Check this firebird out.. Ram air IV
 

nicely optioned ra4. i wander what reserve is on it?

if I see another air cleaner decal Im gonna ......
nice car,too bad its now at the point of no return.

raiv bird
 

I think this was in Hemmings recently,,, cool car

Good thing you weren't at the Mecum Indy auction.

I looked at this RAIV Firebird yesterday, it belongs to a friend locally, as it sits its a nice running driver car but does need a restoration if a buyer wants to bring it back to RAIV status. It has had quarter panels put on it. The owner was contacted by someone who know a possible race history on it. Owner was asked to check for yellow paint under the black and also for 2 holes on firewall that previously had an ingnition box on it, both the yellow paint and the 2 holes are there plus the obvious frame connectors. Owner was told car had some rear wheelwell flares on it when raced and was painted red & yellow, probably explains why the quarters were replaced. The owner is still investigated this possible race history.

how much is he wanting to get out of it?

Some items are different than usual
 

In the engine picture, the battery and windshield washer bottle is reversed. The bracket holding the fan shroud is different with the fan shroud looking different too.

I wished that my car looked that good - inside and out.

I don't think that's a washer bottle, that's an overflow tank for the radiator. I bet someone moved the battery to the drivers side so they could mount an overflow bottle next to the radiator filler neck. 1969 Birds didn't have overflow bottles originally, but you have to have one to pass tech at the dragstrip.

Also note the strange alternator and p/s belt setup. Is that from a later car?

After reading your post, I opened up the link again and took a longer look at the bottle; it doesn't look like what I thought it was.

You're right about the alternator and power steering pump running off of the same belt.

The power steering pump reservoir looks like the one on my engine though. I orderd a power steering pump w/reservoir off of Amazon last week and they sent me one with a reservoir that did not look the same as the one I was replacing or what was shown in their pictures. It had the round filler neck so I used my reservoir.

I'm not an expert about what parts are missing and are not original. That car looks way better than mine and I would be happy to own it.

I spoke with the seller yesterday. This is the car that was in Hemmings recently. I get the feeling that he wants something in the low to mid 40's for the car. Nicely optioned car but putting together a correct drivetrain will be pricey.

The parts for these cars are avalaible and with so few around to choose from theres no reason this car wouldnt be worth bringing back even with an SR block not a restamp like the rest of the faking Liars ( Yes mark I am talking to you) out there. LOL

At least if its A SR you know it was a legit RAIV block to start with and you know the seller is straight up no guessing games.

Sub frame connectors are no big deal to remove, 1/4 panels replaced with NOS and a really good body man solves that issue too.

Wonder if it has the original 3.90 rear still?

Really nice piece, If I wanted a another rare car I couldnt use for Anything, Id be all over this, but Rare stuff just doesn't appeal to me as much anymore.

It does remind me of the Towne Pontiac RAIV race car though.

It will be interesting to see what it brings, Especially with all the overseas money being worth so much. This car marketed properly, could bring well into 6 figures as she sits.

74sd didnt you have a WH on hand? That would make this a nice peice as well.

If I were you Id be all over this car with owning that drivetrain its a NO BRAINER!

A quote like this is what keeps pontiac values DOWN. you wont hear a yenko guy say stuff like this in the forums. No, they pump eachother up not tear eachother down.

Why would this car now be at the point of no return??

Thats rediculous.

I have seen yenko cars that were tubbed, rollcaged with 12 pt cages, aluminum floors, Glass noses, not an original nut or bolt on the car come back and bring rediculous money on the auction block. Every bit of carnage was documented for the new buyer to see how far gone the car was to start with but it brought killer money.



Same with Hemi cars.

Pontiac guys are thier own worst enemy sometimes.


I am not just saying its cammer alone either its the whole Pontiac Hobby mindset.

The chevy ford and Mopar guys sit around and laugh about it.

Just my opinion, but I would agree that there seems to be a lot more purists among the Pontiac crowd than I've met elsewhere.

Unless you have it already and bought it cheaply. ;)

well said! LOL

Its nice to see totally pure cars out there, but it hurts the hobby/ business when anything but is crucified. It doesnt help the value of low mile original survivors like many think either because there needs to be more people and new blood in or the market gets stagnant much as our pontiac market has gotten.

Besides half the Totally pure cars I know of out there have been rebodied restampted Bullshi t to start with. I have seen hundereds of rebodies and restamps being called the real thing.

Why because they know if they told the truth they would be crucified. People are still doing it they are just lying about it.

If these cars were accepted for what they realy are and there was a market for them as such, then there would be less reason for guys to lie and everyone would know what they were truely getting. this would bring more people into the hobby/ business and that would increase prices across the board.

