Blown GTO Updates.......
 

well, right before i took the engine out of the 68 for this rear main issue, http://tinyurl.com/33pne4 something started makin' a squealin', not the good kind, (like my tires), but like nothing i'd ever heard, luckily, i was only a few blocks from home, and it was rpm sensitive, so i rode it out, hoping whatever it was would make it there. (probably not the smartest thing to do, but hey, a calculated risk..)
sooooo, i pulled the engine, alternator checks out, water pump checks out, PS pump checks out, idler checks out, only thing left: blower. i took it down to my friend who built it, (he's been a bds rep for twenty plus years), we pulled the back cover, low and behold, a bad bearing on the drive rotor locked up a bit, just enough for that baby to start spinning in the bearing plate, (refer to 'makin' a squealin' above.:D ) which in turn wallowed that sucker out. could have been fixed, he showed me the repair, it's a metal collar, like a slice of pipe, they heat up, and press around the bearing boss to tighten up clearances on the bearing itself. then i saw a replacement back cover, with the fins on it, and decided, what the heck, go for the pretty one, and not worry about the repair on the old plate. this one has little removable covers over each bearing too, in case you want to check on them periodically.
anyway, just wanted to share, i always like looking at other peoples stuff, so, in the next month or two, i will share some pics of the car going back together, and some of my stuff. for now, here is my nifty blower backside, and the 'ol workbench, and mama waitin' for her new ticker...

Glad you found the 'squeal'. :)

Maybe instead of when you replaced the rear cover, you should have replaced it all with a 8-71 ? :D

Nice!!! Gotta love it when it turns out to be something simple.

I like the different look of the chrome nosepiece w/hideaways. Not something you see every day

Unreal to see that thing sticking out of the hood!.......Dang!!

well ya know, it crossed my mind. and then i was thinkin' about better heads, then i was thinkin' about an IA II block, then i was thinkin' about the new billet cranks, ah, you know the drill..................so, a new endplate it is.......for now.;)

Looks great! I'd say you made the right choice.

damn, hate to see my favorite car come up lame. Keep us updated as you know we love to watch build ups. Sorry that happened and good luck with the build.

well, not exactly an update on the engine, but i was out in the shop tonight, taking some pics of brakelines for another thread here, and i thought, what the heck, how about some shots of the inside of the ride, so you can see my perspective while driving this monster..............oh, and an inside look down my offy blower manifold, in case anyone wondered what the plenum etc, looks like.

ps, the gauge cluster is the usual suspects, oil, temp, volts, and the little guy on the right is my a/f ratio gauge, by innovate, the 'all the works in the cable' model. (brain fart on model number....) and the ol' classic, a pontiac manifold vacuum gauge on the console, (yes i know it doesn't belong on this year, but neither does a 6-71.:D ) it is plumbed at the base of the carbs, on the carb adapter plate. i have a boost/vacuum gauge, plumbed to the intake, with a 'tattle tale' in one line, and a realtime line, plumbed with a three way valve, so i can read both, and have an above and below reading of the blower. yes, i like knowing what;s going on everywhere ;). next to the boost/vacuum gauge is a fuel pressure gauge, (matching autometer, like the ones pictured), both mounted outside, side by side at the base of the rear of the scoop.

the leds on the gauge panel from left to right are: green, ignition on,(have hidden cutout switch), amber, indicator for aux. fuel pump, with manual turn on switch, (also wired into my kickdown switch), and red, indicator for my dual fans when they come on, and a manual turn on switch.

oh, the shifter is a b&m megashifter, custom mounted in the factory console, with a 'ballvalve' shift knob, made of stainless.(thank you work).

just for fun, wanted to share, enjoy folks...........

well, went to the machinist's today,(and forgot camera, arghh!) to drop off the new solid lifter cam, lifters, and oil pump. the conclusion we both came to mutually, is that i am trading him my .060 over hardblocked 455 block and aluminum caps, for one of his cores, which just got a fresh bore of .060, and is hardblocked, with new billet steel 4 bolt caps.
everything looked alright upon teardown, she is still running a wee bit on the fat side, i'm assuming that is my warm up and idle time, the car spends alot of time at part to zero throttle, there just isn't alot of places to put 600 horses to the ground around here 'cept for the track, and with my rear main oil leak, that was a no-no in my book. so, i am going to tweak my idle/part throttle settings, i was in the 12.0 to 1 area for warmup, and mostly in the 13.00's and low 14.00's for cruising, but maybe that is still too rich. who knows. it's all a learning curve for me right now anyway, with the blower setup. i might dyno it again, just to see how the new cam does, and check for anything outside of the norm, before it goes back in the car for the FIFTH time.:) :mad: :) .
well, that's all for now, got a gig tonight in seattle, might see a few board members there, according to another post in the lobby. hopefully the engine gets built next week, and i will have more photo's, and progress report.
'til next time folks,

