Know your competition
 

Hopefully this will become a sticky. The intent is to have links to articles showing dyno tests etc "for the other guys" to get a feel for the Head Flow, Compression Ratio, Engine CID, Camshaft Specs, Timing, and Boost (PSI) and how they relate to the Horsepower and Torque of the engine.

Article #1: Chevy High Performance magazine documents the installation of a Vortech V-7 YSi-Trim supercharger on a Pace Performance ZZ502 short block engine. The engine made a maximum of 1115 HP on the dyno with 14.2 PSI from the supercharger.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ade/index.html


Tom Vaught

Chevy Crate Motor 454 Vortech Supercharger
 

GM Performance Parts' 454 H.O. crate engine is not only a bargain at its street price of around $4,600, its forged crank, pistons, and rods also make it capable of handling nearly as much power as you're capable of throwing at it.

"our final answer was an astounding 926 hp at 6,700 rpm and 756 lb-ft at 5,800 rpm. That's 2 hp per cubic inch on pump gas!"

AFR 305cc CNC chamber w/radius plate
0.600 Lift Intake flow 367 Exhaust flow 284

Duration @ 0.050 lift 246/252 degrees (Crane Solid Roller)
Valve Lift (1.7:1 rockers) 0.714/0.697-inch

Vortech YS-trim centrifugal blower (Demon Carb in Vortech Box 6.9 psi)

454 H.O. Stock HP/TQ = 471 Hp @ 5,500 501 Tq @ 3,800

454 H.O. Supercharged HP/TQ = 921 Hp @ 6.700 769 Tq @ 5,300

http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild.../photo_01.html

http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild..._up/index.html

Tom Vaught

406 cid 1500 HP
 

I know we are all about Pontiacs but for some insight to what 285 cfm heads(Brodix 11x), 406 cubes, 6000 rpm redline, intercooled turbos are capable of, check out this SBC 406 from Nelson's shop. On 91 octane and only 7 lbs boost 769 hp, at 14.5 psi over 1000 hp on 91 octane. Adding 110 octane race gas and upping the boost to 18.3 1165 hp. Changing injectors and upping the boost to 28 psi netted 1502 hp at 5600 rpm. BTW Brodix 11x heads advertised flow is not terribly different than out of box E-heads for a Pontiac.

Here is the link.
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/h...bocharger.html

Post those articles!
 

Hey folks I know there are more articles out there. Post those Ford Mopar BOP AMC Chevy combos! Even the "tuner" 4 and 6 cylinder cars may have some innovations worth considering.

Roots, Turbo, or Belt driven Centrifugal. I'll dig up some more too. Lots to learn from.

Even amongst us there are some very neat combo's out there. (Our own Rusty4cyl has a 4 cyl 1/2 IA2 with CV1 head and a 4/71 that kicks butt and over 700 hp)

Link correction
 

http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/h...ild/index.html

The pevious link isnt functioning.

Ahem, the Tech detail is all good. I just gotta comment about that "know your competition" philosophy.

See, better yet, "Know the field" then "PLAY YOUR OWN GAME", and you will know your limitations. Applies to alot of things. Example: Bowling.Your compete against yourself-and-the conditions, not the "opponent". I WANT my opponent to string Strikes together. It makes me proud to potentially loose. BTW; opponent gotta string alot of strikes to even get me to notice he's even in the alley. No BOOST gonna help the fella when I'm on me game.

The Ford Boys keep coming back with more solid "Street" Stuff to make things tough for the Chebby and Pontiac Guys: CODE RED GT500

http://www.muscularmustangs.com/2010...elby_gt500.php

1000 hp to 1400 hp depending on the Boost by Nelson Racing Engines

Enjoy.

Tom Vaught

That is 1400 hp out of about 330 cid.