Vette/ chevy guys restamp like its going out of style, but they admit it so openly that its no big deal and the cars still bring the same money.
Lets face it most uber performance cars had the drivetrains beat out of them early on. so theres nothing wrong with an SR block of the same caliber as long as its put back toegther properly and sold as what it truely is not covered up.

thats my take on cars, I really dont see the difference.

Just look at the Hemi recreations bringing HUGE money with no original pedegree, That helped bring the value of real Hemis higher.
Half the time its guys who own these recreations stepping up to buy the real deal for big money later.

I don't think there's even a remote chance of a 6 figure price. I'd be really surprised if bidding went north of the low 40s, even.

We'll see.

I guess one could say that without much of the original driveline you are really buying just a VIN and Firewall tag? Perhaps too harshly worded...

Yes, I still have that WH engine hanging around. Unfortunately I am not in a good enough financial position to make a move on this car. In speaking with the seller I think the VIN of my engine is close to the VIN of his car. With that in mind I would think that most of the casting dates would work for this car. Oh well.

SD I was gonna shoot you a message but your PMs are full. Clear that Biotch!

From the pics I saw looked like there was alot more there than a firewall tag and a vin.

Of course it does have a overflow bottle so it probably isnt worth anything at all. LOL

Ahh man I love this forum sometimes.........

I think what people are saying is that without the RAIV driveline, you're buying a $7,000-$10,000 1969 Firebird 400 for $40,000. Is it worth the extra $30,000 for the paperwork of it being a RAIV car? Depends on what you want to do with it.

It will cost another $20K to get a real RAIV engine (Firebird codes), trans, and rear end (and that may be cheap, just an guesstimate). You can restamp everything and call it a day, but that will be a tough sell at auction I think. Another $3000 for the Ram Air pans, hardware, scoops assembly. Now if you want to leave it that, you have $60K into a 1969 RAIV Bird, which is reasonable if you ask me.

And there's NOTHING wrong with leaving it at that, but....

To do this thing justice, because this is a highly desirable Pontiac, it will need to be professionally restored. That means stripping the body, painting it the right color, adding a vinyl top, etc. Body and paint work can be $10,000, but we all know that a car like this needs "the Yenko treatment", it needs a top notch restorer, not a corner body shop guy. This will cost another $50K for a reputable restorer to do this thing right, to do it to a level that will bring big bucks.

So we're at $110K now all done, and I think that's realistic.

In a different economy, the car may be worth $150K, but based on recent sales of a 1969 RAIV Trans Am at $135K, and RAIV Judges, I think $100K might be pushing it. The days of a $250K 1970 RAIV Trans Am and a $500K 1970 Judge ragtop are history.

For me personally, this would be THE coolest car to restore. I think anyone with a 69 Bird, whether it's a 6-cyl, 350, 400, Ram Air, or Trans Am, understands that a 1969 RAIV Firebird 400 is THE Holy Grail of Pontiac muscle. The only other equivalent would be a 1973 Formula SD-455, or perhaps a 1968 RAII Bird.

Damn cool car. I hope whoever buys it does the full resto in the original Palladium Silver/Black Top combo. And if they do, it will surely get make the cover of HPP along with a full article.

This car SHOULD be worth $175K all done, similar to what 1969 Yenko Camaros bring. Someday that may happen. I think the collector market has really awakened to 1969 Firebirds now as an alternative to the boiler plate Camaros in their collections. A few 1969 Firebird 400 cars have sold for $40K-$75K in recent years.

well said
that was my point exactly as I looked at the realistic numbers not some pie in the sky one.
why would this be worth more than a real #s RAIV TA?

The car stands on it's own, even without the original drive line. Here is the reason - take that same $20,000 drive line & put it in any 7-10k 69 Firebird & what do you have? A $27,000 car that's going to be parted in short order.

Would a 69 TA be only worth 10k if you removed it's RA III/IV motor & hood? Would a Judge convertible only be worth 20k if you took out the RA III/IV455HO motor and the wing? These cars are all special & rare on their own and are worth far more than the sum of their parts.

That is a hard loaded 1969 RAM AIR IV, 4spd Firebird 400 and would be the solid anchor of ANYBODY's Pontiac collection with or without the original block!

well said. anyone who makes comments like the vin and tags etc... obviously is totally clueless and probably doesnt have the ability to buy even a 7 - 10k car anyway.

Fire away when ready.

Nice car, but overpriced for a car that no longer has it's orginal drivetrain, or paint.

LOL, we're all entitled to our opinions. Some comments are meant to stir up debate and comment, which it did. :)

For what it's worth, one can buy a nice Skylark Custom Convertible from 1970-1971 for 9K-12K. Not high on a collector's list, but a decent looking drivable car. Drop in a 455 in place of the 350 and you can have some fun.

