the 400CID vs the 442 came standard with the 455CID. So there is the perception out there that all ‘70 442s come with a “big block” and the GTO comes with a “small block” (which you and I know isn’t the case with Pontiacs). With this “big block/small block” mentality out there, the average prices of a standard 400 cid GTO, probably pull the average price down of the ’70 455 equipped GTOs (kind of like the small houses pull down the price of the big houses on the same street). Third factor is the Marketing perception out there originally created by GM that within the GM family of brands, Oldsmobiles were known to be more expensive and better engineered than Pontiacs. And the last factor, there are probably buyers out there that want something different to own and show other than a Chevelle SS or a Pontiac GTO and willing to pay more to own something less seen on the show field. That’s my take on all of this. Today's market is really wierd, other than perception I still can't figure out why a Hemi Cuda Convertible goes for so much more money than a '69 T/A Convertible?

Interesting GTO and thanks for the input. I know the GTO was rated at 360 horses but the G.P. engine of the same exact kind was rated at 370! I believe you're right. It's just perception but I think that leaves lots of upside for my '70 455 w/ram air 4spd convertible as investors finds out about these disparities (as well as leaving more upside for the hardtops - there is alot of room there!)

I agree the GTO 455 really was the same as the 370 HP engine used in the larger cars. Make no mistake though: The '70 Olds W-30, made much much more than 370 HP ( I've read 410-420 ), and would soundly out mph a ( '70 ) 455 GTO in the 1/4 mile, especially the manual trans ones with the wilder cam. The 370 HP is just the usual fudging of 10 lbs/hp limit GM put on their non-Chevrolet intermediates.

Buick's "360 HP" Stage-1 was another in that category. Funny reading the more naive testers stating that the somewhat underwhelming 360 HP number is offset by the 500 lb/ft of torque@2800. Baloney. No way will 360 ( SAE gross ) HP power a heavy Buick GS through the quarter at 103 MPH, regardless of the torque reading. It may have actually made 360 HP @ 4600, but it was not the peak. That's another 425 HP monster.

TR - wasn't the '70 Pontiac 455 actually the 400 HP range as well?

Check this out! Think it will actually move for this price?

http://web.mac.com/drewberlin/iWeb/7...O/Welcome.html

Great thread!

As others have stated, one cannot compare a W30 442 to a 455"HO" GTO. A more fair comparison is the RA IV GTO to the W30 442. Both were the top perf option in their respective division, as were the LS6 Chevelle and the Stage 1 Gran Sport.

As has been discussed many times in the past, it's quite a shame that Pontiac didn't choose to build a high-compression RP 455 for 1970, or better yet a RA V 455 or even 400.

A 308/320 cammed RA IV or RA V style 455 would have RIPPED - given some forged rods of course!

I would imagine that their hands were tied by the same GM corporate "gods" who let the (underrated) 450 horse LS6 Chevelles be produced, depsite the 10 lb/HP rule.

No, not really. It was a station wagon engine that put out what it was rated at. 95-96 MPH in the quarter in a GTO; Not exactly a slug, but well behind the 102-103 MPH ( slowest original test I saw was 100.22 mph ) of the W-30 Olds.

Forgot to mention. Guy who worked with my father in the early 70's had a beautiful orange '70 442 W-30 4-speed. Other than tuning tricks, the engine was stock, but he did run full-length headers. We went to National Speedway in Islip NY once and I was surprised how quiet the car was. I don't remember what his ET's were but I do remember him saying his speed was 107 MPH. He did bolt on slicks with plain black steel wheels ( which I though were ugly as hell on such a nice car ) but given that speed, with good traction, a 12 second car probably. It's really that car that gave me the muscle car bug, but I didn't become a Pontiac man till 10 years later.

Another theory as to why the W-30 may sell for more in todays market is the cost of restoration. I'm not certain of this, however it may cost more to restore a '70 W-30 442 than a '70 455 GTO. There are probably fewer repo parts out there for 442s than GTOs. When was the last time you went to a swap meet and ran across an Olds W-30 aluminum intake, "F" code heads, "W/Z" code exhaust manifolds, OAI air cleaner, W-25 air induction fiberglass hood, "OW" code Turbo 400 transmission, Hurst dual gate shifter, rally pac guage cluster and all the other goodies that make up a W-30? Very rarely do I attend a swap meet and find an Olds vendor, but I can find at least one vendor selling Pontiac parts.

