'60 Safari w/3spd Stick
 

Well, I got what I consider to be the "deal of the century" on a 1960 Pontiac Safari Wagon... 84,680 Miles on it.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1320428603

Now get this: The guy told me a friend of his had a GTO and he was gonna sell him the engine and trans for $400 and then scrap the rest for $400 so If I wanted it I could have it for $800...

Of course, the GTO guy wouldn't be able to use this engine and trans in his car but I didn't argue with him.. I just agreed to the price and thanked him for not crushing the car.

I put some tires on it yesterday and dragged it home will my tow bar, all four tires rolling. Worked great!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1320428551


The floor pans are shot, doors flapping from rot and the back corner/bumper's bad but she's a 3 seat wagon with roof rack and safe-t-trac rear, radio delete, manual steering and brakes...

A2 engine code... which says it's just 215 HP 425E with 8.6 compression.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...2&d=1320428584


The engine spins 180 degrees but then hangs up.. I'm thinking stuck valves..

I have an A1 engine from a '60 Ventura that was rebuilt about 2000 miles ago.

Will this engine work well in my wagon even though it was coupled to a Hydramatic?
Not too much torque for this clutch and trans is it?

This old gal may never be a show car but I want it to been as cool as it can be.

Suggestions and opinions are welcome and encouraged but, NO it's not for sale!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...0&d=1320428539

Happy for you, nice color too!.. and a posi with a stick! I should say you gort a great deal and glad you plan to save it. The Ventura engine will work just fine, bolt 'er in.
I would suggest a dual master cyl and look into a disc conversion, seat belts, should harnesses.

Would you post a pic of the dash? Have not seen a 60 delete plate before.

Photo of dash w/radio delete:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&d=1320429925

Not real pretty.. should be slick I think.

I'll definitely do a dual master.. I also have a power steering pump/box set-up from the Ventura I may install if it's an easy bolt in.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...0&d=1320431444

Great find!

I saw the "old lady" who owned this car yesterday and she said she used to have to pull her brother out of the snow and sand with the car... She never got stuck anywhere she said.. The tires that were on it that are flat now, were both were snow tires and both were worn slick.. Posi style!

My Catalina 4dr sedan has one, too.

Success!
 

I pulled all the spark plugs last night and filled the cylinders with trans fluid. Today I took off the valve covers and tapped all valves with a hammer a few times. I rotated the crank a bit and then did it again. I then tapped the pushrod side of the rockers, rotated some and then repeated it a few time to free up the lifters. Now she's spinning freely.. So well in fact that I put a battery in, put it in reverse and turned the key to engage the starter. She drove backwards under her "own power" for the first time since 1977 (even though it was just battery and starter propelled).. I then put it in 1st gear and moved her back.. Heavy Duty Starter seems to be working just fine!

Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon I'll be driving my "new" wagon around the property..
I wonder if the brakes work? Haven't checked them yet..

You got a deal. Hope you do a nice resto on this. Very seldom ever see these anymore.

kool
 

Looks like a great project car. and great Price. Wife and I are talking about trying to find a wagon for our next project. That way she could use it to haul her gear to gigs and look kool. She has a dodge Magnum wagon right now. Awsome car shame Dodge stopped making them.

Thanks Guys.. I'm going to use this thread to update progress. Hopefully there will be a steady stream of reports...

Well, I replaced the plugs, wires, distributor cap, coil, points and rotor...

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...7&d=1320536858

Poured gas down the carb and hoped it would kick over but no dice.. I must have some valves stuck open or some dead lifters... She's looking alot better though..

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1320536733

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...4&d=1320536766

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...5&d=1320536807

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...6&d=1320536828

I had a radiator and some other parts from a Ventura parts car that I saved for this project...

I can't believe that some people would just let a car like this sit and rot in a field.

Here's the walk-around movie..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hASxfMc4zXU

Nice car. It looks like a fun project!

Jim

Another odd thing about this wagon is that it has never had a side view mirror of any kind on it. No holes.. I guess that was not mandatory DOT requirement and was a factory option in 1960? Anybody ever seen another car without a side view mirror?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1320588564

LOOKS LIKE IT WILL BE A FUN PROJECT! IS THERE A REAR SWAY BAR. ALL US SAFARI GUYS WANT TO KNOW. MOST ALL OUTSIDE MIRRORS WERE DEALER INSTALLED OPTIONS, AS WELL AS THE ROOF RACK. REAR POWER WINDOW IS STANDARD FOR THE NINE PASSENGER ( NINE PASSENGER OPTION ONLY IN BONNIE AND CATALINA ) IF YOU FIND THE REAR BUMBER STEPS, I NEED SOME NEW ONES TOO, IM STILL HUNTING. IF YOU HAVE DONE THE BRAKE MASTER CHANGE OVER BEFORE LET ME KNOW WHAT WORKED. I AM STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WILL WORK WITH THE 60 LINKGE. A INSPIRING PROJECT. I WILL BE FOLLOING YOU. I LL HELP ALL I CAN.

