can this be real? 65 4dr 2+2
 

Just saw this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Only-...QQcmdZViewItem

In MY opinion it is a 65 Ventura 421 car with 2+2 embelms on it. The tach is a vacuum gauge pod with a Sun type tach inside it. I also believe that the 421 emblem under the hood was not available until 1966.
Take a good look at the PHS. It looks like someone added a little yellow highlighter to a few places.

Let's see...in 42 years, is it possible that someone altered/modified the car? Hmmmmm I'd want to get PHS report myself, not look at the seller copy.

I agree. It is a fully loaded 65 4 door but he wants the moon for it. I think old "Red and Irene" would be very dissapointed if they knew the car was on Ebay. That was a nice gift though but this guy seems suspect to me. $20k for a four door, hell, JerryH is having a hard enough time selling his convert cat with a 421, this guy needs to take note.

When I bought my new 65 2+2 it came from the factory with the 421 emblem installed under the hood.

I could not resist. I had to email them. What I got in return was someone that does not know anything about Pontiacs. They got a car that happens to be in good condition which someone threw some badges on and doctored up a PHS and now they want to cash in. They are conviced it is a 2+2, I dont have the heart to let them know, but then again, they probably wont listen.

Here is the response from ********.

Hello, the vin is correct and this really is a true 2+2. The vin numbers for the 2+2 start at 5237 and continue through 5267, and this car falls into the 2+2 category with a 5239 number. A few people understandably have sceptecism, but I assure you this car is what I state it is. The fenders are solid. From what I know this car should have a posi but I really am not sure. I checked it out and couldn't seem to find what you were asking for. I didn't see anything on the PHS under limited slip. If you need anything else I would be happy to get it for you. Thanks for your interest, ********

Thats what I thought.

I guess that it just goes to show that nothing was written in stone back then.

The 65 fan guard was not drilled for the emblem and the 66 was.

Looking at the build sheet on ebay, it doesn't show the section that would indicate a 2+2 option (section 38). I looked at Patricks convertible 2+2, 421, 3spd on the floor, transistor igintion build sheet this past weekend. It had the 38-1 indicated on the punch card, which would be the first section. If you really want to know what it is, have him send you a picture of the ENTIRE punch card and we can go from there.

Looking a what he has on ebay, it does have an "economy" axle in it. The YH motor is a 338hp 421, which most of you probably know.

-r-

Do you think 'ol Red just might have picked up the odd part as they "fell" to the floor while he working the line?????

And where better to put them............ AFTER he retired!!!!!:rolleyes:

I had the seller send me the full billing history punch card early in the auction. As expected, box 38 is blank.

I hate it when people add badges and associate BS stories with otherwise nice cars.

BDK,

Yep, I kind of figured that the 38 box was blank. That's probably why that picture was cropped in the fashion that it was. The one thing that really chaps my @$$ is the unethical attitudes of a lot of these "collector car" folks. It's really going to end up giving us true collecters a bad name. I wish people would just sell the car for what it is (okay, I'd better stop before I get on a long winded B#$%&*)

-r-

my thoughts exactly.

mike

Wait a minute... I have a 4 door Ventura and the 2+2 emblems are off of the "real" 2+2 while I do the body work. Hmmmm. Scan the PHS, photoshop, print and I could turn my $2,000 car into a one of a kind $20,000 car? Man, why didn't I think of that first? Now mine would not be as valuable, because it would only be a two of a kind car. :doh: :rolleyes:

I do not know why people are even discussing this car. The guy selling this 4 door Catalina is either an idiot or a crook. Anybody that knows anything about the 1965 Pontiac 2+2 knows they were only built in 2 door coupe, or 2 door convertible PERIOD !!

I vote that the seller is an idiot or sold a bill of goods. The info is just too far fetched for a crook.

Ditto what Doug and Steve said. I saw this car on Ebay and laughed my a$$ off! I generally believe he is just an idiot. Sure the original owner may have worked at GM and put some emblems he liked on it, but that doesn't make it legit!

I'm casting my vote: Idiot

And I'm not that familiar with the '65's, but wouldn't a 2+2 optioned car have bucket seats? This car has a bench in it (and please don't label me as an idiot, ignorant - yes, idiot-no)

-r-

ron, to my knowlege, yes the buckets were a part of the pkg.

idiot seems to fit. a guy i worked with in the dealership told me once " there's an ass for every seat, just some of them have a first name of dumb".

mike

I got a nasty response back for posting her response to me here. Now i'm no expert on this but 2+2's had buckets, 421's, louvers on the fenders, and oh yeah, IT WAS SPORT COUPE AND CONVERTIBLE ONLY!!!!

Sorry for busting your bubble on the car go-mommy-go but either you got taken when you bought the thing or you have seen one to many barrett-jackson auctions. Keep it, drive it, they are really nice cars, just dont pass it off as rare.

