Can a 65 be too nice?
 

Is this overrestored? Opinions?

Its an absolutely stunning 65 but they never looked this nice from the factory.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQ...mZ190392925061

Wow......

Hey Paul.I saw this one yesterday and called the guy in Utah.It was restored by Thorton's,and as one can see,an original 3x2 4 speed but,I feel the Starlight Black,Parchment is the big selling point.I love black,w/parchment and so do many in the hobby.Of course we can't find out how many,but ,in 24 years in the hobby,I haven't seen many original A-coded cars.
It is over restored,to be sure.I noticed that there were some mistakes on originality.Two oil caps -one per valve cover,carbs way over dichromated,I asked him if they were painted with Eastwood's Carb Renew(it looks like it to me)but he insisted not.hum... oil filter not painted engine color.and that's a cursory glance.He says and confirms "Gold Awards" in Concours,but,that is sloppy research and needless point deductions in IMHO. But....it is purdy!! Larry B..

Wouldnt surprise me if they missed it during Judging. Way too many stories about the lack of stability in that area at a GTOAA Nats.

Easy corrections though.

Missing!
 

All that beautiful work to make it factory correct and No Factory Pinstripe??????????

Larry here is one we picked up earlier this spring black and red. Don

It is a very nice car, BUT I picked up on the same things that Larry did. Also it has a Chevy dipstick, wrong springs (it's sitting too high, especially in the rear). And if you can spot those things just by looking at a few pics, I'm sure there's plenty more. Could you buy that car and duplicate it for 75k, probably not. But is it worth it in today's economy, probably not either. My guess is around 50.

Are those #77 heads?-- PCV hose bracket from 4bbl

Did I miss something or is this just a misprint - THE ORIGINAL NUMBERS MATCHING WS 400/360 TRI-POWER ENGINE RUNS LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN

Wish him good luck.
I'm doing a 65 and it was a nice car to start. Bet I have that In my car in the end .
These cars get no respect in the market.
I'm doing a concourse restoration
It's nice to see people look hard to see the effort.

That doesn't look like the normal 65 shifter unless it's the early 64 type with Hurst logo.

Car has a dec build date. probably border line for change over?

If you want'a get picky the underside's were not black

Come on now , that car is beautiful .

I politely disagree with you on that one. they say a picture is worth a 1000 words this car has never been messed with underneath had all the original floor pans trunk pans etc. off road since 82 and in storage. original sc car. Sure looks black to me. I have pictures of other cars as well black under neath. Don

I'll have to disagree with 'dld' also. I've owned several 65's that were untouched underneath and they had all been blacked out underneath. Most did, however, have car color overspray around the edges.

And the shifter looks too 'bent' to me. The one's I recall were more straight up.

But we are being very, very critical of a very nicely done car. But when the seller describes the car like it is the best one in the world, what do you expect? It's not.

My early Dec Fremont lemans Convert was and still is all black underneath and yes the early 65's had 64 shifters with hurst logo's. i got one too! Driver side front bumper needs adjusting alittle bit. Over all it georgous. wonder how to get more pics of that engine compartment. Add said 389/360. What about fan shrouds on these cars?

Beautiful,but...since we're pickin...besides all that has already been mentioned,didn't 65's have 'notched' fan blades? My 65 was painted body color on the bottom of the floor boards and inside the rear fenderwells.

Oh,forgot this one ..the vent knobs look white.They should be chrome.That seems to be a common mistake.

Beautiful car but I don't know about "no expense spared". Lot's of details missed, but it seems he somehow managed to keep enough points to get a GTOAA Gold.

This is a never restored 65 in Ca. that was on ebay. if you look close the bottom It is a Red Oxide with under coat over it probably done later.

My car was thin coat of black and then primed red and color coated red

the first two pics are of the unrestored car and the third is of my car . note the blk wash primer then the red oxide and then the color.

