Warbird guys
 

I'm calling B.S. on this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...#ixzz0MaXyMQKS

Northrop built one in 1949 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-49

That's actually real, and very true. The National Geographic Channel ran a 1-hour documentary on the Horten Ho 229 (by the way, the author of the article you linked doesn't have a clue, he called it the 2-29), and they recreated the aircraft from original technical drawings, put it up on Lockheed's testing "pole" in the desert, and tested the radar signature. It was about 20% less than a typical aircraft. The design was intended to beat the English radar stations on the coast by getting close enough that the RAF would only have around 2 minutes to react, and this Horten 229 was so fast, there was no way Spitfires or Typhoons would have caught them anyway.

The more you read about the Luftwaffe secret projects, the more you realize they were years and years ahead of American and British development. The German engineers and designers were so advanced, several historians had said that when American and British designers saw (after the war) what they built, what was in process, and especially what was on the drawing board, they realized that the Germans could have easily won the war if it weren't for the ol' Adolf's incompetence.

The technology and designs from the German aircraft designers were what formed our post-war technology. The F-86 Sabre (and Soviet Mig) aircraft were lifted directly from Messerschmidt and Focke-Wulf designs that were on the drawing boards. The Messerschmidt 1101 was actually partially built when it discovered by Allied troops. It's obvious the Americans used this aircraft as the base for the F-86 Sabre. Our post-war rocket technology came straight from the V-2 program, and we used captured German scientists to develop our space program. Nuclear fission was discovered by German scientists, and they were close to developing their own A-bomb (luckily for us, Adolf's incompetence prevented its development before the end of the war), and the flying wing dates back to he 1930's gliders by the Horten Brothers in Germany. The delta wing was perfected in Germany too, and Lockheed used that technology to develop post-war aircraft.

I believe that I read that the B1 was so unstable that they had to develop computers to control it. Germany wouldn't have had the technology in 1944 to do so. Jon

The flying wing dates back to 1930's Germany. They were building gliders using flying wing and delta wing technology, and later developed for WWII. The German aircraft designers were at least 10 years more advanced than the American and British designers.

The German designers also had radio controlled V-1's that were launched from a bomber, and guided to the target by a man in the bomber. They also tested TV camera technology in a guided V-1, similar to what we saw 45 years later in Desert Storm.

If you see that National Geographic special on the building of the Ho229, the old retired Lockheed engineers had no idea that Germany built this plane in 1944. From us WWII aircraft geeks, we knew about this aircraft for the past 20 or so years.

The FW-190 fighter was also the first aircraft to use a single-yoke control. When a man went to scratch build an FW-190 a few years ago, he approached a large aircraft company about providing a possible duplicate of the Focke-Wulf design from 1943. The engineers were stunned. They had no idea that the single yoke control dated back 50+ years. They thought that it was developed in the mid-1950's by American engineers.

This is the fighter version of the Horten flying wing.

http://www.luft46.com/horten/3bhox.gif

And this is the Messerchmidt P1101. You can see how Amercian and Russian post-war aircraft development came from these Luftwaffe designs, especially the Bell experimental aircraft (taken directly from this German aircraft).

http://www.luft46.com/mess/3bm1101c.jpg

Yup. If not for a few military blunders (failure to achieve air superiority over England, attacking Russia at the end of summer, etc) WWII may have had quite a different outcome. The German engineers were brilliant and forward thinking. However, like in real life, upper management had to go and screw it up!

I second that. I have books at home that show blueprints and partially assembled planes like these. The allies won the war by shutting down Germany's resources, not by technological means.

Germany also was the first to develop synthetic oil, I believe.

They also pioneered the use of NOS. Late in the war, the allied planes were outclimbing the Messerschmitts which is a huge advantage in a dogfight. A 3-4 second shot of NOS evened the playing field but you could only do it once or you'd fry the engine. Something about pistons turning into molten lumps...

My favorite quote of WWII was from a top turret gunner on a B-17G the first time any Allied bombers encountered a small group of Me-262 fighters. The gunners and pilots of these massive formations were watching for Me109's and Fw190's. Suddenly, in came these swept wing planes, fuselages shaped like sharks, with no propellers, blazing through the bomber stacks at 500+ mph, at least 100 mph faster than anything the Americans had ever seen in the sky. The top turret gunner radioed, "What the HELL was THAT?"

