March '64 Car & Driver Test Report
 

Just flipped thru the (in)famous '64 GTO test article and couple things jumped out for me.

Since the article is in B&W, it was never very obvious to me whether the pix in the article were of the Wangers Red car or the long lost Blue car.

The Red car made a name for itself on the street in Detroit after the testing.

But it was clearly the Blue car that the C&D staffers fell in love with, consequently the one that I always felt was most significant.

C&D put over 3000 miles on the Blue car, much of it by Managing Editor John Jerome when he drove with his wife & 3 kids from NYC to Daytona for the performance testing. The article notes that this car had the 20:1 Quick Ratio manual steering option and metallic brake linings.

The Red car had Power Steering and standard content manual brakes. It also was equipped with the door mounted outside LH mirror option.

A pic on the Contents page shows plate no. HJ-4471, this car lacks an outside mirror option, IMO must be the Blue car. An interior shot on pg. 28 shows pedal trim, indicative of Power Brakes. They aren't noted anywhere else in the article, but power brakes were recommended with the metallic linings. The photo could be a "stock" photo, but if it is either car, it would most likely be the Blue car and optioned with Power Brakes.

That would make the engine shot on pg. 30 the Red car since it shows PS & no power brake booster. The top pic on pg. 27 shows the outside mirror, so has to be the Red car.

The lower pic same page has the HJ-4471 tag, likely the Blue car. The pic of the tail end on pg. 25, same tag, likely the Blue car. The exterior photos on pgs. 28 & 29 are also almost certainly all of the Blue car (I seem to recall it is reportedly John Jerome's wife in those pix).

IMO, everything about the article says to me that the Blue car was the star attraction of the article and test.

Then I turned my attention to the separate article beginning on pg. 70, written by Roger Proulx. The story of how he went drag racing at Jim Wangers invite in a GTO they had "just finished tuning" at Royal. It was October, prior to the testing at Daytona.

Proulx describes the car in pretty good detail and it seems it must be the very same Blue car, 20:1 Quick Ratio manual steering and all.

One thing that has always bugged me about the C&D write-ups, both stories claim the car was equipped with the close ratio 4 spd. The Proulx article specifically mentions it being a Muncie close ratio. But the ratios are wrong for a Muncie close ratio. And the close ratio did not become available in the GTO until well after these cars were built.

So I always have believed the info came from Wangers and he was simply mistaken. And probably his confusion has had something to do with the long held but erroneous belief that the code 9 trans was a close ratio.

That aside, there has always been the debate as whether one or both cars at Daytona were equipped with the 421. A good many years ago, Wangers finally "came clean" and admitted to the 421 in the Red car. But there still has been this gnawing doubt in my mind. If the Blue car was 389 equipped, would C&D have been so blown away by its performance? The Red car Manifest shows that Wangers special ordered 3.23 gears for it (3.55 having been standard content with the Tri-Power option until mid year). Whether it also had a 421 at Daytona is almost immaterial. Given the hoped for match racing against a Ferrari GTO, I have always believed Wangers wanted the 3.23 gears for a higher top end speed. The Blue car's forte with the 3.90 gears would be on the drag strip.

And now contempating the results that Proulx obtained, I wonder if anybody can comment about the likelihood that the Blue car almost certainly had a 421 transplant.

Here are his results from his day at "Vets Ville Dragway" in Toledo:

Practice Runs
[email protected]
13.92@106
13.65@108
[email protected]

1st heat against a 421/370HP Catalina
[email protected] (the Cat went up in tire smoke did a [email protected]

2nd heat against a '62 Galaxie 406CID, 4.86 rear, etc.
Proulx made all kinds of mistakes, including per Wangers, unlocking the rear when he had to back up and because he didn't spin the tires again, didn't lock it up again (does that make any sense for a cone type locking diff?)
[email protected] (caught napping and beaten by the Ford's [email protected])

Now maybe I'm nuts, but do those times seem realistic for a '64 389 (on cheater slicks) even for a Royal Bobcat prepped GTO?

At Daytona, they claimed a 12.8@112 on slicks, a best of 13.1@115 on the stock red lines. Those were unbelievable enough but variously attributed to quick stopwatches or other uncontrolled factors.

But Proulx obtained his times as an apparent drag racing neophyte at an actual track, not by stopwatch.

