RAM AIR II ROLL CALL
 

Hi All,

Over the years there have been many threads on rare *and* desireable -not just rare ;-) Pontiacs discussed on these pages. On occassion these 'top shelf' Pontiac supercars occassionally come up for sale either here, in Hemmings, on Ebay or at one of the big auction houses. In my book, 'top shelf' is any round port high comression Pontiac (plus early and late Super Duty cars). Over the past 10+ years I've seen 1970 RA IV TA's, 1969-70 RA IV GTOs and Judges, 1973 Super Duty cars and 62-3 factory Super Duty cars all sell in one public venue or another. Sometiems several examples of each would sell in a single year.

The one exception is Ram Air II cars. Both in GTO and Firebird form.

What gives? Yes I own one (RA II Bird) so maybe I'm biased but I also have owned most of the above and without question the RA II is the most brutal of the bunch (including IV cars).

My quesion is simple. Why do RA II GTOs and Firebirds almost NEVER change hands (even private transactions are exceedingly rare). My only guess is they (esp Birds) were ripped in half due to their 1/4 mile prowess back in the day. (See Jim Mino for more recent proof of that.) Or perhaps, with zero point zero badging (unlike Judge/TA stripes, spoilers, stickers, other psychadelic fanfare, etc) they werent 'saved' during the following decades becasue they were *too* stealth-like?

Anyhow, I'd like to get a better handle on how many of these cars are still around today (restored, or unrestored, with or without their original drivetrain).

Documented RA II cars that I am aware of with owners names withheld for their privacy total 12 in all...(Again, not including he said she said, rumored/undocumented cars)....

10 Birds
8 hard top
2 convertibles
--3 RA II Birds fully restored (1 of which is a convert)--

2 GTOs
both Convertibles
--one RA II GTO fully restored--

My RA II Bird (3 owners, 62k, matching, verdoro, 4speed, bench seat, fully restored)
RA II convert Bird (triple black, 4speed, concours, matching)
RA II Bird (verdoro, 5k miles yet fully restored, matching? 4spd)
RA II convert Bird (matching, complete, 4spd orig red now green (?!) needs full resto)
RA II Bird (4speed, nightshade, matching, in need of full resto)
RA II Bird (4speed, matching two owners, needs full resto)
RA II Bird (lo mi, matching, unrestored, 4spd, green needs cosmetic,sitting 20+yr)
RA II Bird (4speed, autumn bronze, non matching?)
RA II Bird ( "" "" "")
RA II Bird (4speed/auto, black(orig)?, matching?- used at PS drags
RA II convert GTO (triple black, matching, unrestored, 4speed, recent mags)
RA II convert GTO (automatic, lo miles, matching, restored in last 10-15 yrs)
--a few more 'rumored' cars...(but none flat out documened)--

All in all, 110 RA II Birds and 246 RA II GTOs were built in 1968. Very low prodcution to be sure but nevertheless one would think we would see a FEW pop up every now and again. Over the past 15 years Ive seen zero Ram Air IIs correctly advertised for sale in a public forum of any kind.

Comments on any of this?

Also if you can add to this list by all means feel free to do so!

Is the black gto ra2 convertible 4spd with low low original miles for sale in NYS on your list?

I think the "sleeper" factor applies here.

Unlike a Judge or Trans Am, the RAII cars had no visual identification,
Plus, most were probably ordered with the intention of racing (1/4 mile or street).
Another point: Most were probably ordered by a customer; not the dealership.
Most of the Broadcast Copies I've seen have a "TAG_____" note on the bottom...
(only found on special orders)... with a last name.

From what I've learned about my '68 RAI Firebird Conv., the original owner special ordered it (last name is on B'Cast sheet.... "TAG COX"). Raced it for a time and then
sold it. The second owner had no idea that it was a rare, Ram Air car (because it was sold with the closed scoops installed). He was also a Chevy guy so the original "WI" engine was pulled and sat in the garage while a built 327 went in. Next owner didn't get the original engine but did point me back to 2nd owner who still had it. I would guess that many of the RAII cars that did survive ended up being 'converted' into average Firebirds... Ram Air parts missing.

