fresh meat
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...QQcmdZViewItem

Call in the wolves.

As far as I'm concerned, how can one even bid on this car with no proof until after winning the auction? And, how does one clone this car?

This seller is perhaps a bit optimistic in his belief that this is the only black 70 Judge.

His answer to a question gave me a chuckle. He was asked for a copy of the PHS, His answer was: "WILL NOT RELEASE VIN OR PHS EXCEPT TO WINNING BIDDER THIS CAR WILL NOT BE CLONED."

I am amused by owners who fear their car will be "cloned" or faked if the VIN is discovered by some kind of "thief in the night." The reality is that anyone would be a fool to try to copy a car that is known to exist. Someone looking to fake a car would look for a VIN that was known to have been scrapped, or buy the plates from a scrapped car. This is even more true for the Pontiacs because of the availability of the factory invoice. We are truly fortunate to have this resource, but it does have the unfortunate side effect of giving value to certain VIN tags.

We have all heard the stories about 318 Challengers and Cudas being cloned or faked into hemi cars. The perpetrator has a VIN tag altered or remade to designate a Hemi. With no factory records to refer to, this can be hard to prove.

In fact, the best protection against a car being faked or cloned is to have the VIN published in a registry or advertised on ebay to show the world that this car exists.

I expect this sellers "VIN paranoia" will likely hold down the bidding on his car, and if it does meet reserve, the sale price will be less than if he was willing to relase the VIN and invoice. So in this case, the sellers paranoia may work to the advantage of the high bidder.

Holy Cow,
I agree HFR, after reading so many horror stories about misrepresented vehicles, who in their right mind would bid or seek to put forth a winning bid?

Also, what's up with one of one ? Is seller referring to the black on black ? Probably but Doubt that can be proven.

The seller seems naive but with 11 bids already, maybe I'm naive !
There is not even any mention of #s matching drive train. If I'm a cash buyer, I'm saying no thanks to this one, hardly any info and far, far too much left to imagination

I asked him, if there was a price at which he would sell now. His answer.....

"YES THERE IS $785,000 NO LESS"

Even a scan of the PHS with part of the vin covered would help in giving the bidders some peace of mind. A better engine bay shot would be nice too.
$75,000.00 + right now with 9+ days to go. This should be interesting!

Is it me or is there no rear wheel molding on the driver side rear wheel?

IF REAL one heck of a nice car. It's not really hard to believe that people would bid on a car with no evidence since the buyer will go to the car and have it checked out and if it's a fraud they won't pay for it.

If you have that kind of money you have the brains to check it out (I hope!)

C'mon guys. This is clearly the only black Ram Air 4 '70 Judge that came without the driver's side rear wheelwell moulding.

umm ... uhh ... 785k ?

Had no idea I was that far out of the loop. I would have predicted 175-225k on the bidding. 785k - it must just be more of a publicity stunt.

By members on this board, there have been no less than 1 auto and 1 4spd Blk/Blk 70 IV Judge.

Agree that a scan of PHS with whatever blocked out would be more than just mildly appropriate.

CMON JOHN, YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT.
785 SEEMS FAIR!!
I'LL SELL MINE!!!!!!
LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW...I KNOW OF AT LEAST 7 RAM IV BLACK JUDGES..THIS MAKES EIGHT.

There was a black 70 Judge Ram IV 4-spd in the Charlotte area in the 80s. The owner wrecked it in the mid-late 80s.

It was not a low mileage car and had been run somewhat hard. The car was involved in an accident and hit in the front end. I believe it was hit on the left side fender. I sold the owner a round port manifold for the side that took the hit.

I saw the owner at a small swap meet in the early 90s. He was driving a 79 T/A WS6 4-spd and had not restored the Judge yet. I don't know what happened to it after I moved to Raleigh.

Mike

I just sold ( it was picked up 10 days ago) a black on black 1970 judge ram air iv , 4 speed 4:33 posi car with 24 options, it looked nothing like this one, that is one hell of a nice car

My reply was " I'm sorry, I didn't see the convertible top in the picture".

I he gets $785,000 then my '70 455 RA 4spd Convertible (fully loaded) is going on ebay the next day! And because it's Christmas I'll even consider (for a one time offer only) selling my car for half price of his!

Hey ... more power to him!

Let's get the predictions of how high it goes. It will not run to completion.

I SAY $110,000 max.

$150,000 all day long for that car, Phil right after you sell your car my judge conv is going for sale any takers?, 325K taking deposits now.

