Engine-dyno test
 

:)My machine shop finally after 6 months of waiting finally got the 400 rebuilt for the gto. I purchased everything for this motor through Butler performance they where great to work with. Now it's a 461 cu in on the dyno it hit 509.9 torque lbs with 402.9 Hp have a street fighter trans w/ 355 posi rear end.Should be able to pick up the motor this next week probably will be another 4 weeks before I can get it in the car.Now I'll need to figure out how to measure the drive shaft to have it cut down. Would post some pics but it's not working

What cam and heads?

I think you made a mistake, you should have used the ":(" instead of the ":)."

You'd think that a stroker kit would've made more power than a 400 with unported factory heads, wouldn't you? :rolleyes:

Would be interesting to know specs before passing judgement MD.

What's the point? He installed a stroker kit and made less power than a 400 with factory unported heads with a 60916. There's nothing left to discuss.

Where is Eric M. when you need him?

It all depends on the dyno. A "conservative" dyno like my last shops read close to the Moroso slide number for the weight/mph. A 385 HP RAIV 400 low to mid 12s @ 108 in a 3950 lbs car with full exhaust. A RAIV style cam with fairly stock heads that would be a decent number.

But yes if it was on a blow smoke up your a$$ generous dyno that the motor "can't run the numbers"

are his heads ported? If his heads arent ported id say the numbers are correct, plus not many 400's make 509 ft lbs, thats what the increased stroke of his engine gained him if everythng else is equal with a 400 with stock heads . Now if his heads are ported Id say he has a problem somewhere unless his cam is very small

The heads are 670. I don't have the paper work on all the items for it intel I pick up the motor. This is for a daily driver car I didn't want a large cam in it.The machine shop was to port the heads and intake HOW much was done I don't know yet. They did say the dyno was on the low side. Accoriding to the numbers on the block with the old factory heads it only produced 325 hp.

Yeah, but for all you know, he has a 204/214 cam and stock 2 bbl heads. For that, I would say 400 HP and 510 ft. lbs. isn't too bad. Now if he had aftermarket heads and a roller cam, I would agree with you!

There is his important info!
KSGTO has 500+ ft lbs just about anywhere above idle! That is street fun!

When I putter around on the streets I could care less about big HP numbers, its big torque I want.

where does a cammed up 400 have to spin to hit 500lbs torque?

One can be as fun as the other especially with a 4sp, I guess it depends on each persons style.

670 heads with a 461? Lets hope you used some dished pistons!
BTW, the original factory hp number for your block means absolutely nothing.

So let me get this straight. Pay big bucks to have a stroker engine built, and use a 204/214 cam with 2bbl heads with small valves, probably using a 2bbl carb, but try and make more torque so you can fry the street tires even more on the street, but not concerned with more power?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Lost 1, this is Lost 3, are you lost too, over?
BS

This hit the nail on the head...

M/D, I have no idea of his combo! And neither do you! I only used those numbers as a point of reference. Since NONE of us know his entire combo, it's pointless to say it's a disappointing build. It just may not be a high HP build. Did any stock 455's from Pontiac make 400 HP? I think not. I'm sure his engine will be real fun to drive.

Why does any engine build have to be high HP numbers in order to post it? The guys happy with his build and that's what counts. He's not here trying to brag about having the highest HP engine on the planet. He's merely stating his engine for those interested. Personally, I'm always interested in these things whether they are 1000 HP or 200 HP. Doesn't really matter. Whether the owner is happy with it or not is ALL that matters!

I couldn't care less how much power he made. My point was that he installed a stroker kit and made less power than a 400 with unported heads and a relatively small (221/229/112) 60916 cam.

I'm not mocking his engine or HP, nor should he take it personally. To each his own. I am merely pointing out from (many) previous debates about this subject that this is another example of a larger CID engine (stroker kit installed) that doesn't make as much power as a smaller engine with stock heads and intake.

Adding ported heads only makes my point even more, as that should make even more power.

The car is a DAILY DRIVER so I think he did a great job of not turing the car into a thrashing machine. The car should be fun to drive get decent mileage when compared to big cam low gear hot rods. Sounds like plenty of power to smoke the tires and move on out when needed. I say great job!!!

Tim C

So put a 2 bbl manifold and carb on it, use exhaust manifolds with a crossover and single exhaust, and cruise with good gas mileage if it's so important to be a daily driver. Afterall, HP is not important, it's how good it'll smoke the tires with a open rear and 2 series rear gear. :rolleyes:

I love it how now, the important thing is street manners.

Street manners shmanners, the stroker made less power than a 400 with stock heads and intake, bottom line.