davey

ps, my machinist just finished dyno'ing one of his friends engines that they just went through, a 601 kaufman, 1100 horses on alcohol. can't wait to hear that one............

hey, any updates lately???

hello folks, how do. well, i am going into the dyno session today, for my freshly built engine, got her all setup yesterday, and we are running it today. same basic engine, but a bigger solid cam this time around, i will be sure to post the info, and some pics,(going to try and video too, but i will have to learn how to upload vids....), so, wish me luck. hopefully this time around we have everything sorted, i feel we do, so, should be a good day. alright, i will talk to you all in a bit, later this evening with the days events, have a great day.............

davey

Thanks for the updates.

Sounds great. :)

Can't wait for the numbers.

hey hey! well, got alot of tuning done, a ton of new knowledge was gained,(isn't what that is all about anyway? i love it!), and overall, a fun day of pounding on a blown pontiac. (please don't ask me about the moisture under the rear main.....:doh: ).

so, the combo is pretty much the same, a 4 bolt steel capped 455 block bored .060 over, eagle crank, eagle h-beam rods, ross forged pistons. 7.9 to 1 compression, 6H d-port heads with a mild clean up in chambers and ports, 129 cc's, with H.S. 1.65 roller rockers. ferrea stainless 2.11's and 1.77's

the cam is actually a score from Supergas Dil, (thank you! sounds WICKED). a lazer solid flat tappet. intake is 295 advertised, 261 @ .050 duration, .589 lift w/1.65's. exhaust is 310 advertised, 272 @.050 duration, .589 lift w/1.65's. 112 lobe seperation, with 4 degrees advance ground in on a 104 int. centerline i believe?(going from memory, you know how that goes...;) ).

distributor is a factory one, with 4 degrees in it,(8 at the crank,) running 22 to 24 initial, 30 to 32 total, all in by 3500, nice and slow. a pertronix unit takes care of the points.

up top is an old offy (blower conversion) manifold (blocked exhaust crossover) with a one inch spacer (distributor clearance), with a 6-71 GMC huffer @ 3% underdriven(32 tooth up top, 31 down low, 1/2" pitch). on top of that is two 750 edelbrocks, purple springs, (5 inches i think) 110 jets in the secondaries, 112 in the primaries, with stock metering rods.(can't remember numbers, manual choke carbs..).

we warmed her up, got the initial timing set, made a few power runs up to 6000 rpm, (3000 rpm start on all runs) to break her in, and seat the rings. she picked up about 3 to 5 horses per run, just settling in. after about 4 runs things leveled off. we checked the oil, looked good, nothing in the filter, good to go.

here are some things we found: the engine liked more timing. i started out at 28 degrees total. 614.7 horses @ 6200 rpm, 614.7 lbs/ft @4600rpm (horsepower didn't drop off, but was leveling, so i called that the shutoff rpm, as i don't plan to spin it higher than that anyhow). bumped the timing to 31 degrees total, and picked it up to 636.7 @ 6200 rpm, with 630 lbs/ft at 4500 rpm. 22 horses for two degrees, i didn't think it would jump that much, but there you go. i didn't push further with timing, this is all on 92 octane pump gas. 8.2 to 8.6 psi boost was the norm @ 6200 rpm.

didn't need to do too much jetting changes from last time, numbers looked ok. a smidge rich down low, part throttle, and a little fat on top, which is fine by me. better rich than lean with the 'ol blower. i like to melt my pistons OUTSIDE of the engine.:D

so, after some tweaking, and comfortable with what we had tuning wise, we decided to run 3% over, by changing the top pulley to a 30, crank still 31. at this time, we put it 111 octane leaded fuel. timing still at 31 degrees. biggest power of the day, 653 horses @ 6200 rpm, 641 lbs/ft @ 4500 rpm. this was @ 9.5 to 10 lbs of boost. we started getting spikes, up and down, at the very top, suspecting detonation as a possiblity. we had some belt slippage after we swapped pulleys, had to really reef on that idler arm, thought maybe that was a possibilty too, but after tightening, still had spike like drop offs in power readings. several runs like this satisfied us.

