71 Judge Starlight Black Info Needed
 

I am trying to find out some info on a friends car.
Would anyone know how many 71 Judge Starlight Black cars were produced.

Thanks in advanced

I don't think a color breakdown has appeared before for the 71 Judge. I know that I have seen 3 Black Judges recently. One in PE mag Black/Black auto, One on ebay Black/White auto, and your friends. There is also one Black/Sienna auto Judge vert that is still out there somewhere.

What other options is on your friends car? Looks like a Black/Black car?

Hopefully, someone has more info on the 71 Judges color breakdown as I am probably not telling you something you don't know already.

allmycarsarejunk just sold a black/white one.

I know of a Black One.

The color breakdown of 1971 models is not known. For 1970 however there were 1,515 Starlight Black cars out of 40,149 total production so using the same 3.78% factor applied to 1971 models you would have 397 Black GTOs and about 13 Black Judges out of 10,532 total production.

Just a guess but I'd say less than 20 were made.

Thanks guys for your quick response. I wonder why they don't have a breakdown for 71 models.

I own the Black and Ivory auto car now. If all goes well it will be concourse restored for the 07 Nationals. I found the buildsheet under the underlayment on the passenger side. Car is amazingly original and rust free.

I only know of a handful of black 71's that exist, one in Florida, mine and another one that I can't recall where it resides.

71 Judges are my favorites because they have the round port motor and very low production numbers. The 455 HO is arguably the best all around Pontiac engine manufactured.

"The 455 HO is arguably the best all around Pontiac engine manufactured."

Well, relative to the high compression roundports (RA 2 RA 4) that statement is kinda of a tough sell imo. Even among lower compression roundports its gotta be second to the SD455, no?

Hey thats why you wrote the word 'arguably' right? ;-)

Not just an opinion
 

Here is proof of the power of the 455 HO vs 455 SD:


Once again Mark Weymouth and Dan Jensen have put a couple of musclecar motors on the dyno to see what exactly they actually did in stock condition. I always look forward to hearing from these guys on the results of their dyno and dragstrip thrashings. Great work again guys and Thanks.

This time it is 2 of Pontiacs smog era 455's going against one another. A 455HO (Trans AM Glens car) and a 455SD motor. The 71-72 455HO as previously mentioned somewhere here is similar to a 400 RAIV Pontiac motor, has 55 more cubes, but 8.2 compression and a milder camshaft.
The 73-74 455SD was a redesigned 455, with brand new heads, that took the intake ports all the way out to the pushrod tubes, infact you can see 1/3 of the pushrod tubes running along side the intake port. This is kind of like a RAIV head with a maxed out port job, but came from the factory that way! The exhaust ports remained the same for the most part as the good RAIV ports. The intake was made of iron (smog rules..dictated no more aluminum) The camshaft was originally going to be the RAIV cam, but this had to be nixed as it would not pass emissions, although Pontiac tried infact to sneak it through. So the cam was a much milder 068 cam, also known as the 389 tripower cam. Not the best match for a max head ported engine, but best that could be done at the time.

Before I ramble some more, results were:
(In STOCK condition, running through the exhaust manifolds and pipes, cams weren't the exact original cams but very close only off by a couple of degrees in duration, lift stock)

455HO..... 429Hp @5000 rpm....9.4 compression
455SD..... 395Hp @4800 rpm....9.2 compression

How is this possible??
Well as pointed about by Mark and I agree, the 455SD's bigger head ports are going to waste here without a bigger cam and more compression, IF both these motors were made as race engines without touching the heads and had more compression and cam, I believe the 455SD would wins hands down.
BTW an earlier tested 400 cube RAIV engine made 443Hp I Believe! Through the manifolds!!

Both of these cars have been run at the Pure Stock drags and both went 13.20's before the teardown and build up. The 455HO Trans Am has run after the dyno tuning and ran a 12.88@109 mph!

So Trans Am Glen, the dyno and track show it, you got one mean little stocker in that Trans Am of yours.

John is close on the total. There were actually 406 Black '71s built.

Is there any proof to these numbers?

And the little bit about those pesky hi compression ram air II and IV motors?

sorry by any comparision (performance, market value, overall desirability,)455HOcar < RA II/IVcars

Performance like prices and how people feel now versus later can change. Every dog has its day??

