Hidden headlights - new electric conversion!
 

I did the electric motor conversion for GTO hidden headlights about a year ago. I was never really pleased with the performance, for several reasons:
· The headlights were driven by a single motor in the center of the bumper, connected to a long single rod. Long motion path from motor to headlight door. The headlight motion was very springy, and one door was always closed tighter than the other. Very finicky to adjust.
· The motor was not current limited. Since the doors closed at different rates/times, it required a good deal of force to get BOTH doors fully closed. I broke the motor bushings twice.
· The motor required the operator to hold the switch closed in one direction or the other until the doors were fully open/closed. (How long should I hold it?)
· There was no indicator to be sure the doors were fully open or closed, or even which state they were in.

I really wanted two-motor operation, like what is on my son’s 91 T/A. I got the two hidden headlight motors and the control box off a junk T/A and fitted them into my 68 GTO as you see here.

Operation is beautiful! Solid, predictable motion, up and down. Current-limited stops assures complete opening with no overtorqueing of the motor. Simple two-position switch with lighted “on” position for hands-off operation and visual indicator. Everhthing I wanted in the setup.

Here's a video of the test of the door prototype. I have since changed the mounting bracket from lexan to steel.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...091&pr=goog-sl

Some pics posted below of the parts used and the mounting.

I’d be glad to share details with anyone interested in this conversion.

Regards,
Bob Trimpe

Very cool setup Bob! Your right about the length of the rod, thats the draw back with the Crysler setup, alot of motion is lost to distant. The plastic gears don't help either.If the control box on your setup runs the motors why are you still useing a toggle switch, can't you run a feed from the headlight switch ? awesome job!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never thought of that. It would be simple. I'll do it!

Stay tuned for revb ...

If it will work that way, I would probably be interested in getting rid of my chrysler setup. Was there much hardware to fabricate up or is it mainly stuff from the pontiac ?

What? You don't like the original vacuum set up? ... just kidding ... Great job! :beerchug:

All parts are from either the T/A or the GTO, except I made two 4"x8" brackets. You see one in the picture. Its a 1/8" steel plate with holes drilled in it.

The earlier 3rd gen motors don't work. The years that will work are (I think) 87-92 Firebirds and the Fieros. If you go scavenging the T/A, you'll need a LH and a RH motor, their mounting bolts and folded clip nuts, the control box and its mounting bracket. It's mounted on the firewall just left of center.

The real invention was in figuring out how and where to mount the motors. I spent most of a Saturday just deciding on location and orientation.

Couple of other tricks that I did to get it to be solid and dependable.

Bob when is the conversion to a 68 Bird coming?
Ill donate a spare bumper so you can work on that next

Cammer, I might just take you up on that. The big hangup is I don't have the will to take my bird apart to start on it. It's all on paper ...

Bob

I was looking into getting this kit from Detroit Speed and modifying it to work on my '69 GTO. They told me it would work but I would have to do a little fab work. Here's the link.
http://detroitspeed.com/productpages...t_kit_prod.htm

The Camaro doors open/close horizontally, so there's no lifting force needed. The GTO doors close UPWARD; plus, they weigh about 5 times as much as the Camaro door. Be sure their motors have enough lifting force to do the job. Looks like a similar approach, though.

Bob

i talked to this guy at the GM nationals this past summer.

http://www.retro-electro.net/home.html


currently he only lists conversions for camodes, but, it was a pretty hot lick set-up, not cheap though, not by any means.

asked about 68/69 goats and his eyes lit up, said he was working on a conversion and to check back at the end of the year.

also said they wouldnt be as $$$ as the chevy ones due to needing only one motor.

I had a one-motor setup, and its performance (or lack of) is why I worked up the two-motor deal. Believe me, two motors is THE WAY to go.

OK I need pics of the other side please that is too cool!!

I'va already put the grilles back in, so you can't see the mounting. But I can do a video of operation, if that's what you're looking for ...

Bob the next time youre in town the bumpers yours.
I would love to see you do that conversion on a 67-8
bird.
Ive been playing with HIDs on my 97 and its even more fun
with popups vs hideaways.

Ill take video of both sides if its not any trouble

I'll make one tonight. You able to view the one above with no trouble?

ya no problem

Here's a video showing both lights:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...67649437186754

One is quicker than the other because the motor has new bushings in it. The slower one will be rebuilt when the bushings arrive. In any case, both doors are solidly open or shut once the movement is complete.

The oirignal video showing one side, with the grill out, is at top of this thread.


Bob Trimpe

C'mon guys, you're missing the point -- what good is having hideaways if you don't let the car wink at people! I've got a leak somewhere in the system that doesn't let the vac reserve build up so if I shut the car off too quick the doors don't finish closing -- always a great conversation starter from the new guys passing my car in the parkinglot when they find out the system runs on engine vacuum!