so i went back to 3% under, same timing of 31 degrees.
here is an intersting find:
now power was down from previous runs by as much as 13 horsepower, and 20 lbs/ft. :confused:
one of the techs said, he has seen many times when an engine is built for low octane, power drops off when you give it the good stuff. i questioned it, beings as i am boosting it, but back to back runs confirmed this data. may car is a cheap date at the pump, she likes the cheap stuff. sweet!:D

i did not try a 3% over on pump gas, i did last time, but the funny spikes during our attempts earlier on the good stuff made me shy away from doing so.

well, besides the fact that there were a few drips coming from the rear, right off the edge of the pan at the lowest point of the arc around the rear main cap,(not slinging it at all, just a drip right at the edge of the pan, which was fully rtv'd in the seam and all around), it was a great day of beating on a pontiac. i must say, that thing rumbles like nobodies business, you could feel it in the floor of the shop. sounded great, ran like a raped ape, and was a good time for all of us.

i video'd it, the camera has a digital video out, but the only cord i have does not go into a usb port, but another one.(new macbook) i plugged it in, but i didn't see it register like when i plug my camera into a usb port. so, if someone smarter than me wants to pm me, maybe i can post a vid.

allright kids, that's all i got for now, hope you find it helpful and or interesting, or just plain fun. below are some pics, the engine on the dts (sp?) dyno, and two of the printouts. i am still learning along the way, but it's a blast. thanks p-dude for all the tips tha helped me get here, and thanks to all on here for sharing your knowledge with me, i am trying my best to give some right back...........:cool:

That is so kick asss. Your mill looks killer. 650 horse is Ok too......

Hurry up and get that thing back in the car and go scare teh piss out of yourself.

BTW, I haven't been to the dyno, but I have about 2000 miles on mine and she purrs like a kitten so far.

See ya, -Abone.

PS. You have GOT to get the video figured out!!

That is awesome HP . :)

As flamed said get it in the car and see what it'll do.

You are going to have some fun with that!!! Congrads

Glad it was 'uneventful', and everything went well.
"Belt slippage" is hard for me to imagine- could you actually observe it? All the years I ran a 6-71 in competition, I never [intentionally] ran any tension on the belt- always tried to set it so the slack would all be out when the engine was extremely hot. Although mine was a mild setup, the belt had to work a little harder than yours- 8% over crank, 12-13 PSI, up to 9,000 RPM. Just curious how you identified "belt slip".

P.S. Is there any compressibility to your intake or blower gaskets? Trying to think of anything that could allow a change of pulley center dimension under stress. My setup used O-rings for intake & blower, so no possible gasket compression.

Looking back at your pictures, I see quite a bit of cantilevering of your top pulley- mine is almost snug to the blower's front cover.

i think the deal there was, after i swapped pulleys, i may not have tightened the idler arm as tight,(attached to the snout), and when it was pulling harder because of the increased speed,(you could audibly hear the difference between the two pulleys, only two teeth apart), i think it pulled the idler down a bit, and at the top end of the run, i saw the belt go bump........bump....bump..........as it was skipping a tooth here and there. maybe three times total. not truly 'slipping', i should have worded that different, 'skipping a tooth' here and there would be more accurate,. anyway, an adjustment and a heavy snug, and it was fine.

it's amazing how much the aluminum grows, between the manifold, the spacer, the blower, and the pulleys. you can have the belt with ample side to side slack, maybe an inch or so, and two runs later, it would be tight as a drum, and i would have to loosen it up a bit. then we do some tweakingelswhere while the engine was off, and the airflow through that room would cool off the engine so fast, it would be loose again. couple runs later, tight. amazing really, i didn't realize aluminum grew so much under heat............

davey

Way go, those are excellent numbers :cool:
The torque #s down low @ 3000 RPMs are KILLER Davey, Wow
Now you'll be fishtailing around town in no time

I hope you 're bringing the wicked '68 to Tiger Run, I'd love to see it with this new
nasty set up

That will be fun to harness!!!

What kind of rear main seal?