Q: THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY NICE CAR. I AM A SERIOUS BUYER WITH CASH AND 100% FEEDBACK--I COLLECT NICE CARS LIKE THIS ONE--ALL I ASK IS LIKE THE GENTLEMAN BEFORE ME--SHOW US SOMETHING TO VERIFY THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS CAR--YOUR DESCRIPTION IS VERY LIMITED--I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM COMING TO LOOK AT THE CAR BUT IST I WANT TO KNOW IT'S THE REAL DEAL. J28046
Nov-21-06
A: IF YOU WIN THE AUCTION YOU CAN COME HERE LOOK OVER ALL PAPER WORK AND HAVE JIM MADDISON AT PHS REFAX OVER WHILE YOU WAIT AND THEN SEE FOR YOUR SELF.I WILL EVEN PAY THE $45 THEY CHARGE FOR YOU TO SEE THE PHS.I AM TOLD BUY SEVERAL PEOPLE NOT TO PUT OUT ALL THE PAPER WORK FOR PEOPLE TO CLONE VINS AND SHIP CARS OUT OF COUNTRY. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS WORLD WE LIVE IN.

This is getting funny. I wonder if he wears tin foil around his head to keep out signals from aliens.

i wonder if i could take out a 50 year loan?maybe my great-great grand children would have it paid off by then!and you guys think i want too much for my 69 raiv judge.he11,its a giveaway!

I hope he understands if the high bidder gets there and something is askew, or paperwork doesn't line up the bidder will walk, as they should

That was the IV 4spd I was referencing earlier. I informed 2 folks of it and told them to buy it after you offered it to me - neither of them triggered. 2bad4them.

LawBreaker had the Automatic IV. Anyone else here have a Blk/Blk IV Judge ?

I thought Gregs would sell at 135k. Heard he pulled it from market and going to keep it now ! Good !

... or the Willie Nelson tour bus/tow vehicle hooked to the Nascar quality enclosed transport trailer ...

is that a retractable judge?

Nope, just the hemp carpet backing burning from the exhaust pipe heat.:heh:

Buy with confidence !
 

He is just ROCKIN' with the 90.3 % feedback !
Interesting to read the replys....

I know of another ram air 4 70 black on black judge in Rockford Ill. Car is currently being restored.

prices on the rise
 

Next bid meets reserve? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...QQcmdZViewItem

You must have copied the link wrong. The car is still going. It's at $103,000 and it doesn't say "Next bid hits reserve."

My prediction of $110,000 may have been too low. I hope people don't get stupid and start bidding higher from this board thinking the reserve is $785,000 and then they get stuck with the car at $150 or so and they don't have the money!

He seems to have the real deal and knows about it (still can't understand the missing wheel well molding but I'm sure I could live with the car as is for now! :)

We've got two predictions so far. My $110,000 and Paul's $150,000. With 9 days to go it certainly seems that Paul is going to be much closer! Happy Thanksgiving Paul!

Notice he does not state this is the only 1970 Black on Black RAIV Judge 4 speed but rather the only one with these options (Power Flo Ventilation,Hood Tach, 4 speed, etc,...) in the questions area

I'll stick with that range. If have to pick one number ... I'll pick 185k.

The link Judge273 posted is a frame off resto 70 GTO Vert III/auto. BIN of $7800. Scam Slammers had bid it up to over 85.5 million dollars. Now it's removed.

Guess they were not intending to drive it in the rain either....sans the wiper arms.

It appears from the photos that it has the incorrect 15 x 7 wheels instead of the correct 14 x 6?
i hate those 15s or even the 14 x 7 and if I was bidding it would definetly have to have the correctly coded wheels along with everything else

Good catch on the wipers! I didn't notice.

Happy Thanksgiving to all

These look like 14x6 wheels..not sure of code but they don't look like 7"

I'm with BVZ, I think this one could easily close in on $200k, if it doesn't surpass it. My guess is that we'll never see the end of the auction because someone will work out a deal and the seller will end it early.

Remember that this is a private auction and the "bids" may be nothing more than the seller playing games.

I will be amazed if a legitimate buyer goes for this car with the limited description, bad feedback, and negative attitude of the seller.

A rare, highly desireable RAIV JUDGE and a "restored" car. Resto to one is paint and run (for sale) to another.

Even with fresh looking paint on ext I see
some "question areas" in engine bay: older looking rad shroud, paint old and faded around hood latch area, top of core support, water spots, inner fenders paint "old" looking, wrong battery. Chrome on valve covers looks old.

