LS1/LT1 or 462?
 

Which do you guys think I should do? I have to get a new block since mine is a 78 so it's not the best platform to start with. I plan on driving my car every day so reliability is a factor. What would be the best bang for my buck in power? I heard an LT1 is an easy swap because the mounts are standard 350 mounts. Looking for about 450 or so rwhp. I might sell the car kinda soon and I know LS1's double the value of anything they touch. :rolleyes:

LT1 is a complete waste of time.

LS1 is the most bang for the buck. Either way ls1 or 462 you're going to spend some dough for 450 net hp.

i don't think the ls1 will double the value. shoot, they're already dated (1997-2004). if you want an injected crate engine, get the ls3. i think the 'bang for the buck' is in the big inch carb motor.

At 450hp the pontiac is gonna be the fastest street motor; most torque. My 78' XX block left little to be desired from a 400 block.

Whats the LS going for now? The LS was gonna cost me alot, I considered it, but stayed with pontiac for my firebird. I really liked what I saw in the LS series engine desighns, but it was gonna be a few grand just to get one before all the machine work and aftermarket parts. Consider that; other than an iron truck block, an newer V8 Camaro, V8 Firebird, GTO, or Vette had to be a donor, or it had to be new. The quotes where at 3k or so before work. For that I got a '70 400+.030 with Milodon 4-bolts, eagle rods, KB fordged pistons, and all ARP bolts, and balanced for about 2k or so + all I had alll the original pontiac stuff already in my car.

The LT1 woulda been a good choice for me to; I was interested in winding it out for road courses. They're good for high revs and cheaper parts. Didn't quite have all the virtues to make me want to put a chevy between the fenders of my 'bird.

I chose to stay pontiac. Up to you really. Let me know what you find out.

LSX engine compared to Pontiac Iron..

LSX= Cheaper, lighter, more fuel efficient, more reliable, longer living, much better design, more performance choices.

Pontiac= torque, under hood appeal, classic exhaust note.

L98 heads flow I believe 310 cfm out of the box and a set costs half of one out of the box aluminum Pontiac head that flows much less. Just one little example..

Flame away.

you think the LSX is cheaper with all of the fuel injection electronics? or are you talking about adding the distributor and carb/intake?

I have an LT powered 94 Z28 so I would definitely say no to that thing (although I can smoke my friends 75 Ta). Ls is a good motor for a smallblock and can smoke most old school musclecars that is if no aftermarket parts are used on the old stuff. The factory just put good heads on the LS motor thats why they run more than anything. 450 hp is not hard to achieve in any of these motors though nowadays.The EFI appeal is understandable being already factory equipped and having decent milage. Myself I still would keep it pontiac powered though just my opinion.Being a die hard pontiac engine guy, only the efi keeps me from putting one in the camaro lol.

Yes with everything "turn key" ready to go.

Here is an example of a 525 hp ls3 ready to put into a car.

To build a proper Pontiac, starting from scratch with whatever block/stroke you wanted, to make an engine equal to the LS3 I linked to would cost all of 12 grand and more once induction, spark, and accessories were accounted for. When I say proper I mean no cast crap inside and aluminum heads, just like the LS.

http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com/E...8&key=packages

It's hard not to notice what they're doing with the LS these days. As much as I love a Pontiac engine, kind of hard not to seriously consider what else you can get for your money. Let's face it, building a proper Pontiac engine is down right expensive.

Ok so thinking about this a little more maybe you could do the Pontiac for a tad less money but then again maybe not. Either way it's very close and in the end the LS leaves you with so much more from a pure results stand point. Imagine an all aluminum all forged 6.5-7k redline monster prowling around in a constant state of perfect tune getting 20 mpg on low octane and weighing hundreds of pounds less.

If you're not a numbers matching kind of guy what the heck isn't to like?