BOP every time. re-thinking this out now. this is the fourth failure, with EVERYTHING checked each time. there is absolutely no blowby buildup, had a flow meter plumbed into the valley pan, didn't budge a bit, it's got lots of breathing on it.

i am going back today, they were nice enough to let me keep it in the cell, and we are putting some black-lite dye in it, cleaning it all up, running a few pulls, then we are talking it out and and checking to see exactly where this is coming from. wish me a little more luck.........

davey

It is the pan...its the pan...its the pan.......well hopefully. I just bought some of the new rope seals, I sure hope they do the trick.

well, i got to run the motor again today with the black light dye in it, for a couple of pulls so we could see exactly where the oil is coming from.

a good thorough cleaning behind the engine/around the main took place, put the dye in, and warmed her up. so just for fun, i bumped it up to 6% over, and lowered the peak rpms to 5800. this is on 92 octane, that's why i lowered the peak shut off. it made 653 hp at 5800, 670 lbs/ft of torque at 4500, but it started the pinging/spike/drops at 5600, with 10lbs boost. man, it's too easy to just keep adding teeth and getting more power...........of course until something goes boom. :D :eek: :D

well, i now know the engines limits on 111 octane, and 92, so that's cool. seems to be about 10lbs on their gauge. (oh, side note, we had a mechanical gauge inline as well, and that one consistently showed about 1 and 3/4 lbs more than the dyno's, he had his mechanical gauge checked today, and it is spot on, so my boost numbers may be reading lower than they actually are, so these 10lb. runs might be higher than that...) the next run was just to 5000rpm, and that was enough to get a drip drip drip.

off she came from the dyno, still in the stand, and off comes the flywheel. lights out, black light on, and guess what. it ain't the pan. you could clearly see a mist around the arc of the block, with mist and puddling around the lower arc/cap, and moisture on the crank.:( i don't get it. this is a different block and rear cap. the crank has been checked. i'm not callin' anyone out until i know for sure, but the bop seal is the only common denominator. i know some people love them, and some people hate them. i think it's safe to say which side i am leaning on at this point.

if i could spell out in very large letters every expletive known to man, i would, but i won't. i will leave it at this,

:mad: i am really god damn sick and tired of this freakin' rear main leak!!!!:mad:

mkay, much better. so, back to matters at hand, i'm done bitchin' until i find out more. the engine is staying there, they are a very trusted machine shop that's been around for years. no, pontiacs are not their specialty, but they are very well trained in alot of trouble shooting areas. they are going to pull the pan, check that main, and see how that bop seal is fitting in there. they are also going to pull all the caps. there was some serious copper flakes in the filter, more than i or they wanted to see,( don't even f'ing ask me about THAT little concern...). i am not going to go over this with my engine builder until i get a second opinion on the scenario.

so, as it stands, i got a great running engine, tuned up good, learned a ton more of info. it's going to be several days at least before they can squeeze me in to work on it and give me some information, and i hate hate hate my luck with the pontiac rear main..............

davey

ps, where's that rope seal thread..........:D

Ahh man, this leak issue really sucks ~!
And if this is the 5th time you’ve dealt with it you must be ready to smash something. :smash:


If the BOP seal isn’t doing the trick, there must be some other seal that is able to keep this bad boy sealed. I wonder what the other power adder or blown motor guys are doing ? ?

I hope you can get this figured out and fixed soon

Hmmm, Maybe the new seal that DCI sells?

it's in the mail now..........

well, after the dyno session, we looked at the filter, ALOT of copper flakes. poop.:mad:
sooooo, long story short, the pan came off, the thrust bearing has taken a beating, mostly front side.:confused: there is some slight scoring of rod journals, i'm assuming from stuff running through them, one main has a slight score where a piece of crud went through it, along with the crank.

the seal journal was ground down last time,(really rough serations,) and welded back up to spec. it seems that the weld didn't take well, it is all crazed, leaving cracks you can feel with your nail. i think that might have been the sealing problem with the rear main, there was moisture back there. we put dye in it, and blacklighted it, it was defintely slinging it out the rear main. (AGAIN, i just can't win can i ??????). we had great oil pressure the whole time, unlike the last motor. sure did sound awesome................while tearing itself up.:D

i have to laugh at this point, otherwise someone or something might get hurt.:smash:

soooo, the engine builder is coming by as well, to take a look, and we will go from there. enclosed now are a bunch of pics, for you all to look at, and surmise the damage.