Could a '64 GTO be that quick with same set-up and a 389? Or should Proulx times have made it obvious the Blue car was 421 powered?

Wasn't there in Daytona, and so only know what I've been told and think we've traded posts on same? Haven't heard anything different since.

Though I did ask Mr. Wangers if the smoke was an indication that the red car was blowing the motor in the p.27 pic (can see the power antenna, too), and he said that was tire smoke during the acceleration runs conducted on the Daytona straightaway.

He also added that it blew up on the road course after the timed sessions were complete.

Scott and I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Davis (Jr.) in Virginia last year. He told us the red car was the acceleration car, had axle tramp and was "the fiddle".

Roger Proulx was a writer at McManus, who also penned "There's a Tiger loose in the streets." A pretty cool headline from the era.

The red car (now Tenney's) had a 421, but I don't believe the blue car did. It was not unusual to see '64 GTO's with the Bobcat treatment running mid 13's at over 105. I know from first hand experience as I had to race against a few of them at the drag strip when my car was new. With some massaging I got my 389 down to 13.05 at about 105. I got my 400 down to 12.65 at 109 with a "744" cam and the HO exhaust manifolds.

By the end of the season we had our 389 powered '64 GTO running 12.90s in full race trim (slicks and headers). Our tow car, a '64 Lemans with a 421, was reportedly "quicker than the race car" ;)


I would agree with OMT's assessment of 13.50's for a "Bobcatted" street/strip equipped 389 car, which would make 13.60s/13.70s for a "novice" driver about right.

Any underhood/engine shots of the blue car? I'll bet there are several of us here that could distinguish between a 389 and 421 given the correct photo.

K

And - John - I appreciate the insights on which car might be which in the photos.

I have a project cookin' and need to distinguish between the red car and the blue car; your notes may prove to be helpful.

K

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point?

My car was bone stock, and at a good track it ran 13.90 at 101.12. I had 5" cheater slicks that would go 20,000 miles on the street, and I installed "cut outs". That was with an M-20 and 3.23 gears. I had one time slip for 13.70, but I'm not sure I believe it was correct. I was not in a position to modify the car as it was my family car and work transportation.

Jim, how long before you started massaging it? Would be cool, at least for me, to learn about the progression of things while the car was still pretty new (first couple years?), when you did them, and how much they helped. How long did it take to go from 13.90 to 13.05, were you still using it as transportation? Was that all with the 3.23 gears? Did you do the Bobcat mods? Stuff like that. Or did the mods come much later after it was retired from commuter duty?

The GTO v. GTO event was fun, John. The day before leaving to attend, I was informed that Bernie Carl's 250 GTO - which I had been told would be participating - was to be replaced by a replica. Tough to do an accurate GTO v. GTO, but the car was a pretty nice copy and the owner a really good fellow. Was told initially we'd do some runs for fun on a neighboring airstrip that never materialized, but we did go on a fun run or two around town. Almost ran out of gas, in fact! All in all a great time, and Jim Wangers was a hit with the Ferrari folks!

I think by "fiddle", David E. meant "ringer", or "cheater", or something not above-board. He made mention of the event in his 08/10 Car and Driver column.

Car and Driver is the only test that featured the red car, I believe. Though there are shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding.

Daytona testing took place December 26th thru 29th, per Mr. Wangers' book.

I'm told the M-20 was replaced with an M-21 in the red car. And that 3.90's were installed at the same time (along w/the 421) - and this is how the car went to Daytona. I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Would guess Jim M. has checked for a blue car manifest. Jim W. says it was a pilot car w/no VIN. It was built initially to help sell the GTO program - and care was taken to make sure everything fit just right and was screwed together properly. This was the one he wanted Car and Driver to spend some extended time with.

GREAT thread!!! Keep the good stuff coming. Yes, I too want to know what it took to make a "new" GTO go from high to low 13's. Very interesting to hear from those who were "there" on day one and doing it!!

Is this the same red GTO?

GTO vs GTO

Remember the 84 repeat of the GTO VS GTO article?
They couldn't get the Pontiac GTO faster than about 14.x something?
The 389 2bbl could probably do better than that.

