70 Ram IV WT7 Judge PMD Marketing Car
 

Finally .... after years of chasing after one of these Unicorns - we got one.
And its about as top shelf as you could ask for.

Ram Air IV - 4spd - Red Interior - PMD Factory Marketing Car - DOCUMENTED.

A number of us have been pursuing these vehicles and their history for quite some time on here. They are very difficult to document within USA boundaries, as it MUST have its buildsheet unless it was built or sold within Canada. It was a No-Cost Special Appearance Option. Therefore, will not appear on a PHS Invoice.

This is the First USA Plant Built 1970 WT7 Judge we have ever been able to find/document on this PY Forum. This is not to say that other documented or documentable examples do not exist. But nobody here knows of another one built within the USA.

We have documented 1 other which was an Oshawa Canada Built Ram3 4spd with Black Bench seat. At least 51 of these are proclaimed to have been built. We were beginning to wonder.

The end of year sales/options figure shows no data on WT7 option for 1970.
For 1971 it shows 15 WT7's.

We discovered this car almost by accident.
Only by the work and knowledge gained from documenting a 1971 WT7 just within the past 2 weeks - did we gain the knowledge of how to identify such a specimen from the Pontiac Michigan plant. Up to that point - we had no known way of even how to determine a 70 Judge at all, from a 1970 Pontiac Michigan buildsheet.

Which turned out to be quite simple after all was said and done and cross referenced for accuracy. It all boils down to the PNT STR Box located under column #67.

In the case of a WT7 - it also involves the paint code - and build date.
Along with an A in the PNT STR Box.

A = Black / Red / Yellow package

E = Blue / Red / Yellow package

O = Orange / Pink / Blue package

Y = Yellow / White / Green package

On a 1970 White Judge, the Blue Stripes and White Spoiler go hand-in-hand.
We've had numerous such examples in the past, and there will be many more such examples in the future as well.

Also on the Whites, the Black Stripes and Black Spoiler go hand-in-hand, and vise-versa.
You didn't get one - without the other, on a White Judge.

I found this Judge on eBay while hunting down more buildsheet examples for the 1970 Judge Buildsheet and Stripe Decal thread we are doing. The owner was unaware of its full heritage.

Oddly enough, the 1971 WT7 Judge we just documented less than 2 weeks ago - was also discovered by its buildsheet being posted on eBay. The owner of it also was unaware of its full heritage.

Both of these examples were unknowingly restored as Blue Stripe / White Spoiler.
Sharp keen searching eyes in the know made the difference on uncovering this pair.

This 1970 Ram Air IV 4spd WT7 Judge is currently owned by a gentleman in southern Florida. It appears to be in very excellent condition to boot !

Nice work Todd!

Todd, Private investigator for hire?

I always wanted to track a second PHS on mine too, but JM says one only(Have indentical line on PHS w/5% discount noted).

JM did say it was a PMD Brass hat car... I need your CSI skills to verify.

Very cool work!

When was this car built? I see shipped 3/70 on 1st PHS from PMD and 9/70 shipped on assumed 2nd PHS??

Love the CC 6458 line on build sheet refers to TAG and ASAP too and appears on PHS as it must mean something... PI?

So you're saying if a white car was specified for the black stripes, it's a WT7 car?

What if someone specified the black stripes but not the WT7 option?

I'll admit my brain is tired, so if I have missed something in my reading comprehension, my apologies.

We would all agree that it should be backed up by another note or something to say Black Spoiler or WT7 ordered on the sheet to be fact?

I know I heard all 51 were built in Arlington too and that was NOT true thanks to the Oshawa built car.

Its light but it is a start to document these cars....Maybe the CC 6458 code means something??

Very cool. Thanks for posting (and finding) all that!

K

Need Rob Anderson (Wakepowell) to post his docs here.