Perhaps the original engines were destroyed (or pulled for an upgrade) leaving the car to live on as a 'regular' Firebird (or GTO). Not everyone knows of the Billing History or PHS. Not every car has been discovered (many still lurk in weeds, barns, garages).
Then there are those who own a Firebird or GTO who could care less about it's history;
They drive it and enjoy it as is.

I've heard more than one story about how some of the early Super Duty cars were found and the determination it took to track them down. It all starts with knowing the VIN. Once you have the original VIN, which State, Dealer it was sold to, the hunt begins. We may not be able to track down Osama, but we can find old cars :)

So, imagine if one had access to the VINs for all RAII or Super Duty cars. Suppose they also had access to files that noted which dealer the car was originally shipped to.
Now you're at least in the state/city. The search begins. DMV records, old Auto Swappers, Newspaper classifieds, insurance records, dealer records. A good detective has connections to info the average person can't access. The key is to know the starting point.

Wouldn't you like to be the person with that sort of access?;)

"Is the black gto ra2 convertible 4spd with low low original miles for sale in NYS on your list?"

Yes...

it is the car listed as:

"RA II convert GTO (triple black, matching, unrestored, 4speed, recent mags)"

As for it being for sale...well maybe...RB has gone back and forth on that one. One thing is for sure if it were to sell expect it to be a mega buck deal. I have heard that he's turned town 250K as it sits.

I don't see the R/A II automatic Firebird (formerly belonging to Tony Goodman of P/S fame) on your list either.

There's a certain '69 IV T/A car that may attend Stanton this Fall. If so, together with Tiemann's '67 I, Mino's '68 II, my '69 III and that '69 IV car, all the R/A first gen's will be represented at one event for perhaps the first time in Pontiac history. Kinda' cool don't you think?

I knew Tonys wasnt matching and I thought (recent HPP mag article?) it was a 'tribute' RA II. If its a documented RA II car my bad on that...I'll add it in...

BTW the three consecutive cars I listed above (the two autmn bronze cars then the black ra 2) were all Mino's...Is Tony's one of Mino's ex-car (ie the auto black car?) If so it is listed in the original 12 I have above...

He offered me the RA2 Goat for 225K so sometimes the stories we hear aren't all true. It's a real nice car.

225K...250k

25K is "in the noise" at that point...

FWIW he told me last year that he turned down an offer of 250K. What is fact and what isnt can be in the gray area sometimes. You point is well taken...

Either way, you have it then. Sorry if I confused things. When I spoke with Tony, he told me that when he acquired the car, it was one of Jim's old cars less the drivetrain. He had installed the II equipment for P/S racing. Although I never cleared it up with him, I had also heard that it was a R/A I car originally.

Jim's cars are definitely well prep'd for racing. Tony refined it further bringing a decade of NHRA experience to finally achieve the 12.3x that still stands today as the fastest P/S Pontiac. That said, ... if this IV car is ready... lookout.

There is a '68 RAII GTO convertible out east. Black with a gold interior. This may be the one you are thinking about above that you have as "triple black".

Also, I know of a '68 hardtop RAII goat in a collection out east. I have seen it. Red with black interior. I can't remember if it is a numbers car or not.

The RAII cars have always flown under the radar. When the Musclecar boom hit in the late 80's, the investors went after the Shelbys, Hemis, Cobras, Superbirds, Yenkos, LS6's , and other high profile cars. When the market cooled in the early 90's, the other notables began to creep up in value, like RAIV cars, Judges, W-30's, 6-pack cars, etc.