one point of interest is the fourth main. the wear on the thrust surface is odd, like it was leaning forward a bit. there was a ton of wear at the lower most portion on the thrust side, the bottom of the shell, but where it met the block, it was un touched. the block half was pretty beat, uniformly. the back side, showed little wear at all on the block portion of the bearing, but the cap was only touched at the thrust edges where it meets the block. could the cap be off in machining? maybe leaning forward a bit? i don't know.

the thrust surface on the crank surprised me, i know i told my man to check it, but man, it looks rough as hell to me, cross hatch type marks, you could even see where it looks like the copper is smeared into the roughness of it, if you look close at it. endplay was at .012 when it came apart. don't know what it was before all this. there was at least a thou and a half missing from the thrrust bearing, as measured from the part that wasn't worn, versus the most worn part.

rod sideplay was wide i thought, you can see them on the drain plug pics, average at about .030. as high as .034. the old eagle crank isn't really hittin' any home runs here, in my book, but really, it's a combination of things that aren't right.

the drain plug is interesting, a piece of wire wheel is on magnet there,:eek: doesn't look like it went through anything though. some slight marking in the cylinders, like skirt scuffing, very mild though.

my guy is cool about it all, we will all work it out, one way or another. it looks like it is going to come all the way down, everything will get checked out, block and heads cleaned etc, and try this all one more time. lots of work on that crank me thinks.

well, that's all i got for now, you can all 'bench race' these pics, and give your opinions. and please, have a beer, a smoke, a walk with the dog, whatever it is that you do to take the edge off of life, have one for me.

this thing is killing me.

davey

more pics....

and pics......

last one...

Your thrust face on the crank looks more like a saw blade than anything that should be near any bearing material. That is eating your thrust bearing, plus I did not see that the bearing was modified to better oil that face.

If there is roughness on the seal area it will wipe the seal. Also the same thing with the thrust flanges on the crank, they need to be straight and smooth.

The #4 main deal concerns me. I've had to correct several screw ups by other shops that didn't either get the cap to match with the block or with thrust surfaces not being perpendicular the the crank centerline. Uneven wear is the tip off there. Easy test though. I mount the line boring bar in the BHJ main spacers and dial indicate the thrust surface.

It looks to me like your thrust on the crank was not properly dressed. Not unusual...needs to be polished.

4/23/2007
 

well, i've got a new crank on the way, an ohio. they assured me of all my query's about thrust area/spec, seal journal condition, etc. by the time i turned and polished the one i have 10/10, fixed the thrust,(yes i told my machinist about this, and he overlooked it), re-ground the seal area, and welded it back up, turned and polished it, i could have bought a new one, so i did. would have loved to gone with the forged, but i don't feel like waiting that long to put this baby back together. i feel fine running my horsepower levels with a properly spec'd crank and factory block. although i read a post about the nunzi mains spacers, and that made me curious, anyone done it???

i am also using the shop i dyno'ed at for all future work on this engine, i will settle up with my guy after all this is said and done. he offered to do whatever i wanted to do, so i am sure we will work it out.

i am still undecided on the rear main seal, i have the pre-prepped caddy, the new rope, and i may purchase another bop, so the new shop has their choice, as they will be the one honoring warranty after this point on. they know the history of my woes, and are willing to take it on. they do not specialize in pontiacs, but are a well known performance build shop, around for 30 plus years. i will come armed to the teeth with tips, tricks, and anything else i can think of, to give them before they start the re-build.

i'll keep you all posted for the next chapter, and thank you all for the input, it was all helpful, and that's why i love this place..........

davey

I used one of the VITON seals on my rebuild and no leaks.





Viton ® Main Seals-With the mandated removal of asbestos from the factory type rope seals, increased leakage has become commonplace. To address this problem BOP Engineering has designed a rear main seal for the traditional Pontiac V-8’s. These seals are not a retrofit from some other engine, but designed from a clean slate using state of the art technology and the best materials. Testing has shown a significant reduction in drag over the factory rope seal, and no leaks! Available in both 3 main size 301 - 400 engines and small journal aftermarket blocks, and for 3 1/4" main size 421 - 455 engines and large journal aftermarket blocks

Any new news???