Maybe you should post (or PM) the nasty response!
She said something in her ad about people not understanding, so she must have gotten a TON of negative emails. I loved the part about 5239 falling "in between 5237 and 5267".
Some people know just enough to make them dangerous.

that just proves how far some people will go to pass off a fraud. i've got no problem with clones, all of my cars are legit but sometimes a clone is the only way to afford what you want.

my problem is with people who try to pass off an obvious fraud as a legit car. lets face it, if you're gonna clone something at least clone a model out of the basic platform the mfg built the original from.

mike

Seriously...
 

I have heard of line workers "building" their own vehicles and doing so by walking them down the line. Not sure how that effects the paperwork, though. One fellow at the IH truck plant in Springfield, Ohio threw a bunch of options including the woodgrain sides and chrome bumpers on a baseline vehicle. He was subsequently caught and fired, but I've heard similar stories along the same lines as this. Not giving any creedence to this one, but it is not unheard of. Ron

I'm sure he could have probably gotten the 2+2 emblems put on it as it went down the line, no problem. But that doesn't make it a factory built 2+2. If the 2+2 was not a seperate model #, then it was an option package on the Catalina that was available on the 2 door hardtop and convertible ONLY. That package included the 421 engine, buckets, special handling springs and shocks and some other goodies. Of course you could continue to add other options on that to include a console, 8 lugs, upgrade engines, etc. But it never had the 2+2 'package', only the added emblems and as so was NOT a true 2+2.

It's no more a 2+2 then a four door Tempest is a GTO...they should just call it a interesting 421 equiped Catalina and take the 4 grand that it would get bid to.
I agree with Doug said: "why are even talking about this?", and yet here I am typing. I guess in a way, I feel that many ebay auto auctions (I really only look at big pontiac auctions) completely frustrate me or at the very least ofend my sensibilities about the sellers honesty or intelligence. I'll shut up now...

I saw genuine Canadian 4 door 2 + 2's up in Langley, British Columbia at a Pontiac car show some years back. The seller doesn't understand that the "5239" means Four Door Vista style number. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 2 + 2 chrome air cleaner should be the louvered pancake type. There's no 2 + 2 emblem on either the hood or trunk lid. There's no "gills" on the front fenders. The bucket seats were part of the 2 + 2 package. Maybe Red was just trying to be a good husband when Irene may have said: "But Red, you work for Pontiac, can't you have them make me a 2 + 2 four door car? I want a 2 + 2 with four doors!"

I know the canadian pontiacs are different but no US 4 doors
 

here's my 66 2+2 engine bay (this is a very original car - modern alternator and battery, but still running points ignition, carter AFB etc.) with the GTO pancake air filter...that car is not a 2+2

Its back up in the other section for Pontiac. You know, if you could buy that car for 5 or 6 grand you could yank all those options and make yourself a real nice heavily optioned two door.

(sigh)... yeah right, blah, blah, blah (read the add)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1965-...QQcmdZViewItem

Does anybody know what the 5 Group accessory code for the '65 2+2 option that would appear on the Data Plate of a Pontiac, Mich built 2+2?

I'm asking specifically about the '65.

Also, do any of you have the decode for Group 1, code X and Group 1, Code Y? Again, for '65.

I apologize but I am not sure what you mean. I have my 65 chassis manual. The accessorie catalog and my build sheet and codes for my 65 2+2
and punch card.
Patrick

I do not think that the 2+2 option was ever put on the data plate in 1964 or 1965. The only way I know how to make sure it was a 2+2 in 64 or 65 is to get the PHS documents,and it will be on that. Not all 2+2's were built at Pontiac, Michigan. I think most were built in Kansas City (X plant code).

In '64, the 2+2 was an option, just like AC, auto trans, etc. It's not going to be on the trim tag. I believe the same applies for '65 and won't be on the trim tag.

-r-

you guys are right the 64 and 65 were options, 66 was its own car and an option again in 67 (i believe)


Doug
interesting that most were built in kansas city. Any way to send some info that way. Mine was/is a pontiac car 2nd week may. 65

Also you see alot of the royal bobcat gto's. Any idea if there were ever any 2+2's with the royal treatment.
Patrick

Hope you guys aren't missing the point. I'm well aware that the 2+2 was an option package in '65.

I am asking specifically about 5 Group Accessory Codes as found on the Pontiac, MI Data Plates. Not all Assembly Plants coded accessories by 5 Group codes, the Pontiac Plant did.

Things like:

Group 1, Code E - Tinted Glass, All Windows
Group 1, Code W - Tinted Glass, Windshield Only
Group 5, Code W - Custom Front Pair Seat Belts w/ Retractors

I have many of the A Body & big car decodes, but I believe there "should" be a code, probably in Group 5, for the 2+2 Option.

If anybody has a '65 2+2 built at Pontiac, if you just post the codes on the Data Plate, I should be able to immediately figure out if the 2+2 is coded.

Thanks.

that old car's gonna stink bad with all the b.s. being spread about it.

mike

I owned a 67 2+2 with a 428 HO 4 speed that I documented through PHS. It had a bench seat. I have the paperwork somewhere.I sold the car about ten years ago to PJ Heck.


mr.pontiac

does he still have the aluminium frame?
patrick