1970 RA4 WT7 car . . . with 29+ options! Rob has both PHS invoices, but I can't recall if he has a build sheet.

Rob's car was the "cover car" for some of Pontiac's 1970 brochures / sales info. I'll guarantee you that you'll NEVER see another RA4 Judge with more options!

Keith - you may recall that we "chatted" about Rob's car a couple years back.

Part 1

Well I guess it's time to tell my side of the story and hopefully you guys can help fill in some of the blanks. I will be doing this in multiple posts as it will take some time to complete it. I will tell the story from the day we acquired it and then go into the details of what we learned of it's past history.

It all started on January 1 2007 new year's day. My brother called me and informed me that a 1970 RAM 4 Judge was on ebay and we should have a look at it. We already owned the Canadian pepper green GU9 4.33 diff ram 4, 4 speed so we really didn't need another one. The ebay car was a white with red gut 4 gear with factory build sheet and multiple PHS'S. The car was advertised as being partially restored needing some interior finishes and a fresh paint job. As we are all aware this was early 2007 and the market had started to turn down. Both my brother and I are passionate about ram 4 Pontiacs and I am a sucker for red interiors so we decided to pay the asking price and agreed to purchase the Judge. We bought the car from Greg Teeters (any relation to you Todd) his ebay handle is gregsgto2.I sent a buddy of ours to pick up the car from Greg. Once it arrived we all took a good look at her and realized it would need to be taken apart and restored from scratch as it would be difficult to repaint and detail it with all the mechanical components in place. As most people already know this is a super solid all original pan Judge one of the best I have ever seen. The paint on the other hand was toast. It had an early 80's repaint that was cracked in about a thousand places which left us with no alternative but to hand strip all the paint to bare metal and start off with a clean slate. The guys spent the next 6 months restoring the Judge as we began doing the research in an effort to try to answer all the questions I had about it. I was aware of the notorious black spoiler cars as we had seen photo's of numerous white cars with this option. I contacted a bunch of my favorite Poncho gurus in an attempt to see if this was possibly one of them. The response was always the same if you can't document it than it most probably isn't. I was at Barrett when the ram 4 WT7 sold in I think 2007 or 2008 and was also led to believe that that one was the only real WT7 ram 4 know. So with all the research leading nowhere we decided to do the normal thing and finished the car as a blue stripe white wing Judge. I wasn't all that concerned as we had a 1970 Ram Air IV,4 speed Polar white, Red interior, executive order Judge and it doesn't get much better than that or so we thought.

Hey Diego, I addressed that exact scenario in the 70 Buildsheet thread where this car is discussed in the last few posts.

If one STUDIES all the buildsheet examples that are relevant, they will have all the info to make the proper deduction. Two that come to mind are the 70 Delete Judge and the 70 GTO D98 Striper.

Black Stripes and Black Spoiler go hand-in-hand.
Especially after the option was instated.
And of course a Marketing Car would be done in full WT7 fashion, unless MEMO'd otherwise.

That WOULD be special Lloyd.
He has always refused to share any of the documents about his Judge.

Pretty certain the buildsheet was located during restoration.
Its not a Documented WT7 - as built.
Blue Stripe // White Spoiler is about the only thing Wake has revealed.

But a VERY NICE and HIGHLY OPTIONED PMD Pedigree IV Judge.

Greg is going to SH!T when he finds out about this !! LoL
oh well, he can still say he owned it once.

More than likely somewhere along the tree, we are probably related.
Its a very uncommon last name. We've talked about it a little.
But have never met in person.

I thought I remember that White one Greg had.

But, he has had a few White RA IV Judges in the past....

Build Sheet shows it hit the line on Feb 12 or 13 (a little obstructed).
Shipped a month later March 16.

Maybe it sat on PMD Hdqtrs showroom floor for a month first before hitting the Pool ?
Possibly replacing Wake's Judge in that spot ? (LoL , idunno)

Would love to see Wake's buildsheet now that we have this data to work with.