The bomber crews stated they were terrified of the Me-262, partly because of its speed, but also because the Germans were using air-to-air rockets. One hit, and a 4-engined B-24 or B-17 would explode, with little chance of any survivors. The Allied commanders wisely tried to keep this information from creating widespread panic in the bomber groups, but stories from returning bomber groups fanned the flames. As scared as the Allied crews were of the Me-262, they were even more terrified of the little Me163 Komet rocket-powered fighter, which blew through formations at nearly 600 mph, while helpless P-51 Mustangs watched in disbelief. The bomber's electrically powered turrets couldn't track fast enough to get their sights on an Me163.

The only thing the P-51 and P-47 pilots could do was follow the jet and rocket fighters down to treetop level and get them while they landed or took off. Very few Me262's were shot down in combat, and those that were were usually due to an engine failure, or pilot error. Pretty amazing considering the Me262's flew at a time when the Allied-to-Axis air power balance was about 50 to 1 in favor of the Allies.

Chuck Yeager said they called the new jet fighters "bl_wjobs."

The 163 was good for one pass and that was it.Back to the wing.It never flew under it's own power.It wasn't EVER even in the same "galaxy" as a real threat.The author seems to have added a bit of "fluff" shall we say?

Horton bomber
 

It did fly in Dec of 1944. I agree with everyone it was much to late. Considering the technology of the day it was a incredible achievement. The National Geographic special showed the flights of the prototype.


http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...3#tab-Overview

The Me163 was stationed around high priority targets. While they were a menace to bombers, more Me163's were lost to ground accidents (explosions) while landing or taking off than in combat. But they terrified the Allied bomber crews. Can't say I blame them.

The Ho229 was never a threat to the overall outcome of the war, but a threat to what "could" have been if it was developed properly without the Hitler's interventions. The author of that article that Bill linked is obviously trying to drum up some interest in the National Geographic special, so it''s typical media hype to sell a product. Hitler saw no use for a bomber, whether 4-engined or otherwise, because he thought the war would be over by 1941. By the time he allowed bombers to be developed (1943), his decision came way too late to effect the war, so Germany never had a heavy 4-engined bomber. The Arado 234 jet bomber was another brilliant design that could have changed the course of the war, or at least greatly extended it, if it were built in numbers. But again, it wasn't given the green light until late in the war. HAnd another of Hitler's poor decisions was turn the Me262 fighter into a bomber that could carry two bombs, and his insistence that all bombers must dive.

Meanwhile, Allied B-17's, B-24's, and Lancasters won the war.

Also, plans were underway for an "America Bomber". The plan was to hit New York with a "dirty bomb", releasing radioactive debris over the city, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. The plan was to use a newly developed extended range bomber (Junkers), or a giant float plane that could be refueled at sea by U-boats.

The Ho229 flying wing was nothing new, as the Horten Brothers had made dozens of flights to test their theories using gliders back in the 30's, and they made several powered (propeller) flying wings. Northrop development was years behind the Germans.

Cobrabill,

There is a Horten-designed fighter in the Smithsonian restoration facility in Silver Hills,
Maryland. It was flown in 1944. That was 4yrs BEFORE Jack Northup flew the XB-35 and
the YB-49. Just because the info doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make it wrong.

Huh?Mind telling me what my opinion is?

Typical for people who've never studied WWII. We (the U.S.) had the best weapons,
the best men and the Nips and Krauts NEVER had a chance. IF you study the air war
in particular, you'll come to the conclusion it was the grace of God and American industrial capacity that won the war. As good a fighter as the P-51 was, it was still
1930's technology. Hitler's insanity and intransigence kept the ME262 out of action
until 1944. Had it available in sufficient numbers in 1943, it is debatable whether Operation Overlord would or could have taken place. The P-80 and the Meteor were
no match for the ME262. It was faster, better armed and more maneuverable. Remember,the ME262 was the the Third Reich's FIRST generation of jet fighters. The
Horten flying wing and the Focke Wulf jet fighters were second generation fighters,
decades ahead of their Allied contemporaries.