Great information gentlement. I echo Lloyd ... great thread.

I thought the '70 GTO 455 did a 101 mph 1/4 in the original magazine testing. Does anyone have the article that compared the 455 ram air with the ram air 3? What were the times? What were the original tested times with the ram air 4? Which articles are you referring to?

Thanks again. I have the opportunity to buy a '71 W-30 convertible 4spd with a/c for about 35K - 40K ... I guess I should jump at it if it's still available. I'm going to call my old home town and see if it's still there since when I saw it last it was MINT.

'70 W30 Olds had better flowing cyl heads than std Pontiac D-ports, about 25 cfm better on the intake at 5.00 lift measured at 28".
Negative... heavier rotating mass for the Olds.

Want to compare the '70 GTO 455 to something comprable, compare it to the standard '70 442 455 engine.

I'm not sure it's the exact article you had in mind, but I have a reprint of an April '70 article testing/comparing 70 GTOs. One is a 455 Auto-trans A/C car and is equipped with hood ram air. The other is a fairly well optioned ( but no A/C ) RamAir 3 4-speed car.

Due to traction/launching issues the 2 cars were not that different in ET: 14.6 vs 14.76 in favor of the 400 RA3. The 455 car's trap speed was just a few hairs under 96, the 400's car just a thin hair under 100. Some was weight related, but I doubt 4 miles an hour's worth.

So is the 70 W30 455 a round port engine and if so you should put it next to a 455 Super duty at over 10:1 compression. Otherwise the W30 has the compression advantage over the SD or HO engine due to the drop in 1971. No round port Pontiac 455 in 1970 and there was is 71 but at a lower compression. here is some stock times to mull over:


1970 (W-30) 455/370: 0-60 in 5.7 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.2 sec @ 100mph 442

1970 400/366 Ram Air III: 0-60 in 6.0 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec @ 98mph.GTO

1971 455/335 (HO): 0-60 in 5.9 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.9 sec @ 103 mph. firebird

1970 400/370 (RA IV): 0-60 in 5.6 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.9 sec @ 102 mph. firebird


It has only 2 MPH over the little 400 in a GTO and is slower than the lower compression 71 455 HO. The 70 400 in the F body would be the same or very similar performance. I bet a 1970 455 D port would do just fine against the Old's 455 but the olds guy's are weird about their W30. My wife's uncle told me he had a 70 W30 that was almost 600 horse on regular pump gas and would do 11 seconds flat without a posi....man it was hard to keep a straight face. Especially when he told me he had his buddy time it on his wrist watch and guessed how long a 1/4 mile was...lol

I think in order to make a valid comparison of the 455 Buick, Olds, and Pontiacs high performance engines, you would have to compare 1971-72 engines rather than just looking at the 1970 engine line up. Pontiac chose the Ram Air IV 400 engine to be its top high performance engine in 1970, while Olds and Buick used their 455 motors as their performance flagships. However, in 1971 and 1972 all three auto makers chose a low compression version of their 455 engines to be their top performance motors.

The Buick Stage 1, the Olds W-30, and the Pontiac 455 HO all performed at similar levels on regular fuel in both 1971 and 1972. When all three manufacturers had to work within the same parameters, these engines were very close in terms of power.

As far as current value, you'd have to compare the RA IV to the W-30 in 1970 and then I think their pricing would be very similar. As far as '71 and '72 goes, I think you'll find that the 455 HO, Stage I, and W-30 are also priced in the samel general range in today's musclecar market.

Jim

I agree. Better comparison. I never did see a what a non-Stage1 '70 Buick GS ran stock ( I've seen them run real fast today ), but it would be nice to compare to the Stage-1 too.

It's too bad Chevy grabbed all the good HP numbers while BOP's got "politically correct" ones...I mean... if it was all over in a year anyway, why not let them go out with a bang? I share Lloyds sentiment in wishing Pontiac had made a "RamAir IV 455".

Pete McCarthy's books states that Pontiac was working on a high compression version of the 455 with RA V heads for the '71 Trans Am before GM pulled the plug on all high compression motors. That might have made the Trans Am the king of the hill if Pontiac could have pulled it off.

Jim

70 W-30 prices vs 70 455HO vs 70 RAIV vs 71 455 HO
 

Here is a link to recent W-30 thru Mecum:

http://www.mecumauction.com/searchre...e%20442%201970

The Baby Blue 70 W-30 4-speed Bench seat with poverty caps went for 105K!
The other Green 70 W-30 Auto went for 60K?