Looks like all you folks so far need to read this other thread (70 Buildsheets Stripes Decals) in its entirity and absorb ALL the info's data's within it. And take note of anywhere your question or comment has already been addressed by other means. TYVM :)


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=676127

I have a good feeling we will now uncover at least a couple // few more 70 WT7's within the future, armed with the new facts/data.

This is a sheet from the 70 assembly manual, supplied by Kenth.
Maybe he can do us a clearer copy. Or walk us through it some.
Can't read everything that well myself.

But i would think any true 70 WT7 should not pre-date this sheet.

Nov 10 1969

And perhaps even allow some extra lag for readiness in the equation too ?

Maybe Kenth or Ransom can answer something like that ?

Sorry that I posted incorrect information.

Last that I spoke with Rob he was under the impression that his WAS a WT7 car. Doesn't detract from his car in the least - it's one VERY special Judge! When I met Rob in person at the 2008 DAPA PSN's in San Antonio he had huge signs made up showing both invoices. Should have taken a pic or two, LOL!

Part 2: The history.
I know it rambles a bit.

Well this is the story that was given to us when we purchased the car. It has a couple of blanks in certain areas and I would like anyone that can, to fill them in.
We all know that the car was built in the middle of Feb 1970 and delivered to Pontiac on March 16 1970. The next six months is the first mystery. The recent indications are that it may have spent this time as a display car or for photo's. If anyone has a vintage picture of a WT7 with red interior please post it. I was initially told that it was owned by the vice president of marketing for Pontiac as his personal ride but always questioned why it was then sold as a new 5% car six months later. Wouldn't it have had to be sold as a used car and not a fresh PHS documented car as it would have titled to be put on the road? Or could the exec's drive a car unregistered on the road in 1970?
This next part of the story was given to me by Greg in writing so I am just rewriting it as submitted with minor edits such as personal addresses etc.
1. Delivered to Schappe Pontiac, Madison Wi. 10/18/1970 Car was sold by Al Peck (salesman) to a GM district manager. Schappe is now Don Miller Pontiac and still located at 801 E Washington street, phone number 608-258-3500. I spoke to a Johnny K (a Greek name) as he said he sold a lot of the performance cars in those years. Johnny said he remembered this car as it was difficult to order a Judge at that time due to an impending strike at the plants.
2. The car was traded back to Schappe in 1972 with approx. 20000 miles on it and placed in their showroom for sale. The next owner was Brian Lytle living on Dunning lane in Pardeeville WI, (WE HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER AND HAVE SPOKEN TO HIM).Brian owned the car for about a year and a half and was driving it when it dropped a valve. He then had the engine repaired under factory warrantee in 1973 at Portage WI as Brian had purchase an extended 50000 mile protecto plate. Brian stated that it took almost 3 months to have the car repaired as they needed that much time to get a "ARMA STEEL" crankshaft for it. Brian then drove the car for a short period of time and traded it in on a new Corvette at Thornstad Chevrolet in Madison WI 608-286-6108.Al Peck was the salesman at the time and he did the transaction with Brian. Al was originally at Shappe Pontiac but moved over to Thornstat Chevrolet later on. I spoke to Al a few years back and he said he remembered this Judge and was going to check for any old paperwork he had saved. I haven't gotten anything from him to date. The next month the car was sold early 1974 and that owner is unknown thus far. In mid 1974 Ed Mahoney from Prairie des Chien, WI. bought the car but only owned it for a couple of weeks and then sold it to John Bernardi of Antioch IL. I have spoken to John as late as March of last year 2010.I believe he told me that he raced the Judge for a while and then stored it until he sold it to Greg Teeters sometime in 2006. When we purchased the car it was still titled to John Bernardi. John comes back into the story much later again but that's a separate subject.
If anyone can fill in any of the gaps in history so far please chime in.

The GM of Canada Documentation for Canadian Built 70 WT7 that Jason located / bought / documented / restored / sold.

Very Cool Car.
And the 1st DOCUMENTED WT7 to hit this board.

