Hand stampings on data tags???
 

i looked at a basket case judge over the weekend, on the data tag there was a hand stamp of a 2 in the upper left & a 10 in the upper right. these were hand stamped.
Ive never seen this before... i had to scape a ton of paint off the tag to read but there they were....

any info on stamped data tags & what they mean? car was a framingham car.

Hmm, I've only seen them on Fremont built cars. my current GT-37 and the 66 GTO I used to own had this. I don't recall it on the 71 LeMans I parted and the 69 GTO parts car I had, the vin and data plate were removed before I got it. I think Held For Ransom was gathering info on these but it may only relate to Fremont built cars.

There is a 4 in the upper right hand corner of my Baltimore Built 68 GTO tag, but it is stamped from the back like the rest of the figures.

My 69 has a 3 in the same location, Baltimore Built, but same thing, stamped from the back.

I have a hand stamped 4 on the upper right corner of my 70 GTO Baltimore plant stamped from the back also.still wondering what it means

I have several Atlanta built cars with this hand stamping. Numbers range from 1 to 12. What they mean is unknown to me.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a hand stamping and what's different than the rest of the tag's stampings??:noidea::noidea:

The data tag is stamped by machine, all of the digits and letters at the same time.

Hand Stamping is when someone else has come along after the fact and manually (ie, perhaps with a hammer and a "punch") wacks it one more time to add these additional digits.

I am familiar with hand stamping with respect to VINs, on the frame or engine block, to correct a mistake made by the automated equipment (usually the offending characters are "X"-ed out and the correct numbers hand stamped back in). I am not familiar with hand stamps on data tags and would only be guessing if I offered an explanation.

Sweetjudge - the ones you were looking at; were they stamped from the front or from the back?

K

Thanx Keith...May be my eyes/monitor, but that 4 doesn't look that different stamping-wise than the rest of the tag, does it?:ranger:

excellent point. The ones I'm referring to are stamped from the front and are completely different in style and font from the regular data plate stampings we are used to seeing.

yes these were stamped after the fact with a steel stamp & a hammer from the front.

It doesn't to me either, it's just on an angle and in a location that should have nothing.

I've got some Service News somewhere that has some info on stampings for certain years.

But seems most of them had a hole punched or something.

I know that some 68 (I believe) had a stamped tag if it came with shoulder belt mounts. ( but may not have the belts themselves?)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I 've seen it on '69z

Some info on accessories codes below from a site with 68 info for information purposes. Also picture of 68 data plate: from GTOALLEY, and not mine.
Think they (PMD) may have changed this practice at some point (or this info is wrong) and they only used group numbers? Not much room on these so this may be the spot.


If there are accessory codes on the data plate, these codes primarily identified equipment or options installed. Some codes only identify option and not specific equipment. The accessory codes are made up of a number (except 1) and followed by one or more letters. The number in front of the code identifies which group the accessory belongs to.
5 groups make up the codes:
(1st Group) T = power bucket seat, etc.
(2nd Group) S = rear manual antenna, etc.
(3rd Group) N = roof reading lamps, etc.
(4th Group) F = remote mirror, etc.
(5th Group) O = decor group (Le Mans only), etc.

i hope this thread can bring some answers. the one i started didn't go anywhere.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ht=trim+tag+69

'70 Fremont tags are hand stamped (indented). I've seen numbers up to 14, but don't have a clue, yet.

I saw this post on Chevelles.com to a similar question, the poster that replies is pretty knowledgable in the Chevelle world and it sounds like a reasonable theory if it is the same type of added number talked about here:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...t=data+numbers

If I understand him correctly he is saying that is the tracking number of the body "gate", so the body can be traced back in case there is a problem.

It sounds like it is/was very plant specific. I've never done anything like that in any of the plants I've been in; back then we wouldn't typically "proactively" solve a problem that didn't exist yet - volume was king and we would address a problem after it came up.

His explanation didn't really resonate with me - but - I can't really come down too hard on him because, again, I don't have anything better to offer....

:o

Now that I'm aware of this mystery I'll keep my eyes open for any clues I might come across.