The RAII cars were rarely (if ever) referenced when Musclecar magazines summed up the greatest of the Pontiac performance cars. It was simply a lack of information. I recall one article back in the late 80's profiling a RAII car, and it started out with. "We never heard of a RAII, but they say they made them...."

The RAII didn't receive much press back in the day, and the RAIV quickly overshadowed the RAII. Looking back at Musclecar history through the eyes of a non-Pontiac fan, 1969 was by far the most well known because of the 69 Judge, 69 Trans Am, 69 Grand Prix, and of course the RAIV engine. When contemporary articles are written, the only thing they usually ever mention about 1968 is the 68 GTO, and the Motor Trend Car Of The Year Award.

Frankly, I was always surprised that the 69 Trans Am's took so long to "get legs" among Musclecar collectors. The 69 Trans Am was a purpose built performance car that was the quickest and best handling car Pontiac had ever produced, and was the pinnacle of the 1960-1969 Pontiac performance era. But go figure, these cars were trading in the $15-$20K range in the early 90's when standard 69/70 Judges were double that figure.

Face it, Pontiac made too many high performance cars, and it's hard to get them all in when referencing the Musclecar Era. Pontiac was quite unique in that department.

1964-1972 GTO's : Tri-Powers, RAII's, RAIV's, 455HO's, Royal Bobcats, Judges.
1967-1974 Firebirds : RAII's, Trans Am's, Formulas, 455HO's, RAIV's, SD455's.
1962-1963 : SD421 cars, Tempests, Catalinas, Swiss Cheese race cars.

On top of these, you have 421 Tri-Power full-size cars, 69-72 Grand Prix's, lesser known GT-37 and T-37's, the 2+2's, and several others.

And that's why I love Pontiacs.

If I recall correctly, all of the VIN numbers of the '69 and '70 TA's that were equipped with the RAIV engine have been listed in Pete McCarthy's book. Are all of the VIN's known for the '68 RAII cars? If so, are they listed anywhere?

Yes, all RA II VINS are known....

Assuming of course you have unfeddered access to all Pontiac billing histories...

One more time for good measure. Gary asked me to post it again and I think he may actually make a post about his this time.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/raii.jpg

So am I correct in assuming that the VIN numbers of the RAII cars are NOT publicly known.

steve, thanks for posting the pic. this bird is phs documented and has a ---- paint code and was originally the camaro rallye green (not sure that is what the technical name is for chevy). the really bright metallic green. sometime in the late 70's it was painted this black cherry color. it is a numbers matching engine and 4 speed transmission. has the original 3:90 rear. i think it is the fastest stock pontiac that i own. years ago, a friend of mine and i would take out one of my ra 4 gto's or his ra 4 gto and one of my ra 2 gto's (all were 4 speed cars) and would take turns driving them to make sure it wasnt anything to do with the driver and race them out in the country where i lived. it didnt matter how well we tuned each car and didnt matter who was driving, the ra 2 always won. we on a few occasions ran one of my ra 4 birds against the ra 2 gto and the ra 2 would win one and then lose one. always very very close race. the bird was running 12:50 range at the track (best time of 12:46). we also ran the birds against each other and this ra 2 bird would put at least 2 to 3 car lengths on my ra 4 bird everytime.
as far as rarity, the ra 2 cars have always been the hardest to locate (for me anyway). i have found somewhere around 10 of the gto's (ones not in collectors hands) and was able to buy 3 of them. snoozed on a couple and missed out. i have only found 2 birds and was able to buy 1. the other one still sits in a garage where it probably will until the owners family sells his estate when he dies some day. my personal opinion is that they are the most over looked musclecar there is.

RAM AIR II ROLL CALL
 

FYI, the last time I spoke with JM of PHS there were about 14 RA II Firebirds documented including my two autumn bronze cars. Tony Goodman's Black P/S racer
was originally a 400HO/auto car that I restored, converted to a RA II and sold less engine. The car is now owned by Rick Watson who still races it in P/S.