I also saw another Canadian WT7 on eBay in 03 or 04.
With GM of Canada document.
But i wasn't a member here then.
And had no idea they were such needles in the haystack at that time.
Didn't save any info or pix. :o

Great story so far, please continue!

I have that doc as well. Jason D. of Transformation Restorations, correct?

Dan and Mike both have good points on their cars about the 5%.
These cars must not have been driven hardly any - if any.

Have seen other PMD Pedigree Invoices where the discount was much steeper.
Even with tire wear credit given on some.

Yep Jason D.
Too bad he just WOULD NOT sell it before he restored it.
I would have left it alone.

Here are pix of 3 cars that "might" could be documented - or documentable.

Bulletpruf ran across this first one in a private collection.
No info could be revealed.
But guy is/was a Pontiac Rarity collector from way back.

The second was posted by Uncle Judge. No idea on it.

Third car was owned by a Quint Stires, and said to have been genuine.
Anyone know Quint ?

As I recall, 'ol Pinion head (Roger H.) was VERY tight with Quint Stires. Haven't seen or heard from Roger in years, though.

Quint passed in Oct 2008.

I only have a few, and likely same ones that everyone else will have.
All depict what appears a Black interior. Allthough not conclusive in any form.
PMD has history of making photos -More and/or Less- than they actually are in reality.

The next thing about them is they all have Black center caps.
These could easily be swapped if felt they complimented the car better for pix.

Your JT wheels would have had Red Center Caps. fwiw

I might have pictures of Quint's car from the 2001 GTOAA. I'll see if I can find them.

i havent heard that name in a long time. he and i talked on the phone several times, but i never got to meet him in person. i had heard back then he passed away. sad deal.

speaking of ol pinion head roger, i dont know what has happenend to him, he just seemed to drop off the earth. the last time i even saw him was several years ago (probably 6 or 7), he called me and was in town and came by and bs'd for a couple of hours and i havent seen him since.

Quint Stires 70 Judge was used in Thomas DeMauro's book: ORIGINAL PONTIAC GTO, one of the BEST reference books made, imo.
The color pics are great and he featured some super clean cars with some rare options.

Quint Stires 70 Judge option: REAR LAMP MONITOR *how many of you knew about THAT one, or anyone ever seen one? U48 / 634

Since this is the only white Judge in the book and references indicate thanks to him and his wife for a white 70 Judge I assume its his.

BTY, they show his eng compartment and the rear light monitor option, couple of more shots of the car.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...WHITEJUDGE.jpg

You do have some great history there but I can make one correction.

John Bernardi only owned your car for a short time. No longer than a year or so and he certainly never raced it. He and a partner (Tony) bought the car (I am fairly certain) off of ebay and did the interior as well as a few other things shortly before selling it to Greg Teeters in 2006. I kind of remember John buying the car out of Northern, WI but it could have been from Ed in Prairie du Chien, Wi?
I do remember seeing a photo or two, in an ebay ad, of the car racing in what appeared to be the 70's at Great Lakes Dragway in Union Grove, WI.

Schappe Pontiac (Later Don Miller Pontiac) sold quite a few performance cars in the day. Ironically, the parts manager at Don Miller was the original owner of my White/Red interior 70 RAIV Judge.

FYI.....The book acknowledges FRED SIMMONDS research having said:

the flat black spoiler was optional with Polar White exterior paint, and only 51 Judges were so equiped, according to Fred Simmonds research.

I think it must be Quint's 70 Judge that I have the invoice for. I wondered what the "MONITOR-R/LP" was.

Sorry to hear of his passing....

Unfortunately, Quint passed a few years ago (October of 2008) At age 48, he lost the battle to thyroid cancer. He had moved from Oklahoma to NH to work for Ames Performance for a period of time.

