Insulation and Sound Deadener
 

Working with a buddy on a 72 GTO installing Vintage Air. It has been a long tome since I worked on these cars and I need some help. The install of the A/C is easy but I have some questions about insulation.

Everyone says use Dynamat and now there appears to be yet another product "Dynaliner" that Dynamat says goes OVER their Dynamat Product.

Does anyone have experience with these products? The main issue is heat insulation: this entire inquiry is driven by the A/C installation. The "Dyna" products are EXPENSIVE when purchased in the precut version (only Dynamat comes precut to fit the floor). It appears to be much more reasonable when purchased in bulk. Dynaliner apparently comes only in rolls.

Any info on the heat insulation results, comments on using Dynamat and Dynaliner together and sources for these materials in rolls / bulk would be greatly appreciated.

There's also FatMat, in two thicknesses, at least 100sq. ft. quantity IIRC. I think it's cheaper than Dynamat.

From info on this and other sites, I recently bought a similar product called "peel & seal" at Lowes, used for roofing applications. I used it on the underside of my dash. The downside is they only have it in 6 in. wide rolls.

george

6 foot wide rolles? Group Purchase?

several vendors have the foil backed bubble wrap. Its effective for a while but put any pressure on it and you get that "pop" noise and all true effectivness goes "pop" too. plus with its added thickness it messes up the fit of carpeting, if not upon installation maybe later after its gone "pop".

67 I did my entire car 66 GTO with spray bed liner under the body, Dyna mat, and Dyna liner on top. It's works pretty good on the inside of the roof and on the floor, kind of expensive but I feel worth the money. I live in AZ so I needed all the insulation I could get. I bought all my products off Ebay. I could post pictures if you want. Mark

Pontirag: The "peel & seal" is in 6" wide rolls, I don't know if you missed that.

I checked the FatMat site and their stuff, in 100 sq. ft. quantities is two 18" wide rolls. Probably better for floors; I'm probably going to use that stuff for my floors when I get to it.

george

Pictures would be great.

A question about thickness of this dynamat / dynaliner combo. Does it effect carpet fit? If ya stick enough of anything under the carpet the carpet can get a little "short" around the door jambs. What brand of carpet did you use over the Dyna Mat Dyna Liner combo?

Another ???? or two if I might.

#1 did you do the doors and if so what did you use..D-mat and D-liner or just one of the two? Did you put the Dyna under the door panel or up against the inside of the door sheet metal? What carpet did you use...Brand?

#2 Was this an A/C installation driven insulation install? if so what aftermarket A/C did you go with? We are thinking Vintage Air Gen IV and if that is what you used in Az we would love to get some info about the cooling perf. It is very hard to get numbers on how well this stuff works...R-rating #s similar to house insulation. Being an engineer numbers are IMPORTANT to me and there seems to be nothing whatsoever in terms of numbers.

Same goes for VA systems..ya cannot pry anything out of them about the performance #s of the system. All ya get is "Gen IV is MUCH better than Gen III"! Well Duh???? If ya don't know what Gen III did and ya cannot find out what Gen IV does how do you know what the relative values are??? Same for this Fatrmat DynaMat comparison.

PS What is JetDoc??? Spent some of my wasted youth as a test (non destructive and destructive) test engineer at PWA. Worked on TF30 (F-14A Tomcat) and JT9D 747 engine. Some of the test results, intended non destructive tests that resulted in destruction, were amazing..especially on the TF30 in the F-14!! .

George

FatMat came up in another discussion. I am struggling to compare the two on therma insulation perf. Going to engineering school makes things like this job tougher...I gotta see the numbers whenever I possibly can!!!!

This looks like a PIA job under the headliner and we want the best bang for the buck. This is one of those things like paint work..it is all about the prep work. we know we can't expect the best A/C perf from an non insulated car and the roof and doors have no insulation right now.

Any info about the relative perf of FatMan versus Dynamat combined with Dynaliner?

Yup "Pop goes the R-value". This job is too much like work to do a half baked (pun intended) job. No one wants a do over and the wrong material assures a "baked in the oven result" as far as interior temps here in Hotlanta in the summer!