:D

Yes. Posted some other stuff on it here over the course of time as caretaker, thus far ...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...=127913&page=1

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point? [/QUOTE]

1) My documentation for my 64 GTO also shows a 3.23 gear ratio initially installed BUT a 3.90 gear ratio was in the car when I received it.

2) I believe Jim W when he said the Blue car was a Pilot Car but I have a issue with the No VIN deal. By law, all vehicles produced and on the road (even in 1964) were supposed to have VIN #s, even "test mules".

3) The "Blue Car" was supposedly destroyed in a fire many years ago.
Funny thing is, I have heard "rumors" over the years from very good sources that the car was not destroyed.

4) I was told by one of these "sources" that he knew where the car actually was stored. Insurance Fraud is a serious crime, even today, but how could an insurance company go after a company that went bankrupt and who would really care if the car "re-appeared" at some point. All of the experimental engines were supposed to be destroyed too.

5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.

You have to take these comments with a grain of salt but the comments were made while I was helping Greg S work on Bill Sherman's (now Tenney's car) with Milt S for drag strip work and the "Sources" were present.

Tom Vaught

This will take some time to go through all of the details (and try to remember them correctly). I will also mention some of the problems/failures. For the first four or five years I did not do much to the car. It never had the Bobcat package, but later on it probably had something equivalent. I first raced it at San Fernando, which was at about 1000 feet and had bad air and traction. Absolutely bone stock (Red Lines and all), the best I could get was 14.90 at about 96. One day I borrowed a set of cheater slicks and ran 14.34 at about 97. This was the first year I owned the car. In late '64 I moved to the South Bay area of LA and Lions became my home track. The air was much better there, but the starting line was still a challenge with the limited tire I had. That's where the car ran 13.70 at 101.12, but it was typically in the high 13's. It was very inconsistent with the vacuum linkage as there was no "part throttle" to manage traction, but it ran as well as the mechanical linkage when you could get it to hook up. During that era I updated to the mechanical linkage, added an exhaust bypass in front of the mufflers, and I put in slightly larger jets in the tri-power. I never had the heads off, the distributor was not worked on (it had never been removed) and I did not have adjustable lifters. The valve train geometry was also bone stock, and lifters predictably floated at 5600 RPM.

In '68 or '69 I decided to do a valve job, which grew into doing the short block as well. I won't go over all of the gruesome details of that engine, but I made the mistake of believing what was in the hot rod magazines. I "improved" the car to 14.34 at about 95 mph. I later found out that a single pattern cam (Isky 280) was a mistake on a Pontiac, so I bought what I thought was a 744 cam directly from Pontiac. It turned out that they had the wrong cam in the box: it was letter "E" instead of an "H". Even with the upgrade to 3.90 gears, it ran no better than my first failed rebuild. By that time I was fortunate enough to run into a very knowledgeable Pontiac guy. I bored the block 0.040", got a real 744 cam, and did some minor cleanup to the 1968 #16 heads that I used. Real compression was still about 10.5. This was the configuration when it ran 13.05, and I think the MPH was about 105. I forgot to mention that my "hop up" also consisted of adding a Holley 3310 and an Edelbrock EP4B aluminum manifold. I then switched back to a tri-power ('66 version) - with no other changes - and ran 12.90. I'll continue the progression of performance improvements in later posts. One thing I will say is that after my first failed "hop up", I never made another improvement that did not better the performance.

Thanks for posting, OMT. That's the kind of story I never get tired of reading. I've always been a "history buff"!!

I've got to jump in here just because of John V's original post mentioning some times reported of 13.1 @115 on red lines. Although in John's usual effort to be factual he does raise some question of the watch accuracy. Uniroyal red lines (if I remember)became "Tiger Paws" and part of a lot of advertising. But mine (out of Pontiac in January of 64) were junk. Any tiger with paws with that little traction would starve. You could burn them all the way through first, most of the way through second, about half way through third and still have some left for fourth. And I had a 4 barrel. I had to go to cheaters to do anything at all. I was probably not the best driver and only occasionally broke into the 14's with a 3.23 4 speed and 4 barrel.

I can believe OMT on 14.9 on redlines as he had a tri power. I don't know if all plants built with Uniroyals or not. There were other manufacturers making red lines. But I remember one Sunday at Dragway 42 west of Akron when this guy with a tripower (and maybe still the 3.55) signed in to race. He prepped by pulling his hubcaps after his buddy and their girl friends got out of the car. He did a single pass in the high 13's on street tires, put on his hubcaps and left. Didn't show up for the second round. Never saw him again. I guess he just had to know.

