'65 Tripower center carb vac fitting
 

Searched the forums for info on exactly what this vacuum tee is supposed to look like. Found a pic on page 319 of Restoration Guide(the first edition) that matches the descriptions,etc. found in previous posts. Some had indicated in previous posts that this piece was available as a reproduction part, but I don't find it in any of my GTO supplier catalogs. (Some of my catalogs probably aren't latest editions.) Poked around on PY on line catalog also, but did not find it there. Anybody know if there is a reproduction of this available before I post a Wanted ad for it? My car is a 4 speed/non AC car, so I also need the Threaded Sleeve style plug in place of the Threaded Sleeve nut (that would secure the A/C vacuum pipe or modulator line for auto trans.) I'm guessing this plug is the same one sold to plug the 90 degree fitting at base of front carb on cars w/o power brakes. Can anybody confirm that?

I will send you a picture of the '65 Tripower vacuum fitting for the front carb base tomorrow. It is a Tee that connects power brake vacuum on the driver's side and vacuum carb linkage vacuum on the passenger side. Non power brake cars have the brass plug you described and '65 4 speed cars have a rubber nipple over the other side of the Tee.

You are right that there are no repros of this fitting--at least I've never seen one. This fitting was used on ALL '59-'64 Tripower setups and on the '65/'66 setups with automatic transmissions (vacuum linkage). There was no vacuum line to the '65/'66 automatic trans.

This fitting is not hard to find. I have several.

Dick, I think Terry is asking about the Center Carb Tee.

Here it is from a mag article.

Note, the '64/'65 GTO never used the connection on the RH side of this Tee.

The GTO always had a Threaded Sleeve Plug in the RH outlet. I have found Threaded Sleeve type fitting suppliers offering the same TS Nuts & Nut Sleeves that were used, in most cases still listed under the same p/ns used in the '60s.

But I have never found original type TS Plugs, maybe just haven't looked hard enough.

The RH outlet was only used for the big Cars (with or without A/C), it supplied Vac for the Vac operated Heater Control. The Tempest Heater did not use Vac operation.

The LH outlet normally supplied Vac thru a fitting to the Dist Vac Advance unit, by way of a Vac Hose.

Some big Cars used ported Vac Advance from the RH side of the Center Carb Bowl. In those cases, the LH outlet of the Tee was plugged.

All GTOs used the manifold Vac Advance off the LH outlet of the Center Carb Tee.

As to the Front Carb fittings, Dick, if I understand what you are saying about the Auto Trans applications, I don't agree.

First, Terry, you would always need the Plug for any GTO for the RH outlet of the Center Carb Tee as noted above. Vac for the Super Turbine Auto Trans was not picked up from the Center Carb Tee and the A body did not require a Vac connection for the Heater or the A/C.

The big Car did not require a Vac source for the Auto Trans in '64.

But the big Cars did require a Vac Source for '65 when they went to the TH400.

The attached MPC Illustration shows how this was done. Although it is not labeled, the arrangement illustrated in the upper right is the Tri-Power arrangement.

The Plug Item 16 was deleted when the car was equipped with Auto Trans and Power Brakes and the Vac Pipe for the Power Brakes connected where the Plug is shown.

I believe the Power Brake Vac Pipe was just a little bit different for the Auto Trans cars vs. Man Trans.

Unfortunately, there is no similar Illustration specific to the GTO with Auto Trans.

It is my view that the '65 GTO with Auto Trans was set up the same as the '65 big Car with Auto Trans.

This set-up was similar to how the '64 GTO with Auto Trans was set up, except evidence suggests that the '64 Vac Extension Pipe (Item 13) had a longer extension so that it was solid (no rubber hose) between the Extension and the Front Carb rear fitting.

It is possible that the '64 solid Vac Extension Pipe was revised as a running change to the '65 more flexible arrangement sometime during the '64 Model Year.

None of that matters to you for a man trans car unless you have Power Brakes.

My speculation is that for a '64/'65 man trans GTO with PB, the Vac Extension Pipe was not used. Rather, a specific PB Vac Pipe was connected directly to the Front Carb rear fitting.

Unfortunately, I have never found enough evidence to prove the Vac connections for the PB with or without Auto Trans.