Take it one step further and plop your a-body shell onto one of these and you've just brought that old hunker Pontiac into the modern world of performance.

http://www.streetrodgarage.com/abody.aspx

Ok thanks guys, I am just having a hard time finding a 400 or 455 block. I guess I could try the junkyard Sunday. Where do you guys buy your engines from? Do y'all just get lucky on craigslist?


I figure if I can get a good deal on an LSX I will do that. Also 525 hp from an LS motor is fairly easy, there are a ton of guys in the GTO and G8 world that just slap a magnacharger on and call it a day. They hold up great.

Good luck with your Sunday hunt (I love the occasional junkyard trip). Usually I have one thing in mind when I head to the junkyard, but often I'm surprised at what other cool stuff I find.

Do avoid the LT1s. They only put them in Vettes (1992-1997)and F-bodies (1993-1998). While a lot of parts carry over from the previous generation, it has some specific parts that are getting harder to find and expensive. For example, lots of problems with the Optispark distributor (of which I was also a victim), and the water pump setup (specific because of the reverse rotation).

On the other hand, LSX (depending on application), can be easily found complete and with an overdrive trans relatively inexpensive. They are very responsive to camshaft and exhaust upgrades. Plus if you get the aluminum block ones (some trucks are cast iron), you'll looking at about 450lbs total engine weight. As for doubling the value of anything they touch, don't think so.

If you're planning to sell soon, best to stay all Pontiac. You'll have a lot more suitors.

Is this a good block?

76 400 w/rotating assy; part#481988,date 6/29/73, code X4

i don't think you should only look at the max hp. the poncho will give more power under the curve and you won't have to spin to 7k to get it. the ls motors don't like low octane gas, either. i don't like putting 91 in mine, but that's the best in cali (besides race gas, of course). i do like the injection motors being 'easy' to start and go, but if one thing doesn't work, you may not go at all. at least with a carb you have a better chance of being able to limp home and have an easier fix, but that's the classic 'injection vs. carb debate' that's never going to end! i think if you find the right parts, you can have a built poncho for 8-9 grand, depending on what accessories you already have. just for comparison, my '09 vette with a ls3/6-speed stick is a blast to drive, but isn't faster (in the quarter mile, not top speed) or stronger than my camaro's 383 with 395hp (at the wheel) and fuel injection is not as responsive as a properly tuned ignition/double pumper with sticky tires and high stall converter, imho. granted, the gas mileage will suck when compared to the injected motor! there's just alot to think about here...

I lean towards the "prefer to see a real Pontiac engine in a classic" side, but to be fair to LSX engines, I'd like to clear a few things up.

They run all day on premium 91, and can run ok on even lower octane but with a slight loss in performance. Even with their high compression ratio, the aluminum block and heads, modern combustion chambers (mixture motion), fuel injection, coil-on-plug, and wide LSA make the engine very detontation tolerable on pump gas without sacrificing performance.

Maybe an arguement for aftermarket (or really old OEM - maybe you meant to put the ' in front of the word classic?) systems, but late model electronics have several limp home modes built into their systems. If there's a malfunction, depending on the type, it will go into limp home mode and still allow the vehicle to be driven.

As example, even on a drive-by-wire, if the throttle can't be actuated, the car can be driven. The throttle is mechanically "parked" in a part throttle position, so that some airflow is present. Then using injection and ignition timing, mild acceleration is possible to get the vehicle to a service station.

Another example, is something that cannot be done with a carbed engine. On an LSX, if your cooling system fails, the engine may still run for a short time. There is a limp home mode that alternates cylinder firings, to limit engine heat and allow the car to get to a service station under it's own power.

The LSX engines have also proven extremely reliable even when built to put out much more power than they had from the factory. One reason they continue to be a popular swap these days.

And for the same money, you could find a used LSX engine with trans, modify it to the same power levels, and swap it in. The difference being you now have the overdrive, and EFI.