I guess my question would then be, when is a '69 TA no longer a '69 TA?(Which is why I went to the absurd end of just a VIN and Body Tag) Without it's motor and hood, doesn't it become a personal question? I understand the appeal of a fully intact car, it's when it isn't that I have questions. This as I'm in the process of doing something that you note above. Well, for a lot fewer dollars and it will never be noted by me as anything other than what it is, a clone.

That car would be cool put back to stock.I would love to have it,and would love to do it.I would hate to pay 30-40k to buy it,but when done,i think it would be a very desireable car.I have never even seen a 69 RA4 Bird!

I believe both the body & the engine carry a value unto themselves that is not lost without the other. How much of the body must be present is without doubt a personal question but not in this case where the body is fully intact.

For crying out loud - it's a killer car even if it was just a Firebird 400!

That's why I say this car is not overpriced IF you want to go the whole "Yenko" route and restore it properly. The car deserves a full resto by a pro. It will be pure speculation to say it would sell for $100K (finished) at this point, but you never know.

Is a Firebird RAIV worth more than a Trans Am RAIV?

For me, yes. Others may disagree.

I think collectors occasionally like to get away from the single color scheme combo and go for something different. Not taking anything away from the 69 T/A, a Carousel red 69 Judge, 68 Hurst/Olds, 69 Hurst/Olds, etc, but sometimes a SD-455 Formula, 69 Bird RAIV, 69 GTO RAIV, or a black 69 W-30 ragtop draws more attention.

I'm definitely in agreement on that!


Thanks to all for your comments on this, it definitely helps me shape my own opinion around what I find desirable in a car. I would love to have a one of the 12 '68 Ram Air II Firebird automatics in completely stock form, but honestly it's out of my budget and who knows when and if one will ever be available.

Mike,

Whoa...

Your comment about this car concourse/fully done at 110K vs that recent -non- concourse 69 RA IV auto TA sale at 140K (with commission) is not a fair one...

I know people (incl the new owner as well as other PY members) who crawled all over the Mecum IV TA....and in the new owner's words (not mine) that auto IV TA has multiple issues and needs about 80K to be concourse.

So.... lets re-do that math...140K+80K....220K (for an automatic 69 RA IV TA that had multiple panel replacement over the years)

vs 110K for a non matching/replacement drivetrain, concours 1969 RA IV bird....

Now THAT comparison is the one that has to be made....

Gotta get the details right before we go apples to apples!

Any more info on the possible race history?

if this is the auto ra4 that i am remembering, when did it regain its original engine?

It didn't, to quote the eBay ad: "It is driver quality and DOES NOT have the original drive line. It has an early 70's rebuilt 455, 4 speed, 3.08 10 bolt rear differential."

I dont think he was talking about the subject car

"if this is the auto ra4 that i am remembering, when did it regain its original engine?"

====
Gary,

If you are talking about the 69 auto IV TA, good question. I am not sure on that front. In the Indy 2011 Mecum ad -no mention- of matching numbers was given, which to me usually equates to a non-matching numbers car (i.e. why not mention it?) That said, some PY members here stated that the car did have its matching block. I simply have no detailed knowledge either way on this car.

Okay, my error. At least I got my post count up 1 more. :)

Any of you guys have or ever done one of these cars? I almost feel like I shouldn't finish mine, the numbers that you guys are talking! True the #s look bad, but these cars aren't available every day. If you try to get that car done ASAP, it's going to cost alot more money, and to top it off the market is soft for resale.
I want to finish my car and I'm probably going to sell it when I'm done- therefor there's no emergency for me to get it done right now (bad market reasons).
Very commonly profit is factored into the cost of restoration on rare cars. I guess because most guys buy these cars with the thought that they will sell them shortly after completion.
But what the guys that spend way too much money to get any NOS part for their, 65-67 GTO or a base Judge (just examples, don't hit me). Those guys will never make a profit on those cars! Mostly because they don't really intend to sell them. Just ask Jim M. at PHS about his Plum 67 RA Bird.
Ultimately the question that you have to ask is, are you buying it to keep or make a reasonably quick profit on? There are still guys out there that would just love to own / collect a car like this with little to no for-thought of an impending resale.
Just a thought, but I sure that some will prove me wrong.

No need to worry about this one anymore-it has been sold.

I thought it didn't sell because it didn't meet reserve.

Does your insight of sale also know the trading value? This same car was for sale privately not that long ago for - I believe an asking price of 60K. What did they take for it in this market?
By the way folks, if you have spare money, NOW is a great time to buy property or rare cars! Probably less taxes on the cars though.

Congrats :)

Congrats! I think this is a great car,and will do very well when your done. I think it is worth more than a Trans Am.You NEVER see any of these!

If not the most-this car has to be near the top of loaded RAIV Firebirds-and a 4 speed to boot. I think I counted 26 options.

The words "loaded" and "RA IV"....

Anyone else have a problem with that? ;-)

Congrats Greg, should turn out killer (esp finished out in Raider colors).