I struggle with thickness of the material. Thickness is goodness as far as thermal insulation on the other hand carpet fit is impt. too. Some of the carpet guys supply carpet with some edge trimming needed and I think that is the solution to a slightly thicker insulation material. A little careful trimming is better than having a shortage of carpet material around the edges.

A friend just did his '67 GTO with Frost King from Lowes or Home Depot. It's about $21 per roll and you need about 1.25 rolls to do the car, if I remember correctly. Fit under the carpet and jute no issues. It DOES make the jute slide a bit....not a problem when the carpet is all in. Velcro would make the install of the carpet a little less slippy. I've driven the car, and it is FAR quieter and cooler inside than my factory tar-paper insulated '65 GTO. His total cost was under $45 for the whole car, but he didn't do the doors. Just the roof and the floor. If you start looking, the amount of available stuff is overwhelming. Some is ill-suited for automotive use, some not. All are much more reasonably priced than Dynamatt.

I did not see any thermal performance #'s for the Dynamat or Fatmat. They did have #'s for sound attenuation probably because that's the primary market for the product.

Perhaps a direct call may produce some info.

George

I am learning that EVERYTHING / ANYTHING is priced better than Dynamatt!!!! I need to take a look at this Frost King stuff. Does it have adhesive on one side? Is your friends 67 A/C equipped?

Yup NO #s.... why am I not surprised???? This stuff could have the R-Value of a napkin for all we know...along I might add with the price tag of Solid Gold!! It is a curse ..wanting to dig in and actually get some performance numbers on this stuff. I guess the years in E-school and working in engineering have taught me not to just rely on hear-say. Show me the numbers!!! I am having the same issue with A/C selection for this car. All ya get is non quantifiable generalities..."this is better than that" but for me at least answers like that one are worth very little.

I wonder how folks can just throw this stuff in and "hope" it is gonna do the job? This all started with a friend of mine doing a 34 Ford. He has HUGE $$$$$$$ in the car and he admits skimping on the insulation. He is REALLY kicking himself for not getting it right and I want very much to avoid the same fate with this GTO I am working on.

Sound attenuation is certainly important, I am more and more spoiled by my wifes Lexus 400 Series. On the same note however the A/C in her car is awesome. Seems to me there is no reason ya cannot get the sound attenuation and insulation if ya just search long enough.

67rao, I agree with the quest for data...but if the data was acquired wrongly, even having the numbers can be useless.

Back to an earlier post, I would use the bubble-backed stuff on roof panels and outside door panels.

Anyone here have feedback (either QUALitative or QUANtitative) on any closed-cell foam thermal (and I guess vibration?) barrier materials? ...Won't go 'pop'.

Just did a search and found this stuff: http://radiantbarrier.reachlocal.com...id=10113787621

If we are talking about "bubble Pack" like material..material used in shipping I think the "pop" observation makes sense. I am not at a point where I have seen too many of these materials but I am sure that if there is a material using the clear bubble "air" type packing material that material is going to be susceptible to the popping.

If on the other hand we are talking about a material that uses what I think is called a closed cell foam then I agree the "pop" factor should be a non issue. When I talk about closed cell I believe the terminology relates to a material that is more "sponge like" in nature as opposed to the packaging material I suspect we are all more familiar with.

That "sponge like" term is not the best but it is all I can come up with right now. To be sure we are talking about the same stuff we really need to discuss a place where this stuff is used that is common knowledge to everyone. I think the "bubble" terminology is causing me some confusion here. While I think I understand what "closed cell" means I can't for the life of me come up with a real world place where the stuff is used.

I do agree that the material used on the roof and the doors can be "less wear resistant" all it has to do is sit there..it is not going to get stepped on so its resistance to weight and foot traffic can be much less than ,material used on the floor.

Time to look at your research work. More later.

67ramairowner, the Frost King is adhesive on one side and foil on the other side. It's about 1/4" thick, if I remember correctly. He put it on with a roller, and it stuck well and followed the contours of the floor. The main purpose out here in hot central CA was to keep HEAT out of the car. It seems to do that pretty well (better than the stock tarpaper in my cars does!). As a bonus, it's fairly quiet inside the car as well, even with stiff gears, four speed, and loud exhaust. No Lexus, but overall, it increased the "quality" feel of the car. When I do carpets in mine next time, SOMETHING other than paper is going in , that's for sure.

