Anybody tried "parkerizing" their own bolts?
 

I bought a big bottle of the auto/motorcycle parkerizing solution from calvan.com, just wondering if anybody else has tried this and what results you have gotten. I'm going to buy my own stainless pot to use it in, I can't imagine how in the doghouse I'd be to use the wife's.

Have a bunch of nuts & bolts I've glass beadblasted, so I'm eager to try this.

I've utilized Caswell system for "parkerizing" which I believe is the same meaning as black oxide as some nuts/bolts were done. Also, some were actually black phosphate coated instead which looks similar.

I think parkerizing and black phosphate are one in the same, I could be wrong though.

How did it turn out? I didn't buy their protective oil, but I'd guess any type of light oil, (like air tool oil) would work.

Parkerizing and black phosphating are one in the same. We do it at work all the time. The hot(Or I should say Warm) method works best instead of the cold. Heat Phosphate solution to like 140 degree. It also works better if parts are clean. Best to bead blast and degrease before phosphating.
I use POR-15 phosphating and get about same results at home. (Except I do it cold)
You can buy kits from Caswell, McMaster Carr, Etc.
But I think you can even get that phospate at Lowes, Home Depot, Hardware stores.
Always turns dull gray then when you put oil on it turns black. The longer you leave it in a heated pot the blacker it turns. I think 10 mins. is what recommended.
Thats just my take on it.

Pleased with the results and will take some pictures to share. Best to bead blast and keep them as clean as possible to get an even and deep black.

Well, I drug out the coleman camp stove today and gave it a shot. First batch I did a bunch of bumper hardware so if it didn't turn out so hot, nobody would know! Had a few issues I noticed, tried things a little differently with another batch with much better results. The second batch look like brand new bolts now!

My one comment - it has quite a stink to it! There is no way I'd want to do this in my house!

We use a submergeable electric heater like they use in cattle troves along with thermometer. I would think it would be hard to control a coleman stove.
What you do different between the two batches?

The kit I have says anything over 200 is good for black, and just to bring it to a vigorous boil. For grey it says to hold it at 200.

I think it was not hot enough. Between the little burners and the 10 cups of water I had in the pot, and the fact that the burner is a couple inches below the pot, probably couldn't bring it up high enough. It was fizzing but it lacked the coverage of the 2nd batch. I flipped the grate over for the 2nd batch so the pot was almost right on top of the burner, and it worked great.

I would coat the hardware in WD-40 or something like that after you "parkerize' them if the vehicle will see any weather. The hardware that I "parkerized" began to show signs of rust within months of being outdoors.

We use a cold blackening at work made by Birchwood-Casey. It works really good, but you really need to use the sheathing after the blackening. The sheathing is a deep penetrating special oil that also seals the coating. Even at that, if exposed to weather or salt, it will start rusting.

I soaked all the bolts in motor oil for about 15 minutes after the parts dried and were still warm. I live in a desert environment so rust isn't much of an issue around here, unless I crash my car into the columbia river. ;)

Parts I bead blast don't flash rush after weeks.

I also thought about using some penetrating oil made by Marvel, maybe I will try that on my next batch.

Hey Guys, I am curious how your fasteners are holding up 8 years later :) (2008-2016)

Thinking about doing the same thing with some of the bolts & clips that are not reproduced correctly.

Most of the bolts I've done are fine ..... as long as they are kept reasonably oiled. So ... I guess you could say that of any bolt. The only thing Parkerizing really does is add a porous layer that retains oil longer. So an added year of protection probably on a non-maintained bolt, but way better protection if a small amount of maintenance is done compared to a bare, un-oiled bolt.

It's certainly no magic bullet, and not nearly as good as zinc plating ... which is also easy to do at home. I sometimes cringe at the thought of the chemicals I have in my shop to treat hardware .... including pure hexachromate powder to treat zinc parts.

Love Parkerizing, only problem is it can be hit and miss. Parts must be glass beaded, absolutely clean and oil free. Some bolts/metals seem to take to the process readily, other not so much. Any way you look at it, it's better than a bare metal hardware.

Trying to decide a path. I bought a bunch of fasteners from
AMK that look close in many instances, but spring nuts like the fender to wheel well & the ones used on the core support are not the same. So I am thinking about restoring the ones that are one of a kind. The ones from AMK are phosphate so I'll guess its the same deal as far as corrosion goes. This car will get driven eventually, but it will be in the garage most of the time.

I do have a bunch of fasteners I had cadmium plated years ago I was thinking I would paint flat black, but most were rusted & don't look so good. no where near enough of the correct ones anyway.