I assume without PB, the '65 man trans GTO used a Plug in the LH outlet of the Front Carb rear fitting, while the RH side has the rubber cap on the RH outlet nipple as Dick described.

Dick, my question is, why do you say, "There was no vacuum line to the '65/'66 automatic trans."?

Brass Vacuum Tee
 

Terry - Here are borrowed pics of the Tee with factory plug used on the back of the center carb base.

Follow-Up
 

Some helpful pics for what it's worth - 65 and 66 would typically have this brass ell fitting coming off the front carb base. Factory slotted plug installed without power brakes and a power brake car would have a short steel line threaded into the ell that would meet with the steel vacuum line from the P/B booster held together with a clamped hose as seen in the old magazine pic.
I have seen another style brass ell (bigger block design) also used with a different cap plug.

'65 Tripower center carb vac fitting
 

Thanks for the replys. I already have the correct fitting and plug for the front carb that I got from Ames. It's that elusive center carb tee that I'm trying to dig up. I may have read through the replies too quickly, but still wondering if the steel plug with the slot in the head that Ames sells with the front carb 90 degree fitting would be the same one needed on the passenger side of the center carb tee. Appreciate the photos also, since it can get tricky trying to describe what some of these pieces look like.

Different sizes
 

Terry - I don't know what the repro suppliers offer, but the OEM slotted plugs used on the Tee fitting are much smaller than the one I show on the ell fitting above.

'65 Tripower center carb vac fitting
 

60's, I see that difference myself after studying the enlarged photos more closely. I would have sworn I had one of these center carb tees, but rummaged through my spare stuff and came up empty. Wonder what it would cost to have one machined out of brass. With all the many small TriPower parts and pieces being reproduced, seems odd that this one has never been made.

Terry, according to the MPC Tri-Power Illustration, the 3 way Front Carb Fitting used a 9/16"-20 Plug in the LH outlet when not used.

I should not have relied on memory when I made my first post.

Seems I have forgotten a few important things.

First, the '64 GTO with A/C apparently did use a vac source (I didn't go back to check what the vac was for, possibly a valve underhood). This source was taken off the RH outlet of the Center Carb Tee, same as the big car used for the Heater.

The '64 Center Carb Tee Plug was used in numerous applications at least as far back as '59 and was a 5/16"-24 Plug.

But there was an important change for '65.

The '65 Center Carb Tee was revised. It was not the same as the '63-'64 Center Carb Tee (which in turn was different from earlier Tees). The '65 Tee was p/n 9780984.

I believe the main difference (and perhaps only difference) for the '65 Tee was a change in the RH outlet dimension.

When the RH outlet was unused, the Plug used was p/n 9780983 (note the consecutive sequencing of the Tee & Plug p/ns).

This was a 3/8"-24 Plug.

60sstuff, that Front Carb el in your pix looks to be a Threaded Sleeve Elbow. They are commercially available today but may look different. Not sure if you can find one with the correct male and female sizes.

If it was used by the Factory for Man Trans applications in '65 & '66, I was not aware of it.

Like Dick, I had thought the same Front Carb fitting (special 3 way type, maybe Dick can post a pic) was used on all Front Carbs.

In '64, this was true for sure, since all factory T-Ps used the Vac Secondary linkage.

But for '65, the special 3 way fitting is listed in the MPC for both the Tempest & Pontiac T-P with Auto Trans only (they still used the Vac Secondary linkage).

No Front Carb fitting is listed for the '65-'66 T-P with Man Trans which used the Mech Linkage and had no use for Vac off the RH side of the Front Carb.

Lucky for me, if there is a "controversy" about the correct Front Carb fitting, it doesn't involve the '64!

While nothing is listed in the MPC for the '65/'66 Front Carb fitting with Man Trans, the Threaded Sleeve Elbows are listed in Gr. 8.963 in the MPC (along with Threaded Sleeve Connectors and Nuts). The illustration is pretty close to your picture.

So what is the consensus for the '65 Front Carb Fitting with Man Trans? Simple elbow or same 3 way fitting used with the Vac Secondary linkage?