Yes does look black. I'm not sure if different plants had different paint processes or not.But maybe some one knows

the notched fan blade was only installed on these year cars that had a power steering pump. That notch was to clear the pulley Hub mounting nut. It is no doubt nice but I think the location, location, location detracts from the car and sells the owners expectations rather than the car. Somebody stated that two valve cover breathers were incorrect but are the breathers themselves correct. I have two origionals and they are shaped differently and have "oil" stamped on them. those look like a pair of Mr Gasket style

He does have the incorrect breathers on the valve covers. The ones you have are correct.

Dld, I'm betting that the car that you showed pictures of is a Montero Red car, thus the red overspray. And I can't really tell what I'm looking at in the 3rd picture that you say is of your car. Is your car red also?

early 65 and later shifters

V/C Breather Cap
 

OEM style, minus the small dent (borrowed from the net).
PS - I agree that the background does not help as it takes attention away from the car plus insinuates high expectations as Pontirag mentioned. Find an old garage to use as a background.

my hurst is like the one on the left. I mistated my self earlier and said it had a hurst logo on it but it does not. My car was built prior to 12 dec, is a fremont lemans convert the shifter is marked with 64 PN#'s on individual parts but is date coded just before the pontiac body build date. First week of DEC 64. Got Protecta-plate too.

As for backdrop. I like the North end of the runway at Bisbee municipal Airport

Yes both cars were red. The pic of mine is the dash that i sanded to show the layers of paint . The 65 ca. has the red primer pretty far in to be just over spray. When I striped the bottom of mine there was a blk. base coat but was sprayed with some intent with the red oxide. the top color coat was just on the edges. But as a lot of these cars were under coated it may go unnoticed ? don

The Greco-Roman Phalic thing is a bit much, after all its for sale on ebay. What? he dont want his Barret-Jackson golf buddies to know forclosure is imenent? Do you have any Grey Poop -on-shingle?

Any way...Larger radiator and steel fan shroud standard for tri power cars?

Here is my understanding of how these cars were painted and this has been my experience on several body off restorations that were done back in the 80's on fairly unmolested cars: The bodies were painted car color. As they were painted in the door jambs, rear fender lips, rear area behind gas tank, etc. various amounts of overspray would get onto the floorpans (both inside the car and underneath the car), in the rear wheel wells, in the area behind the gas tank, etc. I noted various amounts because it would vary due to how the or who painted the car. AFTER the car was painted, the underneath was sprayed with a black primer that was approximately 30% or less gloss. This was a 'protectant' coat to prevent rust. This was not an exact science and was sprayed from the rear of the car all the way up to and including the firewall. This accounts for the difference in gloss of the firewall and the heater box (it was not installed at this point) and the inner fenders, radiator cradle, etc. Then undercoating or sound deadner or whatever you want to call it would be sprayed in the rear wheel wells AND in the transmission hump indention.

My previous posts have been somewhat misleading when I stated car color 'overspray', as it really isn't overspray. It's just the factory paint that was left uncovered by the black primer protectant coat. I've personally never uncovered any red oxide primer on any early GTO.

Joining late, but here goes:

a) So it appears it sold for $74,950?

b) I agree with 60sstuff - I like a pinstripe on my cars.

c) My shifter is not like either one pictured. My car came with the flatter shifter (1st week of September, 1964, Pontiac build). I wonder if it is because my car does not have the console:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...O/000_5514.jpg

d) Notched fan is correct; my car is manual steering/manual brake tripower - but has the notched fan. Larger radiator standard for tripower cars but not the shroud (just the finger shield):

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...O/100_7821.jpg

e) The various plants may have had different processes but of all the plants the one we know the most about would be Pontiac Michigan (where the subject ebay car was built). I just can't comment, because all of my collector cars have a black exterior (because of that I didn't even know about the black firewall detail until after I joined this site).

K

Keith,
Man thanks for that pic of your rad. I have never seen one with the TT stencil.

Keith, I don't think the car sold, at least there were no bids on it. 75K would be a tough sell in this market, even if this were a Tiemann retored 65.

Speaking of fans though, the alternator fan is also wrong. Looks like a parts store alternator swap.

You are welcome. I didn't know it was there, either, til Bigpop starting asking me about codes and stuff...