For the record, mine makes 10lbs of boost and scares the living crappp out of me. She probably has 3000 miles on her of daily driving since March, with out even a hiccup.

Hope yours is back together.

See ya, -Abone.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ne/gdblowr.jpg

long time no update, so here i am with current news. well, i ended up touring with storm most of summer and fall, and the engine just sat at the place where i dynoe'd it, they said they would get to it, never did, so i ended up taking it back FOUR MONTHS LATER.(didn't get charged for any dyno or teardown time, after i went in there and explained the obvious....) brought the motor back to the original builder, and we found some interesting stuff on top of what we had already discovered. it just never gets dull around here does it?:cool:

first off, not only did i have a smeared to hell thrust bearing, another oil leak at the rear main, but i also wiped a lobe on the solid stick, a cam i bought from supergas dil. (bummer, i was liking it!!) made great power, but it didn't like something, and i lost one lobe.(had break in/zinc additive, and a proper cam break in.....) so, new cam dead, old eagle crank holding the door open, ;) time to get down to details: why was the rear main leaking, and why did i have such a weird thrust surface wear pattern.


rear main:

it seems that the crank itself was the leading cause for most of my problems on this round. oh, first off, i'm pretty confident the billet aluminum cnc'd caps i was using prior to this last build were responsible for some earlier leaking. a mishap at the machinists with a too long of a bolt going through the crank hitting the cap/seal groove was the first one, when a employee hooked the motor up to his machine to run/check operation/oil pressure. and i believe heat expansion was another issue for the seal area as well. they work great on his race motors, but mine was running for hours on end, making alot more heat transfer to them, being aluminum, i think they just expanded enough to cause problems. i also had some erratic oil pressure on the last build too. with the 80lb pump, i wouldn't see more than 45psi at upper rpm's when fully hot. just an idea, but nothing else seemed to check out bad, and i don't want to blame the bop seal, although that would be the easy target. ...

the rear main seal journal had been cut and re-welded back up to spec on my first eagle, and polished smooth. well, after the last take down of the engine, (with the old caps, steel ones on this last one...)that area didn't get a real good looking at, and upon close inspection on this teardown, there are many hairline cracks and crazes, easily supplying a path for some leakage. i don't recall seeing those when it first came back from welding and polishing, so maybe after many heat cycles this developed? don;t know, not a metallurgist. it wasn't pouring out of there this time, (best seal yet, but still....) but definitely would have made a mess over time. i am pretty confident this is my problem back there, as the block seal groove checks out, the cap seal groove checks out, so all should be good with life back there. the builder has great luck with the bop seal, and despite my concerns, he/we went with it again, believing that we have solved that problem. oh, i have a new ohio crank in there now, looked great, just a little balancing, and she checked out great in the thrust area, and all other areas. so, that WILL be that, end of this story.....

thrust bearing:

it became very obvious that to us both that the thrust surface was in sad shape, and he did not check it very well. he admits to it, and has made good on it. that was part of it. after checking it out some more, i noticed that the block half of the number 4 shell moved for and aft a few thousandths, while the cap half did not. i had excessive wear on the cap half only, with the block portion of the bearing barely even kissed on the front side. they were clevite bearings, there were no extra oil provisions. i believe that when assembled, there was a mismatch between the two halves. this, and the combination of the thrust surface being less than par, could have caused the damage that resulted. the main saddle and cap checked out true when dial indicated, so this lends me even more belief in this theory. he was 50/50 on that being a problem, but there weren't many other possibilities, so, i am sticking to this theory for now.

the motor now has federal mogul bearings, with provisions for extra oiling to the thrust surface. he felt good about the setup this time, with the surfaces being true to each other, so that's where that is at. my clearances checked in a little looser than last time, (i don;t have the numbers in front of me, but i seem to recall about .003 on the mains, and .0028 on the rods...) so we shimmed the 60 pound pump a little more. i had shimmed it prior, and had about 60 psi tops, so this should bring us up to or above where we were before.......