Does anyone have an idea of what a serious collector might pay for a documented concours-type frame-off restored '68 RA II Bird?

Good to see you post, Jim. Hope all's well and look forward to seeing you again at Stanton.

RamAir2,

I know of 3 68 Ram Air II GTO convertibles. One in IL, one in NY and mine which is located in Ohio. I also know of another 68 GTO Ram Air II hardtop located close to me in Ohio.

Mine is currently undergoing a frame off restoration. It would be great if I could find a 68 GTO expert that could help supply information for this restoration. Does anyone know who the true 68 GTO expert would be?

My car is Flam Burg exterior with white top and parchment interior. It is also a 4 sp car. At this time I am still in search of the correct 7028273 carb and a passenger side exhaust manifold.

I dont know about the value of these cars but when I am talking to others and explain that I have a Ram Air II car they either dont believe me or give me a look like... HOLY COW.

Any help is appreciated.
Thank You,
John

I recently find out about a RA II GTO near me. Spoke to the owners brother who also is a Pontiac guy. Said that his brother has had the car over 20 yrs and that its rotting away under tarps next to the house. The original motor is in his basement. The owner does not have the money to restore the car and according to the brother probably never will. I asked his brother why dont he sell the car to someone who will restore it. He told me the car is sentimental to his brother and brings him back to his youth just to have it around. I spoke to another friend of mine who knows the house and he did say there is a 68 GTO on the property but I can't confirm if it's a real RA II.

Just an FYI, the new issue of Musclecar Magazine has a two-page feature on Truman Field's 68 RAII "Hard Times" Firebird.

saddly i know of 2 that were scrapped.first a gto that went to a yard i visted back in the 80's.someone else grabbed the heads,but ended up with the exhaust manifolds.rest of the car was shot,dead,done,noway to fix.sold the manifolds shortly after to someone putting one back together,so at least they got used.
next was a 4 speed bird.guy saw my 71 round port heads and said he had a set laying in his garage from his old car.turns out it was a 68 raII bird.he tryed to drive it like a chevy,shifting 6-7000.after blowing several motors he put a small block chevy in it then wrecked it.all that was left was the heads.i had helped him with some things so said he would give me the heads free.came back the next day and said wife cleaned out the garage and threw them away.this was in 84.
like some of you have said RA II's were pretty low key,if you didn't know what you were looking at,you would never know.

Great to hear Jim Mino and Gary D. post...

and Gary I couldnt agree more.

"my personal opinion is that they are the most over looked musclecar there is."

None of the RA IV, 455HO, SD455 cars I've owned (incl 69 RAIV fbody) are/were as fast as my RA II Bird. Wicked cars with wicked good looks that run WAYYYYY under the radar...

Gary...A quick follow on Q...

Have you ever run one of your Hemi E-bodies vs the Ram II bird?

now THATS a race I want to hear details on... :-)

Is the RA II Bird THEE fastest stock car you own or have ever owned (irrespecitve of marque)?

Mike, I am pretty sure that Truman's car was not originally a factory RA II Firebird.

===
"Just an FYI, the new issue of Musclecar Magazine has a two-page feature on Truman Field's 68 RAII "Hard Times" Firebird."

Neither of Truman's cars nor the one that Pete McCarthy campaigned were originally built as II's. One of Truman's was a I as was Pete's.

Yes & no - all of the II Firebird's were back traced in the mid/late 80's by Fred Simmonds and that is where the mid May date came from - I'm not sure if Fred kept track of the VIN's or not and if there is indeed a list - Gary, do you know for sure?

That same date has been used regularly as the date when ALL II production began, but I don't believe that to be the case. It has long been a fact of GTO Billing Cards that the April & May RA cars had all zero's in the EUN and TUN boxes, I've since learned that Firebirds shared this too - this tells me that the cars went into production without anybody knowing truly what motor they would get, but since it was a no cost option/mid year change, nobody seemed to care. I have heard of a late April, Baltimore built II car that has a numbers matching block, although I have never seen it - it's in NY.