I used the Palmetto Enterprises black phosphate stuff and it turned out good. Once plated i used Boeshield to spray them down figuring it would stay in the plating better and not evaporate out. So far so good. After 5 years they still look nice. A Harley restorer i talked to said after he plated them, he put them in boiling oil and that keeps them nice forever. I did that on my last batch of bolts and they still look nice as well. But, boy does that stink up the entire neighborhood. I was a little concerned that the underhood bolts that are always in a hot environment could evaporate out even the Boeshield. Those still look good too but are the ones i am watching closely.

68bird .... EXACTLY the same process I use ... even the same brands of phosphate and the Boeing Bioshield :)

I have thought of going to a firearm supplier next time for my phosphate ... the Palmetto stuff seems unnecessarily pricey.

Do you guys have your cars nearby where you could take a few pictures of the fasteners & how they look?

I just googled the palmetto stuff. Landed on this video & I watched it. Interesting that his parts look very natural in color.
Is this a different product? Looks like the right color for hood hinges & tuts another thing I have to do at some point soon....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zseVKqcHAmI

I am in the Madison area. If you are ever down this way feel free to PM me.

Great minds think alike....lol

So I am starting to get myself a little confused....

So Parkerizing is the same as black oxide for a black finish.

Is phosphate magnesium also the same? The images I saw in the video above do not look like black oxide to me. more of a gray slate color?
they look close to the correct color for our hood hinges & maybe they are?

Palmetto sells both Manganese & Zinc.

the whole thing seemed simple to me until I dug a little too deep :o


Here's an image from 5 minutes into the video.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1480446144

I usually make it to Jefferson, but not this past fall. Too much going on lately..

How comes you have long gears.......... Home come...... :D classic

68bird, I bet that's Pat?
How about a "bluing" that I have seen on bolts. There are crank dampener bolts that almost look like gun bluing, was that common in the early 60's?

Ohhh, now your really going to get me confused.... haha :D

Yup, its Pat.

Yeah, loved the '70s Saturday morning cartoon lineup. Don't know what happened to that.

Zinc Phosphate is more of a grey plating - late 60s hood hinges and maybe other stuff
Manganese Phosphate is the black plating - bolts brackets
Black oxide is a different finish. It was oily and not very durable.

On some of the brackets that didn't plate well, I used the Eastwood Zinc Phosphate paint. It looks perfect. Great for hinges. If you need it a bit blacker, dust it with flat black from a distance. it will darken and still retain the sparkly look.

Yep, the Manganese Phosphate is typically used to imitate the black oxide ... which is impractical to do in a home shop environment ... and the Manganese Phosphate is probably superior to black oxide anyway.

I'll often use the zinc phosphate on parts that are supposed to be natural metal in color, but would otherwise rust immediately without paint or some kind of treatment.

I noticed the manganese phosphate appears to have sparkles in it too. Is this picture a fair assessment of what the two look like? I'm thinking I might try the manganese phosphate methods, then lightly paint the parts to look more like black oxide. maybe the best of both worlds that way? looks & protection?

So which is parkerizing? I thought somebody said that was the same as black oxide? Sorry to beat this to death, I just don't want to move on spreading bad information :)

I am thinking the Zinc would be great on the hood hinges? I have a really nice set of rust/pit free hinges I plan to use. They do have some grim & overspray on them so they need to be restored with some method, I just haven't gotten that far yet.

This picture is supposed to be manganese phosphate (left) next to black oxide (right).

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...DSC_0018-1.jpg

Black oxide is a different animal. The left is black (manganese) phosphate. The right looks like black zinc which you see on newer hardware but dont think they used on our cars back then. Dont confuse black zinc with zinc phosphate. Two completely different things. Zinc phosphate is like manganese phosphate except it is grey instead of black.

For natural parts, i just hit it with a good satin clear. I like VHT spray paint for this.

Just found out Scott is no longer in business with Palmetto Enterprises.

Hhmmmmmmm. Is there another source?

The bolt on the left .... the sparkles are salts that come out of solution as the parts dry. Parts should immediately be rinsed in oil after plating ... I think some people rinse in water then oil .... then I let them soak in oil over night at least. They look darker and shinier when properly handled after plating.

Bolt on right is ether oily black oxide or something else. Manganese Phosphate leaves a somewhat rougher finish than Black Oxide. You MUST rinse and oil the bolts thoroughly after cooking them or they will rust, turn gray and salty almost immediately.

Do a search on Manganese Phosphate and a bunch of sources will show up, mostly kits for firearms ...which will work fine for bolts. I'm sure Caswell also sells the kits.