;)

Just for clarity, prior to 2009, a car could have 50 points out of 500 deducted and get a "Gold" award in Restored and Factory Original classes. For 2009, the point total was raised to 700 and 70 points could be deducted and still receive "Gold" in GTOAA judging. "Gold" cars are often far from perfect. 70 points are a lot deductions in my opinion to be considered "Gold".

Yah K. blame me for this mess YOU created !!! lol

I agree with Norm,It didn't sell. If I had the $,I may have bought that car.It is a beautiful paint/interior combo.Starlight Black,original,I love it!!

As a point of interest,when I called the owner/broker? in Utah,he said the restorer's,Thorntons,had done many GTOs.I hadn't heard of them,no biggy,but,for a place that maybe have done many GTOs,I feel they were a little sloppy in their research.
The valve cover breather is easy to ID.any repop catalogue shows the correct ones w/dimples,i.e.I asked him about date codes,alternator,voltage regulator,etc.and he didn't seem willing to get me the info,just that it was #'s matching.But I am a date code freak of sorts.On this car,that should be in the resto process,but even the GTOAA
GOLD CONCOURS doesn't check dates,only P/N/s as I have been told. Larry B.

Can't be sure if someone didn't take the good stuff off after car got the GOLD

Yea, Its amazing what vague proclamations people will make in adds but nail 'em down on the truth and they get all stoopit. You cant expect them to know what the date codes are but at that price and with those hyped up claimes they better be able to say it is, guarentee it and in writting for that money. They can get pretty rude and deffensive about it to because if they are lieing and you know it then the last thing they want is a knowlegable buyer sueing them in court. So if your asking the right kind of questions and they have to lie then they dont want to sell it to you because its only going to bring trouble and a bad rep to them.

They can afford to be rude to you because it makes you go away. If you persisted and bought the car then you would be an even bigger fool because you paid too much, they lied about authenticity and you bought it (literaly?) and they were rude to you and you still sucked it up. GIMP!They can afford to be rude because its always cheaper than a lawyer. They can afford rudeness but they cant afford a lawyer. They bin there, done that. Used car salesman.

And that sums up the kind of idiots paying top dollar for these kinds of cars. Real cars of this quality really do bring this kind of money but the poser's wont be let in the front gate with poser cars. Thier cars, as nice as they are are not the real thing and so really we're looking at a 30-45.000 $ car. Even if it was the real deal, and it is not, just the way its presented detracts from its real values, and further more the evasive description and and evasive answers are major red flags at this price level.

It is an idiot that thinks everyone else is and idiot. So right away this seller presumes right off the line that only serious buyers would also be idiots, pretty insulting to your customer, in fact this seller sells several cars at a time and all his adds presume a level of gulibility among buyers. And here's a hint: any vehicle description that includes corporate history and or vague adjectives and generalisations...scamola. The first pictures of the car in front of the house on the hill ...dead give away to the clientel he is appealing to. Stoopit money.

only rearly will you see real cars of the highest caliber for sale on ebay. rarely! and next up the food chain is th BJ type auctions where people want to be seen spending money. Some how they equate spending big stoopit money frivolously in front of the camera while we suck stains as "sucess". They probably dont even know what they're buying but its thier 15 minutes of fame.Po$er$.

The real deals go on behind the scenes.The real cars that are quality trade hands away from the public spotlight because its about owning the real deal. Most people who pay real money for real cars aske the right questions but even then they already know what it is they are getting. sellers care about where the car goes as much as the buyer. You aint gonna buy the best seats in the house from a scalper in the parking lot.