Keep in mind, the vette is drive-by wire. Just because you put your foot to the floor does not mean the throttle follows the same. How the engine responds depends on how it's calibrated. An OEM doesn't want a driver to blow the tires loose at 30mph and cause an accident. They'll bring the power on in a way that the car can handle traction-wise. They also may pull back power due to torque limitations on other drivetrain parts, such as the transmission. And removing peak jumps in torque gives the driver a linear acceleration feel. Look at some of the newer turbo gas engines, and you'll typically see a perfectly flat curve from across a wide range. That's not soley based on the combination of parts, but the calibration.

On these two aspects I agree 100%.

Put a 'REAL PONTIAC' engine in it! You can build a 550 HP and 575/600 TQ that will get you the RWHP that you want and it won't cost $8-9 K if you shop around for a 'good' block, crank, rods, pistons, etc. The Pontiac 462 will KILL the LS1 or LSX for what you are wanting to do, if you make it hook of course.

Nothing against the LS1 or LSX engines, they just belong in a Chevy, not a Pontiac...........period. That is like inbreeding, not cool. If you must go with a 'corporate' engine, get rid of the Pontiac and buy you a Chevy.

JMHO and yes, I am biased...........I am a PONTIAC PURIST!

Good luck with your project/build.

JMack

Is there any guides that show exactly what parts are used? Can I use my 6x heads and what needs to be done to them? Just take them to a machine shop and ask for ____?

I keep forgetting the way Pontiac Engines work, 450-500rwtq should be plenty for a street car to get to highschool and back and it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg right? I mean that's only like 150rwtq over stock.

Hey guys how much power would I pick up having the heads done and how much roughly would it cost?

only 150rwtq? some cars don't even make that.

Purchase this book, (How To Build Max Performance Pontiac V-8's, by Jim Hand) and it will tell you all you need to know about building a performance Pontiac motor you are looking for. Also in the back of the book are proven engine builds with specs from Pontiac engine builders, who some frequent this site.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Perf.../dp/1884089674

It is a very good book that all Pontiac enthusiast should have. It shows what parts to use and how to modify and tune, etc.

Mark

I think the LS stuff is cool and if you are wanting wow factor then that is one thing, but there is no way in the world that you will get bang for the buck out of that. I built a KRE headed, hyd roller 461 that makes over 550 hp for 6k starting with nothing. It also has over 600 ft lbs of torque. Try to get that with a 6.2. I also have driven it thousands of miles and it run cool in traffic and gets 18 mpg with a 5 speed.

You need to look at b-mans thread about putting an LS1 in a 64 Tempest. You are in for a heck of a project to get that in there and all hooked up. I would say on top of that 12k for the motor, your going to need another 1k for power steering and AC, then you will need different clutch and hydraulic throwout because none of you stock stuff will work. Thats another 1k, or you will need an automatic which will need work to handle the power. Thats also probably 1k. Custom driveshaft, 2-4 hundred. All the mounts and headers, exhaust work etc.

I would say it would be hard to get it done for less that 15k if you did it all yourself and ended up with 450 rwhp and less torque that the 461/462.

LS9 :D

That is impressive. Will you please share with us what parts were used and how you accomplished the build so affordably?

I got my heads from KRE early on and I think I paid about $2400 for them, I also got the cam and lifters and timing chain from them that was like $800. I picked up a 67 model 400 out of a bonne for $150 and a stroker kit from summit for $1600. I think I had about $600 in machine work to get the block where I wanted it. So that is about $5500. By the time I got the oil pump, BOP gear, gasket set, valve covers, pushrods, etc., I had close to 6000 in it.

I actually did have the RPM intake, carb, HS rockers, HEI, hooker headers, and oil pan so I didn't count that. There was definitely room to save some money from what I did, but you could also spend alot more if you had to pay someone to assemble it and all that.