Don't know what brand of tires he had. Maybe Atlas Bucron. But calling Uniroyal red lines "Tiger Paws" took a lot of balls even for the advertising department.

Mr. Wangers' response ...

"...when the "Red Car" was built, it was selected from a group of Sport Coupes already on the Assembly Line, scheduled for Dealer Stock. It was then transferred to the Engineering Garage where the proper equipment was installed."

I've been inspired by the Car & Driver GTO story
 

I also have a 45B block, Bart. Like Minds

Tom Vaught

[/QUOTE]

5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.


Tom Vaught[/QUOTE]

Unless, Tom, the shots of the blue car were press/publicity stills, and the engine shots are of a different car. I don't have the magazines, though recall it was not a p/s car - which would rule out the red car and, possibly, rule in the blue car. Also, seem to remember the engine as being not too fresh in appearance, with kind of a funky throttle linkage. There was also a shot of the underside of the car with a leaky shock, or something.

Anyone have a copy? Can these pages be located via the Keith decimal system, perhaps?!

Guessing the blue car was #'d somehow, btw. Though, per "Glory Days", it did not have a "production VIN".

Jim says he kept quiet about the 421 all that time because he enjoyed the controversy. I also think he had a great deal of respect for John DeLorean, and knew how to keep a secret (remember those days?!).

Although ...

Once he came clean on the red car, why not own up to the blue one, as well?

I did once ask him if he knew of any other factory-equipped 421 GTO's, and he said he didn't - though would not have been surprised if there were others.

My '64 came out of the factory with 3.90 Safe-T-Track, metallic manual brakes, manual steering, 750X14 Uniroyals, wide ratio 4 speed and Carter AFB. Showroom stock with Hoosier recap slicks, it ran [email protected] mph the first time I ran it at Union Grove Drag Strip.

In 1965, I installed a '62 Big Pontiac Tripower with mechanical linkage (Ansen ball bearing crap linkage), Doug's 3-tube headers, milled heads .035", disconnected the vacuum advance, put weaker mechanical advance springs on the distributor along with a bushing to limit total advance to 34 degrees, and put Isky Polylocks on the rockers so the lifters could be adjusted to the end of their travel. I put an Air Lift bag in the right rear spring to equalize starting line traction. The best I ever ran with the 389 in this configuration was 13.29 @ 109.75 mph. I drove the car to work every day, as it was the only car I had then, similar to OMT at that time.

I have to comment quickly on the "weaker mechanical advance springs" -

Remember those cloth hand towel machines that were in the men's rest room of the day (the ones that were a continuous loop)? You'd give them a little tug like a window shade, and they would present the next section of "clean" towel for your use.

Dad and his buddies discovered that there were little springs inside those, that were perfect for replacing the mechanical advance springs in the distributor.

He said, at one point, you couldn't find a bathroom in Pontiac or at Chevrolet Manufacturing where the towel rack worked. They'd just go "bzzzzzttttt" and the whole length of towel would end up on the floor......

:p

We were pretty much in the same line of thinking, as far as hop up tricks, as what I've seen here. Atlas bucrons were the tire of choice around here, unless you could run an M&H tire -

The only tricks I haven't seen mentioned yet are (a) reworking the hydraulic lifter, essentially creating a "solid" lifter, in conjunction with locking nuts and (b) running a thin fan belt in deep groove pullys.

The combination of the above would allow Dad to shift at 7000 rpm. We had a 7 grand Sun tach in the car and he would shift as the needle would go off the face.

K

Re: Photos - Doesn't ring a bell. I can check around though.

I'm struggling a bit with the VIN question.

Do the photos clearly show the blue car with a regular Michigan plate? If the rules back then were the same as today, then the only way to regular plate the car would be if it had a saleable production VIN. Anything else would require the use of a Manufacture's plate.

I might be able to prove this out. I know some of the Design Studio cars, driven by Harley Earl and Bill Mitchell as daily drivers, did not have VINs. Let me find some old photos and see how those cars were plated.

K

Keith, you have that March '64 PHR, you shared the images with me a couple years ago. I had forgotten until Tenney reminded me about the article.