My Consensus
 

Simple elbow. Another style brass ell fitting pictured below with cap plug which was removed from a front carb base on a non P/B GTO. Although it's hard to see, an Original Family Owned red 66 that belongs to a forum member has the first design ell I posted above w/slotted plug. Then the second GTO pic I saved from an ebay auction shows the second design "block" style ell with cap plug. Pictures speak a thousand words. Nothing like 45 yr. old OEM fittings!

'65 Tripower center carb vac fitting
 

Can anybody provide the dimensions for the '65 tee? I understand from the discussion thus far that it is shorter than the '64. I'm guessing I will need dimensions in order to insure I get the correct piece should I locate a tee for sale. If seller is not familiar with these subtle differences, I can see how I could easily wind up with the wrong piece.

'65 Tripower center carb vac fitting
 

Found a reproduction in the latest on line catalog from Ames under P/N N136P. No photo available yet. Ordered one today. At $36 it better be perfect.

It will be great or send it back!

Most of the ones I have seen for 65-66 Manual Trans were a simple elbow (not like the
64 Tee).

Tom Vaught

All the '64's used the tee in the front carb, as they all had vacuum linkage (some claim there were some mechanical linkage '64's, but I've never seen one). The '65/'66 manual trans (mechanical linkage) setup I've seen had the cast brass elbow in the front carb base. If no power brakes, there was a slotted steel pipe fitting acting as a plug in the elbow. Every '65/'66 automatic trans setup I've seen uses the brass tee with the power brake line plugged if no power brakes and vacuum for the throttle linkage taken off the other side of the tee.

I've attached a picture showing all the varieties of Tripower base fittings I have. The shorter tee for the center carb (distributor vaccum and heater-A/C vacuum) is next to the longer tee. The round portion with the 1/8" pipe threads is 1" long. The round portion of the longer tee is 1 11/16" long. The longer tee was used on all '64 and earlier setups I've seen. This long tee makes it awkward to attach the vacuum lines as the tee is nearly against the rear carb. The shorter tee is used on '65 setups, but '66's, I believe, used only a straight hose nipple in the base of the center carb for heater-A/C vacuum. Distributor vacuum is taken off the hollow carb stud in '66.

The odd tee is from a '64 GTO AFB. Note it uses the same slotted steel fitting to block the non-power brake port.

John V. is right about the plug for the center carb vacuum tee. There are two sizes, 3/8" and 5/16". I didn't have time tonight to sort out which is which, but believe the '64 and earlier used the smaller plug--'65 used the larger one.

Sorry for the rambling, but I've tried to provide what you're looking for.

Slight Correction - Reverse
 

[QUOTE=Dick Boneske;3993874] but '66's, I believe, used only a straight hose nipple in the base of the center carb for heater-A/C vacuum. Distributor vacuum is taken off the hollow carb stud in '66.

Dick - Great info (not rambling) and pics! This thread may be a little more than Terry asked for but that's why this forum is so valuable. Maybe 66 4 BBL cars used the hollow stud for dist. vacuum, but the 66 Tri-Powers got the dist. vacuum from a short straight brass nipple threaded into the center carb base as seen in the pics below. The hollow stud would have a factory black plastic cap. The exception would be the Cal. Smog Tri-Powers which used the steel line off the right front center carb body. I think the A/C vacuum in 66 came off the hollow stud.

'65 Tripower center carb vac fitting
 

Never too much information. I print all this stuff and keep it in a giant binder. Probably need to start a second one. Many thanks, Dick, for the photos and info. Put yourself down for a Honey Baked ham also.

Thanks, guys for the tolerance. I think 60sstuff is right. The straight nipple off the center carb base supplied distributor vacuum for '66's. The hollow stud is for A/C vacuum controls.

John V.---earlier in this thread you asked why I said no vacuum line went to the automatic trans on '64/'65/'66. Isn't this true?? The first trans I knew that used a vacuum line was the TH400 in '67.

I'll send $20 to the first person who posts pictures of their stock original early 65, Tri power, P/Brakes auto trans GTO--- how does the modulator vacuum line hook up. This is what I have so where does the line go?

Dick, look for my email on a related matter.

The Super Turbine used a Vac Modulator. The big car trannies did not have a Vac Modulator thru '64, but they started using the TH400 in '65. The GTO of course used the Super Turbine so always needed the Vac line.