cam:

no real clue to why i lost a lobe, just going to chock this one as a sacrifice to the 'lost a lobe' god, and call it a day. we did the break in like any other time, with no issues resulting. so, after talking to ken (p-dude) i went with a comp hydraulic roller setup this time. he spec'd out a decent thumper for my application, i am confident of hitting the 650 hp mark no problem, as i did with the solid flat tappet. damn, the expense of that switch over adds up fast! i had no idea how much lifters were for rollers, i have always been a flat tappet guy. well, i have now joined the roller club, hopefully no more sacrifices to the 'lost a lobe' god this time......(crosses fingers so i don't lose a lifter bar....:D)

the cam went in fine, degree'd in great, and new pushrods were ordered after install. oh, it took awhile to get the cam, it seems that they messed up the grind, and ken had to send it back and have them grind another one for him.(thanks ken!!) i also needed to upgrade to better springs to match my pressure needs, so those were ordered from comp as well. it seems that my installed height was already at 1.800", which i had no idea, i thought i was closer to stock, at 1.65 or so. no biggie, my guy spec'd out some new springs, with just a small shimming required to get them where we wanted. he went through the heads as well, lapped the valves, everything checked out ok, so the top end looks good now too. oh, i have searched on here for distributor gear options, being my complete blower has to be removed to deal with the dizzy, i think i am leaning towards the polymer gear for potential maintenance issues, but man, big bucks! i know bop has one, and i think maybe crane? anyway, the idea of not worrying about it, and not having to tear down half of my engine to get to it is becoming appetizing i must say.....


so, the engine is done, i went and saw it today, dropped off my intake and valve covers, and he is delivering it to my house on wednesday. i am not going to dyno it this time, can't really afford it, and i am confident everything will work fine this time(i know i know, famous last words, just go along with me will ya? i am very tired after all of these problems......;) i won't have solid power numbers in my hand, but i have a pretty good idea, maybe i will try to duplicate my results on a dyno program, adjust parameters to match my power results, and then just change cam specs and see what it says. i don't have one of these programs, (i'm also a mac guy, do they make dyno programs for macs?) but i will try to find someone to do it for fun if i can't.......


that's that folks, i will update when i can, after it's in the car and running AWESOME,:D
and let you know how things are going. hope to actually get to the track this year, so i'll keep ya up on that too.

i know there are probably mixed opinions on all these issues, maybe i few "i told ya so's", or "what were you thinking?" and some things that are/were obvious in hind sight and not wanting to admit, but really, i am just sharing all of my info, smart decision or not, my fault or not, machinists fault or not, vendors fault or not, to enlighten the pontiac community. i am doing something a little off to the side of the ordinary engine build, and there were some unproven grounds covered in this project to say the least. but, i think all of this information may be helpful to someone else, and maybe help them prevent some of what i have encountered.




once again, thanks to all on here who have helped me though this.
i love my pontiacs, and i always hope to, difficult or not, as i am a die hard who does not want to give up. just figure it out, learn, and go beat the hell out of 'em.........




davey

Wow!
 

Quite a saga.

I like your honesty, you're helping us all learn how it's done, mistakes and success go hand in hand on these high-powered builds that are made to run on the edge.

Nobody is more hard-core than you Davey. ;)

Hoping for the best for you, you've put your heart and soul (as well as a good portion of your wallet) into this engine.

Keep us updated, best of luck on the fire-up.

Bart

Hey Davey, you gonna make Tiger Run?

you know what dave? i think i am going to try this year, missed it last year. the first year, during the cruise the night before, a freak wind storm hit, and blew a stick into my dual electric fans, grenading one, locking it up, and damn near staring an electrical meltdown before the fusible link let go. i had to pedal her home on one fan early the day of the drags, but i made it. second year, i had the oil leak goin' good, but i said to hell with it, put a diaper under there and drover her the 3 1/2 hours anyway, but no draggin'.

i haven't made reservations or entered for the show yet, but i think i will try to make it over, and at least do the car show/dinner. i'm not sure if i'll be taking her down the track, we'll see. i have some potential fuel delivery issues to deal with, and i'm not keen on burning up this one just quite yet...;)

so, if all goes well, you'll HEAR me coming for sure. hopefully the only whining from me will be from the ol' 6-71 up top........:cool:


davey

There is 4 of us driving From Alberta (Edmonton, Calgary and red Deer) All driving GTO's. I met you two years ago, and missed last year also. Hoping to drive there and dragging at the track hopefully and not getting dragged home!!! Hopefully the weather is good!! See yeah there!