1)I've forgotton more about WWII than you'll ever know.
2)Again,i realized that when i was 10 years old
3)No-it was 40's technology.
4)Again, not a news flash.

I suggest you brush up on your comprehension.The article i linked is full of sh!t a several levels.But it also is accurate on others.One issue that is bogus is claiming it was a threat -it wasn't.German vs American advancements isn't the issue.The aircraft NEVER flew under it's own power.German heavy water experiments were a perceived threat also...NOT.

Please provide proof it never flew. I watched the National Geographic special on this plane and according to them it flew.

"The first Ho IX V1, an unpowered glider, flew on 1 March 1944. Flight results were very favorable, but there was a landing accident when the pilot attempted to land without first retracting an instrument-carrying pole extending from the aircraft. The design was taken from the Horten brothers and given to Gothaer Waggonfabrik. The Gotha team made some changes: They added a simple ejection seat, dramatically changed the undercarriage to enable a higher gross weight, changed the jet engine inlets, and added a system to carry cold air to cool the jet engine's outer casing, as the wing was made of wood.[1]

All subsequent flights and development were done by Gotha. By this time, the Horton brothers were working on the Amerika Bomber.[3]

The Horten Ho IX V1 was followed in December 1944 by the Junkers Jumo 004-powered Ho IX V2; the BMW 003 engine was preferred but unavailable at the time. Göring believed in the design and ordered a production series of 40 aircraft at Gotha with the RLM designation Ho 229 before it had taken to the air under jet power. The program was undeterred when the sole Ho IX V2 crashed after an engine caught fire on 18 February 1945 after only two hours of flying time. An order was put in for further prototypes and 20 pre-production aircraft. On 12 March 1945, the Ho 229 was included in the Jäger-Notprogramm for accelerated production of inexpensive "wonder weapons."

During the final stages of the war, the U.S. military initiated Operation Paperclip, which was an effort by the various intelligence agencies to capture advanced German weapons research, and to deny that research to advancing Soviet troops. A Horten glider and the Ho 229 V3, which was undergoing final assembly, were secured and sent to Northrop Corporation in the United States for evaluation. Northrop was chosen because of their experience with flying wings, inspired by the Horten brothers' pre-war record setting glider. Jack Northrop had been building flying wings since the N-1M in 1939."




I stand corrected.Sort of.The sole copy flew for two hours and then crashed.I suppose it flew in a "Spruce Goose" sorta way.The rest were "towed glider" flights.

In watching the National Geographic special I was amazed the Germans had the engineering knowledge to build a stealth wing in the '40's. I knew about the Me262 which I thought was an amazing aircraft for its day. To think the Germans could have had stealth technology too is just mind boggling. Good thing Hitler had poor decision making.

[QUOTE=rexus31 Good thing Hitler had poor decision making.[/QUOTE]To that note....i was watching a show on snipers.We diecided to NOT send a team after Hitler as his presence would HASTEN the end of war.

German technological superiority is rarely challenged. A very good comparison I've studied would be the German technology in 1944 versus American VOLUME, not unlike the USSR's approach to the "Cold War". "Win by attrition" was the philosophy. For every Tiger tank "killed" 20 Shermans were. But... There were 30 Shermans "in the field" for every Tiger, so if "we" could stand the "losses", we WOULD eventually win. And that's exactly how it "played out".

First P-51s were flown in 1938. First combat units arrived in England in 1940. Definitely "1930s" developed, but as with current fighter aircraft, they were "leading edge" and therefore "next generation" stuff. So, the argument could be made either way. Many aircraft experts consider Mustang the most advanced propeller-driven fighter of all time. Others "like" the Bearcat. Still others like the FW-190. All three were WAY PAST anything else. Too bad more FWs weren't "salvaged". They could have been great pilon racers, too! LOVE the sound of those radial engines! And if one looks closely at the cowl of the FW, the aerodynamics are startling. No other radial-equipped plane was quite so "clean", including Bearcat. Bearcat, like F-4 "Phantom II", was an exercise in strapping enough power to an airframe to make it MORE than "competitive". It never saw combat, though, as it arrived at the end of the war.