Carl, no fair, I don't have such a car!

Your pic shows the Center Carb. Dist Vac hose connects to the nipple off the LH side. The plug stays in place unless you have A/C. Not the vac source for auto trans.

Go back to post #3, download the drawing that I posted.

I am 99.9% certain that it reflects exactly how vac was routed from a GTO Tripower to the Vac Modulator.

It is picked up from the LH outlet of the 3 way fitting at the rear of the Front Carb.

You would remove Item 16 Plug to install a hard line for the PB directly to that outlet. The PB vac pipe routes along the left side valve cover, terminates somewhere toward the back and then a vac hose connects from there to the booster check valve.

Usually, you will see the PB arrangement for the Man Trans only, which was connected in a somewhat different manner and used a differed PB vac pipe as a consequence. If a reproduction is offered, I believe it is the Man Trans setup only.

The modulator vac starts at the modulator with a short piece of vac hose. Then a long hard pipe (Item 1) runs up to the RH side of the Carbs, all the way to the front of the Front Carb, then loops around and finally connects to what is called the Vac Extension Pipe Assembly (Item 13) using a Threaded Sleeve Connector (Item 12). From there, a couple bits of hose, a short piece of pipe, and a Threaded Sleeve Nut connects it to the LH outlet of the 3 way fitting at the back of the Front Carb.

Threaded Sleeve fittings were easy and cheap fittings for connecting vac pipes. Pipes were not flared. Tighten the TS fitting and the pipe was held reasonably vac tight. Theoretically, they were also easy to disassemble, but a little corrosion and in short order, they were not coming off without destroying the pipe.

The toughest pieces to track down would be Item 1 (a correctly bent Vac Pipe, IIRC, it was specific to the '65 GTO, the bends and/or length of the one used for the big car somewhat different) and Item 13 (the Extension Pipe Assembly, somewhat easier to find because it was same for big car).

As you view the drawing (which is specific to the big car), note that they show the two different routings for the Vac Pipe, the one I described for the Tripower and the other that routes differently for a non-Tripower. You have to follow it carefully to understand what is being shown.

I too would love to see a complete original setup pic just for reference. But I'm not holding my breath, I have looked before for both the '64 & '65. Yet to come across one.

This is my front carb , I have no Idea where I disconnected the line :o years ago and I mean years ago.:o

Here is the line.
dld posted this engine bay pic (can a 65 be too nice thread) but it was not his car.

60ssstuff, did you delete your last post? You asked about the "big hump" in the line.

Don't know for sure, but I suspect that bend was just to give rigidity to the line.

You mentioned some pix from a '64, I'd love to see them.

I've noted the difference between '64 & '65 before. First off, in '64, only the GTO required the Auto Trans Vac Modulator Pipe, the big car trannies didn't have a Vac Modulator in '64.

Also, at least for a time in '64, the Auto Trans GTO Brass Block had a continuous pipe that ran all the way to the Front Carb fitting. The Trans Vac Pipe and the Power Brake Vac Pipe (or Plug if no PB) connected to the Brass Block. See attached pic.

Refer to Carl's pic of his Front Carb fitting and you will see the short pipe at the Front Carb fitting end that was used in '65. In that case, this short piece of pipe was connected by rubber hose to the Brass Block which had a much shorter piece of pipe sticking out of it than in '64.

The '65 Brass Block (called the Carb Vacuum Extension Pipe Assembly, Item 13, in the illustration I posted) may have been used during '64 as a running change.

If it was, my thought is that the addition of the Vac Hose allowed for some flexibility during assembly that made it easier to connect the Modulator and PB Vac Pipes to the Brass Block, whereas the original '64 solid pipe Extension was too rigid.

Basically, picture the '64 Extension as having a chunk of the pipe cut out in the middle and replaced by rubber hose and you have the '65 arrangement.

I have never found good evidence on an original '64 to know for sure whether the '65 arrangement was ever used in '64 during production, but it seems that only the '65 Extension Pipe Assembly was offered for Service Replacement, for use on both the '64 & '65.

Carl, do you still have the '65 Extension Pipe Assembly?

Do you still have the original Power Brake Vac Pipe?