Yes, please share your list of parts and services and their associated costs. That 6K figure has my interest piqued, I was wondering how you were able to do a nice build like that for so cheap. :confused:

The aluminum heads complete, roller cam & valvetrain setup alone must have killed half of that 6K.

EDIT:I see you didn't count your induction ($600?), oil pan ($250?), rocker arms ($200?), HEI distributor ($200?) or headers ($500?). Nor did you pay for the engine assembly, that makes the 6K figure a lot easier to swallow. Add in my estimates for those items and you have closer to 8K in it.

In the case of my 430 HP 376-cube LS3, it came completely assembled and ready to run for $6,400 including shipping with a 2 year 24K-mile warranty. I still had to buy headers to replace the exhaust manifolds ($620) and an oil pan ($450) so it would fit my chassis. I was able to sell the OEM cast aluminum pan for $160, so my total oil pan cost was a little less than $300.

I could have bought a GM controller and harness for $900 that is necessary to make it run with a manual trans. Instead I chose to run an electronic overdrive auto trans and spent $1700 on a custom controller and harness that will control the engine and trans together and give me cruise control and control the cooling fans, fuel pump, etc. I could have gone cheaper using a modified factory harness, but I spent more and bought the best instead.

Right now I'll have about 450 HP (430 HP engine plus headers). With a simple cam and spring change ($600?) it would easily make 500+ HP, the LS3 engine comes with 320-330 CFM intake ports. Plus the 150# weight savings over an iron-block Pontiac V8 with aluminum heads helps even things up a little too, a bit less weight of it's own to move.

The added cost of the electronics to run the EFI makes it a little more pricey, but not by much over a Pontiac V8. The need for fuel system mods for either engine choice is pretty much a wash, any V8 street car with a 450+ HP engine will need some good money spent on a fuel system ($500?).

So the cost of running the EFI all-aluminum LS-series engine comes out about the same compared to nice aluminum head Pontiac engine. A little more for a cam change in the LS-series engine and the HP is pretty much equal between the two.

For an extra thousand dollars or two at the most you can run the modern EFI engine that's lighter and has very comparable power to the older V8s.

It all depends on what you like.

I like both choices. ;)

Trey, you're in the Houston area, right?

If so contact Skip Fix on this board, he can help you in person get the right set up for your car.

We have a plethora of members in your area that would be willing to help locate the parts you need. Plus then you'd meet a great group of people to hang out with.

There definitely are some hidden costs there. My oil pan is the stocker and the headers were the 1-5/8 hookers ($100) and the HEI is a junk yard jewell. So there really is not that much outside the intake and carb. I got the RPM off ebay for 125 new and I built the carb for 300. So really it isn't anywhere near 8k. But like you said, if I had to pay to have it all done it would be much more.

But...if you had to pay to have all that LS3 swap that you are doing figured out and installed, I venture to say you would probably double your project cost. So I still say that going with a stroked version of the engine the car came with is a far easier and cheaper way to get to the power level you are looking for.

Like B-man said though, you would have a more reliable, more economical combo with the LS deal.

You might be able to go to a carbureted LS3 and save lots of bucks. Then later you could do all the electronics and put the injection back on it if you wanted. I think the intake is about 1k and a carb would be 4-7 hundred depending on what you want. I always thought that would be a pretty cool way to do it.

My swap is a little involved, but it's really not much more than locating the new engine mounts and drilling some holes, installing a new EFI-ready fuel tank & 3/8" fuel line and putting in the engine harness and controller. I easily could have hooked up the new headers to my old 2-1/2" exhaust that was still in perfect shape.

It took a bit of beating and banging to get my choice of transmission to fit, but that's no different from and in fact much easier than getting a TKO 6-speed into one of these cars no matter what engine it's bolted to. Any good manual or auto overdrive trans conversion costs a bit of money and usually involves some hacking.

Don't let the fact that I decided to do a lot of restoration on this car skew your thinking about how much work and expense goes into swapping in the LS3. The time I have into the actual engine swap really isn't really very much.