I'm the second owner of a mid May Baltimore built Verdoro Green auto hardtop that I believe is a II, and a December Pontiac built 4spd Burgundy hardtop that is a I. The original motor on the green car went to the junk yard in 76 when it was blown (4:33 gears are brutal.) I've since bought two XW motors, one who's PHS I have (and JM has traced to find that it was crushed) and the other which I have not PHS'd for that reason. I also have the correct XS NOM for my 4spd I car which has no VIN number on it. All 3 of the blocks are "as-cast" 2506 blocks with the 2 XW's having C118 casting dates.

Some day we may have all the VINs and be able to document these like the IV cars, but I doubt it.

Good info boss...

my comment

"Yes, all RA II VINS are known....

Assuming of course you have unfettered access to all Pontiac billing histories..."

My comment was of course tongue in cheek. *If* one had the ability to peruse the Billing Histories from say April 68 through the end of production for both Birds and GTOs one WOULD be able to get a list of every single RA II car ever made. Of course 99.9999999% of Pontiac enthusiass CANT do that. That said, I can, off the top of my head, come up with someone who COULD do that though.... ;-)

68 RA II GTO.
 

There was a 68 GTO in this month's legend... sold......

Ram Air II
 

I can confirm of three cars here in Illinois, a friend of mine has a GTO conv. Firebird conv. and hardtop. He also has a Firebird clone car. So thats three more cars plus one clone.

Hot cat:

If your buddy is RL...then i think i have those covered on my list above....gto automatic ra 2 convert...the verdoro 5K mile fb coupe..as for the ra 2 fb convert....are u sure its a 2? ...his 68 red ra convert bird is a ram air 1...

If I remember correctly, Greg C in PA has a RAI and a RAII vert. Is that one accounted for?

What were the specs on the raII camshaft?

john

Same as the IV, but the heads used the 1.5 rockers instead of the 1.65's.

"If I remember correctly, Greg C in PA has a RAI and a RAII vert. Is that one accounted for?"

yep...

here is the original RAM AIR II list i put out, now with with owner initials next to them...that should help clarify...

11 Documented RA II cars ( 9 Birds, 2 GTOs) that I am aware of with owners initials...
(Again, I'm not including he said she said, rumored/undocumented cars)....

9 Birds
7 hard top
2 convertibles
--3 RA II Birds fully restored (1 of which is a convert)--

2 GTOs
both Convertibles
--one RA II GTO fully restored--

Me RA II Bird (3 owners, 62k, matching, verdoro, 4speed, bench seat, fully restored)
MW RA II Bird convert (triple black, 4speed, concours, matching)
RL RA II Bird (verdoro, 5k miles yet fully restored, matching? 4spd)
GC RA II Bird convert (matching, complete, 4spd orig red now green (?!) needs full resto)
MW RA II Bird (4speed, nightshade, matching, in need of full resto)
-- RA II Bird (4speed, matching two owners, needs full resto)
GD RA II Bird (lo mi, matching, unrestored, 4spd, green needs cosmetic,sitting 20+yr)
JMi RA II Bird (4speed, autumn bronze, non matching?)
JMi RA II Bird ( "" "" "" non matching?)
*400HO- NOT a documented RA II Bird (auto, black(orig)?, matching?)- Tony- Used at PSD*
RB RA II GTO convert (black/black, matching, unrestored, 4speed, recent mags)
RL RA II GTO convert (automatic, lo miles, matching, restored in last 10-15 yrs)

Feel free to cut/past/add your documented/known RA II cars to the list above...

RA II registry?
 

By the way if anyone wishes to PM me with cars that they know of (vs posing here) thats cool too. I will try to put together a comprehensive list (my original one + board contribution RA II cars) for anyone interested (with owner initials only)....RA II registry down the road??