In March of 1945, according to Admiral Doenitz (sp?) in his book "The German Navy in WWII", said they successfully test-launched a V-2 from a submarine. The implications of THAT are far more "reaching" than a long-range bomber. Had they attacked New York or Washington D.C. from right off the coast, the entire outcome could also be in question, not unlike the German failure to invade and "take" England when they had the chance. England simply became an "unsinkable" aircraft carrier, which in the long run, was the undoing of the German "war machine". Of course, the actual military value of the V-2 was limited, but the phsychological aspect of American cities blowing up would have been devastating to the "untouchable" attitude of the American public. Another few months and V-3 might have been on subs, shooting at all the American coastal cities. V-3 is another than never saw combat. It was larger and FAR more "accurate" than V-2. NASA used them in the early days for testing.

I was a WWII "buff", too!

Jim

Quick question for you guys.
If Germany developed (and sort of flew) a stealth type plane in 1944? Then why did it take another 35 years for the US to start developing our own?
Didnt we think think it was something we might want to develope?
Just curious....

Jim,

I hate to disagree but the first N.A.73(what became the P-51) didn't fly until 26 Oct 1940. Service deliveries to the RAF(original customer) began in October,1941. AAF
first flight was the A-36A variant in September,1942(I own a preliminary flight manual for this aircraft). The first Merlin conversion flew on 13 October 1942. The first P-51Bs
reached England for AAF service in the winter of 1943.
Cobrabill, care to place a bet on that? You're HOW old? One of the first books I read
on WWII was Albert Speer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" That was in 1971(age8)
How many of YOUR uncles served in WWII (4 of mine)? How many of YOUR friends
flew combat missions in WWII (3 of mine)? How MANY P-51s and P-47s have you
crewed(1 of each for me)? NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!!! Technologically speaking, the
P-51 is no different than the ME 109, the Spitfire or the FW190.
They ALL incorporate fabric-covered control surfaces, engines originally developed in
the EARLY 1930's and monocoque construction pioneered by Jack Northorp while working
for Lockheed in the EARLY 1930's. Son, you're dealing with not ONLY an aircraft mechanic but an amateur avaition historian.
GTO Mike, after the debacle of the YB-49, the USAF abandoned ALL flying wing research
until the 1960's with the "lifting" body research aircraft. In 1981, Jack Northorp, designer
and developer of the XB-35 and the YB-49, was allowed to see the preliminary design
work for what became the B-2 Spirit. "This is why God has allowed me to live so long!"
Northorp is reported to have exclaimed after seeing that his "flying" wing design had
been incorporated.

How many relatives of yours were ACTUALLY members of the Third Reich?

How many hours do you have in the following:

B-17G(include "right seat time")
B-24
B-25
Here's a clue: www.collingsfoundation.org

And i have been up in a Mustang,Crewed a Mark X Spit and the only airworthy Hurricane in the country.
My x GF father flew out of Chelveston England.305BG,365th BS.

You do have your facts straight on the Mustang.

Anyone have a copy of MS Combat Flight Simulator 3?
Its been awhile since I used it but I think that 229 is in the program to
use & fly.

Germans were smarter, we just out produced them
and had more natural resources.
Plus they were instantly "surrounded" as soon as
they picked on Russia, Bad move for them, Lucky for us.

Bill,

So you worked for Kermit Weeks? Wasn't it a LONG commute to Florida? I am very
familiar with the Collins Foundation. I've donated money and my former employer,
Stevens Aviation, did avionics work for the Foundation. As far as the Third Reich,NONE!!
Uncle Dave was captured at Bastogne, Uncle Maurice was a writer for "Stars and Stripes" who actually knew Bill Mauldin, Uncle "Buster" was in the Pacific and "reuped"
during Korea and Uncle Jody was Corp of Engineers.So, you're "signed off" by the
FAA to fly the -17G, -24 and the -25? Steve Hinton,Jr. are you? Yes, I have met Yeager. He's one fun guy!!