Cars of this "apparent" pedigree, if it were in my possesion, and I was a seller, would have a dedicated web site with an associated video with a complete walkaround. Along with that a hundred or so pictures. All paperwork and history listed, along with a question area. EBAY would just be one of the exposure areas to link to the web site. There are ton's of collectors, but many who are busy making the money it requires to buy this caliber of car. If you can give them as much information as possible prior to them seeing the car in person, your market would be probably as good if not better than running the thing through a major auction, and much, much cheaper. Hell , I've never seen a Barret Jackson auction, or been to a Mecum.

I should set up a web site myself to host those types of cars for sale, with the type of information I mentioned above, and do it for 1% commision, after a hundred sales, I could afford one of these jewels.....DW

I agree Dr. Doug !
So little info, so many dollars involved. Sheesh, boxes of cereal have more product info than this thing :rolleyes:

Dr-Doug, I agree with you completely. I think the reason this car is black is because of the shady deal someone is trying to pull. The all of the comments made by the seller seem very measured and calculated. Like I always say, buyer beware!

what a lousy listing!!!:mad:
lousy photos (why not upgrade from the disposable drugstore camera)
lousy info (i.e. none!!!)
missing a wheel moulding and wiper arms
no judge emblem on glove box (he does not say in his story how he plans to install properly the emblem back on the assembled glove box door-hopefully for 785k he will not clip the pins off and use sticky back tape)
repop bucket seat moulding falling off
how do you manage to install a ram air 4 aircleaner on crooked (with the second preheater)
at least park it so it is not sitting cock-eyed partly on the lawn and partly on the asphalt.

i would feel safer going for one of those $6,900 BIN judges than bidding on this car.

a few words of advice to the high bidder (assuming he is a legit bidder): hang on to the deposit until you see the: car, title, PHS (get your own copy in case of tampering), before resto photos, "proof" of numbers match (whatever the heck that is), car history, resto bills, etc, etc, etc. (you know, the stuff a guy selling a $10k car is happy to provide up front)
someone is going to be a thanksgiving turkey and someone is going to swing the axe:eek:
in the name of god, if you really want to get screwed over, have the class to get screwed by a first class scammer who put some effort into fleecing you.:clap2:

Well let's see who's wrong at this point. ;) It's at $155,100 with 8 days left. Where have the prices of these cars gone? I can't believe it.

With the new ebay bidding system it makes it hard to spot shill bidding as well.
The old way, every so often you could pick enough "evidence" out to bust em.

The craze used to be "resale red" now every black car is "one of one", or "rare black" color.

How about coining a new term? Ill start: BOGUS BLACK

I PREDICT THE AUCTION WILL GO TO $784,999

Since I am pissimest an this auction has some flaws, here is my theory:

The guy runs the auction claiming to have all knowledge of the vehicle. He keeps baiting potential buyers, of which there are many (including myself). You win the auction and go to check out the vehicle. You arrive, inspect the vehicle, and realize that it has issues. Since you have more than likely arrived with a check or cash in hand, the seller tries to make a deal at a lower price. He's betting that you'll bite at the reduced price after having traveled a vast distance and spent the money to do so.

I've been there more times than I care to admit.

Now, there is always the possibility that this guy is telling the truth and this car is legit. If that is the case, someone on this forum knows the car and its history and is trying to obtain it. Most of these cars have been tracked for many years. I only hope that the next owner is an enthuiast, rather than a flipper.

This particular car is one of those few that I've always wanted, but was impossible to find. Now it's impossible to own unless you are a millionaire.

I think SWEET is close to the truth on this one. There is a real # RA 4 4spd in Gold/Saddle for sale for 58K and hasn't sold (restored car!) and this is worth how much because of black and judge? I'm just not buying it BUT who knows?

If this is legit then the 37K Atoll Blue/Saddle car on this board should be swept away at that price (you'll be into it for 65K when done?)

Oh yeah the non-Judge Pepper green over saddle mint restored # 4spd ra4 car that can't get ANY bids at $85,000 which buys the car.

Is the Judge worth $100,000 more? For my money no but someone elses maybe. I'm just hoping to the car-gods that this guy really gets his $785,000! My car is going to BJ if it does.

I just couldn't pay this amount for these cars. I know I would rather put the money on a new Ford GT (GT-40) and be happy to drive it.

vin# scare
 

You are 100% right... the earlierst title would be 1st...
some are so scared, maybe they should put car in giant safe...

big$$$
 

Do I hear $785,001?????

70ra455,

Just wondering about this RAIV car you keep pointing to for $58k. Was it the car that was the subject of the following thread?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...18#post2629818

If so, the car has been "reviewed" by a PY member that saw the car. Does not have the original engine and while recently painted, was hardly restored. Thus, it ain't going for $58k...