The body recieved a fair amount of work including floor and window rust repair plus new body to frame mounts. The aftermarket A/C install along with all new front & rear suspension and brakes plus a new rear end make it seem like a lot is going on to get that engine in there, but none of that really needed to be done.

If I had just pursued a pure engine swap only, I'd be done already and left with a much thicker wallet.

If our PY do-it-your-selfer's here all paid someone else to do their project labor we'd all have 100 to 200K into our cars. I didn't have to spend time putting my engine together, so that's a plus that freed up a little extra time to spend on the swap instead. Restoring one of these old warriors or rebuilding/updating the mechanicals is a lot of work no matter what engine you decide to use.

Just bolting in a new Pontiac V8 is waaay easier for sure. That's the way I did it the first time around, but with a budget-built $2500 455 that I cut a lot of corners on. I really liked it like that, I had a total of $3500 in the entire drivetrain including a new radiator and exhaust system. All stock stuff mixed and matched, I was happy with 350 HP and 10 MPG city and 13 MPG highway. I had to be, that was all I could afford back then.

For the next incarnation I wanted the advantage of 150 to 200 pounds less weight over the front wheels and better fuel mileage. This will be a 25 MPG car on the highway and will corner a lot better with less front end weight. With cruise control for added comfort on long trips too. :)

Big factors that helped me make up my mind to do the extra work and spend a little more money.

You'll ruin your T/A by putting a Chevy in it. The 455 is the way to go. If you have or can get a 400, put a stroker in it for 455 ci.

I disagree with that.

It's only ruined if it never goes back to all Pontiac. While he's the owner and enjoying the car why not put an all aluminum motor in it and have some fun.

I personally know of 4 69 TA's that were drag raced, one still currently with a cage and a Dana 60. But, as long as they are returned to stock at some point it's not ruined. IMHO.

I've given a LOT of thought to putting a LS3 in my TA and drive it to the track and run 10's... But then I've built a few LSx combos and know what works with them.
But, the car would always end up with a real Pontiac motor back in it.

Interesting pont, but on a personal note, I hate Chebbies in Pontiacs.

I do too. ;)

This thread is pretty interesting, because I'm going through the same thing myself right now. I come from the LS world from a relatively stock 98 z28 to a ridiculous Chevrolet Racing "mild" 454 cubic inch LSX block motor in a low mile 99 SS that put down 550 and 525 to the wheels but my mom could drive it and I got better gas mileage in it than I do my trailblazer SS.

That said I had about 10k into that motor not counting heads because I already had them. Whats missing here is the lower cost stuff and what is easier to work on. I've done all my own work my fbodies and the z06 I had, I'm having a heck of a time with the pontiac 350 as my posts in this section illustrate embarrassingly. The LS1 is a much easier engine to work on it just goes together, things only go on one way for the most part, and the fit is solid. Fuel injection seems simpler too, scale the injectors, set your timing and if it goes lean give it fuel and vice versa (part throttle is a little different)

Before I came on this board I had no idea what the old Pontiac were capable of, the 461's etc are truly impressive especially in the torque and I think if I could get a 550rwhp monster to fit under the formula hood I might go for it.

That said you can do a truck or ls1 engine extremely cheap, I mean do it right for under 3k and have close to 300-350rwhp with a medium sized cam 5.7+. Then you can go in stages moding it here and there to get to the 400rwhp.

What I'm finding with the Pontiacs you have to plan them out from the beginning. Heads that work on my 350 make no sense for a 455 so I don't even waste the money. It almost seems to be an art which is probably why alot of guys are so loyal.

I have a line on an LS1 long block that needs to be rebuilt and an LS6 crank and rods I'm leaning pretty hard in that direction for long term. Although I'm taking some cash to the Portland Auto Swap meet....maybe there will be the perfect start for a Pontiac Stroker.