Where is the control box on the Fiero?

Sorry, don't know. On the TA it was on the firewall. You can see it in picture 1 on the left. Its about 5-6" square, and slides into a sleeve-type bracket.

BTW, I saw one on ebay, minus connectors, for about $40.

Bob

That's sweet! I'd like to do hidden headlights on my LeMans some day. Good to know there's electric motor options!

All this talk...... no price. How much? Money burning holes in pockets....

I'm not selling anything. I'll be glad to tell you how I did it.

Bob

Bob, glad to see that the conversion can be accomplished with electric. I was thinking of using spare vacume parts from a 1970 mark 3 lincoln, but your design appears to be a pleasure. Thanks for sharing. Nick

The final touches!
 

I finally finished up the headlight conversion.

• Rebuilt the one motor to take the slop out
• Added a wire that senses when the headlights are on or off, to automatically open/shut the doors
• Deleted the dash switch for manual operation
• Cleaned up the wiring at the firewall and harness to the doors

Now the setup snaps open and closed - no slop. Operation is transparent to the driver - pull the headlight switch, doors open.

I am very pleased!

Regards,
Bob Trimpe

Bob, thanks for sharing the info, I'm considering doing this coversion. Is it still working well for you. Any additional suggestions/info you have to offer?

I watched your videos and it seems to work well, but I noticed something in the first video that does not seem to match what is in the text of your post.

The title of the video is "1968 GTO pneumatically-operated headlights are configured to operate using two headlight motors from 1996 Pontiac Trans Am."

The text of the post appears to indicate parts from an 87-92 Firebird.

What year Firebird are your conversion parts from?

They are from a 1991 T/A. Not sure where the title came from - its been a while since I posted it. Probably my typo.

The project has been solid ever since. I had one instance where one side got "over-center" and one was going up when the other went down! I put a bumper in to limit door travel in either direction.

Several people have remarked on the crisp action of my hideaways, and asked how I tweaked the pneumatics to get it that way. I show them the motors and they are impressed.

Thank you for posting this project. I'm going to be facing this situation in the next year and this is great info.

Ames has been talking about a complete electirc hideaway conversion but they can't seem to get it done. I call every once in a while to keep the fire going. The more calls they get requesting this set up, the more motivated I'm sure they'll become.. hint hint.

1 800 421 2637

I,too have done an electric conversion on my hide-aways using motors and brackets from a fiero(I have the prototype work done,have'nt finished it yet as I'm working on other aspects of the car right now)I used the actual housings that the motors mounted to in the Fiero,made some small brackets(arms)to connect the motors to the GTO headlight brackets.At one point,I offered to Ames(twice)diagrams,notes and pictures of the work I completed for perhaps a minimal store credit(since I have and will be spending thousands),but no response.BTW,A big thank you to fyrebird 68 for the help,pictures,idea,etc.

Paint Guy, do the Fiero Motors have advantages over the 87/92 Firebird motors, and if so, what are they?

Do the Fiero Motors have "built in limiters" or do you need to use a seperate module with them?

The boneyard guy told me the fiero and t/a motors are the same(i don't know for sure)The electrics(module,relays,harness)I got out of a bird,have only hooked it up to the extent that I've run the motors off a battery to open and close the headlights,they stop because I removed the voltage,but i'm going to install the module because I've been told that when it senses resistance(the motor stopping)it cut the voltage to the motors.(can you tell I'm not an electrical whiz?)I'm also going to install on the motor brackets themselves a stop along the lines of a hood stop/adjustment,so that I can align the doors perfectly when they are closed.(I never liked the looks of hide-away doors that were not perfectly aligned)Hope this helps.

There are two"generations" of GM headlight door motors in the 82-92 era, including Fiero and Friebird. The later ones (abouty 1989 up) are a more robust design and use a separate controller for current regulation. The big problem I had with my first design using a Le Baron motor was the motor overdrove the doors, causing lots of stress on the mechanics.

If you're scrounging at the boneyard, be sure to get both motors, the controller on the firewall and the bolts that held the motors to the doors.

fyrebird68,the motors I have are out of a fiero,module out of a bird(years unknown on either)how can I tell if they're compatable?thanks in advance for your help.

I went to a local junkyard and bought parts from a 90 Firebird today. Got the module, some wiring and the right side headlight motor (the left side motor was missing) The yard said that 87 to 92 use the same motor.

I got the plugs for the motors and the plugs for the module but had to cut the wiring. A lot of wires on the module. I have to assume(hope) that not all are needed for this application.

Bob, can you please supply info on how to wire the module?

I have not played with the motor yet. It has a 2 wire plug. I assume that it grounds through the mounts and that you apply power to one wire to go up and the other to go down. Is this correct?