At the time(15+ years ago),"being rated" was not a requirement for getting some right seat time(as long as the left seat was occupied & qualified(duh).I wish i was"type rated".But the FAA & Homeland security put an end to that.This was B-17G only.Been up a couple three times in the 24 & 25.I'll take the 909 any day.

Kermit Weeks has nothing to do with the Collings Foundation.

To all,Homeland security is trying to put an end to ALL Warbird flights.Please visit the Collings Foundation website to see what you can do to help.

When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, it brought America into both theaters of war. Many German generals stated privately that even at that time (Dec 1941), they knew Germany was doomed. They were well aware of the massive production capability of the U.S.

German aircraft factories were getting pounded by Allied bombers after 1943. What puzzled the Allies was that even with round the clock bombing in 1944, German aircraft production increased. What the Allies didn't know was that the German method of production was involve hundreds of sub-contractors, from small tool & die businesses to furniture makers, they all made parts and pre-assembled them. So if an aircraft factory was bombed, they could easily shift production (assemby actually) to another location. This method of sub-contractors and pre-assembly was later used on the B-17 and B-29, and of course in the production of American cars after the war. It greatly sped up the production process, and one bomb wouldn't bring the assembly line to a halt.

The FW190A was my favorite piston engined aircraft of the war. Just a beautiful design, and very advanced. I also liked the later D series with the extended snout.

The fastest piston engined aircraft of the war was the Dornier Do335, that odd twin engined pusher/puller setup with the tricycle undercarriage, although it never saw combat. Late model P-47N's were the fastest U.S. aircraft.

If you get a chance, watch the old "Wings Of The Luftwaffe" series. The episode on the Me262 was fantastic. One of my favorite things on the Me262 was the innovative flaps that slipped down automatically (on roller bearings) when the plane fell below 170 mph, and that made it stable for landing. Without those automatic flaps, the landing speed would have been far too great to allow a landing on a standard airfield.

Also, check out the little "dash" that appears in each of the two engine's nosecones. For years I wondered what those were. They are pull handles to manually start the jet engine, just like a pull start on a lawnmower.

It's great there are other WWII aircraft nuts on this site! We went through the Dayton Air Force Museum after the POCO/GTOAA show, and spent all day there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-z64G3tvU


The P-47J was the first piston powered Aircraft to exceed 500 MPH in level flight

hurry,

If you intend to banter with Bill, I hope you brought a lunch... My statements are best from memory of a fairly recent "History Channel" ditty on the Mustang. I COULD have the dates mixed up, but I know they were NOT a major part of The Battle of Britain. Spitfire gets most of the "glory", but Hurricane was the "workhorse". Merlin changed the whole character of the plane. One of my dad's WWII buddies was a P-51 pilot. I recall some of his stories. He too, had the utmost respect for the FW.

Another, a member of The Eagle Squadron, drafted into the US military, was flying the P-51B. They took delivery of the "D" and went up for a test flight. While they were up, an alarm came down about some German twin-engined bombers headed "in". They were armed, so they got the call. He was in the rear flight, and saw the circus unfold. The front flight all poured the throttle at the same time. They hadn't put the new engine through any "paces" yet, so were not ready for the rush of torque. He said it was one of the funniest things he ever saw, four Mustangs doing involuntary rolls "in unison". They learned immediately, apply the throttle SLOWLY... (:-

Mike,

The only part of the Air Force Museum at Wright-Pat that I felt "lacking" was planes from elsewhere. They have at least one of each USAAC or USAF plane ever used, but no Navy or foriegn stuff. If you're ever in Tucson, the Pima Air Museum is incredible! They have LOTS of "other" stuff, as well as the air force planes. The even have a NEW Norden on display. Pop was a bombsight tech on B-17s and B-24s out of Watton, England. The only stories HE told were about women and drinking. When "pressed" about the war, he, like most combat vets, didn't really wanna talk about it. Mom told me about a couple incidents he was involved in, where people were killed. He and I were watching the History Channel one afternoon, about the air war. I said "I sure am in awe of what you guys had to do!" His response? "Me too..." It was like a different life. How he could put it all behind him is beyond me!