Nice video, those guys make some awesome street engines. I remember watching one from them with a early Tempest that was nuts also............

thats a very wise statment Tom. About knowing your competition. Then you got little guys like me that try and do stuff outside the Box. And until your in the other lane against me most got no clue.
Ty for the call today. I will definitly keep what you said in the back of my mind as things come together.

half inch stud got it rite

play your own game

reall pontiac people dont even read that"stuff"

;)

Just to show that it is not all DYNO NUMBERS, John Clegg (Famous Pontiac Racer) just sent me a text message that one of the "factory designed & built" Supercharged Cobra Jet Mustangs just went 8.28 at 160 mph in "Super Stock" trim.

He said that yesterday Bob Tasca III went basically the same ET and 166 mph at the NMCA
Ford Racing Cobra Jet Showdown http://www.nmcadigital.com/cj/

"The NMCA Flowmaster Muscle Car Nationals is proud to announce a special event to be run in conjunction with the 5th Annual JE Pistons NMCA Muscle Car Nationals, at Milan Dragway in Milan, Michigan, August 26th-28th, 2011. The Ford Racing Performance Parts Cobra Jet Showdown presented by Holbrook Racing Engines will feature three separate classes – one for Cobra Jets utilizing the 2.3-liter supercharger or 428cid naturally aspirated engines, a second class for 4.0-liter supercharger (essentially running under NHRA Stock and Super Stock rules, respectively) and a third class will be competition index for Cobra Jets which do not fall into the other classes. All which will be run heads up until a winner in each class is determined. Once each individual winner is crowned, there will be a handicapped start (based on the quickest time for each individual competitor) Showdown with no breakout to determine the King of the Cobra Jets."





Tom Vaught

ford cobra jet
 

Definitely out of the new brand of Super stockers the Mustang's are really hauling ass. I bet Tom had something to do with their outcome and performance. Great Job. Wish i could talk the Wife into letting me get one. She says Not til other vehicles are paid off. Hopefully less then 2 years. and maybe I go for 1. :cool:

Just a Note: The Super Stock Mustangs (50 built total) cost over 100K out the door.

Deal is they are a "Turn key" race car and can run anywhere from 9.50s to very low 8s
depending on which calibration is flashed into the processor.

Hope it works for you.

Tom Vaught

Time to add another entry to the "Know your Competition" thread.

We have a:

2007 Shelby GT500 Mustang
5.4L Engine (331 Cubic Inches)
Stock Ford Aluminum 4 valve heads Ported by John Milhovetz
Big Stuff 3 EFI System
3.90 gears m/t 325/60/15 Tires
Rossler T-400 Trans
Kenne Bell Water-cooled 4.2L (per revolution) Supercharger (27 psi)

The car cranked out 1,125 Horsepower (821 torque) on the Shelby American rear wheel dyno during the latest 'Dyno Wars' held in Las Vegas.

Tom Vaught

Assuming typical losses for the Transmission that is 1293 horsepower at the flywheel from a 331 cubic inch production based Ford Engine.

Unfortunately those damn Camaro's are going to be right there with them. A certain COPO car has already gone some 8.40's. It is amazing what a little air pressure can do. Remember when they were making over 1200 horse with 4 cy. EcoTech's? It's the best way to go fast. Mike

Play your own game?? Are you kidding. In any "Game" you have to have a bench mark. Unless you are the benchmark. No one here is that benchmark. If you are not aware of the benchmark then you miss it when it changes.
(UH OH, the flood gates are open???) Mark L

Mike, My Benchmark, Bob Tasca, (3) (the Grandson and holder of four drag racing licenses -- Super Comp, Pro Stock, Top Alcohol Funny Car, and Funny Car) ran some high 7 second runs at Milan this year for the Ford Cobra Jet (Super Stock) Drag car competition.

I do not see any worries when his cars have run 7 second times in Super Stock and the Mighty COPO Camaro has run 8.40s. Think we have them covered.

Tom Vaught

if Pontiac Guys are not aware of those times, they need to get out more.

Food for thought, a Ford Modular Engine Racer: (John Mohovitz) (Accufab Throttle Bodies) with a 4 valve 329 cubic inch modular engine has run 6.08 at 239 mph in the quarter (in 2008). Our best so far is the Butler/ Quillen Pontiac (489 cid engine) team with a 6.27 at 228 mph.