Well it's a known fact that in relatively stock configuration, a short stroke engine is always going to HP better than a long stroke engine, all else equal. But, the long stroke engine is going to out torque the short stroke engine. I bet the 400 you speak of didn't make 500 ft. lbs. of torque either. Torque is power too. It all depends on how you look at it. The rest of the combo can dictate which way the go. On the street, a heavy car will accelerate faster with a long stroke engine than it will with a short stroke engine, all else being equal. Horse power is not everything. It's all relevant. After all HP IS [torque x rpm devided by 5252]. All I'm saying is they both have their place. You and I have been down this road many times before so I am not interested in rehashing that on this guys thread, so lets just let it be.

You kind of have the mind set of an old employer of mine. While dynoing his engine, the dyno console had a torque gauge and an rpm scale and my ex-employer said " where's da HP scale?" I said, "there isn't one because the dyno measures engine torque, then you multiply that by the rpm it was attained at and devide by 5252 and that is your HP." He replied " well, I know dat, but where's da HP scale?" :confused:

WARNING!!! FALSE STATEMENT.

Stop it. You're digging yourself deeper.

Don't even get me started on torque.

I'll stop now, as I've made the point I wanted to make. Just another example of bigger is not better.

Hey Motordaddy, this is the STREET forum.

Tim C

So what's your point, that a stroker is more streetable, but makes less power?

Good, we agree!

:pound::pound::pound:

MD-

Since you obviously take it personally when people run more cubes than you let's compare the actual cost of building a 400 rotating assembly verse the all might 461 that you like to claim is such an expenditure.

To keep it all on a level playing field I'll use prices from PPR using the same parts in both

400:

SRS Pistons: $455
Total Seal Rings: $123
5140 6.625 Rods: $228
Say you own the Crankshaft, Pontiac 400N
Crank Magnuflux and Grind (10/10): ~$175
Balance: $250
Rod Bearings: $55
Main Bearings: $65

Total: $1351


Balanced 455 Assembly with exact same parts from PPR:

Total: $1350


Maybe he went with the stroker because it's cheaper? I even assumed in my example that he owned a 400 crank!


:)

torque is also a measure of power(real world,useable power at an rpm range that people drive in on the street)500+ft-lbs is way more torque than ANY 400 with stock heads and intake from the factory,should be a blast to drive on the street.If you're not going to drag race,who cares what the HP # are at 6000rpm?Who drives around at 5500RPM,any way?

71firebird400, When did I ever mention a price comparison, or which one was cheaper to build?

How much torque is at the rear axles?

Torque is a measure of power?????

:pound::pound::pound:

What was the old saying again"" Horse power sells engines , But Torque wins races""

WRONG, HP wins races!!!

Right Here, Motor Daddy! I'm reading between the lines and it's pretty obvious that this quote says that you thought the stroker was wasted money when you're lowly 400 made more power. But maybe he couldn't afford that prestigious 400? :p

Oh MD, you're such a clown!

Thanks. Just trying to liven this place up a little and have a little fun. ;)

Nothing wrong with that, can you figure out my Holley for me!? I hear they're dogs compared to Q-Jets, but it's what I got ;)

I guess I overstayed my welcome on this thread already. Start a new thread and I'll see if I can help. ;)

HP=the amount of energy expended to lift 150 lbs 220 ft in one minute.Power=torque X2pi(3.14)Xrotational speed.Torque is NOT a measure of POWER?Ha Ha Ha!What does it measure then?Go ride a Harley-Davidson around the block,let the clutch out a couple of times at 2000-2500 rpm,(torque monsters,even when stock)then jump on any high revving jap bike and let the clutch out at the same rpm.Even you will now become aware of the difference between HP and torque,and why ahigh torque motor could be alot of fun in a street car.Besides,I thought all the high-horsepower,low torque crap was for the small-block chevy guys?

My ZX-11 rice rocket had next to no torque, redlined at ~11,000 RPM, and ran the 1/4 at 10.2@131 MPH off the showroom floor. What does that torque monster Harley run in the 1/4 off the showroom floor?

not as fast as your rice-burner,I'm sure but it does'nt matter,you just proved my point.How often did you drive around on the street at 11,000(or even 7000)RPM?The original post had to do with building a STREET car.

I ran it every nice day to work for over 2 years at 175+ MPH, banging every gear at 10,000+ RPM at WOT.

If I wanted to putt around I did it at ~1/8th throttle in 5th gear, where the engine made an incredibly small amount of torque. If I wanted to go fast I would downshift to second gear, nail it, and take off like a bat out of hell, proving once again that a higher numerical gear and higher RPM accelerates at a much greater rate than a lower numerical gear and lower RPM.

You are talking about streetability, not power.