Tom Hanks said it best about our parents. "The greatest generation ever. They did nothing less than save the world!"

One story about the US entry into the war. On december 11, 1941, Hitler declared war on the US. Half of his general staff quit right then and there. When he asked them "Why?" One of them said "You've never been there. I have. You can't beat those people." Not unlike Yamamoto's famous "quote". Foreign leaders that had never visited the US, had no idea, the sheer size and breadth of our country, and the resolve instilled in "the people". Whether or not this is a real incident, I can't say. Mein frau (Rosie is a "[green] card carrying" German) says she was told that in elementary school.

All this talk about "the jug" (P-47), why were they never popular in pilon racing? Just curious, not challenging. Bearcat and Mustang seem to be completely dominant. I must have built models of "the jug" 10 or more times. Most certainly a GREAT aircraft.

Jim

Generals in Korea wanted the JUG instead of the Mustang.
Most kills by aircraft type belongs to the Jug.
Best ground attack aircraft of the war-JUG
THe Jug could out dive any plane in the skies in WWII with the POSSIBLE exception of the 262.

A couple of years ago, the last Peruvian JUG was here at AMARC.I tried to find it-no luck.

THe "J" variant was a Jug that went to Jenny Craig.It weighed about 2000lbs less than other variants.THere's your reason.And only one or two"J'S" were made.

Jim,

We had alot of problems with new pilots in the P-51D I crewed. More than once, a
"ham-fisted" pilot nearly "ground-looped" her from opening the throttle too fast. "Honey's" engine was built by Mike Nixon @ Vintage V-12s. Nothing special...
-3 bottom end,transport banks and heads and a shaved supercharger that developed
120ins of manifold pressure. Mike said if you could get it on a dyno, the engine would
put out in excess of 3,000hp but the rod and main bearings would probably fail if you
ran the engine for more than five minutes. We also had a P-47D. That bird was a trip!!
Mr. Osborn, the owner, sold a beautiful -5 Corsair to obtain the -47 from France.
It took 5yrs for hard work to restore her. The day we started the engine for the first
time, "BigAssBird" pulled her tiedown out of the ground at half-throttle! We didn't even
reinstall the turbo. No one would overhaul it!!

Bill,

Kemit used to own the Hurricane of which you speak. Weeks is an INTERESTING fella!
I've been involved with warbirds since 1983.

I'm reluctant to believe that the world would have been different if they (germans) would have had that 'stealth' bomber back then, if that would imply that the germans actually had 'won' the war....which would never had happen anyway. SURE, it would have brought a new angle into the war that would put the germans on a gain over the other 'forces', but it would at most 'stalled' the end of the war a bit, or it just might had ended earlier as I have no doubt there would have been an even 'harder' approach to end the war at that moment in time.....IF that would imply counter measures by use of nuclear weapons, is anybody's guess, but so is any 'theory' based on IF and IF.
Thankfully, it never happened. The east coast might have looked very different if the germans would have succeeded in stealth bombing f.e. new york or washington.......
there is no doubt in my mind however, that it actually could have 'rescued' them. It would have only brought bigger counter measures against them....

As far as 'why' it took 35 years since then for the US to bring up a stealth bomber.....
...who said the US did not have stealth technology BEFORE the gulf war? Either the B2 or the Nighthawk were 'created' or in 'working capacity' long before they were 'discovered' by media or 'presented' to the world. There is more then just the new 'joint strike fighters' behind the scenes.....we all know that, deep in our mind.

The US could flatten out all excistence of IRAQ in a matter of days. But having that power, does not mean it is actually put to use....

It's like having a big-block, big-muscle, muscle car. You might have ALL the power in the world under that hood....but how many times have you EVER used ALL of its potential? It's just nice to have it.

BTW there are far more N*zi-tools out there that would blow our minds that we'll never learn of, or possibly at some point in time.....you can call it impressive, but concidering it's either research & develop or DIE, AND all income was invested in this, I can't say its surprising that the Na*i's had such 'impressive' or 'advanced' 'weapons of war'.
Imagine the kind of technology and 'inventions' would be made if the same effort & money could be put in research & development in the present....weapons of war or not.....

but thats just my opinion....