If you do and could post pix of same, that would be awesome to see. I am convinced the PB Vac Pipe is unique for the Auto Trans setup, a slightly different PB Vac Pipe would have been installed for a Man Trans setup since I do not think the Extension Pipe Assembly was used except with Auto Trans.

That is why it is so hard to find the '64 "long pipe style" Extension Pipe Assembly, there just wasn't a lot of usage since it was a Auto Trans Tripower GTO only part. The '65 "short pipe style" Extension Pipe Assembly is only a bit more common because they would have been found on big car Tripowers too and I suspect Tripower with Auto Trans was a more common combination in a big car than in the GTO.

Revisit on this thread
 

Carl - I was sent these pics recently from a gentleman that owns a 65 Tri-Power / Automatic (YR Code) GTO. As with most YR's this one has been changed to mechanical linkage therefore the large red cap over the brass fitting on back of front carb. This capped side of that fitting went to the vacuum reserve tank located in RH inner fender, but has no use on the mechanical version. As seen in these pics the automatic transmission modulator steel line threads into the big brass block fitting coming off the LH side of the rear carb and wraps around front of carbs and down RH side of intake to transmission. I think both 64 and 65 had this same automatic modulator line. This particular 65 does not have power brakes therefore the big brass block has been factory plugged. If power brakes were used the steel line from the PB booster would thread into this plugged hole. 66 YR's used a different steel line for the transmission.
Carl - Your #21 post and pic shows the correct brass fitting on back of front carb.

Bored Today, so follow-up to revisit
 

Power Brakes - If your Original Tri-Power/Automatic has all of the above AND power brakes then 65 and 66 used a unique (not reproduced) steel line that threaded into the bottom of the big brass block and four bends later attaches back to the rubber hose that connects to the PB booster check valve. I don't know how a 64 was set up with PB.
Pic of 65 below is from a popular GTO book, and 66 is mine.

Hello
 

I just bought the turquoise and white 65 Bonneville four door with factory tripower and 8 lug wheels. It is in very good original condition with only 29800 miles showing, believed to be correct.

I was checking the carbs out last night and found that the front and rear have accelerator pump function but the center does not seem to be working. Also noticed that the secondaries seem to be opened by a vac device.

Looking for advice....I am comfortable taking off the top of the carb and cleaning it and rebuilding the pump....unless there is some good reason not to dig into it.

Also what about that vac actuator for the two extra carbs. Is that a good thing to keep or is it advisable to convert to manual linkages?

Also starter has gone on strike. with a good charge it will not even click when I turn the key to start, though the lights and horn work fine. Any likely hood that the ignition switch has checked out?

I had to smile when I read this comment, Dick, as there was at least one mechanical linkage 64 Tri-Power that came out of Pontiac Motors and was sold to a customer. ;)

That being said, I want to thank you, today, March 28, 2016 for all of your efforts in helping the forum members identify carb pieces, linkage pieces, and vacuum routings.

Your "Curved Linkage" 64 Mechanical Linkage (service replacement) is truly a outstanding effort to help the 64 GTO / 421 Guys go to a Mechanical Linkage on their vehicles and be correct for a show.

Tom Vaught

So is the vac operated secondaries reliable and serviceable if brought up to snuff or should I convert it ti manual secondaries? (mechanical)

Tom Walgamuth

It's most likely that the starter is the problem, not the switch. If you have a good auto electric repair guy around, I'd take the starter off and have him rebuild the starter. Your car is noted for hard starts when the engine is hot. Be sure to buy a very high CCA battery, also.

As for the vacuum linkage on the Tripower---If you intend to keep the car completely stock, stay with the vacuum setup. To make it more drivable, however, I'd change it over to mechanical linkage. The factory-style linkage works fine with your TH400, except for limited clearance for the kickdown switch.

I've attached a picture of a '65 setup restored with mechanical linkage.

Does the 65 still have the starter wire connection on the horn relay on the driver splash shield? Usually a purple wire. If so then use a remote starter button and jump from the battery side of the horn relay to the purple wires. Hit the remote button. If you get some starter action then the switch is the problem. If not then you get to go through the pain of getting the starter out without dropping it on your head. Check first - its a lot easier.

I've come to the conclusion that the culpret is the connection between the cables and the battery. I'm gonna put on new cables.