Thanks GeeteeOhguy

Can you tell me if your friend did anything with his doors and roof (assuming it is a hardtop)? I am wondering if we should be thinking of insulation up against the inside of the door skin OR insulation between the door panel and the door frame that the panel attaches to. This car has a 40 Y/o headline that has to go so we are planning to do something to the underside of the top before the new headliner goes in. Any comments on what your friend did are apreciated!!!

We have the same issue here in Hotlanta as you do in Calif. Likely more humidity here and somewhat less heat. This summer 90+ days over 90+ degrees. Sometimes it felt like HOUSTON!!!!

I am going FULL BORE on the insulation of this car because we want it as good as it can be and because I will be doing a car of my own later. The research I am doing for this car currently under construction is research I would have to do anyway for my car.

Another thing is window tint. This car has great glass so we are thinking of putting on the "add on" window tint. A friend had it done to his pickup about 5 years ago and the stuff has held up VERY well. The heat reduction due to limiting the direct sun inside the car is signif. The objective with this A/C and insulation is to keep the heat out and thereby minimize the heat load the A/C has to deal with removing.

In the corvette industry everybody knows about NCRS. They put out a first class magazine called the Corvette Restorer.

back in the winter of 09 they published Volume35 number 3.

on pages 12 and 13 was an interesting article, "keeping It Cool" by Gary Chesnut.

makes for an interesting read,

As an owner of a 66 Vette that article is 2x interesting for me. Thankyou!

Now speaking a little from both sides of my mouth here. The NCRS guys can get their shoelaces tied together really easy over non original equipment. I bet some of the hard core typeswould rather be original and HOT than cool and non original! LOL!!!!!

Could you please redo the second thumb of the article. I cannot seem to get it into a form that I can read. I think that the scan quality in the 2nd thumb you posted is not as good as the first page for some reason

67ramairowner, my friend Bill did use it on the roof under his headliner, and it really stuck well. He did not use it in the doors. At the time, I asked him, and he just said he didn't feel the need. His car had O rust and is a dry CA car he's had since 1977. The factory stuff sprayed on the inside of his doors was still fine. If it were me, I'd probably roll some Frost King or whatever in the doors and quarter panels when the glass was out. The stuff is not very heavy, and seems to really "tighten up" the car. Beware of some stuff, though. I went to an autobody class a couple of years ago, and the instructor told us of an old car (I think it was a Packard) that was destroyed by the guy shooting that yellow expanding foam into the rockers and a-pillars, etc. The stuff turned out to be acidic and a water-absorber, and his car rusted out everywhere within a couple of years and was not repairable.....but it sure was quiet for a short time!!

Expandible foam!!!!! What next? Blown in attic insulation???? A former owner of my house is / was an expandible foam junkie. It was like he told his kid "Go put this everywhere you can feel a draft"!!!! For better or worse I replaced a bunch of doors and windows with quality Andersen products and ridded myself of the Foam! It is a HUGE PIA to remove even if you can access it. In my case it went out with the old windows!!!

I am thinking that the doors and the roof as well as the area behind the quarter windows is gonna get done on this car and my car. Also, some A-Body cars had a cardboard / fiberboard divider between the trunk and the rear seat. I have to think that the back seat (without that board) has to be a huge source of warm air from a hot trunk. Said another way any cool air from the A/C that "leaks" thru the rear seat is wasted trying to cool the trunk. I am for certain getting one of those boards for my car. I plan to over it with insulation and install it behind the rear seat. I have learned a lot about this insulation game from the improvements achieved in houses..it has to be the same for the cars...keep the heat out and keep the cool in for summer comfort. Learning about the various products out there is very interesting. Thanks for your help and followup!!!!

hope this is clearer

as for the expandibel foam. its a really really bad idea. many who tried it in aluminium skinned aircraft found that , at first it adhered to the innder skin of the aircraft but over time vibrations would cause a separation between the foam and the skin. condensation would collect between foam and the skin and very quickly rot the skin from the inside out. it would no doubt do the same to a cars sheet metal.

I used the frost king on my 64 conv lemans. It calmed down the temp and road noise a lot. I also did the doors. Had problems getting the frost king to stick vertically. I had some extra spray glue and used it to get it to stick a lot better. I thought about the foil back bubble insulation but decided on the frost king instead. The install was real simple. It contours to the car real good all you need is a good roller.