The Blue/White 70 W-30 vert went for 175K recently, and the red HT LS-6 w/ 26 miles went for 330K.! Go Figure...

If you look at the W-30 convertible and the RA-4 Judge convertible in 1970 the Judge will be more money. Would like to trade a 1970 W-30 or a 1972 W-30 convertible for a Judge convertible. Looking to buy 1971 W-30 convertible.

VERY well said, as always, Jim!

Like Jim, I'd have to surmise that the performance differences between the '71-'72 455HO LeMans/GTO, W-30 Olds and Stage 1 Gran Sports were VERY slight. However, let's not forget that one could still order a LS-6 Chevelle in 1971. And although the CR was dropped from 11.0:1 in 1970 down to 9.0:1 in 1971, it was still rated @ 425 gross HP. I suppose that in 1971 the GM performance leader HAD to be the 1971 SS454 LS-6 Chevelle.

I can't recall what the GROSS HP ratings were for the 1971 W-30's and Stage 1's, nor what the NET HP ratings were for the 1972 W30's. However, the 1972 455HO (@ 300 NET) was rated WELL above the '72 Buick Stage 1 and '72 LS-5 Chevelles, which both had NET HP ratings of 270, IIRC.:D

Of course, Pontiac trumped EVERYONE - other GM's as well as Ford and Chrysler - with the awesome 455SD.:D :D :D It's too bad the 455SD was restricted to Firebird usage.:(

Look at these recent track times for those low comp smog 71 455 HO cars. The mighty 400 RA II and IV's keeps getting more impressive too! In front of the mighty hemi. Even the 326 Lemans beats the W-30 who didn't have a good run.

Factory Stock ET's November 2006

1. Jim Spetzman 1969 Dodge Super Bee 440 12.12@112 mph
2. Bruno Beltrane 1969 Pontiac GTO 400 RAIV 12.28@115 mph
3. Peter Germani 1971 Pontiac GTO 455HO 12.30@112 mph
4. Jim Mino 1968 Pontiac Firebird 400 RAII 12.50@114 mph
5. Chuck Lombardi 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle 396 12.51@111 mph
6. Steve Polimeni 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS6 12.67@110 mph
7. Glen Annarumma 1971 Pontiac Trans Am 455HO 12.95@107 mph
8. Larry Wittig 1967 Plymouth GTX 426 Hemi 12.97@111 mph
9. Steve Vanderwall 1969 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 12.97@106 mph
10. George Buttner 1968 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 13.03@100 mph (Gonzo's car)
11. Dan Korb 1972 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 13.21@103 mph
12. Chris Giardina 1969 Dodge Charger 440 13.55@103 mph
13. John Payne 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 tripower 13.87@103 mph
14. Bob Klemann 1967 Ford Fairlane GT 427 13.93@103 mph
15. Dom Scorziello 1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS5 13.93@101 mph
16. John Beilano 1969 Ford Mustang 351 13.97@100 mph
17. Jeff Hargrove 1970 Ford Mustang 428 13.99@96 mph
18. Charles Lombardi 1963 Chevrolet Impala 409 14.01@100 mph
19. Ronald Knight 1970 Plymouth GTX 440 14.08@102 mph
20. Hal Oaks 1967 Chevrolet Belair 327 14.05@96 mph
21. John Freed 1970 Dodge Super Bee 383 14.14@96 mph
22. Ty Tacone 1970 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 14.15@97 mph
23. Bill Gonzo 1968 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 14.17@100 mph
24. John Sweeney 1967 Pontiac Bonneville 428 14.17@97 mph
25. Jeff Ingalls* 1969 Dodge Charger 440 14.32@96 mph
26. Mark Diplato 1972 Chevrolet Corvette 350 14.50@96 mph
27. Frank Pisani 1970 Ford Mustang 351 14.52@94 mph
28. Joe Disanto 1967 Pontiac Tempest 350 14.58@99 mph
29. Evan Stern 1966 Pontiac Lemans 326 14.81@94 mph
30. John Weintraub? 1969 Plymouth Road Runner 383 14.93@97 mph
31. Robert Hill 1969 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 15.07@89 mph
32. Vince Lyons 1968 Mustang (factory racer) 15.80@82 mph (tribute run)
33 Mike Nasi 1970 Plymouth Road Runner? 383 16.34@85 mph
__________________

Everyone knows an Indian can run like the wind. :D :D

Not to take away from the 442 as it's an awesome car for sure but I love my Pontiac's more.