K

Those stamps are nothing more than quality control. Cars are picked at random and checked and stamped. The number is probably the one assigned to that person. Nothing more nothing less.

Nnnnnyyeaahhh.....respectfully, I don't think that's it, either.

Random quality checks are done after the total vehicle is completed. These are the vehicles that are pulled off to the "audit area", for a full vehicle audit. We wouldn't mark the vehicle itself (particularly by marking a completed vehicle on the data tag), other than to maybe throw a preprinted note in the glovebox indicating why the vehicle has more miles on it than normal (if a vehicle drive was done as part of the quality audit).

Similarly, body checks would be done on every vehicle, on the line, in the trim shop. Again, there would be no need to mark the vehicle as done, particularly with something as permanent as a stamp on the data tag, when each and every vehicle would pass through that point. The buy off indicating the vehicle had been inspected would be done on the traveling work ticket, usually with a specific hole punch.

The only, only (only!) time I can think of that a body would be pulled off the line, for a unique test, is if it was pulled after the body shop but before trim (ie, not a trimmed out body) to be checked dimensionally (on a surface plate). Today we would do that with a CMM; I'm not sure they even did that back then (it would be quite labor intensive) and even if they did it would be much more infrequently than what we are seeing here.

If we ever do figure this out we may be disappointed in what these digits were actually used for. I'll keep quiet now and in the meantime keep my eyes peeled for more clues.

K

Disclaimer: I should mention that my interest and "expertise" :rolleyes: focus primarily on the Pontiac facility; I really don't know as much about the other assembly plants, so I'm speculating just like everybody else.

im gonna post my images

heres the tag
 

the upper left is a 2 upper right is a 10

again ive been around pontiacs for a while & never really seen this......

it be interesting to know

Geez. They've practically got a little novel going at the bottom of that tag (ie, "General Motors Corporation certifies to the dealer"...etc). Almost need two pages.

They weren't nearly so chatty in 1965!

:D

here's another blurb I found online, extra numbers are spoken about towards the bottom of the page. No iron clad proof but an interesting page to read at the very least about the Fremont plant:

http://www.ultra-high-compression.com/page17.html

thats very interesting to have more than 1 body style go down the path... i would never had thought that

Thanks for posting, Rick. Very interesting. Still not sure I'm buying that explanation.

Absolutely. When I worked at the truck plant you had Chevy's and GMCs going down the same line (with separate VIN sequences. Chevy's started at 100001 and GMCs started at 500001). That includes Blazer and Suburban, and then pickups (2wd, 4wd, short box, long box, fleetside and stepside).

Even today at the Arlington plant we build Chevy, GMC and Cadillac all down the same line.

FWIW -

K

Sweet - I'm not sure what your experience level is with assembly plants but I think there are a lot of things that would surprise the normal "hot rodder/restorer".

I used to be amazed at the different way of doing things that I never would have thought of: painting the secondary color first, and then taping it off and painting the primary color; trimming the body out and installing it to the frame (the normal restorer would likely install the body on the frame and THEN install all the interior trim); installing the front clip as a unit (fenders and rad support together) rather than piecemeal (rad support installed and then each fender individually); painting the body in one end of the plant and the front clip at the other end of the plant (or, worse yet, in a separate part of town!).

I think you get the idea, but there are a lot of unseen constraints that force us to do some pretty unorthodox things, and things that would be very difficult to decipher 30 or 40 years after the fact.

Again - FWIW

:D

One more comment about the attached:

The body drop operation is a very dramatic part of any plant. Tours always get hung up at this spot, because people from the outside love to see that car body coming down out of the sky: a really good hoist operator could let the body cradle essentially "free fall", and then stop it instantly just inches above the frame, and then gently set it down. At that point the other assemblers would nonchalantly install the body mount cups and bolts, as if they did it hundreds of times every day (which, of course, they did :D ).

This was not where you put your "new guy", but only the most experienced assemblers (obviously)...

K

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...1/bodydrop.jpg

I'm wondering if there was a maximum height limit on the pit workers there... If not I can see where there would be a permanent dent in that guys head from the rear diffs.

No...but I did have a pit repairman by the name of Garfield Hardy. He was a diminutive black man that had to have a step stool to reach the bottom of the truck...