High RPM Is Really Hard On Pontiac Engines over time Thus the need to build Power at lower rpm where its usable in a street car that has to last more than one season, Build for Torque and HP will come, What ever car has More Torque and HP delivered to the Ground Wins, A Posi rear end and Stcky tires are needed with most Pontiacs, from a 400-601 they are all good just depends what ya wanna do and How ya Drive, And If it makes you happy By all Means Do it, My 2cnts

For everyones info I probably do have a small cam in this. A couple of reasons I built this is one this is a graduation present in 4 years for my daughter and if some time down the road I want to put a larger cam in it it will hold it. I will have all the info from butlers paper work come mid week and will post it for everyone.

I'll get back to my original statement it all depends on the dyno! Lets see my pump gas 455 motor that only dynoed 525 HP at the flywheel runs 10.99@ 124 in a 3750 lb car(check the Moroso slide on it). Now pop Hot Rodding 626 hp 496 BBC in a lighter Chevelle run slower and less mph(11.30@117)-hmm which dyno is closer?? Oh and that's the same dyno lots of the magazine tests are run on.

I get it, MD has never riden in a well built 455. That's got to be it!

MD, i have a question for you. Why would you want to come onto this thread and throw down on this guys day, he is obviously happy with the performance of his combo. he didn't start this thread asking if we thought his combo made enough power. seemed like he just wanted to brag about finally having it come together.i for one am happy for him, great job ksgto. sounds like you'll have plenty of fun.

I agree, too often these threads take a turn for the worse. But I have always heard that "Misery Loves Company".

well stated by both scott stoneburg and74SDFormula.BTW,ksgto,I would'nt worry too much about how "big" your cam looks on paper.You've got a real torquer on your hands,and both you and your daughter should have a blast driving it,and at that point,it does'nt matter a hill of beans what the cam numbers are,as long as you're happy with it.Good luck!

Definately, The mustangs and cameros in your neighborhood are going to hate you!, 500+lb feet of torque is no joke, It should run mid to low 12's and easliy drive anywhere !!! Goodluck and Have fun I bet you can't wait to drive it!

I'm interested in all the specifics of the build, static compression ratio, head flow numbers, camshaft specs, etc, for comparison purposes. We'd built and dyno'd quite a few 455's, and observed quite a few more up on the dyno. The numbers look like it's in the mid 9 to 1 range for compression ratio, and using a pretty "small" cam. Probably an XE268, but that's just a guess?.....Cliff

x2!

D shaft measure
 

I just did this procedure, of course it was outlined to me by Keisler Engineering, (great people, products and service by the way) What i did was measure the dist. from the METAL end of the tranny tailhouse to the pinion flange face, I got 56 1/8. Type in Keisler engineering and they have a diagram to do this. Keisler's tech guy Richard @ ext. 201 is THE MAN, he has seen it all and has helped me immensely. He's awesome, I am sure he can answer any ? you have. Good luck.

I think you posted to the wrong thread.

BTW Dynos only measure torque. HP is a mathematical dirivative or torque over time.

HP=Torque times RPM divided by 5250 So all engines will make the same horsepower as torque at 5250 RPM. The abilty to sustain torque at a higher RPM will generate higher HP levels. IE 10500 RPM the HP will be 2 times torque.

Also, V twin Harleys are dominating NHRA Pro Stock MC two valve v twins vs four valve 4 cyl

Just because we call it a stroker, the reality is it is just a 455 with 3" mains and 400HP 500TQ out of a stock type 455 is pretty good.

Why is it that people keep posting when I said I already overstayed my welcome? If you want me to stop posting on this thread than stop making false statements that I feel I must correct your ignorance of the situation.

1. HP is not torque over time. I can apply 100 lb-ft of torque to a head bolt for a second or an hour, the power is ZERO if it doesn't have any motion.

2. It's not "5250," it's 5252, because 33,000/6.2832=5252 rounded off.

3. 400 HP is pretty good, but a 400 with stock heads and smallish cam makes more. So there goes the "bigger is better" mentality out the window.

4. Who cares what the modified big twins do? You can have 1,000 lb-ft of torque and be slow, or you can have 100 lb-ft of torque and be fast. What's your point?

5. If the following curves were actual dyno curves, which one would you pick to be the best race engine (ultimately run the quickest ET)?

http://home.comcast.net/~rmeyers202//400_455.jpg

5252/5250 you are splitting hairs three significant digits 5252 rounded off is 5250

TORQUE times RPM which mean revolution per minute which is TIME
Your head bolt comparison does not hold because it is static NOT applying a constant torque over time...if you appliied 500 ft lb of torque to the bolt and continued to stretch the bolt over a period of time.


That is not a real dyno sheet, it is a simulation. A real dyno does not need head flow or cam spec input just an engine fuel and operator.