Judge 272, are those times for F.A.S.T.? If so, remember you can stroke your motor for more cubes I think and use some weight savings tricks, but nice job and great time for that 71 GTo with the 455, a truly underrated engine, and my 2nd favorite Goat.:eek:

the difference between the pontiac 360 hp and 370 hp 70 455 was the heads,#15's had small valves and pressed studs,#64's had big valves and screw in studs,the valve size alone is more hp.Plus the gto version you could get the 068 cam with a manual trans,again more power over the 360 hp version.Plus all the gto /gp 370 version came with 4 bolt main caps.I bought my 70 455 4 speed bone stock.I tried it at the track a few times and had someone mention to recurve the dist.He helped me do it at that time,(20 years ago)and i remember taking the original advance springs out,they had so much tension,i had to use pliers and pull hard to get them off.(i still have the originals)He told me he couldnt see how the thing would ever total advance.It knocked a few TENTHS just redoing the dist.,something they should have done better at the factory.Ran mid 13's pretty well stock.

re: 68addict
 

Not the same as FAST. Those were the "factory stock" numbers which allow some "minor" but it does have rules as follows:

"Both classes the cars have to look exactly stock, with NO external aftermarket parts.No tractions bars, stock wheels and tires and sizes.

The Factory Stock class are cars with minimal engine work done, factory camshafts, idling in gear at 900 rpm,stock unmodified intakes , exhaust, carbs ..........your typical car cruise participant with ET's from 12.00 - 16.00 seconds

The FAST class are cars with no aftermarket external parts showing, BUT strokers are allowed, lightweight rods and pistons, ANY internal engine modifications are allowed. ET's range from 13.00 to 10.50
================================================== ===

There is NOTHING to win, NO Money, NO points....NOTHING, except a plaque that shows you participated. This is for Fun not prestige."

Rules here:

http://forums.factorystockmusclecars...rm/f/352100271

But, maybe the rules not as strict as Pure Stock Drags. But, I think the RA IV car competes in both races, and does well, very well. Dan Jensen 71 T-37 455 HO runs a consistent 12.5 too.

Great information guys. I still believe that prices of the W-30 have far surpassed the RA4 for the most part. There is a guy selling a green RA4 right now with 4spd for much less than 100K. Have you seen it? It was at Norwalk and I believe it was asking 75K with no takers. Am I wrong on the price? I belive it's Green with Saddle interior (non-Judge.)

Oh well ... I'm "stuck" with my '70 455 and I love it!

I've seen 3 455 '70 Convertibles for sale on the internet. One is Yellow with brown interior (auto - 75K), one is gold (auto - 197K), and the other is burgandy (auto with ram air induction - 250K) Not bad prices. I'm interested to see how the other Ram Air induction car does - maybe I'll sell mine and buy a '68 4spd convert and a 67 4spd GP Convert. with money to spare. My thought it that I cannot get kind of money for my car though.

The '70 GTO 455 engine was rated 360 HP, no matter TH400 or 4-speed equipped, Ram Air or no. All had cast# 64 big valve heads. The exact same engine was rated 370 HP in the GP, once again with the 64 casting heads. #15 casting heads were full size only, small valve standard engine rated 360 HP. The 370 HP engine was available on fullsize cars as well, with #64 heads, etc.

Is the #64 head considered a performance head or would a 6X be better ?

The #64 cylinder head is a great D-port head, on a 455 or larger engine. 87CC chambers, 2.11/1.77 valves and screw-in studs were all standard fare. Great setup for a pump gas 455+ engine.

Two downsides - it's a farely uncommon and sought-after casting so be prepared to pay for a pair.
The only other issue is that there is a boss "missing" from that casting (and all pre-1971 castings) which allows the use of '71 and later alternator and accessory brackets and pulleys. One can run the later accessory setup without that boss - which has a threaded hole for the alternator thru-bolt, but this destabilzes the accessory mountings and can cause belt flipping or throwing.

70ra455: The prices are crazy, and I agree that a Baby Blue benchseat poverty capped 70 W-30 HT can get 105K is awfully tall money! The Green 4 sp 70 RA IV was for sale at the GTOAA Nationals in July, and can't get a sale at 88K? It is fully restored numbers matching engine, nicely optioned except for color? Here are some pictures I took of that car.