:D

I also had a small lady that used to put the batteries in. When we built the military trucks (what we called the "CUCV") they had a huge 24 v battery. She couldn't reach up there so I usually ended up installing those myself... :rolleyes:

K

Do you think its possible these were nothing more then special order or last minute production changes?
Somehow linked to options added?

I have read that there was no ryhme or reason durning this time and prior to computers each factory did above changes differently.

The Firebird and Camaro guys have been trying to figure out some of the same issues and one posted that some new factory bullentines had been found regarding codes.

RicksGTO, you should have posted this link too...
http://www.chevellestuff.com/1969/tags.htm

interesting link, seems to point to the same idea of the body jigs or cradles. I looked at my Formula's Norwood plant tag tonight and its hand stamped code is 65 just below the paint codes. I haven't found anything on what that is for either.

its amazing even today 40 years later we are still finding stuff to decifer.......

Just saw this topic. So I went down to the garage and photo'd my data tag. Car is 66 GTO built in Fremont CA. There's a #25 hand stamp and a punched hole. Which looks like from a dull hand punch. Interesting. I have no idea what they are for.

Here's something else goofy. For 66 the plant code B(F) is next to the BODY lettering. So the books say. They also say that the seventh digit of the VIN is the plant code. Mine is a "Z", which is the Fremont plant. A "B" code on the data plate specifies Baltimore plant. My build sheets indicates it was built in Fremont. The car was sold at James Pontiac in Oakland. I bought it in 94 in Dunbar CA. Fremont is most likely the build plant. So why the "B" on the data plate. Yes the car is all original. OR was there Fisher Body plant in Balt and then the body shipped to Fremont?

Something else I just noticed. The car was built 42 years ago this week! Or may be day!

http://www.ultra-high-compression.com/fronthoist.jpg

An original 65 Cutlass' front end will not match the paint on the rest of the car. The bodies were painted across town at Fisher body.

Thunder - nice pic. Thanks for posting that.

Bronze: tell your '66 I said "Happy Birthday"!

:D

Just a quick comment on the "seniority" system at General Motors:

Look at the workers setting the front end in Thunderkiss' photo. They are JUST KIDS!

That was back in the day when you graduated from high school and, if you wanted, you could just hire into "the shop" and assume you would retire from there 30 years later.

Low seniority guys got the icky jobs, on the line, in the pit, the dirty jobs. Higher seniority employees opted up to the better, higher paying jobs: repair, driving out back, inspection.

Check out this guy pinstriping GTOs out back. Higher paying job off the line = not "a kid". He looks like somebody's Grandpa:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...1/000_2243.jpg

I'm more amazed that after 40 years we are able to decipher anything...

:D

This is an actual quote from a guy that worked in the "switching office" at Pontiac Assembly: "Actually, it's not too amazing that we build cars here...it's more like a miracle!"

Young guys assembling the front end

http://www.ultra-high-compression.com/fact-tour-15.jpg

Old guys painting the front end. Imagine painting all day without any protective equipment.

http://www.ultra-high-compression.com/fact-tour-2.jpg

this is incredible stuff...... still would like to know what they mean...

Another idea?
 

This is probably not the answer to these mystery hand-stampings on the data tags, but my first thought was of Saab's use of these hand-stampings on cars by dealer techs. We were instructed to hand-stamp a "campaign plate", which had a grid of A-B-C and 1-2-3-4 and was riveted to the body of the car, with a number "8" stamp. The location to stamp on this plate was determined by the campaign or recall bulletin ("upon completion of recall RC-705 stamp location A-2 on the campaign/recall plate.") Some cars would have 4 or 5 stampings on the plate as multiple service campaigns and recalls were performed over the years.

These stampings on Pontiacs sound more likely to be QC stampings at the factories. Did they even have recalls back in the '60s? I'm sure they had technical service bulletins/campaigns to improve specific items.

Just another perspective on this...

Eric H.

STAMPINGS
 

That is possible:cool:

We can state conclusively now (...six years later...) that the stampings represent the body side gate (weld fixture) which was used to hold the body together while being welding in the body shop. As an aid in problem tracking and resolution.

K