A fool and his money are soon parted

Zazarine and Roberts book states that only PS cars had the notched fan

I assume you are writing in response to my posts on this thread.I will say catagorically that he was not rude.He just talked fast,and kept going back to the PHS,and the restorer's "reputation" of doing excellent cars.I agree with about everything you stated.The real cars trade hands "behind closed doors" for the most part.Ebay is a good way to guage the market in a sense.
If Scott Tiemann had done that car,75K is a bargain IMHO.Jim Mott also.That car will always be a favorite among collectors.So if you are worrying about over paying.just keep it in great condition,it does take alot of work as we all know who have show cars that are driven occasionally.I have read for every one hour of drive time ,it is 8 hours of redetailing,and pray there are no paint chips,etc.!!
I have felt that many of the BJ buyers are guys who have made their fortunes and want to relive that great era.And of course,the kudos that go with it.I stated in a thread when I first joined P.Y. in 2000 that.the trophy,in most cases,if not all,should go to the restorer.Who's kidding who here? I have seen many times,an owner walk up and accept a big award,and accept that hobbies enthusiasts "congrats" etc. For what,trailering it "x" miles to get an "atta boy"? Or wose yet,have a helper drive it there,clean it,set up the info on display pieces(history,# made,et.al.) .That's cool ,but
...... you get the picture.I admire the guys who research,ansd do alot of the work themselves,many who are not oriented to do this kind of work.They learn by research,asking questions,learning new skills,and all that.They are the real deal in our hobby.But it takes all kinds,right?
One last thing about BJ.I am sure the drinks are encouraged before during,and after.We would all probably lose some degree of reason,l make some stupid rash decisions when the crowd is chanting,your friends are encouraging you,the car looks "great",heard of this technique before.Oh yah,the Las Vegas Method of extracting dollars from ones pocket!!
Good post Pontirag,what you got?? Larry B. P.S. I still love the car!!?? LOL

Cant say specifically who you delt with to be fair but I contacted vendor previously Re another car and was treated like I was an idiot for daring to challange what was stated in the add. I actually asked for clairification on some statements and kept having to change the subject when the person on the other end got deffensive, Finally he said look you would not be happy with this car why dont you go and keep looking somewhere else,click! Now I kinda have the home court advantage. and I may be a bit of a jerk if I'm provoked but facts are facts and lies are not, and the market is the way it is because of watch dogs and pimps

with regards to the car itself it would take maybe 1500 to 2000 more to correct everything id'd as incorrect on it. But still I'm not convinced the additional 2000 would make it a 75000 car. and that kind of showmanship (not quality of resto) does not raise the value of all cars. and trully does the value increase or does the value of the dollar keep going down. I'm not trying to deficate on anybody's party. Just trying to point out that there are many variables to the varous muscle car markets.and all my coments about the flies attracted to the market is no reflection on this seller, His add speaks for him

Its a beautiful car. I got copies of the engine compartment pics to inspire me to do up my engine compartment. the flaws are not the fault of the car. they are man made thus imperfect,

owner and restorer deserve honourable mention. Seller needs tone down the gaudiness. it attracts flies.

Just curious as to where those GTOAA 'GOLD' awards are from a National show or maybe a GTOAA regional meet where the judging may be a little more lax. With what is obvious on that car, there has got to be a ton of stuff that a good judge would find wrong at a National meet. Just wondering. Can anyone blow that picture up enough to tell?

Oh, and not that it makes any difference, but I'd bet a dime against a doughnut that the trim tag is a reproduction.

how do you tell?

BIGPOP ...........it Must be happy hour! The boys are cranked up

Based on my car, they would be incorrect.

K

Good point

I guess I got called a FLY for being attracted to the car at first. Jeez,I never have been called that before!

Jerry,explain the trim tag statement,I missed that in the pics.maybe I wasn't clear on one thing,in regard to the GOLD Award for Concours,I asked if it were GTOAA and he said,without looking that he believed at least one was a GTOAA Meet Gold Concours.
Larry B.

I thinlgit has more to do with the parasites that are attracted to the hobby. and among those there are those who harm it. cant speake for any body who thinks they are a fly because they are attracted to that car. My refrence is to the industry.

Mr Seymore, with utmost respect I'm not sure your car could be considered the norm. parts books, service manuals also suggest that the notched fans are for PS cars.

All P/S cars got the notched fan. I've seen more than one OE cars that had it also with HD cooling.

MIke

Thank you; I know a lot of powertrain related things (heads, intake, headers) have been changed on my car but I'm pretty sure not the fan and fan clutch.

I think Mr Nixon nailed it: tripower, manual trans and rear axle ratio drives the heavy duty cooling system, which would include the 19.5" (notched) fan.

K