Actually two articles in that issue. 1st detailed the Bobcat kit, 2nd was test of Blue car. Unfortunately, no way to know if this test was done before or after Daytona.

My guess is before. Assuming the PHR test was done in Detroit, Tenney tells me the Daytona testing was 12/26 to 12/29, makes sense given the weather in Daytona then plus other evidence.

We know that Roger Proulx drag raced in October, just after Royal completed prepping a GTO per his article. I assume that was the Blue car, it was definitely not the Red car which didn't get built until Nov. and was PS equipped.

Assuming the PHR test was done in Detroit, the likelihood that it was tested before Daytona vs. after is based on what I see in the pix. I know there wouldn't always be snow on the ground in January, but the conditions look more like Nov/Dec to me. If Proulx drove the Blue car as I believe he did, then the PHR article likely details the Bobcat installation done in Oct and the driving test conducted sometime thereafter but before the car went off to NYC to be tested by C & D staff. JMO. Remember, the C & D article says the manual steer (presumed Blue car) was driven from Detroit to NYC, then driven by the entire staff over the course of 10 days BEFORE John Jerome drove with his family to Daytona. That means the Blue car must have left Detroit by 12/15, maybe a day or 2 earlier.

Pertinent pics attached. Note the chalk "W" on the firewall, code for the Nocturne Blue exterior paint? I think so.

So do you see a 421 in these pix?

The 3rd pic is the 1st page of the separate Test Report article, shows the HJ-4471 with the Royal plate frame, same as seen in the C & D article. I believe this is the Blue car, the subject of the Bobcat treatment discussed in the other article (the article was intended to be generic in some respects, but I believe specifically shows the Blue car undergoing the Bobcat installation).

The PHR Test report says this car had already turned a [email protected] on cheater slicks at a drag strip and C & D said they got a best of 12.8@112. The times seem all over the map to me. What do you race experts think? If the PHR pix show a 421, did the Blue car go to Daytona with a 421 and are the times indicative of that or not?

OMT makes a good point about the difficulty of managing traction with the factory vac secondaries. The Bobcat treatment employed mechanical linkage. But he also says times were just as good vac linkage if the car would hook.

I sure don't know, just trying to figure out if the Blue car likely did or didn't have a 421 when C & D drove it 3000 miles and then gushed about it.

The engine shown in both pics with the "W" chalked on the firewall looks like a 389 to me. The bores don't look big enough. The head gasket is in the perfect position to block out the area around the back of the block, though. Any other opinions? 389 or 421?

Those are 421 valve reliefs in the first photo,not 389.421s,are deeper than 389,s. Thats how the 389 and 421,s have the same compression ratio,with the same head.The piston of the 421 has at least twice the volume of cc,s taken out of it,as everybody knows that the 4 inch stroke,and .030 overbore would yield a higher compression ratio with the same cylinder head cc.

John you need April 64 Speed and Custom to see the transfer lug or pyramid, page 26, upper left. This is the same Bobcat build but includes a different view. Also note the 6550 fuel pump. (both in your first attachment and page 23 of S and C)

There should be one more picture (of the guy whose arms you see installing the passenger side head), installing the driver's side head
on the same "W" marked car/ engine in one of the Cars/ etc magazines.

The picture is taken from the passenger side so you can clearly see that they were not installing 421 SD heads on the engine, (or in these photos) BUT, you also can clearly see the "Pyramid" on the block of the 421 engine.

The block in your attached article is also straight across (on the passenger side) at the gasket surface at the front of the block, another clue of a 421 engine. A 389 engine has a cast in pocket in that area.

Another comment, 421 Pistons and 389 Pistons look "different" on the top of the piston surface.

here is a link to a 389 type valve relief "cluster"
http://store02.prostores.com/servlet...Pistons/Detail

Look at the photos in the article and you will see the pistons more closely resemble a 421 piston.

Tom Vaught

X2

Tom Vaught

Dyam! You got good eyes to be able to see .030" difference in the bores from several feet away! (;>)

Tom Vaught

Again, some good eyes and memory of the Pyramid, and the other clues.

Tom Vaught

ps Like I said, I knew Jim was fibbing for years on at least one of the red or blue cars.

Dang! I need to tighten up on my organizational skills....

You don't happen to know where my car keys are, do you?