The same is true for 71-72 GTO 4-speed 455 HO cars, and they would be lucky to break 50K.

Thanks Lloyd, much appreciated. :D

IMO, it's all about having the car "in front of" the right buyer at the right time. If that RA IV car is everything it's supposed to be, it should bring near $100K or even more, even in the fall/winter season. Just gotta fine the right buyer.

I paid $52K for my Sundance GTO (455HO / M22, w/ A/C) in May of this year, and was offered $60K before I even had the car in my possession. I believe the "right" buyer would pay $70K-$75K for it right now, and next spring even more.

Thanks Judge 273, now those numbers are even more impressive!!! BTW I love this thread.

Five years ago I sold my 100% numbers matching '70 442 W-30 auto Sebring Yellow on Black for $7500.00.

a few misc points/ramblings.

- the W-30 455 is NOT a round port motor. The only round port Olds was I believe the W-43 455 dual overhead cam that never made it to production. I guess you can compare that to the RA V, although RA V pieces/motors are out there. I think there is only 1 or 2 W-43 motors out there and they are in museums.

- In the list that Mike (Judge273) posted, the 69 W-30, those cars are PIGS and you can't compare that to ANY Pontiac/Buick/AMC etc. It's apples and oranges in the truest sense. The 68 and 69 W-30 used a COMPLETELY different 400 Olds motor than the 66-67 W-30 400 and obviously the 70-72 455 W-30. The 68 and 69 W-30 cars are horrible for performance. Those small bore 400 were an attempt at emissions as Olds sunk their engineering into the W-31 350 in 68 (aka 68 Ram Rod). Once they saw how phenominal those cars were from a performance standpoint, they started marketing the W-31 package in 69 more. And the same with 70. (I have a 69 W-31 and possibly the only powder blue car out there. I'm also building a 70 W-31 that will be a lot more towards the NHRA limits for Factory/Pure Stock so I can go pick on some big blocks :-)))) eventually I'll do a Poncho for Pure Stock or FAST)

Mike, great info and times you posted. I get the feeling you REALLY want to take one of your cars to the Factory Stock or Pure Stock race. If you are interested, there is a FAST/Factory Stock race in Martin, MI in June. I have a truck and trailer and my W-31 won't be ready for Martin. Stanton, hopefully thats a different story. You'll probably see Dan in Martin too. Let me know and we can work out the details. I'm also trying to convince a friend to bring out his 62 GP 389 tri-power auto car.

Ive always thought that was screwy the way they rated them.The gto engine had the same 360 rating as the #15 headed 455 in a bonneville,ect.And yes,the gp had the same engine as the gto but rated at 370....for what reason??????Obviously to boost power over the standard 360 hp ,70 455(#15 head),they made the better #64 head but kept the same 360 rating as the standard 455 .They either had their reasons or somebody wasnt payin attention.

Interesting, since my friend I got my 70 GTO from also has a 70 455 HO 4 speed GTO and a 70 442 W30 4 speed vert. He paid $6k for the GTO a while back, and somewhere around $10k for the Olds. Havent talked to him in almost 10 years, wonder if he still has them.

Also the price of a car is completely dependent on what someone is willing and able to pay for it. If some of us had a few billion layin around like Gates how much would you pay for a nice RA IV car? Leaves us poor guys out of it..

Makes me sick just to tell you this because now I wish I still had these cars. Back in 1995 I sold my very nice 75K orig mile '70 W-30 442 (auto) for $12,500 (quite a bit back then). When I was in the process of selling, I actually had two collectors beating down my door just to buy the car. In 1999, I sold my 83k orig mile '70 RA IV GTO (4spd) for $15,000 (still quite a bit back then). I had a lot of "tire kickers", but really nobody desparately wanting the car.

Wasn't that RA IV GTO a triple black car as well, John?:eek: :eek: :eek:

I still wish I had gotten a chance to drive it, or at least ride in it, LOL!:(

These old "I used to have these cars" are killing me. It's conjuring up memories - very recent - of two that I sold because I wasn't driving them and figured it was time to let go.

A MINT 1970 1/2 Camaro Z/28 with 4spd. Gorgeous Classic Copper with white stripe with under 60K original miles. The only one I've seen with the little rubber rear bumper protectors still on it. Not a reproduced part. Sold either 3 or 4 summers ago for $18,500 when I thought it should get $21K but the Copper color turned off too many people.