Baron Von Zeppelin, have we met somewhere and I don’t remember? It seems strange that you take such an attack on me with what information you have. If you have a copy of my build sheet I would like to see it too… Unfortunately, my Judge was disassembled and reassembled before I owned it. I gathered all original parts and documentation that was available from the guy(s) who purchased my car from the original owner’s family. The documentation includes original sales documents and title.

I have since, with the help of Jim Mattison and Jim Wangers pieced together the history of my car prior to being sold to the public. Jim Mattison found both PHS documents for my car. The first showing its delivery to Pontiac Engineer in Detroit, October 1969 and a second showing it being delivered to Jim Causley Pontiac in Detroit, July 1970.

Jim Wangers was able to recount taking delivery of the car through the several unique options it is equipped with. Jim discussed in length his work with the car and marketing. Originally there was no intention of having contrasting colors on the spoiler of the ’70 Judge. He struggled to gain excitement with marketing a white Judge, let alone a ’70 Judge at all. This led him to experiment with the contrasting satin black on the spoiler and in the case of my Judge the hood tach too. The stripes were also changed from blue to black to better match the spoiler. He was very detailed in the changes they experimented with and how he used the Pontiac Engineering group to make these changes.

I believe you are correct in stating that there are no documented WT7 prior to November of 1969 since prior to this time they were messing with the colors. I also believe you are correct that my cars build sheet would probably not show the “A” code since it was being used to develop what eventually became the WT7 option.

You have done an excellent job of deciphering the cars build sheets. I am willing to share any documentation of my car but I will not post copies of the PHS’s, title, etc. There are still people out there that use this information fraudulently. Let me know what you are looking for and I will help however I can.

I do have the original tank pad that is tough shape and what is left of it does not appear to contain a build sheet. When I have time I will scan it to see if there are any remnants of a build sheet. I have never been lucky enough to find a build sheet on any of my Pontiacs.

Where did you see that posted? It is a May built car and does have red PMD centers on the JT's.

Well Uncle Judge this is why I am trying to piece the story together. I guess we are missing the major owner or owners from 1975-2005? Does anyone have any information on who it was. I will try to call John and see if he can fill in a bit of this gap.I do have a race ticket from Great Lakes Dragway dated 1990 maybe somebody remembers it.

I don't remember it either Wake.
So its doubtful.

Wake, you may have forgotten that when you bought the car at B-J, I was your's and the car's biggest fan on here. Even when some somewhat dark clouds were cast over it.

I've followed everything about it that i could all along.

I don't see an attack anywhere.
Just facts, and statements made regarding facts.

Absolutey i WOULD love to see the buildsheet to your Judge.
It was my understanding from either the BJ promotional website or from statements made by auctioneer that it had the buildsheet. But .... i have not seen it. And you say that you have not either ... so .... .... oh well.

And i WOULD love to see the buildsheet for every White Judge built after 10/69.
Any or either of that, would be kind of special for me.

We have asked for you to share Buildsheet / PHS documents / build date / VIN / etc... on probably no less than half a dozen ocassions. Without result or further response.
So thats a fact.

If you could have said before that one did not come with it when purchased, and one has not yet been found - at least that would have been laid to rest already. You are not indebted to us or under our command, i understand that.
The rest of us do share info though, its how we gain knowledge and better understandings. Only takes a quick look around to see that.

It wasn't for you to take harshly, although maybe you did.

You have not -at least to the best of my knowledge- ever claimed the car to be a DOCUMENTED WT7.
BUT have you not noticed the flock of members who seem to think that you have ? ? Or who think that it is ? ?

This is how things get overboard and overblown until the myth spreads so far for so long people consider it a carved in stone fact.

That needs to stop.
At least until proven otherwise.
And since it pops up in my threads - i make that correction.
No need to consider these things as personal or automotive attacks.

I'm not sure how others have blown it into a Documented WT7 ?
The car holds its own on many other levels, why muddy the water ?
It was good of you to make the statements about the car in your previous post.
Perhaps others have a clearer picture now.

I hope that someday soon you find enough of a sheet in the seatbacks/cushions or piece of tank pad you have, and that my work benefits your car just for the sake of the knowing.