:-)

PS to techteacher..check out the parallel RA II thread in the 68-69 gto section...

Gary has two for sure and maybe third GTO.

1 for sure is Vedoro green with a black vinyl top; 4SP car and original rear is gone if memory serves me correct, otherwise number match to best of my knowledge.

I want to say the second one I know about is a red or blue car of some sort, don’t know any other details but seems like it’s Auto.

I have driven the green car in the past and seen both as of just a couple of weeks ago.

The second one is blue and I think the PA/Ohio one he beat me to is Verdoro Green as well, but that was a long time ago.;)

thanks guys ill add garys two gtos to the list..up to 13! whoopie! ;-)

Yes those are the cars, they came from the same place.

He has probably told me and showed me the third a dozen times, but for the life of me I can't remember it.

Ram Air II
 

Ram air 2, in regards to your comment earlier. Yes it's RL he does in fact have a 68' Ram Air II firebird I can send you a picture. He also has the "Historian" 68' Firebird racecar formerly owned by Jim Matteson it's a factory I car but now has a 455 with Ram Air II heads. He has three genuine cars plus one car with genuine heads.

"Yes it's RL he does in fact have a 68' Ram Air II firebird I can send you a picture. "

Hotcat: On my list I already show RL having a RA II Bird (hardtop 5k miles verdoro restored) as well as RA II Gto convert (auto). Are you saying he has a THIRD RA II car? What is it? I know he has several additiona RA I Firebirds but was unaware of a 2nd RA II Bird. Please clarify if you can...

I dont know anything about what distiguishes a Ramair II versus anything else, but I will throw this website link in here for you guys. Maybe you already know about this car or maybe not.

I ran across this website searching for info on restoring my FB.....he says its a RamAir II FB.....says it might be the first one produced??

http://1stgencamaro.net/gallerytwo/v...400/?g2_page=2

yep i saw that about a year ago..the restorer (not owner) actually posted here about the car but havent seen/heard from him this year (2007)... an italian name if memory serves?

ps no idea how he can say/prove its the first RA II car made...

Can you conclude anything from his pics (like the pic of the block and the hood/ram air pan) that it is indeed a Ramair 2 car? Or do those items/pictures prove nothing? A ZR coded axle isnt a Raim Air 2 only item is it?

Gary's blue M40 is numbers match also.

The third GTO is a Vedoro green M40 II car.

steve is gary's 3rd ra 2 verdoro gto (M40) matching too?

also...biggie here...in recent years mccarthy has said that ra II atomatic cars DID NOT come with the much more radical 041 cam (only 4speed cas did). instead he says it came with the almost docile in comparison 068 cam... is this true?? Can you ask gary if the motor on either M20 car he has is unmodified and if so does it have the mild 068 cam or the nasty 041 RA II cam ...(and sorry ra 4 guys its known as the "ra 2 cam" not the "ra iv" cam...ra ii came first!) :-)

Gary reads this all the time, I suspect he will be glad to answer the cam question if he knows.

I do not know the details of the third car at this time; I have to assume the first two are the cream of the crop, I personally like the Bird the best of all four he has.

You make note that the RAII was a no cost option and could have blended in seamlessly with the ongoing production of RAIs.
I have documentaion that shows the April 29,1968 date as change from RAI to RAII
and a price change as well.New MSRP was $473.94 old was $357.29.
Hope this clears things up..

Cammer-6, could you scan and post that for us?

sorry my pc is broke and using a laptop with wireless card outside "borrowing" neighbors broadband.
Dont believe that APC surge arrestor in your UPS unit.It fried everything on the battery side.


Where did you get the idea it was a no cost change form RAI to RAII?

Somewhere along the road I had learned that it was a mid year change over and that once they ran out of the RA I's they began dropping in the II's. The same 347 option code worked for both - you couldn't specify which one you got. I'm not questioning your documentation, in fact I like it because it predates my car by a couple of weeks - I'd just like to see it.