Recent Pure Stock numbers; Not making this stuff up

Factory Stock ET's November 2006

1. Jim Spetzman 1969 Dodge Super Bee 440 12.12@112 mph
2. Bruno Beltrane 1969 Pontiac GTO 400 RAIV 12.28@115 mph
3. Peter Germani 1971 Pontiac GTO 455HO 12.30@112 mph
4. Jim Mino 1968 Pontiac Firebird 400 RAII 12.50@114 mph
5. Chuck Lombardi 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle 396 12.51@111 mph
6. Steve Polimeni 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS6 12.67@110 mph
7. Glen Annarumma 1971 Pontiac Trans Am 455HO 12.95@107 mph
8. Larry Wittig 1967 Plymouth GTX 426 Hemi 12.97@111 mph
9. Steve Vanderwall 1969 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 12.97@106 mph
10. George Buttner 1968 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 13.03@100 mph (Gonzo's car)
11. Dan Korb 1972 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 13.21@103 mph
12. Chris Giardina 1969 Dodge Charger 440 13.55@103 mph
13. John Payne 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 tripower 13.87@103 mph
14. Bob Klemann 1967 Ford Fairlane GT 427 13.93@103 mph
15. Dom Scorziello 1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS5 13.93@101 mph
16. John Beilano 1969 Ford Mustang 351 13.97@100 mph
17. Jeff Hargrove 1970 Ford Mustang 428 13.99@96 mph
18. Charles Lombardi 1963 Chevrolet Impala 409 14.01@100 mph
19. Ronald Knight 1970 Plymouth GTX 440 14.08@102 mph
20. Hal Oaks 1967 Chevrolet Belair 327 14.05@96 mph
21. John Freed 1970 Dodge Super Bee 383 14.14@96 mph
22. Ty Tacone 1970 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 14.15@97 mph
23. Bill Gonzo 1968 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 14.17@100 mph
24. John Sweeney 1967 Pontiac Bonneville 428 14.17@97 mph
25. Jeff Ingalls* 1969 Dodge Charger 440 14.32@96 mph
26. Mark Diplato 1972 Chevrolet Corvette 350 14.50@96 mph
27. Frank Pisani 1970 Ford Mustang 351 14.52@94 mph
28. Joe Disanto 1967 Pontiac Tempest 350 14.58@99 mph
29. Evan Stern 1966 Pontiac Lemans 326 14.81@94 mph
30. John Weintraub? 1969 Plymouth Road Runner 383 14.93@97 mph
31. Robert Hill 1969 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 15.07@89 mph
32. Vince Lyons 1968 Mustang (factory racer) 15.80@82 mph (tribute run)
33 Mike Nasi 1970 Plymouth Road Runner? 383 16.34@85 mph

That should settle it . RaIV then 455 ho then RA II . Done deal.

no i say lameass 1970 455H0 d-port, 1976 350 2barrel, 1984 honda civic 2.4L 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder 1969 250, then ram air ii, ram air iv and sd455...

IN THAT ORDER damm1t !!

now THAT settles it :-)

hilari0!

It's interesting to note that the Pontiacs 'MPH' were higher than the winning Mopar...and the IV and II were higher than the HO. Without a doubt, these cars are making serious HP.
To bad we can't see the short times...anyway you look at it the Pontiacs kicked a**. :D

Mike

Wow, those are low production estimates on the Black 71 Judge. 20 is a very low number for such a desireable color.

There seems to be a definitive number on white with black spoiler cars at 15. I wonder how they know that since it is a no-cost option, and only a build sheet would confirm that option?

Does anyone know how many white 71 Judges?

Interesting comment on the white Judges with the black wing. Does the buildsheet or PHS show WT7 on them as proof that these cars had the black wing?

I definitely like the white 70 and 71 Judges with the black wing it looks mean and accents the black hood scoop inserts.

71 White Judges with Black spoilers
 

The build sheet holds the key for proof. PHS doesn't show no-cost options. Yet it is documented that 15 exists. How does that happen without someone having access to color breakdown for these cars?

Same is true for 70 Judges WT-7 as I remember yet a production number exists.

Judge273, good question.
I've always thought that Pontiac would have the original build sheet that a car was going to be built to. The line workers would have a copy to go by.
Now whether or not Pontiac kept them I don't know.( probably for a defined set of time?)

Is your pic a WT-7?

Weren't all the 1970 White judges with the black wing all built at the Arlington Texas plant? I may bew mistaken as this is on memory alone from a GTO book I read...not sure about 71.

Reading the 'Red Book', in 71 Judges RPO 604 had the Judge painted in Cameo white with flat black wing and black side stripes. 15 made.

So in 71 it's an option, 70 I think it was just a color option that some came with the black wing? (Arlington built?)

Not to hijack this thread, but mine is a PHS documented Pontiac built 71 Cameo White Judge/ Black interior car without a factory build sheet. When I got the car with some restoration photos it had a flat black spoiler car in the trunk. That is before theythe original owner restored the car, and added stripes to be black stripes. Original owner had passed away, and his brother sold the car to Uncle Judge.

But, there is no way to verify it is a WT-7 option car without a build sheet. The WT-7 was a no-cost option therefore doesn't show on PHS, and they don't have build sheets on file. I even tried contacting people around the Wisconsin area. I bought the car from Uncle Judge, and even he doesn't know if it was or is a WT-7 car, because he bought the car the way it sits.

What I do know talking to Jim M at PHS is that it is either an Executive/Company car or maybe even a "Show" car since it is an early production 08D and sold to Wilde Pontiac dealership in Wisc in April 71. I still may try going to the dealership and asking them if I could go thru some old records with them in hopes that it could be still on file.

It is still a very cool car, and very fast too!

Looks like a really nice car! :)

Do you have PHS on it?
Thanks for the info.

Canadian documentation DOES show WT7 on the shipping manifests.I have two for 71z.

Thanks for the compliments!

All the best 71 HO cars went thru Canada it seems.

One had Black interior,the other SIENNA.

I think 51 WT7 Judges were built in '70.

Yes,and the numbers were reversed for '71 =15 as stated earlier