In this post is a picture of some control arm bolts I treated with Manganese Phosphate, and then rinsed in WD40 and soaked in oil.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&postcount=17

Here is a site that might offer some info that would be helpful.
http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/index.html

Thanks again, part of what what was initially confusing me is some people were combining different minerals & chemicals to get to the same end process. What I realize now is people were basically making their own manganese phosphate, when others just buy it in a bottle. I would rather not make it myself and add another variable it it. Doesn't seem expensive anyway pre made, just need a source to get it. I will look into Caswell.

Also, about 6 months ago I bought a bunch of fasteners from AMK. I thought these were all black oxide, but now looking in the book I ordered from it says they are finish S2 which is referenced as "phosphate". I would assume that is manganese phosphate even though it does't say that in the book? Here's a picture of a few of the fasteners. They are very black. not oily at all. If I could get mine to turn out like this I would be ecstatic :)

Here I had examples right under my nose.


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&d=1480594428

ESS-M3P20-A
(S2)
Zn Phosphate 72

S2 is a Zinc Phosphate and Oil treatment.

Found this paragraph in on a metal coating website which seems to indicate they can color zinc phosphate for a nice black finish.

____________________________

Zinc phosphating can extend the shelf life of your products in corrosive environments. By combining our zinc phosphate treatment with rust-inhibiting oils, wax, and other organic coatings, we can help your product withstand harsh conditions and up to 168 hours of continued salt spray. Jackson Tumble Finish has the ability to coat heavy, medium, and fine grain zinc phosphate, along with black phosphate and other color options.
__________________________________________________ ______________

Unfortunately at this point Caswell may be the only reliable source .... next time I buy some manganese or "Parkerizing" solution I'm going to try a gun smith supply store. Typical firearm Parkerizing is usually very close to black.

Any chance the S2 callout could be coincidence? or do you think its zinc? they sure are dark, near black in color. Maybe I will call them to clarify.

Here's a screen shot from the parts book for finish references:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1480619499

According to your chart, S2 is phosphate & oil (gray - black). Zinc phosphate is the gray, manganese phosphate is the black (aka black phosphate). The latter is correct for your hardware. As Dataway said, when you oil them, they don't look as dry. Depending on what is used for the "oil", it seems that it can evaporate out, esp if it is something like WD40 (which is really not a good protector). Then the protection won't be very good and they will rust. That is why I used Boeshield. That is supposed to penetrate and protect bare metal, so I figured it would be great for this.

What I was trying to point out is that some S2 zinc phosphate coatings my very well have been "colored" to be more black than zinc would normally be. Without coloring or other treatments manganese is going to be more black than zinc.

Black Oxide is more black than either ... but from what I have gathered it is beyond the capability of the average restorer to do "real" black oxide, which require some high temps and more exotic chemicals.

I only posted the chart because of the S2 meaning possibly being something other than what AMK listed them as. I didn't think they where something other than what I ordered, but I never say never to anything :)

I like everything we are all adding to this thread. Lots of good info.

Seeing palmetto is no longer an option, I see there are phosphate kits on ebay that are calling their product black phosphate. not sure how its better than manganese, unless they are adding something to it?

Were our cars originally supplied with black oxide? I used to think so but was reading somewhere that they where in fact manganese. But, that was on a ford website. While I think I have a plan of attack now, I still enjoy learning more about anything car related.

We used to use cheap black oxide self tapping ground screws at a shop I worked at in the early 90's. those things would rust so fast, they might have well had been bare steel :)

Heck, I'd give the "black phosphate" a try ... specially if they show some examples that look good. Although I have noticed some places sell a "cold" process phosphate treatment which I've heard is considerably inferior to the process of boiling your parts in a manganese solution.

Have you zinc plated anything yet? Once you do that you are lost to the world for a few weeks while you experiment with it, lots of fun.

I'm going to give something like this a try next.

http://www.calvan.com/html/jumbo_black_kits.html

No I have not, but I have a bunch of small things that need to be done in various finishes that I haven't figured out what I am going to do yet.

I know a guy who does clear(silver) & yellow(gold) cadmium. but usually I have to get everything for the entire project together & give it to him in a bucket. Have not talked to him in years so not sure if he's still doing it. He specializes in large commercial stuff & not restoration parts. He's just a car guy so it does it to help people out. I need to do something with my headlight buckets. they are galvanized. might do clear cad, bight that might be too bright looking?

I'm guessing parts would have to be completely submerged in the solution to work, i.e. You could not submerge say half of the hood hinge, flip it over and do the other half. Would this be correct? Would the Gray parkerizing soulition offered by Calvan.com above ^ be the correct finish for our hood hinges?