A 1965 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible with 4spd 421 tripower HO and a/c, pw, posi, etc. I've only seen 3 other Bonnies with that drivetrain and this is the only one with a/c that I've seen. Nightwatch Blue over Blue with White top. A # 2.5 condition car and for less than 10K a solid #2 local show car. I got 32K for it 3 summers ago (2.5 years.)

But the good news is that I've still got my '70 GTO Convertible!

Oldsmobile 442's were marketed as the executive hot rod. Most were loaded with A/C and 3:23 gearing. So the E/T times of the day for the most part dont show to well. Mine is a 1970 W-30, 4 speed, 391 W27, no PS or PB. I have taken it down the track twice. 13.89 and 13.42. Thats on polyglas without trying to tear the hell out of it. I havent had the Judge convt finished long enough to ring it out. My ragtop is a 391, no power steering or brake car either so it should be an interesting comparison.

I think the same reason the W-30's have increased in price are same reason the Judges have. Both were undervalued and neat looking cars that people didnt really know about. Camaro's and chevelles dont have surfboard decklid spoilers and ram air hoods in your face. Of course I am biased....

Very, VERY nice yellow W30.

Gotta love the W27 aluminum diff option! Doctor Oldsmobile was TOO COOL!:cool:

I really haven't owned any rare or super hi-po machines until very recently. It's cool hearing stories from those who have.

About that Z28 - nothing sounds quite like a high-compression solid-lifter small block!

I will be looking to sell my O.O. 1970 Judge conv 4speed next spring , currently leaving for nut and bolt concourse restoration, we will see what it does in price. btw I've owned quite a few 1970 gto 455, 4 speed conv's and hardtops as well as a ram air iv, 4 speed car, and a properly tuned 455 is a beast on the street.

So, I suppose that $600 for a true NOS Judge front spoiler wouldn't be out of line.
Yes- I have one (but it's not technically for sale)...

Phil- gotta get together sometime soon. Have a new acquisition that I hope will eventually shed some light on the D-port vs round-port 455 HO debate.

Theres a # matching 73 SD455 formula firebird on ebay right now i'd love to have.....$65,000 right now.

my three or four cents on this thread:

back in the early 80's i owned several of the models discussed, they were all unmessed with original cars with bone stock engines and automatic drivetrains (all sold at prices i would rather forget):

1972 455 (non HO) GTO - good low rpm pull but lousy horsepower, not much better than the later EGR-smogger engines.

1970 GTO 455 - nice torque but weak in the upper half of the RPM range, no quicker than a regular 350hp GTO of same year and driveline but a sweet cruiser with nice midrange

1970 442 W-30 - very sweet engine, great pull from 70-100 but not as strong top end as like say a good ram air 3, gotta love those hood scoops !!! they say size doesn't matter but the GTO hood looks a little plain and A cuppish next to those DD's

1970 GS stage 1 - mine and others i rode in back then honestly did not feel any stronger than the W-30, still a nice sounding and feeling engine if you can get past the grandma looks of the car (i couldn't).

i think the trick to the high end powered cars was super tuning,the stock tuning, exhaust etc did not let the better internals translate into much better installed performance, all these types of high end cars (LS6's included) had many period road tests (disregarding obvious ringer cars) with the same or worse trap speeds than their base engine counterparts. as an example a freind of mine special ordered a 69 hemi charger with an automatic and it only ran in the mid 90's brand new at the local track, he got tail-lighted by cars that had HP ratings and MSRP's that started with 2's!! he sold it pretty darn quick:doh: .

a problem area for all the gm 455's was that their crank-rods-oiling etc were not up to the better top end capabilities, lot's of poncho, olds and especially buick 455's ended up as boat anchors or feed stock for toyotas.

i don't want to sound like i am dumping on these cars, they were all fun, powerful mid-range beasts that for the average non racer driver felt much quicker than the 400ish cid engines of the 60's due to that fat torque curve. i had a '02 Z06 a few years ago and it would badly trailer any of these stock muscle cars but on the street it felt slower unless you beat it brutally. that was the beauty of cubes: instant on demand thrust

Paul ... NOOOOOO! Oh well I hope you make a killing on it. I wish you would have taken my bet that you were selling. I knew it. Oh well. I could have won a bundle.

Tom ... I'll give you a call and I hope your feeling better. I've been laid up on crutches with a swollen left foot for the past 4 days (hence my many posts!)

Later.