As for the mechanical linkage Any estimate on the budget for such a conversion?

I noticed today that the linkage for the accelerator pump is broken off on the center carb today so I'll need at least that part to make it work. It looks like the shaft is staked on so I'm not sure how it will come off.

Can you post a picture of the broken part as I might be able to match up a replacement for you.

Tom V.

Tomorrow.

I have 1 i can part with 2 3/16" long x 1 1/8" wide brass with weatherhead marks , same as 60's pictured .

That tri-power looks very nice! Looks like the center carb is bigger than on mine.

We found you were right. The starter had laid down on us. So the Bonnie is starting and running very nicely now.

It still hesitates on take off and the idle seems a little too fast. I suspect the throttle plate is being kept from shutting all the way.

I might consider sending the carbs off to an expert to fettle them and install a mechanical linkage. Any idea what that might cost?

I see no takers on an estimate for the mechanical linkage work. Nobody?

Mechanical Linkage install is fairly straight forward to install by an enthusiast.
Dick B does it for a part time living I believe and he can install the rear shaft that has provisions for a screw to hold on the Mechanical carb lever on a Non Show car deal and may have a orifinal Tri-Power rear shaft to go in a SHOW CAR level resto deal.

Tom V.

lafayette indiana is basically between the two of us, Dick is west of lake Michigan, I am east of lake Michigan in the Detroit area.

I have only seen two cars that I would say have a chance to be a Mechanical Linkage set-up. "From the factory production line", NO, NO, NO.
From the Pontiac Zone Office: Mine and possibly Terry Hunt's set-up but I do not know know if it was actually delivered to a Dealer, like my was (A 'Brass Hat' Vehicle).

Also mine was built with Documented serial # Parts (supplied by the Rochester carb people) directly to the Brass Hat vehicle.

So I totally agree with Dick on this one. NO production line 64 GTOs (with Mechanical Linkage) EVER went down that line.

Tom V.

Thanks Tom! I looked again at the tripower website and it looks like the parts to do the conversion are not expensive at all. Also looks like I could do it. The only trouble is reaching the carbs over the vast fender with my short legs and round belly.;)

Thanks again!

Tom W.

When I first started restoring tripowers, Steve and Chris had not yet started reproducing this stuff, and I had several of these different fittings reproduced (without the Weatherhead markings). Many I made myself (not really that difficult).

Since I no longer have time to restore carbs, probably should take the time to dig out all this stuff and throw it on ebay.

The female inverted flare fittings were challenging, until I found a retired tool and die maker who made me some special taps.

Again, anyone with a hobby lathe and hobby milling machine can make this stuff. To quote an old cliche " it ain't rocket science".

Lots easier today than it once was, thanks to the efforts of guys like Steve and Chris.

Jon.

Thanks Jon!

Tom

I'm looking for a big brass block for the vacuum modulator line if anyone has one.

WHile I'm feeling lucky, I also need a '65 kickdown switch mounted to the center carb.

Message Dick Boneske, he probably has that brass fitting.

It sounds like you may have a ‘65 Tri-Power with automatic transmission ??

If so post photos as that is a rare breed.

Is this what your inquiring about?

Yes! I have a couple '65 tripower setups (one is original but missing these components) and I'm wanting to install it on a '65 with AC/PS/PB.

Also need the vacuum kickdown assembly for the center carb.

Did '65 tri-power cars with AC have a high idle actuator for when the AC compressor clutch was engaged?

Also looking for the Calfiornia base aircleaners, and while I'm looking, the 3 flame arrestors too..

Here are some pictures of a '65 Catalina setup. Automatic T400 pulls vacuum from the brake booster fitting just as shown above. The " T " fitting on center carb is distributor to drivers side, HVAC to passenger side. I threw in a couple lockdown switch pictures.
Joe

Thanks for the detailed pics. Looks very good. Would GTOs with AC/PS have had the same Tri-power setup as the big cars?

Yes, the GTO used the same setup only mechanical linkage, '65-'66 only. '66 had a bigger center cab and matching manifold. Nothing wrong with vacuum system if its working correctly, you just have to remember that they are slower to release than mechanical linkage ( have plenty of room ahead of you ).

Trust me, I know all about that SLOW release of WOT.