I think if your goal is 400-425rwhp the ls1 is a sweet motor and you could do it pretty cheap, above that number though I think the Pontiac has it beat bang for buck. You start doing a stoker ls1 with ported LS3's, jesels, Fast intake and TB you get over the 10k mark in a hurry I have the spreadsheet to prove it ;)

For those that have driven both the traditional pontiac and LSx motors with equivilant power, what was more fun to drive and why? What would you rather take on road trip and why?

Obviously I have no idea of the fun to drive, I'm guessing road trip the LSx is a better solution as the FI will adjust to different conditions and reliability is pretty high if done right.

I will say this there is no comparison in sound. My 150hp 350 Pontiac sounds WAAAAAY meaner than any LSX I or anyone else I've known. I've probably had more than a dozen different lsx cam and exhaust combinations, its not even close. I feel like kind of a poser with my mean looking and sounding firebird knowing hyundi Tiberon would probably take me.

Several years back I had my choice of 2 cars that I could drive to work, a mild 455-powered (8.2:1 compression, 068 cam) '64 Tempest and a bone-stock 5.7 LS1 (346-cube) '02 WS6 T/A convertible. Both cars had about 350 HP.

1/4 mile times:

Tempest - 13.899 @ 101.85 MPH - traction-limited ETs due to hard radial street tires, tall gearing and lack of a posi rear. Used only 1st and 2nd gear to run the 1/4 mile. Pretty decent MPH for a low-compression engine with a stock '66 Tri-Power, 068 cam and HO exhaust manifolds. Race weight of 4050#.

T/A - 13.44 @ 104.03 MPH - much better gearing for drag racing with a 3.06 low gear and 3.23 rear, still somewhat traction-limited on stock tires but the posi rear helped. Race weight of 3900#.

The 455 (462) Tempest was more fun to drive around town because of the instant torque generated by the 455. The LS1 torque output was understandably lower and would come on later in the RPM range so it wasn't as satisfying when starting off from a stoplight.

On a road trip the T/A was much nicer to drive, fuel mileage was about double that of the 455. The 455 would get 9-10 MPG in town and a best of 13+ MPG on the highway, the LS1 would get 16-18 MPG city and 26-27 MPG on highway trips.

The 455 was backed by a TH400 with a 13" Continental converter and 2.56 gears with a 25.3" tall 235/45-17 tire. The LS1 was backed by a 4L60E (electronic version of the 700R4) with the stock lockup converter and 3.23 gears with 25.6" tall 275/40-17 tires, final drive ratio in OD was 2.261:1.

The tall 2.56 gears behind the 455 were still responsive enough to be fun to drive around town, but no doubt killed some of the city fuel mileage because it required a bit more throttle opening to get the car moving.

I'm still waiting to finish the 430 HP LS3 install in the '64 Tempest as family issues have prevented me from making much progress on it lately. At the same time I'm gathering parts and planning a '64 370 HP 421 HO buildup for my '64 LeMans convertible. The 421 HO engine will be stock except for the camshaft and the compression will be lowered a tad to cope with 91 octane fuel.

I like both Pontiac and LSX engines, they both have their strong points and are great engine designs.

I appreaciate the response.

If I didnt already have most of the stuff together to put a traditional Pontiac back in my GTO i would be going the LS route without hesitation.

I have a 1970 Chevelle im going to turn into a daily driver in a few years and without a doubt, that will be getting an LS.

IMO comparing a carbed poncho V-8 w/ a 3-speed non-OD trans to a fuel injected LS V-8 w/ a 4-speed OD trans isn't a fair comparison in terms of mpg- naturally the newer design which is lighter, has less rotating mass, is computer controlled, and has an OD trans will get better mileage. A 7.6l V-8 will also use alot more fuel than a 5.3l V-8, so the cid difference would also play a factor here.