"Stealth" as applied to this article is a pretty broad term; just like "speed". For instance, at one time a "fast" factory street car would run 16's, but now that is pretty tame. Sure, there may have been "stealth" attributes to this German wing, but it hardly compares to the performance of even the F-117, which itself is crude and outdated compared to current aircraft. Given all the possible technologies available to exploit to gain a combat advantage- speed, performance, range and weapons load were all ahead of stealth in the list of desired traits. Why, because developing and maintaining effective stealth in an ever evolving threat environment is hard, and it is expensive. We're into stealth these days because we've run out of the "easy" things to do to avoid a threat.

The 'Cane was on it's way to Chino(i think)with the Mark X.They had a fuel stop at Avra valley airport.They twisted my arm to assist.I didn't relaize who owned it untill you told me.Interesting is a mild term.

I almost forgot one lady.I flew on her last flight in the states.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVVQW...om=PL&index=22

Mike, I watched the series and the repeats whenever possible.

"Also, check out the little "dash" that appears in each of the two engine's nosecones. For years I wondered what those were. They are pull handles to manually start the jet engine, just like a pull start on a lawnmower."

The little rings started "starter motors" then the jet engines were started from them.

Bill,

I'm with you, give me 909 anyday. I flew on her from Greeneville, SC to Cahrlotte, NC. I was privledged to fly with Robert "Dusty" Hoffman, the pilot who flew her in the ET back in 45. When they gave him the yoke, I could see him lovingly caressing it, like you would your best girl (get your minds out of the gutter guys). In the sense he was very gentle with her.

He in the back row third one fron the left.

Uh, perhaps because it's an AIR FORCE Museum? :confused:
Did ANYONE get a picture of the XB-70 at Wright Patterson Field? Please???

There's a Hurricane out at Chino? My business partner is a volunteer out there (works on/drives the Sherman & Stuart tanks, not the planes) and he's never mentioned a Hurricane.

I remember standing under the Valkyrie back in the early 1970's, when it was parked outside at the Wright Air Force Museum. Have pictures somewhere, even some old Super 8mm film...

For those that haven't been the Dayton Museum, it's by far the largest air museum in the country, and VERY well done, from dioramas to huge informational displays. They recently added a 5th building to house more aircraft. Their restorations are top notch, and everything is very well presented. Best part is it's free admission, free parking. You can spend all day there. Hundreds of aircraft to see. Their P-47 and P-38 they have are spectactular. The "jug" is just flat out cool, and I prefer them to P-51's. They could take an enormous amount of punishment, were very powerful, and were as roomy as a Cadillac. I always thought of the Mustang as a thoroughbred horse, the Thunderbolt is a bull.

Apologies to you Navy boys, but this IS an AIR FORCE MUSEUM! They have a great Luftwaffe display, and a great array of Cold War aircraft, a great WWI area, and of course the current warbirds, like the B-1, B-2, F117, B-52, etc. They even have an F-105 Thunderchief from the Wild Weasels...

Some more pics! (L to R) :

The Jumo004 engine from the Me262, they have a full engine displayed as a cutaway.
The German R4 air-to-air rocket
The coolest engine of the war : the R-2800
The huge cannon that was tested in the nose of an Me262. This thing was so wicked looking, Goering (at Nuremburg) denied having any part of it when he was shown a photo. This thing would take out a bomber with one shell, but it was intended as a tank buster.

Forgot to address Bill's comment. He's absolutely right. When I said "the Do335 was the fastest piston-engined aircraft of the war", I was still referring to German aircraft. The Germans sort of abandoned piston-engined advancements by the end of 1944 because they were so far advanced in their jet and rocket development.

[QUOTE=67blackcherry;There's a Hurricane out at Chino? My business partner is a volunteer out there (works on/drives the Sherman & Stuart tanks, not the planes) and he's never mentioned a Hurricane.[/QUOTE]
At the time,it was on it's way there.THis was years ago.Coulda just been for a show.

