HP results for some Pontiacs.
 

I've been gone for a few weeks, but had some engines getting dynoed and thought you guys might get a kick out of the results.
For my '71 455HO (Silver judge), compression @ 9.2-1
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ored/dyno3.jpg
For my '70 400III stick(Sable Black Judge) with air @ 9.2-1
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...udge/Dyno2.jpg
For one of my '65 vert tripower 4 speeds @9.2-1
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...CARS/Dyno1.jpg
What do you think? DW
P.S. Elk hunting stunk.......

Engine dyno right? I think those are very respectable numbers for street cars. That 389 has got some torque!

Engine dyno, with everything hooked up...Everything externally is absolutely numbers correct original. Probably could bump the numbers up a bit with better exhaust manifolds on the 389, but it has what it has. Internally compression has been lowered a point and a half, with hydraulic rollers, roller lifters, good screw in studs etc. And ofcourse everything has been balanced. I can't wait to start driving some of these:D...DW

Doug -

Is that the motor for the Mayfair Maize vert?

Scott

Dr. Doug, is that 29 deg Total Mech Timing correct on all 3 engines????

If it is, I'm sure bumping it up to about 34 would result in even better numbers...

Scott, No it's for my reef car I'll be doing when I finish these 5 judges. I had a different machine shop do the mayfair cars engine and it had some issues when my new machine shop tried to dyno it. It's having the heads redone correctly as we speak, then back to the dyno, should have the same if not better results later this week...DW

Noticed that as well. I'll bet that it's some default bogus # in the software and the dyno operator didn't bother to plug in the actual timing #.

Pretty nice numbers, DD. Ought to be some great running Pontiacs!

ROBZ, The Cam I'm using in these is a Comp Cam K51-423-9(Hyd Flat Tappet;800-4800rpm;Adv.Dur. 252 Int./Exh.;V.Lift .425 Int./Exh.;Lobe 110 deg). And the distributers have electronic ignition inserts(for the lack of a better term), as opposed to points. Are you sure bumping the timing to 34 will improve the numbers? DW

Lloyd, I'll have to check with the machine shop, this dyno stuff is new to me but definately the way to go...DW

DD - I have a feeling that the "29" # is bogus, but if it's not there's a lot of torque and HP left in those engines.

Most iron head Pontiacs "like" 34-36 degress of total ignition lead.

The difference on my RAIII is incredible (Up from 29 to 33)..At WOT, it made touching the dash almost impossible on takeoff:D:D...You really felt like you are being pushed back in your seat alot more:eek::eek:...but may be as Lloyd mentioned, too..just a bogus number, but definitely worth checking into...

455 HO Rules!!!
 

Great numbers on that engine Doug. I agree with Lloyd, I bet that 29 Degrees of total timing is a bogus default setting. That motor, if it's like mine, will only produce that kind of torque with about 36 degrees all-in.

If it really was running at 29 degrees all-in on the dyno and made 481 lb ft of torque, man, you are abosolutely going to love it at 36 degrees! :3gears: :D

BJ

Just called the machine shop, they're really big on being able to run on junk gas. They said they did a "timing search", and the safest area was at 29, but that if I wanted to really run any of these to buy some good gas and advance the timing and I would be amazed...somewhere between 10-20% increase in all numbers, which blows me away. So the 29 isn't a bogus number afterall, that's where they're set.
The '71 is setup with a very well restored "built" tranny, a suggested 2200 stall converter, and 3.73 posi......Should be fun:D...DW

Doug - IF the engines were machined and assembled correctly, and IF they're really all 9.2:1, and IF the fuel systems and carburetors are dialed in, 34-36 degrees of lead will NOT require anything other than pump fuel.

My Formula 455 engine is 9.98:1, and I run 34 degrees with absolutely no ping, spark knock or detonation.

In fact, at only 29 degrees of lead, I'll bet they're gonna run hot!

Hmmmmmm . . . I hope your engine guys know what they're doing.

DD

I agree with Lloyd on this one. 29 degrees will cause excess heat in the motor and will not yield the best numbers. I run 34 in my SD with 9.5 CR on pump premium without any issues. My cam is more radical and probably fills the cylinders better than what you are running. Get one of those up to 34-36 dgrees and you will be amazed.

BTW: They will all get better MPG's too!

Old balancer? maybe the hub slipped. Regardless of what the balancer reads with those numbers I think the timing must be close to optimal, at least for whatever gas they used for the tuning.

What do they mean by junk gas??? If it's low octane (ie: 87) then yes maybe you should move to a higher number (maybe 91 or whatever is the highest pump gas you could get) and test it at 34 DEG and see if it pings. Keep moving your timing up until you hear it detonate, then go down 1-2 degs to be safe (as you sometimes may not hear the detonation but it could still be happening)...My $0.02

I think what is meant by junk gas is low octane, no lead, ethanol added crap. I must admit the 29 degrees is a bit of a difference from what you guys are suggesting, but they do measure temp of all the cylinders and try to come up with the optimal setup.

I wouldn't say this is all Greek to me, more like Pig Latin, I understand it, but you gotta talk slow:D...DW

What cam were you running in the RA III?

Thanks

Comp Cam K51-423-9(Hyd Flat Tappet;800-4800rpm;Adv.Dur. 252 Int./Exh.;V.Lift .425 Int./Exh.;Lobe 110 deg)....DW

Great work Doc. Those will pull them old cars around pretty easy.
They do have your timing set for 87 octane safety feature.
You can go up like these guys are saying - and get some really noticeable power increase - so long as you buy better grade gas. And i'm sure you do anyway.