Wow it was a long journey Davey, I hope the rest of the trip is a smoother ride. :D

Thanks for posting all the info. You and the GTO need to make it to Norwalk this year. Maybe a couple of concerts along the way to pay for it. ;)

making it to norwalk would be awesome! shane molinari is a casual friend, he's been there the last couple years, we have the same machinist........ a long journey indeed, but hey, isn't life that way anyway?;) thanks for the words, a little needed at this point, getting her back on wedensday, puttin' her in on saturday, so i'll post updates as is unfolds......

thanks david,

davey

she's back in the hole!!! well, got the motor dropped in today, had a little hassle getting the tranny mated, but what's new eh? anyway, feels good to have the two together again, it's been over a year!

waiting on my bop distributor gear, other than that, i think i have everything to get her up and running. i will probably have to wait to put on the blower, as it is a major pain to deal with the distributor when it's all on there in your way. soooo, tomorrow is finishing up the bottom end, exhaust, starter, oil filter housing, some wiring, new oil temp probe in pan. then i can put her on the ground for good, and start in on the accessories like the alternator, power steering, radiator, coolant lines, tranny lines, and miscellaneous wiring. then, when i get my dizzy gear, i will stab it, and put the blower back on.

i am still pondering some fuel supply stuff, all this talk about restrictions and fittings around here got me to thinking about changing some stuff. so, my holley mechanical is apart, for some mods on the inlet/fittings. once i get that sorted, i will once again her the rumble that i have missed so......

oh, my neighbors stopped by, and they were like, "oh dear, looks like we will be hearing the thunder on the weekends again huh." i said, "more like monday through friday, i have some time to make up behind the wheel." a courtesy laugh ensued on there part, looking oh so happy about me shaking the windows loose at 6:00 every morning on my way to work........

it's ok, she's my cousin, her dad is half owner with me on this project, they don't have a choice right? i thought you'd all agree.....:D ;) :D

Great news that you got that bad ass ride back together again Davey !
Got distributor yet ?
Still thinking of hitting TR2008 ?
Wanna race from Boring to Government Camp ? LOL

Hey Alberta Guys!
Look forward to seeing our friends from the North @ TR2008 too
We're driving the goats down from Seattle

It will be good to meet yeah, we will be the goats with all the Bugs on them!!! Hoping to race a Madris and drive home.......drive home being key!!!

got the distibutor finished, got the gear from bop, took her apart, freshened her up, and opened it up to 10 crank degrees instead of 8. i usually ride about 22 initial, and 32 all in. it was making more power at up to 34 degrees, but i'm playing it safe at 32......


i had to use the engine hoist to put the blower back on, i lost my helper, it seems there was more to do than i expected before i could put in on. i had to prelube the engine, which of course i couldn't find my pump drive tool i bought awhile back, so i carved up an old pump drive shaft with a hacksaw, ground it up real nice to fit the pump shaft, put a collar of tubing around it to keep it centered, worked like a charm. and i almost forgot to the the oil filter on. then realized i didn't have one, so off to napa, the 51049 works great, it's taller than stock, same width, fits great with room to spare with my dougs headers.......

i got oil out of every rocker no problem after bumping it over a couple of cycles. oh, i learned that my electric choke wire can burn a nice mark onto your windshield molding, don't ask me how i know....;) after that was dialed, i cleaned up my plug wires, checked the plugs, and on went the cap. oh yeah, i got real lucky, distributor went in were i wanted it clocked to first stab. at least something went easy!

i put the motor at roughly 24 degrees BTDC, then i turned on the ignition, and slowly turned the distributor housing until i heard the spark pop, then i knew i had spark right at about where i set the motor. this will get me going good, until i get her timed initially.......

so, i am at finishing up linkages, hooking up boost and fuel gauges, fuel line, radiator, hoses, charge the battery and get this thing going again.

heres a couple pf pics, just so you can see how tight it is back by the distributor, hence making sure everything is jake back there before the blower goes on. there is actually more room back there than there was before i got the new blower back plate!


take care folks, probably one more update, then she breathes again.........


davey

thats awesome!! i'm in portland or. too i wanna see that car run in person! you ever need any help let me know!! i'm still workin on my 490 for my gp but it won't be done for the tiger run, have to drive the ole pick up down there i guess, i have an extra eagle 4.25x3.25x2.20 i'd let go real cheap if you ever need it thrust was done by sd-perf, It's nice to see another bad a** pontiac in the northwest!

Alright...get her down to Tiger Run. Bring your girl Storm too!