Since we've gone off track here, I will say that our taste in aircraft is pretty much in lockstep. The P-47 and P-38 vie for top billing in my favorites list (but as a Lockheed guy, the Lightning holds a special place for me). Both were unfairly overshadowed by the Mustang. My "dream hangar" also includes a FW-190 and the F7F.

I once saw a picture of a dirt field filled with P-38s, gear up, stacked 3 high for as far as the eye could see. There were hundreds of them, available for $1400 each. I'd love to see that picture again, yet not really...

Yes, I've seen those post war graveyards, and it's hard to believe how those planes were melted down to make baby carriages and bed frames. What an unceremonious way to end the lives of those planes that saved the world....

I love the P-51D and what those planes did to win the war, but there's something about the P-38 and P-47 that I've always admired. The toughness and speed of the P-47, and the elegance and innovativeness of the P-38.

By the way, I thought this was an interesting comment on how America used to be. When the P-47 was going into full production, they needed to move the main plant away from the coast for fear of a bombing attack. They selected Indiana as the location. From the time the first shovel hit the ground, to building this enormous factory, the first P-47's were rolling off the line in 6 MONTHS. Think about that. If they ran things in 1943 the way they do in 2009, they would have been bickering about contracts, unions, taxpayer funding, lobbyists, and the first P-47 would have rolled off the line in 1959, with German markings of course, because we would have lost the war.

Off the subject here also, but I sighted a B-17 being trailed closely by a P-51 on Monday evening in Michigan City, IN.
They were quite low, not much higher than 3,000-4,000 feet in my estimation.
Headed in a southwesterly direction.

Nah, the factory would never have been built what with Environmental Impact Reports and lawsuits over the red legged horny toad and their diminishing habitat

Chino Air Museum is a great facility as well with most of the planes on disply still airworthy. A few years back they used to roll one or two out once a month and put on a aerial disply. I'm not sure if they still do that. My dad and I went for the P-38/Zero demo and the Jug demo. Very cool. The modern fighters are awesome but there's just something about the WWII vintage aircraft that's special. I'd rather watch a formation of P-47's fly over vs. a formation of F-16's.

A couple of years back the POCI National was in Ontario, CA. One of the outings was to the Chino Air Museum where they had dinner in one of the hangers and an opportunity to have you car photgraphed alongside a P-51D. Here's mine:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...hino062006.jpg

I am fully aware it's AIR FORCE museum...(:- I just like a bit of "varitety". I missed the German planes, though. No literature or displays were pointed out. Perhaps my visit was before that display was complete?

I believe many of the planes from the old Ontario museum (gone so they could expand the airport...) went to the Chino museum. At one time in Ontario, they had three functioning B-17s, which were used filming the TV show "12 O'clock High". I remember seeing a "G" model there once, too.

Falcon Field in Mesa, Arizona, is another great place to see old planes. The "Confederate Air Force" is based there. They sell "rides" in a B-25 Mitchell. They HAVE a B-29, and "word" is they're trying to get it "flight ready". I would LOVE to hear that thing take off!

P-38? Awesome plane, too! Fast, but took "3 states" to make a turn "at speed"...

Any Air Cobra fans? Black Widows? The "list" of old planes that are beyond "cool" can go on for hours...(:-

F7F was mentioned. I've seen Wildcats, Hellcats, Bearcats and Panthers, what was the "7"?

Jim

Grumman Tigercat. It's a twin radial job with a narrow fuselage.
Kalamazoo Air Musium has one that is airworthy.
When they have air shows, they have a feature called "Six Cats" all in formation:
Wildcat, Hellcat, Tigercat, Bearcat, Panther, Tomcat.

I like the Air Cobras for their unique layout. I've heard they have balance quirks with that mid-engine though.

Great picture!
I'm a Republic guy, cause Dad was a Thud pilot. I love the Jug, the Thud, and the A-10. Thing about Republic planes, they could take a beating and still get the pilot home. Growing up in Las Vegas, our neighbor was a corporate pilot for the MGM Grand back in the 70s, he said he and his buddies would buy P-51, Corsairs, etc in the early 50s for maybe a grand, and that was for the really clean ones.

Maybe a grand...:oogle: