How about the 350's?
 

The car in my avatar came with a factory 305. It's completely drivable but it's a dog obviously. My 455 build is going to take longer than I'd like but I don't want to disable the car either. However....i do have a bead on a dirt cheap '71 350 with 94 heads. I also came across some cheap '69 46 heads locally.

Given the outrageous gas prices, how would the 350 do as far as power & mileage in the meantime? My only Poncho experience was with a 400 about 8 years ago. if it matters, this car only weighs 3200lbs. I already have a 3.23 gear and 200-4R sitting in the garage too.

Plenty of 350 threads here with good info.

Potential is good by most all accounts,and end results will vary based on build specifics same as most any build.

The '69 #46 heads are definitely the better head for a mild performance based 350 cid build,otherwise for a strictly MPG related emphasis the #94 heads would be fine too.

Carb choice will play a big role in the whole MPG scenario.

But like 250-300 FWHP and like 15-16 MPG/AVG should be pretty easy goals to hit with a mild 350 combo in a car like yours.

It's a light car,and the OD trans will help the highway mileage a bunch,thus helping the average MPG numbers some.

That would probably be like a low-15/high-14 second quarter mile if that matters to you.

Good luck with it if you choose to go that route.

Bret P.

It currently has a 2bbl on it but the guy is throwing in an early 4bbl intake and Q-jet with the deal. This car is just a cruiser so reliability is more important that 1/4 mile times. Don't get me wrong though....I do have a lead foot on occasion :D

Put a 204/214 with .420/.443 cam in the SBC 305 with a 4 bbl intake. Wil wake the car up some. The gear will kill any smaller cube engine anyway. Install the 3.23 or 2.42 gear for the future build.

Then build your Pontiac 455 and install it when you are done.

That way you can sell the mod'ed 305 and get a better return on your overall long term investment with the least amount of investment. ;)

Did you mean 3.23 or 3.42:)

I've had a few SS's with the 305HO that had that cam. Even with 3.73's they weren't very impressive. I know throwing a 350 in the car isn't the most cost effective route to go but I want to play around with something in the meantime. I'm already going to be taking the front clip off to coat the frame and install suspension. After that's done I don't want to have the car sitting for another 6 months. I already have a buyer for my 305 too.

I'm just impatient and have a hard time passing up a good deal I suppose.

keep it simple.....

I would reseal the motor and put a new oil pump and timing gear set up on it. electronic ignition and call it good.

That's usually the bare minimal that I'd do to something I plan on driving. I might even look into a cheap Summit cam if need be. The guy I'm getting it from is throwing in an HEI too. The Q-jet will get rebuilt in the process as well.

it's one of those deals where I don't need to drive the car, but I sure would like to this summer. I mean worst case scenario....I'd get stuck driving the Cadillac :D

that is worse case senerio. caddle crapp

WTF is that all about? Are you trying to insult me or telling a lame joke? Hopefully the latter because I treat everyone with respect unless persuaded otherwise.

If you stuck on instaling a Pontiac engine. Make sure you get ALL the brackets. None of the SBC are the same.

Motor mounts?

I would install the 068 cam (We stock it and Melling makes a copy) as you can use the same valve springs, etc. Use a pre 72 4 bbl intake with the Feplro 1233 gasket and go have fun.

Yes..........3.42 gear. . LOL.

get as angry as you want. it was a joke. Thanks for sharing you caddlac alternative on a pontiac website. Your lucky you did not mention f$%d.

I'll take a Ford anyday over a Chevy.:cool:

wtf....
 

you would take a Ford any day over a Chevy? Then why are you on the site lol pretty sure our cars are made by gm, but I could be wrong......:rolleyes:

build the 350 if you can get it cheap and have it running cheap... It's an engine and will respond to all the same hotrodding tricks. Don't expect to get good mileage with it over a larger Pontiac though. 3mpg or less at best in difference.

Be realistic about the costs, add it all up including every nut and bolt you would need to get the 350 in your car. Then look at the cost and consider putting toward the 455 instead, from the beginning if you intend to go that way anyhow.

my advice from experience.

Who cares about the squabbles, we're all gearheads. If it burns gas and tires it's good to me. Get over yourselves.

A better question would be why would you blindly support Chevrolet just because they share the same landlord?

If you knew the history of Pontiac (actually BOP in general) vs. Chevy, you wouldn't have posted such a naive statement.

Geez guys,,,dont trash the fellas thread... :focus:

Yeah,an 068 type of cam is about as large a cam as I'd ever use with the OE pressed studs.

And even then I'd only use the OE low lift versions,not the aftermarket high lift versions,and only with the OE 1.5 ratio rockers.

That's mostly because I dont trust the OE pressed studs very much @ all.

I usually convert all my pressed stud heads to screw in studs and adjustable valvetrain.

That's because I also tend to prefer using good valvesprings with a bit more pressure as a whole too.

I got a low/no budget 350 build like this in my garage right now,it's stock low miles '72 350 shortblock,a good used 068 cam & lifters,with a new timing set,and new oil pump in it,a late model baffled oil pan and a modified OE windage tray,yadda,yadda,yadda.

Have a set of '70 #16 small valve heads for my budget 350 too.
(pretty much the same heads as those '69 #46 small valve heads)

I'm gonna run a TII and either a 3310 holley VS carb or a 4777 650 DP carb on mine.

But I aint gonna be remotely worried about gas mileage on mine.

Also,for the stock port heads,the fel-pro #1233 is a little too big as that is the RAIV port size which is like 1/8" taller than stock,so I mostly use the Mr. Gasket ultra-seal intake set #5848 when using a mostly "stock" port opening.

Mine has the stock points distributor with mallory HD points/condensor,MSD cap & rotor,and the Crane adjustable can & adv. springs.

I'm kinda building it like the 350 H-O's were built.

Those were like 320-330 fwhp engines.

FWIW

Bret P.

Yea I made a joke,it was taken the wrong way I opologied. lets get back on track....
any way...Caddillac..er...ford...er...pontiac 350's...er boat anchors...

In my opinion, no matter what you do with the engine, stick with the Q-Jet. It can come in handy with MPG if tuned correctly. Those tiny primary intakes will stretch your gas out a long way as long as you stay conservative on the pedal.

As far as 350's go, I have had nothing but good luck with my 350 SBC engines in both of my 9C1 Caprices. I had an '87 that I literally sunk under water (don't ask) and it was running a couple of days later with nothing but new spark plugs, wires, and an oil change. I gave it to my Uncle so I could buy my '95 Caprice and it still runs to this day.

I've never owned a 350 Poncho, but I would imagine that they're just about bullet proof. In any case, good luck with your car!

Duly noted Bret, apologies to the OP.

Re: the 350P, it is quite underated and can be a great street engine fr all around perfrmance. They take to simple changes. On example of a simple yet rewarding build was our old 79 TA which went 14 flat consistently with a "thrown together" 73 Block, 76 6X-4 heads, 067 sealed power cam, Performer, 600 holley-vac sec., HEI w/only light springs from a Mr. Gasket kit, elcheapo Cassler 4 tube 1-5/8" $99 headers. 2.25" full Exh w/H pipe, 350 turbo w/B&M kit, stock convertor and 3.08 l/s.

Car was a great driver, dead reliable, good mileage and cruising rpms yet pulled like a freight train from idle to @5000. Longest and flattest torque curve I've had in a Pontiac and we could run ANY gas in it.

I currently have a 350 Pontiac in my car. It would be a good choice to do what you are doing. As mentioned above, you will need ALL the motor mount stuff, and all the brackets, because the 305 is a Chevrolet, and a different trans. The motor mount parts might be the biggest challange...but you will need that stuff for the 455, when that day comes.

Also, as mentioned above, pull the intake, valley pan, and oil pan. Seal it back up, if it's worthy.

Bret, are the 46's the old 350 H.O. heads??? What are the 94's???

The 305 can go in the river.....

I had this fairly good shape 350, out of a wrecked 70 firebird. I performed no machine work on it, valve job, dingleberry hone job, new cam sealed power cs694 (I think?) runs and drives good. Gets around 17-19 MPG, could be better if I took some time to tune it...Don't drive it much...

I did all this in 1991/1992 DON"T screw around and take as long as I have to get the proper engine in the car!!!......LOL

The #7 exhaust lobe had gone flat in my original 400, couldn't drive it any more.

Maybe I missed it but another positive to putting a Pontiac 350 in is when you get everything sorted out putting the Pontiac motor in, everything will then be a direct bolt in when its time to implant your 455.

No,the #46 heads are'nt the old 350 H-O heads.

'68 350 H-O's got the #18 pressed stud/small valve/small chamber heads.
(like 68cc nominal spec IIRC)

The '69 350 H-O's got the #48 screw-in stud/big valve/small chamber heads.

There is some debate about the big valve heads on these small bore 350's,I wont go into details here,but suffice it to say those #48 heads were mostly overkill for a 350 cid engine,and there are some issues to be aware of if one is using the big valve heads on these small bore engines,especially if one is using an aftermarket high lift cam or higher ratio rockers or such.

'68 350 H-O's got the 066 cam for autos,and the 067 cam for the manual trans.

'69 350 H-O's got the 067 cam for autos,and the 068 cam for the manual trans.

HP for the '68 350 H-O's was 320 fwhp.
HP for the '69 350 H-O's was 330 fwhp in the GTO's and 325 fwhp in the firebirds.

CR for the 350 H-O for both years is stated as being 10.5:1,but the factory always rated these engines about .5 point more than they would actually be,so in reality it was more like a honest 10.0:1 engine.

The '69 #46's are actually off a 400 engine,the 290 hp big car version to be precise,those typically have small valves,pressed studs,and a chamber that's stated as being 72cc nominal spec,but like most all 72cc heads they'll typically measure a few CC's more than that on "virgin" heads.

74'ish cc heads on a stock bore 350 will typically net somewhere around 9.5:1 CR.

The '71 #94 heads are just a low compression 350 head,not 100% sure on the cc's of these,but would expect them to be like the later 350 heads and be appx. 89cc "nominal" or somewhere just slightly above that spec,and these too will be pressed stud heads,with the "early" style plugs (13/16" hex w/gasket seats).

CR for the '71 350 is stated as being 8.0:1,and again that's probably fairly optimistic.

Later 350's are rated @ 7.6:1 CR,and that's probably a bit closer to the truth for the low compression 350 engines.

OE spec cam for the '71 350 is the 555 cam.

OE hp rating for the '71 350 is like 250 hp.

HTH

Bret P.

Thanks Bret,
The 94's are probably similar to the 11's on the 70 350's...(my 350 has the 70 #11 heads, comp ratio listed as 8.8:1, real world 8:1....LOL)
There was a thread, a few monthes ago, (Dave),user name 1967Tempest (I think)
he was hunting head gaskets for his 350 in an older Pontiac. Someone reccomended some Victor head gaskets, that fit a 350 bore, not the 400 bore size, (that's all FelPro has for a 350)......bla bla....In all the conversation, someone mentioned to make sure the gasket fits the block bore AND the chamber, to be safe.....

Do the 46's combustion chambers match up w/ the 350 cyl bore, enabling the use of a small bore gasket???? or not...

Thanks again
Jeff
forgive me for barging into this thread topic.....

I know this is not the head you guys are talking about but 73 350's had a 46 head as well. I had a 73 Lemans Sport Coupe 350 with a set of 46's, headers, performer intake and a 3310 vacuum secondary Holley and it ran very well for what it was. If my memory is correct it had screw in studs. This is the only 350P I have ever had but it would sure burn the tires in that big Lemans! I wish I still had that car...

Yeah,mid year in '73 all heads became screw in stud heads,so the late '73 and all '74 350 #46 heads were screw in stud heads,I've had a bunch of those in the past,as I had a few 350 cid venturas from that era,those are decent heads,they're basically a small valve version of the 5C-4 or 6X-4 heads.

If one was gonna toss a 4" stroker crank in a 350 to make a mild 383 combo,those would be a pretty good head to use for something like that,as that would be like 9.0:1 then as the longer stroke crank adds "swept area" and thus nets a higher CR even with the 89'ish cc heads.

That very well may be the "next step" for that low budget 350 build of mine.

But I dunno,I'll cross that bridge when the time comes.

FWIW

Bret P.

That topic has come up in the past,but there still does'nt seem to be a solid concensus on that deal just yet.

I have'nt run across it in the past,but honestly that does'nt mean anything,there could be numerous reasons why one might not notice that sorta problem.

I agree that it's a good idea to watch for that sorta thing,but how one chooses to deal with it will probably vary on a case to case basis.

I cant tell you head X will fit with gasket Y though.

I have a set of '70 small valve #16's here,and when I get around to buying some headgaskets for my build,I guess I'll see for myself where I stand on that deal,I know this though,the Fel-Pro head gaskets are'nt even in the running for that small bore engine,honestly I have'nt even really decided on just what head gaskets I'm gonna use yet,seems to me he had to hunt down those Victor-Reinz 350 head gaskets,so availability may play into those sorta choices as well.

Ace @ PPR is always a good source of info for this sorta 350 based stuff,and he usually chimes in on threads like this,so maybe he'll drop in and give his :2cents: on the subject.

FWIW

Bret P.

Thanks, Bret,
Just wondering. I sold auto parts for 13 years, even aside from that, we all need to pay extreme attention when building an engine. If the sealing ring for the combustion chamber is exposed in the bore/chamber, that deal ain't gonna fly, unfortunately some folks don't have the knowledge of that....I'm still learning...LOL

My 350 has the big bore Felpro gaskets on it, w/ the 11 heads, I've had as much as 44 degrees total timing in it, w/o even a ping one. (I massaged EVERYTHING in this 350 before assembly, polished the stock piston tops, removed all the sharp edges in the comb. chambers.) My 11 heads have a Jim Hand port job, w/ a Cliff style ported intake, in 1991, (I have a friend that builds engines, his input, a Chevy guy, imagine that) I might do a couple of mod's (did I mention cheap) to my essentially stock 350, since all my hobby money is paying for gas, at the moment. My major thumper engines will still HAVE to wait.
Thanks again.
Jeff

Pontirag
 

You sure seem to be in the habit of saying just the WRONG thing and nothing helpful to the post.

I read your profile and it is admirable if true - just can't tell from your spelling and grammar.

Why don't you spend more time thinking about what you type and treating people that don't know you and your twisted sense of humor with the same respect that you would like to receive.

Or better yet, if you have nothing useful to post, DON"T POST!

It doesn't take a Master Degree to figure that out. Just a little common sense and common courtesy.

YOUR PROFILE:

Biography
Masters Degree/ Aerospace industry,Vocational Educator, Aircraft Mechanic,
Location
Bisbee, AZ USA
Interests
Pontiac Convertibles
Occupation
Aircraft Mechanic/Instructor


And just to make sure that i was talking out of my arse and getting the wrong impression of you, I went through all of your posts. They were about as useful as these last ones.

I haven't posted as many times as you but I tried to return as much help as I has received.

FYI: Do yourself a favor and do what I did long ago and add him to your "ingnore" list.

:heh:

Bret P.

i had a 1970 low compression, #11 headed,q-jetted, 350 in my GTO for a year while i built my 455.
it ran great. pulled pretty hard too, i shoulda kept it for backup...

Doh,make that "ignore". :doh:

Damn I gotta start watch my spelling more closely,been in too much of a hurry posting here lately.

:bolt:

Bret P.

Same problem here as well, except it started when I began using my iPhone to access te site. Damn small screen and tiny keyboard! Or is it the old eyes?!

Its not a question of ignoring me but when to ignore me. your choice. The comment was intended to be funny and certainly not "twisted". Not when you consider we are on a pontiac web site and somebody starts talking about driving a caddlilac. I thought that was funny.

My comment was not intended to be offensive. and it was not directed at a person but at a comment .
I apologiesd to the one person who had the right to be offended. thats more courtesy than is common. as for my contributions ..thank you. Its not often people take the time to look past what bothers them and see the real contributions others make. I got over tryin to win personality contests long ago. Not every one shares our points of view.

anyway... RE: the pontiac 350. Since PY is footing the bill for this lets stay away from fords, chevy's and caddilac.

the personal data is not current

Don't sweat it. I had a few beers in me and get fired up pretty quickly. I was in the aviation field myself some years ago. CH-46E helicopter mechanic for the Flightline and Phase crew while I was in the Marine Corps. I hope my mentioning of helicopters and Marines on a Pontiac site isn't a problem either :D

Let's move on!

helocopters no, marines..... well I dont know. Funny you mentioned beers. I gett pretty fired up...as a rule... and before I come on board here.

Screamingchief. sorry to go to so much effort to put me on your "ingnore" list. I cant recall ever PM'ing you. I feel bad that you went to all that trouble.

I'm trying to think how I made you so angry.

Screamingchief, you are the one who sells brake parts?

East.. your still a bit new here so it will be a while before you see who knows what they are talking about. I would develope a thicker skinn when taking offence at what is said to others.

any way.. where were we? Marines, beer, ford caddleac.

Nope,your probably thinking of scarebird.

I dont sell squat to anyone,except for the occasional odds/ends that I might sell in the parts for sale forums like most anyone/everyone else here does.

Angry is'nt the right word for it.

Annoyed would probably be a far more appropriate word for it... :Ithink:

As for precisely why you're on my ignore list,let's just say that I have my reasons,and as such I dont feel remotely compelled to explain nor justify my reasoning to anyone here,and yeah,that even includes you.

Besides it takes almost no effort to do such,,,it's real easy to use that ignore deal...

By all means feel free to put me on your ignore list,wont hurt my feelings any. :-ohwell:

I know for a fact that I'm not about to win any PY popularity contests either. :rolleyes:

Damn sure not gonna lose any sleep over any of that sorta dreck though. :sleep:

I mostly just try to stick to answering the questions as they're asked,and I try to keep my comments mostly "on topic" as much as possible these days.

But sooner or later here,,,some drama finds it's way to most everyones doorstep...

Even if you try to use tools like the ignore list avoid some of that sorta stuff.

FWIW

:focus:

Bret P.

IIRC those #11 heads have slightly bigger chambers than the earlier 350's had,from what I can deduce those are something like the later model '73-'74 #46 heads that were used on the 350's,or the 5C-4 or 6X-4 350 heads,so if I had to guess those are like 89'ish cc's chambers.

Pontiac rated those @ like 8.8:1 on the '70 low compression 350/400 engines,but they typically rated all engines about a .5 point higher than they really were,so that would be like 8.3:1 or so CR by most accounts.

Did you CC your heads?

Just curious.

Bret P.

I did not cc the heads, although I have the stuff to do that.

I acquired a set of 17 heads Friday. They are listed as 9.2:1, I believe for a 68 350 2 Bbl setup. Even though they are small valve, press in stud, I can deal w/ that, I have resources to improve that. The place where I bought them had a set of 46's and 11's. The chambers on those looked pretty close to the same. THe 17's looked a fuzz smaller.

I had a fellow Pontiac enthusiast w/ me.He's 62 years old, and has a lot of Pontiac knowledge
The problem w/ 350 Pontiac stuff, is nobody much uses the engine (or ever did) and retaining knowledge for those engines is not a common thing. Was surprised I found some heads close to what I was looking for.

My build (rebuild..LOL) is just a street driver. I'm going to put a 3.08 gear back in it. I'm thinking of putting a 068 cam in it, mostly because I have one, may not be the best choice. Jim Hand port job, keeping it on the conserveative side, being a 350. headers, TH 350, iron intake, Q-jet. I'm just trying to pep it up some, w/ a shallow budget....
Jeff

Let us know what you find out... I believe you'll find that these heads are over 80cc

I'll be measuring the 17's, ASAP, it'll be a while, my burrette, and stand are at my dad's shop, an hour away.

LOL, I just read on Wallace Racing, they list the 68, as 8.6:1. 265 HP, maybe low comp 2Bbl to run on low octane (regular) gas???

I wouldn't think a 67 350 would be lower comp and a 70 350. My motor book lists the 68 350 as 9.2:1...Time will tell...

I have all of my parts collected to swap a pontiac mill. I'm going with 301 mounts from a GP to make it a seamless deal. Trans will be a 200-4R. I've had a few people try to discourage me from using it but I WANT THAT OD! I do a lot of expressway driving and a 3 speed won't cut it, especially since we have the highest gas prices in the nation. I know it needs to be built to withstand any amount of torque and that will be addressed when the time comes. I've already priced parts and looked into it's weaknesses. I already have all the linkage from a Monte SS too. I have a posi carrier & 3.23's waiting to be installed as well.

I know a lot of the guys on here build their cars for track time too. My car will never see a drag strip. I'm not worried about making my car hook, launch, or ever run low 11's.

I have a buyer for the 305 and he's giving me more than what I'll pay for the 350! Otherwise I'd be finding a boat owner to give it to.

g-bod,
I was wondering if you know what year 350 you are buying??? I am assuming that 68-69 350's only have the 2 motor mount bolt holes in the block (Assuming, because I don't know for sure). Your motor mount set up would need the 70 and up 5 bolt block...Jujst a thought....

It's a '71 Block with 94 heads. He also has a '73 with 46's. I picked the '71 and he's throwing in a non-egr 4bbl intake, extra Q-jet and an HEI.

No luck on finding that intake. I'll just use the one from my 455 since I'm going to run it as is.

I hate to disillusion some of you guys, but I owned a '76 Grand Prix with a 350 Pontiac/TH400/2.92:1. It was a 2-barrel motor that consistantly delivered 19-21mpg.
I was in my early 20's back then(1985),so that engine was flogged regularly. It NEVER
let me down. It was sold to a neighbor when I bought my '72GP. He was still driving it
10yrs later!

No knocks on 350's from me. I just want to wake mine up a little, on a budget. I've heard of many Pontiac 350's that ran great.

g-body,
Don't be afraid of an EGR intake on the 350, especially a 77 or 78.

I talked to the guy today and the '71 350 had water in one of the cylinders :(

At least he had the decency to call before I made the trip on Thurs.

He has a few others that he's going check for me. No big deal. If worst comes to worst I'll just go full speed ahead on the 455 like I had planned anyway.

350
 

I'd say "Yeah" if I could get mine running again. I put on a 4bbl and HEI and it aint right !
Andy