It would be interesting to see what kind of power and mpg a 350P would make if treated to similar gear as an LS1- fuel injection, aluminum heads, roller cam, high-flow exhaust and of course good pistons and rods. I used to pull down 16-20 mpg w/ my original 350P, e-performer, 625 cfm AFB, stock cam and exhaust, so I'd image the good ol' 350P could come close- not bad for a 50+ year-old engine design.

We already know what engine would make more torque, so there no point in going over that.

Geno

X3, it's the soul of the car, change that and you change the whole experience, it's one of those things you either get or you don't, some weird Pontiac thing I picked up when I was younger? though I wouldn't be offended if you did swap it, I would never be personally interested in a car like that (must be getting old and set in my ways), no offense.

Clearly, each of the options discussed in this thread has both fans and detractors, merits and shortcomings. Something I didn't see mentioned though, is that the LS option requires a significant outlay of cash just to purchase the engine, versus a series of smaller expenditures to build the Poncho. I was fortunate enough to have the means to build my 455 all at one time, but not everyone shares that luxury. Plus, even though I could've spent the money all at once, I didn't. I figured that from a The-War-Depatment-doesn't-really-need-to-know-the-actual-cost (does she?) standpoint the Pontiac offered a distinct advantage.

C'mon, am I the only one here who doesn't always make full disclosure?

Uhh no, if my wife had any idea there would be even more meaningless shoes in our closet.

As far as torque What does a stock 455 put down? compared to a stock LS2? I should get out my RWTQ graph from my LSX with similar cubes, and it was built for docile street driving, it wasn't like it was weak. You have to compare apples to apples, there are some fast Toyotas out there too with enough money.

That said again the big Pontiacs are amazing, from the lsx world the small and big block chevys are not that impressive. The numbers these relatively "minor" modded Pontiacs make you take notice and the over the top builds are just that amazing.

There were a bunch of variations on the 455 through the years, so it depends on which 455 you're talking about. If you're talking about the general 455, 9.5:1 unported dport, raIV cammed combo that is popular, it's probably 380-400 lbs ft at the wheels.

In regards to ls1 vs. pontiac, I've driven a couple of ls1 cars. I drove an '04 GTO with 6 speed and an '01 firehawk with auto. I've also driven an ls2 powered 'vette 6 speed. Compared to my trans am with 400/4 speed, they were not as fun, though the 'vette was pretty impressive performance wise. They all had smoother power delivery where mine was peakier. The 6 speed shifters were ok, better than my St10 for sure but not great. The firehawk was a nice car, I almost bought it and would have if it were a stick. In terms of putting that engine in an old pontiac, I guess I don't see the point. I got 20mpg out of my 400 and it was more fun to drive than any of the ls powered cars, overall it's not as comfortable a car to drive every day for sure, but not much of that would have to do with the engine. I think an lsx would have been worth a couple of mpg vs. the 400 in my car given the same gearing, but not really worth the effort.

If the car is a potential daily driver, the lsx makes sense. If not, it really doesn't. You can make as much or more power for the same money with a pontiac and it makes for a much easier install (until you have to tighten the center header bolts).

Your observation that it's 'magic' to make power with a Pontiac isn't right, but it's also not as simple as opening a catalog and picking out a few parts and slapping it together (aka the Chevy way). That's a big part of the draw as there are a ton of different ways to go about it - do you go with a 3.75"/4"/4.25" stroke, do you go with ported factory heads or aluminum (and round port or d-port, or even tunnel port now), what cam matches up with all of that, which carb/intake combination works with it all, etc. I keep trying to talk myself into building a 100hp/liter pontiac but then I realize I don't have a car that could handle that kind of power.

Backing up a bit guys, I just want to interject that I think Gearbanger's $600 for machine work to a Poncho motor was low and that tended to underrate the budget there. I was recently ripped off (admittedly) at $1800 for the whole going through (decking, line bore/hone, the works) but I think the true average will be somewhere in between--maybe $1200.