His camshafts have no more than .480 lobe lift times 1.8" rockers = .864 maximum lift, BUT the engine IS a 4 Valve Engine!

Tom Vaught

Here are some lowly Oldsmobiles.:D



434 SBO N/A 875 hp 80's tech heads

http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic205.html

506 BBO N/A 820 HP

http://www.highperformanceolds.com/p...hp?f=14&t=4601

427 SBO Turbo 945 hp 12psi

http://www.highperformanceolds.com/p...hp?f=14&t=1930

307 SBO N/A 504 HP factory heads

http://www.highperformanceolds.com/p...hp?f=14&t=3455

397 SBO Turbo 1700 hp 80's tech heads

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDl7O7K297I

403 SBO Nitrous 1300 hp 80's tech heads

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quf5Hj7sAvg

New can of "WHOOP-AZE" COMING from the Ford Team.
Low 8s and high 7s with the right calibration.

Tom V.

1000 HP with a 2.9L Whipple Supercharger (as installed by Ford).

Who's cares about Ford............go the FORD web site and tell them! This is a Pontiac web site.


GTO George
"A Pontiac Racer"

You obviously have had your head up your aze the last 6 years that the thread has been a STICKY in the boost section. KNOW YOUR COMPETITION is the name of the thread , Dumb Aze!

The previous cars were running in the 7s (without Methanol, zoomie headers, a much smaller supercharger, a much smaller engine, etc).
AND they were legal Super Stock cars.

Not like your deal George.

So piss-off

Tom V.

Again.................who cares! LOL!
Whats the price tag...............wait don't tell us $100,000!


GTO George

Apparently ONLY You, George, as you are the only one who has complained about the topic in 6 years. Think about it everyone.

Ha ha George, you are so transparent. I have had several people e-mail me with nice responses to the car.

Tom V.

There has been way more then me that complained about your Ford NON-sense, you're old you have a SHORT memory!! Never said the car wasn't nice ($100,000 worth of nice) it means NOTHING to us Pontiac racers! This is a Pontiac web site!


GTO George

What size is that engine Tom? There are a few guys over here in our 100% street legal Street Eliminator class running SBF 347 turbo combos that are right up with the big cube Chevy boys- high 7's @ 170-200mph on drag radials.

It's a 5 liter engine with a special Whipple 2.9 blower.


GTO George

It's the 4 valve per cylinder that helps them. Just like the supra 3.0 liter jz running in the sevens with a turbo. We need a 4 valve head for boost! LOL

Plus $100,000!!!! WOW!


GTO George

LMAO

x2 on the LMAO ;)

Tom V.

Yeah, there is a guy who switched from BBC on nitrous power to the Toyota 3.0 six pot and he is going a little bit quicker. However the class has restrictions on power adders- you cant run a turbo AND nitrous- unless your engine is 3.0 litres or under. So the smart guys run the Toyota six pot with a huge turbo and then use a shot of nitrous to spool it.
I had thought about entering the class using a 3.5 litre Rover V8 (215 Buick to you), then sleeving down the bores/destroking it to make it a 3.0 litre,which means huge twin turbos could be used with a shot of nitrous to spool them. The late Rover block is available with cross bolted mains, and some decent aftermarket heads are available from Australia.
However, I'm a Pontiac guy so it looks like I'm stuck in the past!

Being a "Pontiac Guy" does not mean that you CAN'T acknowledge the efforts of others (who can actually go faster than you with smaller engines).

Great post Taff. I bet the BBC guy on NOS is still respecting the Toyota 3.0 six pot Guy who is running better times vs him.

Tom V.

The roll cage in the Mustang is only certed to 8.50..........for $100,000 WOW what a bargain!! LOL!!


GTO George

Damn, that's nice!

Not for a $100,000 race car that only runs 8.50's.