When you say you did the doors. Was it applied to the door skin or to the steel behind the door panel?

I applied it to the material and let it tack up and then applied it to the door.

Dad and I used a product called RoadKill, it is marketed as sound dampner. It was wayyy less expensive than the Dynamatt. The sheets worked well in the doors, installed on a sunny day outside temp about 75 degrees, used a paint stir stick to press it to door between the reinforcement and the door skin, 2 or 3 inch wide foil tape for the seams and the thing looks like a space capsule, we did the entire floor from firewall to half way up the trunk partition and in the rear quarters and the cabin half of the rear wheel wells. The stuff sticks real good.

Whre does one get "Roadkill". I can just see myself going to some vendor and saying I want to buy some Road Kill!!!!! LOL!!

What was your experience with this stuff as far as thermal insulation?

MUCH better. Thank You again!!!

Sorry, We got ours at a local stereo shop. (a low key stereo shop, a lot less expensive than some around) As far as thermal insulation, I gotta believe it helps. It sure makes the car seem more solid. It is thick foil on one side and a thick tar like stuff that goes against the metel, cut peel and stick, press in place with a roller or use the back of a screwdriver to form and press out air pockets, seal seams with foil tape. Ta Da!

a friend of mine installed that stuff. best advice he gave me was to roll it ip. install it in the door, unroll it and very carefully a little at a time unpeal it and stick it to the inside of the door.

very very good advice

I used frost king too.I think its made for wrapping steel ducts. It's easy to install on the floor but for the ceiling and doors I used 3M spray adhesive to make sure they stayed.
Hope this helps ,
George

3M is good for a while but hardens, becomes brittle and disintegrates after a couple of years, quicker in hoter climates

What adhesive do you recommend for use in the roof area and the doors? I am sure that some of these products come with adhesive but I am now wondering what I should use not only for the insulation but for the adhesive!!!! I know that the "silver tape" that goes on heating ducts is almost totally unremovable. Seems to me that adhesive (whatever it is) would be the hot ticket to keep insulation stuck to places like the insides of door skins and the underside of roofs.

Me too.

He already did it! Look at the follow on positing he made.

The product I was refering to above comes in a spray can and comes out looking like a cream color and hardens to a yellow color. works ok for a while on clean surfaces but crystalizes to very hard and turns to dust.It was made by 3M but I cannot recomend that. I have seen beautifle headliners with insulation flopping around behind them that really ruin the looks of the interiour.

. In the aircraft industry we used this stuff By 3M that was like a black RTV sealant. we used it to seal gaskets around the doors in aircraft. (pressurized cabins)It worked very very well You must clean off any old sound deadener otherwise it will stick to that but the old sound deadener will peal away from the roof metal. Its ok to have a rough surface on the roof metal, even a little rust does not hurt but maybe clean off anything loose with a scotchbright pad...just to remove the loose stuff. then apply this stuff and it works very well for long time.

I wish I knew what it was called but it worked very very well. I would contact 3M or look in the aircraft spruce and specialty company's catologe. it was about 8 bucks a tube

Pontirag,
I did my interior install 7 years and 40K ago and the frost king still has not fallen.
George

George

Confused by your response. Did you use 3M product as adhesive with the Frost King or did you use Frost King with whatever adhesive it comes with? If you used a 3M adhesive WITH Frost King what 3m product #? What was the purpose of the product? 3M has more products than you can shake a stick at and they change things in their lineup all the time.

Since my current questions are surrounding the roof and the glue used to secure the material to the roof can you clarify the following?

We are talking about your install being on the roof?

Did you use the standard adhesive on the Frost King?

How did you secure the insulation if you used another adhesive other than what might have come on the insulation what was Adhesive Product maker, intended OEM use and product #?

If you used "outta the box Frost King" all these questions are unimportant but with all the varying ideas and valued opinions I need to clarify the fine points of each response.


Thanks!!!

I have never heard of Frost King but the Roadkill material that we used had a paper backing that you remove from the tar-like surface that sticks real well to the metel of the car, the use of a roller and the handle end of a screwdriver helped to stick it and any air pockets are easily removed by a small slice with a razor knife, smooth and patch with foil tape.