(lol)

Sounds like the concensus of the group is "421".

Seems kind of funny for them to lay it out there for all to see -

K

I don't think at the time at they thought anyone would be looking closely at the pictures 47 years later. The funny thing is those magazine articles were not in mainstream magazines of the time Like Hot Rod or CD. At one time I would buy any magazine I could find on the older Pontiac engines/ road tests at the swap meets and put them away as reference materials.


Tom Vaught

I used to do the same thing.When i was in junior high i would go to this guys house and he would sell me these old car magazines for 50 cents apiece.I got a lot better bang for my buck than buying new mags,and i got to read about my favorite cars.Learned alot,and knew Wangers was full of it long before he ever admitted to the 421 swap! I cant really blame him though. He was just pumping some more excitement into the cars we have all come to love!

I have nothing but good to say about Jim Wangers and the way that he marketed the 64 GTO for Delorean.

Jim ran a "Ringer" in on these boys and they bit hook, line, and sinker. If you look at your old magazines, people could buy 4.5" stroke cranks for Pontiac 389 engines in 1962. That made a big Pontiac "389" engine.

What Jim did was run a true "Ringer" on these guys. Very very hard to spot unless you were into Pontiac engines the way we are today.
He probably had a guy like "Birdie" porting his 389 cylinder heads the way that Milt S had "Birdie" do the heads on Tenney/ Sherman's car.

Tom Vaught

$5.00/hr was good pay back in the 60s. You race someone for $50 you had better know what you were doing, especially if you were racing all night.

What I meant by press/publicity stills is illustrated here. In that we see the same stock shot of the blue car used in two different articles ...

War Eagle, can you or somebody else post the pic from the April '64 Speed & Custom showing the better engine shot with the visible transfer lug "pyramid"?

I've been working out a time line based on what was written back in '63 & '64 vs. the recollections that were published many years later.

Lots of things that don't add up.

For example, JW said in an '89 MCR interview that he stormed into Delorean's office armed with the unfavorable review published by Hot Rod and walked out with two order blanks, implying the Blue car and Tenney's Red car resulted from those order blanks.

But Roger Proulx wrote in his article published March '64 in C & D that JW invited him to drag race a GTO that Royal had just finished prepping in OCTOBER. And it seems 100% certain he drove the same Blue car that went to C & D in NYC and on to Daytona.

The Red car Manifest shows a Date Produced of 11/2/63. The Blue car had already been bobcatted by then.

The Hot Rod mag report on the GTO appeared in their Dec '63 issue (hey Keith, your keys are laying on your copy of that mag, LOL!)

I don't think that mag would have hit the newsstands until after the Red car was already built and if Roger Proulx drove the Blue car in Oct., definitely was not out til after the Blue car had already been prepped by Royal.

The kicker is that my read of the Hot Rod review was FAVORABLE to the GTO, not the "bad press" that it was made out to be.

JW has written that the Blue car was equipped with 3.55 gears and an open diff. Clearly, if the pix are believed, this car was equipped with the Safe-T-Track locking diff.

And multiple articles published in the day starting with the Proulx article all say it had a 3.90 axle. Now I doubt that the writers/testers had any way to know what axle ratio was in the car (not indicated on the Window Sticker), so had to rely on what JW told them I would think. So do we believe what was in the articles or what was said many years later? I sure don't know, but it makes sense to me that the Blue car would have had 3.90 gears, why else tell people that it did?

JW has also claimed the testing was done with the Red car. But there is an interesting retrospective that appeared in the January '75 issue of C & D, written by David E. Davis. I bought that mag new in the infancy of my GTO obsession and still have it. David E. writes that John Jerome drove the "test car" down with his family and Wangers drove a "back-up GTO" down from Detroit. He mentions what fun they had in Daytona, at one point drove over Jerome's camera bag, busted the rear window in the rented Ford convertible, and "lunched the engine in the back-up car".

Twice in the '75 retrospective he refers to the "back-up" GTO and called the Blue car driven down by Jerome as the "test car". Why?

He took credit for writing most of the original article that was published with "help" from Jerome.

JW has said the testing at Daytona was done with the Red car. Many years after, he "admitted" the Red car went to Daytona with a 421.