Now for the mild brow beating, lol.
I like the .425 lift cam on street/drivers - but I always go with split pattern (higher lift on exhaust - like factory) on unported/unflowed heads.
But you left room for 1.6 or 1.65 rockers if you ever want to monkey around some.

I'm not satisfied with the 389 numbers.
I wasn't aware they were over rated by that much margin.
I'm realizing it has smaller valves and log exhaust - but damm - and you even made some improvements plus bumped the cam.

I think it might need some attention on the deuces or the fuel delivery.
But in all - its not a race car anyway, it'll drive great with the top down.
And thats all that really matters at the end of the day.

I think you built some really nice dependable engines using good common sense without trying to go to the moon.

Thanks for sharing the data. :first:

Baron: Where have you been? You have been sorely missed.

He's been cheating on us; going to another message board to talk about - dare I say it? - imports!!! :gag:

Just kidding BVZ...

Welcome back,

Scott

Howdy Sawyer :usa2:
Hows the 70 Pepper Green IV machine doing ?

I've really missed this site. Always has been and always will be my favorite.

I told Bulletpruf what was going on when we swapped engines a while back, and to relay it to you guys if he could.

It got to where it was taking 5 to 10 minutes for a page to load/transition for me on this site (about 4-5 months ago). I got tired of that. Time has been at a premium since then too, I've been trying to get relocated.

I tried all that i knew how, to get better performance on this site, nothing was helping.
This site was the only thing on the whole internet that was doing like that for me.

To get onto Judge forum - 5 to 10 minutes, pick a thread to read - another 5 to 10 minutes to load that page, to reply - another 5 to 10 for reply box, and so on.

I'd try every so often to come on - signed in - and unsigned - same crappy slow motion.

Bulletpruf gave me a call the other day. Was good to hear from him. Scott is a good ol guy real and true. Thought I'd try some more to get use of site again.

Did another disc clean, defrag, file and cookie and history deletion. Not much better, again :censored::censored::censored: But there was a thread in TA section I wanted to post on. It took forever.

So I got really really pizzed - did the above rituals again - about 5 times in a row - and then did about 10 more defrags on top of that until nothing else would move anymore on the color chart.

After a few more posts in the TA section it started picking up decent speed again. Now its down to about what used to be normal after making some more posts. About 1-2 minutes per click. I can live with that.

They have too much behind the scenes tracking junk/cookie reading crap on this site is my theory. I have the slowest internet connection in the world at 14.4 kbps (free) but this is the only site or forum that has ever given this trouble. :mad:

Its still doing funky stuff while i type, a paragraph will disappear all of a sudden with just one touch of a key sometimes. Thank goodness for the "undo" right click option.
My VW Diesel forum doesn't have any of these hang ups, and transitions much faster. Even eBay and my Yahoo email run better than this. :confused:

Soooo..., I'm back on for now. :2cents:

ewww... import just sounds so ---- japanesey :gag:

My new driver is a finely engineered 20 year old German Diesel with only 336,000+ miles that sips fuel through a coffee straw :old:

49.5 - 52.1 mpg overall every tank.

And.... I Love It !

Welcome back BVZ, good to hear from you again.

BJ

BVZ: Sorry to hear about your computer troubles. Are you sure it's this site that causes your problems, or have you been lookin' where you shouldn't be? LOL

One correction on your post, my car is a 69, midnight green. You were very close.

I am glad an all around good guy like you with so much knowledge is back.

Hello there BJ

Sawyer, you mean you don't have a Green 70 IV Judge ? Well then get busy ! lol

The porn sites always function fine and easy :o
it was just this one giving me the trouble

Two other finished engines I picked up yesterday. The 389 is for my Maize '65 vert, the ram air III is for my '70 red auto judge.
I'd say pretty damn good numbers for the III, hard to believe that an air conditioning belt on the previous III would rob that much HP, but remember everything is hooked up. The two engines otherwise were built identically.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...enginedyno.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ngineDDyno.jpg
DW

Cool numbers, Doug
:)

I take it the 389 had that Comp Cam in it, what cam is in the RA III?

:)

I think Doug said he built them all the same as far as Cam, C/R, Balancing and hardened seats.

I'd be sweetly pleased with all the 400 and the 455 numbers.
Without ANY belts and the timing put up to 32, i bet the 400's would go 400 hp.

I'm kinda sorta bummed a little on these 389's.
Supposed to be 360 hp. Without belts, and timing bumped up to 32, maybe the Reef engine would put 360 on the sheet.

I was just expecting more. Not expecting RA3 hp match, but closer than what they did.
Am i clear in understanding these all had alt and pwr str belts in place during test ? (and Sable had a-c belt)

Very interesting data Doc. Thanks for sharing. Its about as honest of a comparison as anyone could hope for. Neat Stuff.

Doug, any thoughts why the Reef and Mayfair engines have as much spread on output ?
454tq/345hp vs. 414tq/323hp

Reef is stroked.
Other than the maize car,all other engines have the same hydraulic rollers.
Everything is hooked up on these dudes.
Should have some of these engines installed in chassis pretty quick and I'll post pics.
I've had them built to stay together, obviously there is room to play, but I'll build some others in the future to play, these are too valuable to monkey with in my opinion. DW