The hinge on my Judge looks like it has a silver type finish (not sure on the finish, as I bought the car restored). On the other 69 GTO, I bought it from the original owner, it has a black finish on the hood hinges that look close to the black parkerizing finish shown in the Calvan.com site. The Judge was assembled in the Fremont CA plant and the other 69 was assembled in the Atlanta GA plant. Did different plants use different platings for hood hinges?

Looks like I will try the black soulition kit from Calvan's for the bolts and fasteners. Any idea which way is correct for hood hinges?
Thanks.

I also need to do my hood hinges. I have seen a few done (in pictures) where the whole hinge & spring went into zinc phosphate & is supposed to look close to bare steel. I have not seen this in person however, So I am also curious.

Yep, anything I've ever coated, treated or plated pretty much has to be done all in one shot. So you'll need a pot big enough (Stainless) and enough solution to submerge whatever you want to treat.

Zinc electro-plate, galvanizing, pretty much the same thing. A headlight bucket would require considerable current to plate. Probably have to rig up a car battery. Original bucket would have to be dipped in something like muriatic acid (careful with this stuff) to burn off the old zinc and remove all rust. Then probably 5-10 mins in a zinc bath and you'd have a fresh looking part.

Below are pics of ...

Some zinc electro plating, some control arm bolts done in manganese phosphate, some brake line brackets done in zinc phosphate, some zinc electro plated parts treated with chromate solution (hexa-chromate ... carcinogen)

Did all this stuff at various times in my shop trying to come up with the right finishes.

wow, you really push the envelope. I don't have an issue paying somebody to do plating for me. I am far enough into the process with the 68 where one more round of clear, zinc & phosphate & I would be done. There's just nobody near Green Bay WI that does this on the smaller scales that will touch car parts.

WOW dataway you did a fantastic job! I noticed in the 3rd picture some items seem shinier than others (for example the two hose clamps). It looks like one of the clamps seems to have a duller finish to it. Is this due to time in the solution? Thanks for the pics!!

Charles .... now that I look at that photo, it was a comparison I did on Zinc plated parts showing on the left side of most pairs, parts that were "bright dipped" or "clear chromated" compared to parts on the right that were just taken right out of the plating solution.

In this case I think they were "clear chromate" .... you know the gold colored iridescent parts scene on cars back in the day ... the "clear chromate" is the clear version of that treatment. It was a solution I got from Caswell .... or Eastwood. Just a quick dip after plating leaves the part with a better shine, and the chromate coating stabilizes the zinc plating so it lasts longer, looks better etc.

There are also solutions called "bright dips" .... which I've never been able to get to work well, and "brighteners" that you can added to the zinc plating solution that I find even harder to get to work well.

It's a fun hobby for a while ... then you realize you are spending more time putzing around with plating than you are actually restoring parts or working on the car :)

However ... if you are stickler about using original parts ... in my case not just for correctness ... but because the "soul" of the car I have owned for 40 years is in those parts :), then it's worth it to mess around with this stuff.

I have done a lot of manganese phosphate plating/parkerizing using the Calvan product and Palmetto's solution. The Calvan is better and more economical in my opinion, and you can get it on Ebay. It is pretty easy to do if you exercise reasonable care, follow the directions, and use common sense. It does not produce the dry black granular type coating shown in a few pictures. I have also used their grey phosphate solution and it too worked well. I have never tried Boeshield as an after plating coating, but have ordered some and am excited about trying it.

Regarding commercial plating, Colorado Plating does a great job on Gold, Silver and Black cadmium plating. They have a 6lb minimum, which is hard to meet, but the minimum price is only a $100 or so, and the turnaround is quick.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4xky4opi.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...psznryjwrr.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...pse8joomr1.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...psfpn4hgvs.jpg

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...psdbvzjcql.jpg

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Bob, what was your prep routine for those bolts? I haven't had any luck unless I bead blast everything before cooking it.

Absolutely you have to bead blast. My process was:

1) roughly clean and degrease fasteners
2) soak in muriatic acid and then neutralize in a dilute baking soda solution
3) bead blast with glass beads following which fasteners should only be handled while wearing gloves
4) soak in solution of very hot water and heavy duty degreaser
5) rinse well in very hot water
6) immerse fasteners in boiling distilled water
7) transfer fasteners to 190 to 200 degree parkerizing solution which I typically mix 50% stronger than recommended
8) once fasteners have reached desired level of finish color transfer back to boiling distilled water to rinse
9) remove from distilled water, quickly blow dry with compressed air and immediately immerse in motor oil