But the David E. piece written in late '74, many years prior to JW's admission, seems to purposefully point to the Blue car as the car that was tested. Why call the Red car a "back-up" and mention the blown engine if it was the primary car tested in Daytona.

One further fact appearing in the original '64 C & D article. The Price as tested is given in the box with the acceleration results and technical data about the car as tested.

The Price as Tested is $3377.91. This is pretty close to what I am able to calculate for the Blue car with the options described for it in the article.

The Red car stickered for about $250-$300 more than the Blue car, not even close. If the acceleration test results were for the Red car, why was the price of the Blue car indicated?

The article does say they "ran dozens of acceleration tests on the two cars." Doesn't differentiate anywhere between the two of them, so if they saw any performance difference, it wasn't mentioned. They did talk about the difference obtained between the red line tires (higher mph) and drag slicks (lower et).

Both cars featured the Bobcat kit, I don't think there is any doubt about that. I suspect they also featured identical drivetrains. It would make sense that a "back-up" twin was there in case of a blown engine. Logically, you would not have wanted C & D to blow up the 421 car and wind up testing a 389 and reporting less impressive nos.

If the photographic evidence is clear that the engine in the Blue car was a 421, I would conclude C & D took the data it obtained from that car and reported it. No doubt, the Red car performed just as well until the motor went lame.

I believe the Blue car was built weeks ahead of the Red car. But I just don't think it was a non-VIN'd pre-production model. Calling it a "pilot" car really changes nothing, my understanding from those days, "pilot" cars were just the first very early production cars that came down the line at a snails pace while everybody learned their jobs and worked out the kinks before the line speed was sped up. But I doubt it was a "pilot" car either. Pilot production would have been long over by 9/11/63 when VIN 824P003147, one of the early Zone Announcement GTOs, was produced.

Somewhere between that VIN & the Red car VIN is likely the Blue car VIN. Sure wish Jim M. would spend the time to turn up the Manifest record for the Blue car, might at least tell us if the 3.90 axle was special ordered for it.

Just to keep all this in perspective: C/D did not blast the GTO through the Chrondeks at Detroit (or anywhere else) and did no more tech inspection than filling it with the highest octane premium available. Their testing used a stopwatch and fifth wheel, and anyone thinking those were scientific, repeatable numbers ... not so much. Remember, this is the same team who reported a Viper-like 3.9 0-60 (and 13.80 1/4 mile) for the '65 2+2, which Wangers freely admits to being utterly bogus in methodology.

To be sure, the GTO's were prepped to the nth degree, and it seems rather possible that at least one and maybe both had 421 engines, either by substitution at the Engineering Garage or at Royal. As Darksiders know, the first 421 blocks were transfer lug-less 425A 389 blocks that were simply broached an extra .250 in the mains for the larger crankshaft; a simple overbore provides the rest of the displacement. Recall also that Smokey was cutting down 421 cranks to 3.00" in '62, well before the hot shoes from C/D uncorked the test cars. As the great crew chief Walter "Bud" Moore once grumbled: "I got five ways to make a P&G meter read anything you want. Three of them everybody know, two of 'em I'm keeping for myself."

So, were those engines Bobcat 389's? Yes, and more. A lot more. Were the test numbers truly accurate, and backed up by an average of 10 runs? Were all the tires on the cars factory fitted, with properly recalibrated speedos? Nope.

Was GTO a lightning bolt to the synapses, with the styling, power, handling, price and image that Detroit had not mustered in one car since the Stutz Bearcat or Jordan Playboy, timed to explode exactly as the first baby boomers reached the age of majority? Yep.

And was it the complete validation of everything that enthusiasts and magazine journalists had been begging for since Day One, a no-holds-barred high-performance automobile with instant credibility and monster capability greater than any unleashed by Detroit to that moment? Yep.

Has anyone since ever created a cultural Tsunami of that proportion, either by accident or design, that still rings absolutely clear to this day? Nope.

There have been faster cars since. There have been better cars since. But there will never, ever be another car with sheer charisma of that first GTO, period. The competition has had 46 years to do something of equal impact and importance... and we're still waiting.