Frost King
 

Hey "geeteeohguy" what is the usage of Frost King, heating and a/c or roofing? I can't find it in our local (Lansing, Michigan) Home Depot or Lowes.

Doug....

I have used the product RAAMAT from http://www.raamaudio.com/. It is a lot less expensive than the "name brand" stuff and used by all of the top stereo installer.

67,
Frost King is a HVAC product sold at Lowes where I live. It is a self adhesive wrap with an aluminum style outside and mastic black 1/4" thick part that looks like dynaliner sold at audio stores. It is much lighter than dynaliner and sticks to itself and clean steel pretty well. BUT the adhesive backed frost king would NOT stick well to my roof so I used 3M headliner spray adhesive on both the frost king and the roof then installed. The 3M product I used was a heavy duty headliner product that was yelow and took 15 minutes to set up properly before attaching.You had to do this outside the fumes were awful. My old boss used this stuff to install vinyl tops if I remember correctly.
Hope this answers your questions,
George

Since you mentioned it....about your boss and the headliners. This project is gonna require a headline redo for me. Like you apparently now do I once worked in an auto upholstery shop way W-A-Y back when. I already need to get some of that glue for the headliner part of this project.

It sure sounds like you are using the same stuff I remember. If I recall correctly we brushed it on...one of those small brushes that are part of the lid of the can. Same as you say you did we applied it to both mating surfaces. The stuff went on the headliner and to the area that the headliner was gonna be stuck to. wait a few minutes and get to work fitting the headliner. The stuff was kinda gell like...sorta like the "slime" on Ghost Busters. It had a fair "working time" where you could move things around to get wrinkles out..tighten up corners ect. ect. ect. 3M makes some spray on stuff these days. The product I worked with back in the shop way back in the dark ages was much better for headliner work than anything I have ever seen come out of today's spray cans.

Can you possibly get me a Manufacturer name and a product number?

67
Will do but I am gone till Sunday.
George

George

Thankyou!!!

If this stuff is from 3M they have a web site that you can use and a GREAT Call Center. The issue is that they make SOOOOOOOOO many products it is hard to actually get thru the endless list even when you are talking to someone.

Have a great holiday !!!

"67"

I used Eastwood's "dynamat clone" on my 69. It's cut to fit but it's an easy job with a sharp utility knife. Price is right, and so far I like it a lot.

Bear

Search for B-quiet sound deader. Company is located in Alberta, Canada. Products are equall to Dynamat or better, and half the price. Comes in 50 foot rolls, 12" wide. I did my 70 GTO entire interior floor area and doors with two rolls. Also supplemented the floors with V-comp noise barrier. great products.

70GTORAG

This is primarily a conversation about thermal insulation as opposed to sound insulation. I think this product has some merit based on what you say ..Dynamatt is is EXPENSIVE and the Pre Cut sets for the floors are REALLY crazy price wise so this might be an answer for me.

Having said that...what is your experience with this product from a thermal insulation point of view? I am working on an A/C installation and the heat load the A/C has to deal with is a function of the thermal barrier to hold heat out and cool air in.

Thx "67"

BEar

I assume you meant to say "it is NOT cut to fit"? I can live with that. Any qualitiative comments about insulation and sound deadening properties? This is mostly about heat insulation capability but at the same time I don't want to increase noise !!!

Thanks

"67"

My experience with the product was primarily for acoustic properties. The thermal properties of the products were also important, but did not influence the decision. The goal was to reduce noise caused by vibration, engine noise, road noise, etc. As well I installed an awesome stereo system and wanted to keep the sound within the vehicle, and cut down vibration. The result is a much quieter ride, and much less heat transmission from the engine/tranny area. The website www.b-quiet.com will only give you the acoustic properties, and will also price compare their product to the waaayyy expensive Dynamat, which is mainly why I chimed in on the thread. As I said, for my install I did the entire interior of the car, from the bottom edge of the front windshield to the back of the seats, and from door glass to door glass. The product is easy to install, as it forms and molds itself to the contours of the metal, with some persuasion of course, and in the difficult areas the aid of a blow dryer or heat gun help it flow better.
I wish I could help you answer the real question you are after about thermal resistance but I do not know. You could try the contact us button on the web page and ask if a tech can help you. Good Luck.