Anyone have a left side HL motor they want to sell?

Another question.

You said you rebuilt one of the motors. Where did you get parts for the rebuild and is it difficult to rebuild? Any tip/tricks you would be willing to share?

Gen I and Gen II motors are not compatible or interchangeable. They physically look different. Check the pic at the beginning of this thread for a pic of a gen II motor. (The gen I motors are bigger, I believe.)

The Gen II system is also a hot swap for the Fiero crowd (I have a Fiero as well.)

There are a multitude of rebuild kits an ebay for cheap. They consist of three nylon cylinders a little bigger than an eraser. Take the motor gearbox apart and you'll find they sit in three little niches 120 deg. apart. They're like overload clutches - they self-destruct if there's a jam, rather than strip the gear.

If the gear itself is shot in your motor, I have seen rebuild kits that sell an aluminum replacement gear. Expensive.

While you're in there, clean the rotor with an eraser. I use a track eraser that the model railroaders use to clean track. Looks like an eraser but a LITTLE more abrasive. Blow the dust out from the brushes as well.

Actually, they're polarity-reversed by the controller. I'll dig out the drawings I did and scan them for you.

I tested the motor I have and it seems good. Smooth and quiet in both directions.

I fabricated some mounts and am ready to do the install except I still don't have a left side motor. I purchased one on e-bay and should have it in a few days.

My mount design is much different than Bob's. I think Bob's design would have been easier to make, but I didn't have any plate steel in my scrape pile so I made them from what I had. Mine is primarily made out of angle iron and some nuts and washers that I welded together. My design involves a good bit of cutting/welding, but it seems like the brackets will be effective. Since I don't know how to wire the module, I have not run it under power, but I have tested it by turning the knob on top of the motor and it looks like it should work well.

Bob (or anyone else) I would greatly appreciate it if you could post the wiring info ASAP.

Thanks, Joel

Joel, I PMed you a week or so ago. If you send me your email address, I'll send you a PDF file of the schematic.

Send to fyrebird68@hotmail.com

Bob

Ironically, this week I had a headlight motor go bad in my 86 Fiero, so I got a refresher course in motor compatibility.

The motors in Fieros (and I believe Firebirds) switched from gen I design to gen II design in 1987. Easiest way to tell them apart is the gen I motors have a larger knob with fins on it. The gen II motor knob is smaller.

Internally, they're a lot different. The gen I motor has internal limit switches to stop the motor drive once the door is open or closed. They can be finicky. Gen I motors do not use a controller board, but use three relays to manage voltage to the motors.

Gen II motor stops when the controller board senses a current increase due to a stalled motor. IMHO it's a better design. As soon as I locate another gen II motor setup, I'll be converting the Fiero.

BOB, THANKS FOR ALL THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE PROVIDED!!!!!

I have been extremely busy at work, but I finally got my conversion installed.

I spent a lot of time fabricating brackets, getting things aligned properly, etc, but it seems to work GREAT!

Bob sent me a wiring diagram for the module and based upon the diagram, this is how I wired mine.

Black wire to ground.

The Yellow wire and Brown wire connect together and then connect to +12V with headlights on.

2 Orange wires - each gets a seperate 15 Amp fuse and then connects to full time +12V
(or to ignition or accessory circuit if you only want it to work with key)

Right HL Motor wires are Gray and Dark Green

Left HL Motor wires are Gray/Black and Dark Green/White

This wiring works on my system which is from a 91 Firebird and I would GUESS that the wiring is the same on all Firebirds from 87 through 92.

The headlight doors go up or down very fast, probably about a second, maybe less.

Bob said he is using PVC pipe as a bushing for the "linkage" that goes between the motor and the headlight door. I did not have PVC pipe available, but had some 1/2" PEX Pipe laying around so I used it. I slit it down the side and was able to slide it over the "linkage" (it is much more pliable than PVC) then held it in place with some cable ties. So far the PEX seems to be working well, but IT only has few cycles on it so I don't know how durable it is.

Bob found this out the hard way also
Have a couple of 87 GTs and when a friend bought an 86 that needed both headlights he came begging.
All wiring/relays and motors are different.
I havent checked yet to see if the 91 Bird that my neighbor has is same motors as my 87 P body.I think Regattas are also same.

Thank you very much for the info fyrebird I appreciate it. Only one question about the operation. Were you able to connect it to the stock light switch or did you still have to use the toggle switch?

I eliminated the toggle switch when I added the wire coming from the common side of the dimmer switch.

Too much great info here, this thread needs to be a sticky in this tech section.

Any mods out there?

I have purchased a set of headlight motors from a mazda miata, has anyone tinkered with these types of motors and tried them on a goat?

I second that. Way to go Bob!