John I do not have a clue on how to do it. However if no one else comes along I will give it a shot. The W on the firewall is the "FLAGGED WANGER" ID. as on the build sheet, the paint code will be on the firewall tag. There are a dozen or so mags from that period and each seem to add a bit more to the first GTO and tests. Maybe a 'sticky' of that list would be appropriate for anyone looking for a good read.(s)

I love your passion for this stuff, John! And knowledge (I can only aspire to one day be "Tenney V."!). Wish I could do more to lend a hand in your quest to get to the bottom of this.

Again, I only "know" what I've read, heard and been relayed to me, fortunately, by people who were there.

And, so ...

I'm told the Red Car was purpose-built specifically for the Car and Driver test. Build dates/test dates indicate this is possible, if not likely. Particularly as it was only used in this one test, I understand.

Both Mr. Wangers and David E. have told me the red car was used for the acceleration #'s. JW stating it was purpose-built for this task. There's a pic of it in the article making a run on the Daytona straight.

It seems the blue car existed, and was used for press work/photos, earlier - as we've seen. Jim told me, and wrote in his book, that it was a pilot car, and was not built/modified in tandem with the red car.

A question I have is why lie at this point? Where's the upside?

Why would Jim finally cop to the 421 in the red car, but not the blue car. Maybe one of the reasons he admitted to the red car after all this time was because so many people had seen it up close w/their own two, and it essentially had already been "outed" for years?

But really, why then would it matter to keep the 421 in the blue car a secret? Once you're busted, who cares?


p.s. maybe Jerome's departure schedule couldn't be coordinated with that of his family, or perhaps he had stuff to tote (granted, how big's a stopwatch?!), hence the plane/rental car combo platter?

Maybe this thread is a good enough reason, actually.

I was thinking it'd be great if the blue car was indeed 421-equipped, as well. Particularly in light of all of the thought, time and effort you've put into your quest, John.

But, if so, what would we be talking about ...?!

The quote that Jim Wangers said about the 1964 GTO was:

"I was standing only 5 feet away from from whoever was holding the stopwatch, and the numbers they were coming up with were unbelievable. The car was good, but not THAT good.....they weren't even burning rubber, yet the acceleration numbers were beyond anything I could do in a GTO. But I wasn't going to stop it...."

"When they came up with a 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds, and 0 to 100 in 11.8, I knew it was time for me to shut up and watch. Our red GTO wouldn't have run from 0 to 60 in 11.8 seconds even if it had been dropped off the top of the Empire State Building."

Here's a pic from Car Life. Notice the same MFG plates (015) were used in the original GTO ad "GTO is kicking up a storm....". Also an engine shot of the same car from Car Life test.

Was this the same red car from the Car And Driver test, or another red one?


http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...z.jpg~original

[QUOTE=MikeNoun;4228027]
Was this the same red car from the Car And Driver test, or another red one?/QUOTE]

Has the underhood light. Looks like no p/b. If there's a p/s pump, it's possible. Don't see one though.

I cant remember without looking it up,but is the code for Nocturne Blue W ?

Yep, W is Nocturne Blue.

My old 65 GTO Coupe had a big B scrawled in crayon on the firewall. Back in the old street racing days of the 70's and 80's, no one wanted a big B on their firewall ("What's that B mean?"), so I sprayed over it when I had the engine out.

My 65 GTO was Charcoal Blue.

My money says different car.

C&D '64: power antenna, spinner hubcaps, door mounted mirror

This car: no antenna, deluxe hubcaps, no mirror.

Also - just noticing that is not a Michigan M plate. California, perhaps?

K

I don't think so. The red car was the one that had "Tag Wangers" on the build sheet, and has no notation on the firewall. Plus, one of the stories posed here is that the blue car was already built and procured for this activity after the fact, so it would not have been destined for Mr Wangers at the time it was going down the line.

I think we are settling on the W being the code for Nocturne Blue. You are correct: it would appear on the cowl tag, but you would not be able to read that code from very far away, especially in the dimly lit assembly plants of the day. That's why the build sheets or build manifests were usually placed in a conspicuous place - to make it easier to read and choose the correct parts. So - a big "W" on the firewall alerts workers the upcoming car is Nocturne Blue, as opposed to black, for example.

(Even today it is difficult to judge colors inside of the assembly plant, both due to the poor lighting or the difference in appearance due to the unnatural/florescent lights).

K

Most of the GTO.s that i have done have had the color code,and interior trim code written in crayon on the firewall.Some were more obvious than others.I vote for the "w" as the color code.