GTO George

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2012/1...8-14-mile-run/

2012 car. The 2016 CJ has the same capabilities. If you can afford to buy a $100,000 vehicle you can afford to upgrade the roll cage to 7.50 specs.
Damn 3 tenths quicker than a 74 'Nova'.

Tom V.

Either way its around $100,000 or over almost twice what my car is worth, yea give me another $50,000 i GUARANTEE you ill run rings arounnd that FORD piece of SH_T with an out dated PONTIAC!! LOL!!


GTO George

Who was talking to you George, You don't own a Nova, do you?

Tom V.

NOPE............its one Bad Ass Pontiac GTO, remember PONTIAC (Pontiac web Site) not no piece of CRAP Ford!! LOL!


GTO George

Whatever makes you feel good George. Have fun.

TV

"Racing" does............thank you!


GTO George

Well Aston Martin won the 2017 Le Mans Race this year.
They did a great job beating the rest of the field.

Ford was a few seconds behind Aston Martin (after 24 hours of racing and having to carry an additional 44 lbs of weight and run restricted boost) so that the competition was close to equal. Chevrolet got third place on the podium.
Ferrari was a "No Show" on the Podium so Ford has again beat Ferrari in the Le Mans Racing (50 years later). Ford won in 1966 and in 1967 (Gurney/Foyt). We won last year and this year Second Place. If we had been able to run in the same configuration as last year's winning car we might have been first on the podium again. But it is what it is.

The Chevrolet guys pulled a couple of boner moves during the race, (poor, really poor).

So another year is over. Jackie Chan's Le Mans Team was kicking butt most of the race too in their class.

Tom V.

Another Boner Move by a Guy well back in the 12th spot:
(He takes out one of the Ferrari LMP-2 cars with a really uncalled for move to the left, he had a lot of room to get by.)
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/stupid...the-1796195649

Tom V.

One case of just pure and simple Bad Luck was the Corvette in 2nd place in the PRO Class
(we were Third at the time). They blew a tire on the last lap and were moved from 2nd to 3rd, so we squeeked ahead to 2nd place on that deal.
That was a fast Corvette.

Tom V.

Been a while since I posted in the "Know Your Competition" Sticky.

I was looking at files on the Boosted Ford GT and found the article on the 280 MPH M2K (Fastest Mile Land Speed Record Vehicle) I personally saw run at the Texas Mile Race years ago.

The car had a 331 cid engine, Twin Turbos, Inter-cooled, Dual Fuel Injectors per cylinder, LARGE wastegates controlled by computer vs intake manifold pressures, WILSON Intake, and Methanol Fuel. A bunch of stuff I have not posted about (but is in the article).

Here is a link to the article. https://motoiq.com/m2k-motorsports-280-mph-ford-gt/

Note the engine made 2035 rear wheel hp at only 36 psi of boost pressure and 8500 rpm (Dyno LIMITED) but normally runs 45 psi of boost pressure for the full mile of the race course. This is a 4 valve engine. Malcolm MacKeller (Pontiac Engineer) had it right when he was looking at 3 Valve and 4 Valve engines in the 60s).

And the article was several years old. The current record by the same car is 293.6 mph with the same chassis (2006 Ford GT).

The current Texas Mile record is held by M2K Motorsports' 2006 Ford GT, driven by Patrick O'Gorman, clocking in at 293.6 MPH.


Here is a video of the 293.6 run. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnCsQPpY6xA

Tom V.

Pontiacs are at 2,500 HP with around 35 lbs of boost.............just saying! LOL!
Boost is HP BUT so are picking the right parts!

GTO George

George,
So just what are you saying?

So a 505 ci engine with 1 less psi of boost made 2500 HP. :rolleyes: So just what would a 331 ci Pontiac make @ 36 psi?

Some day you will learn (maybe not) that 1 psi of boost on one engine is not the same as 1 psi of boost on another engine.

Stan

Stan.........are you serious, ive been running boost for 35 years in different applications Im pretty sure i know how it works! My cars a pretty good example.

Thanks,
GTO George