But either way that finding points to the car. It would be beneficial to the members of this forum to know which way it turns out. I hope you will at least share that much. Either way whether its an E in the box or an A.

Personally i would like to see the PHS invoices since my former copies are on a crashed computer.
I'd like to know the build date.
I'd like to know the VIN number or at least all but the last 2 numbers - at minimum.

All of this would be beneficial to my present and future work.
I'm nowhere near finished with WT7's.

We've got two 70's
and three 71's - with paperwork on a fourth (unknown if still alive).
Its been fun so far.

Hey Rob -

I'm sorry that I stirred things up, as that was most certainly NOT my intention.

You have my most sincere apologies, my friend. I never will forget the thrill of seeing your superb Judge in person at Retama Race Park three years ago!

You Texan's always stirring up the.....LOL

:p:D:eek:

BVZ and Lloyd,

Sorry for coming across too strong. The information and knowledge shared on this forum is great and very beneficial. PM me your e-mail address and I will get you copies of my PHS’s to help your research. I just request that they don’t get posted.

Also, I will make some time in the next week to recount the discussions with Jim Wangers on how his marketing team worked with Pontiac’s Engineering Department to “Play” with the color schemes on the ’70 Judge as well as how the photo shoot for the ’70 Performance Broacher was done.

Keep up the good work,
Wake

Hey Rob - no harm done!

Baron will keep your PHS docs private.

Wake, let me know how to get JW and JM in on my car too!

Last month at a local show, while I was away from my 71 Judge JW came over in a golf cart and check her out for quite awhile. I missed him but Norwood (Craig) said "he looked it over good"...

Off topic . . .

Never had JW nor JM look my junk over, but I was MOST fortunate to have JS (Sawruk, RIP) give my '72 Sundance GTO several "lookings over" at the 2007 POCI nats in Tulsa. He even consulted with the judges when they were gonna penalize me for having "those Corvette tires" (G60 Polyglas) on my car. John set 'em straight right away by referring to my window sticker which I had displayed in the trunk area.

We ended up chatting for quite some time, and he even took me over to the swap meet area to purchase a rear speaker cover he'd found to fit it.

OK, BTT . . .

Todd -

I'm on the road now, but will take another look at my pics from that day when I get home. IIRC, I snapped a pic of the VIN, but it didn't come out real clear. Will let you know. I don't recall if he claimed that it was a factory WT7.

It was that day that I realized exactly what "sensory overload" means. This guy had about 80 cars - almost all GTO's and high horsepower Mopars. He had 4 '67 Hemi GTX's, for example. Had only 2 or 3 chivverlays, which was nice. One Buick (GS hardtop). Maybe one ferd? Anyway, it's a private collection in a small town owned by an unassuming country boy. He rarely lets people check his collection out and understand that I may have been one of the only ones allowed to take pictures.

Scott

Black Spoiler and 8PT
 

A pic I saved from an old thread someone here posted. No black stripes but does have black wing with an 8 point buck :-)

Dan

How many different factory ads or pics are known to exist of WT7 cars?

LoL
i remember that one. Neat story on it when it was posted.

It is a RamIV 4spd Blue Stripe // White Spoiler. Original owner painted spoiler black.
It got restored - and they put it Black Stripe // White Spoiler.

Same car.

I've got four WT7 promos of 1970.
Almost all of them are different configuration.

Not saying these are all of them ever done though.
Think 2 or 3 more versions out there.

Also the gold (possibly Oribit Orange) shown on the cover of the 70 brochure.

I think I've seen this in colour too...but I might be wrong.

BVZ, here is what the girl from your 3rd pic looks like standing up!;)

Unrelated to the WT7 cars, but that's the same location/girl as the OO ad :) (probably the same day as the weeds in the background even match!)


Interesting that black spoilers were used on other colours in promo's, but (I believe) it is only documented to have ever been offered on polar white cars?