They are uncommon but they're out there - my '61 Bonneville doesn't have outside rear view mirrors.

Yes, rear sway bar and posi rear...

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...2&d=1320592215

I have not done the MC changeover on either of my '60 Pontiacs but want to do both of them for sure.. Can anybody point us to a thread or website that covers that?

Thanks for the help offer..
Anybody have a or know of a not-too-expensive 4dr or wagon parts car with decent doors, floors and rear sheet metal within 100 miles of Charlotte NC?

..and hey, post a photo or two of your wagon..

Still no luck getting this car to fire up.. Looks like I'll have to take the intake manifold and valley pan off and see what's going on in there.. I do have compression in al 8 cylinders..

All 59-60 wagons had a factory sway bar. Plenty of early 60's cars had no side mirrors.

Maybe it got parked because the timing chain jumped, if 60's had a plastic gear.

If you have spark, fuel and compression, it SHOULD fire up.

My wagon started up after 30 years Mojo, my biggest problem was resetting the timing and dwell after I pulled the distributor to pre oil the engine. Glad to see another oldie and a wagon to boot back on the road soon.

I have spark and compression. I pulled out the new plugs and 6 of 8 are totally clean and don't even smell like gasoline. I'm thinking the intake valves are not opening due to collapsed lifters or bent pushrods.
I'll be pulling the valve covers tomorrow and loostening up the rockers to see what's happening. The lifters spring back when tapped with a hammer so I believe they would open if the cam/llifter/pushrod/rocker/valve sequence is working properly.
If I can't tell anything from there, I'll dig into the engine a bit deeper like taking off the intake manifold and valley pan.

As far as the timimg gear goes, I saw that my '60 Catalina 4 dr sedan with A1 engine had a metal gear when I changed the timing cover gasket and oil seal so I guess this A2 engine does too?

If I can't get this 8.6 economy engine poppin' proper, it's gonna get the heave-ho to make way for the 10.25 A1 with 3x2's..
But I'd like to get this car going under it's own original power plant.

If you can get the stock motor to run, you could run regular fuel.

That would be great..
It should still have plenty of power shouldn't it? I may still want to put the 3x2 setup on there.. Wouldn't hurt anything would it? I know it wouldn't be optimum but I probably wouldn't be into the secondaries much.

Great find. I will be keeping up with the wagon also.

Great save. She's a great looking wagon!

Thanks! I see you have a few of your own.
Yep, I'm now a proud member of the "Longroofers Society."
We need t-shirts and dash plaques of our own now...
Remember where you heard it first!

Thanks, that's cool.. It's the same color as the Catalina I have.. Sierra Copper I think it's called.

Cool find Mojo...Where do you find jewels like these?...ha ha :D Lookin good!!!

Russell

..With a little help from my friends.. Thanks for the redirect Russ.. I hope you don't regret it..
Now I need a 4 dr sedan parts car for cheeeep!

Anybody know if a four speed will swap right in to this car with no mods? If so, which one would be the best to use?
Man, this linkage and shifter on the column SUX and gets bound up more times than not.

If I'm going to put a shifter on the floor it might as well be a four speed..

No problem Mojo...Saw your ad lookin for one on Craigslist & glad to help a fellow Pontiac lover. Plus I hated to see it go to the crusher. I cant buy everything...ha ha

Last Kannapolis Cruise in is Saturday...Get there around 3pm.

Later
Russell :usa2:

I'm just going through the same thing with my '58 so I'll tell you that the general consensus is that most 4 spds will bolt up without a problem. Muncies, Saginaws, etc. Probably have to put a new clutch disc and will need to do something about the overall length. (Driveshaft and yoke.) But it should all be pretty straightforward. I'm hoping so anyway, as I haven't yet started. Just picked up an M20 yesterday so maybe in the next few weeks I'll have some more info..

Thanks, I look forward to the info about the swap...

I haven't been able to get the engine popping yet (even though there's compression and spark) so I suspected the valves aren't opening. I pulled the intake and valley pan off yesterday... I had hoped the engine only had 84,000 miles but it looks more like 284,000 miles... Without an oil change...

First, I unbolted a rocker arm because I was going to shoot some trans fluid down into the lifter via the pushrod but the hole in the rod was plugged. I tried pulling the pushrod out and it was stuck in place... I had to wiggle it loose, then twist and yank it out.. I mean, I could feel the crud scraping off it and falling back into the valley as I pulled it out.. I then had to take a metal scraper and carve the crap off the side of it and stick a wire down through it to get it to where I could see daylight through it.. I can't believe the amount of dried sludge build-up on the lifters and pushrods! This old gal must have died of a heart attack!... I can't even image what's in the oil pan.. It appears that the breather caps weren't breathing and the road draft tube is bound up tighter than Elvis on barbituates..

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&d=1321195176

Come to think of it now, the old woman that had this car looked the same way..

I took some photos so I could share the horror..

Any risk of lead poisoning if I decide to try and clean this toilet?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...7&d=1321195162

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&d=1321195201

UGLY SLUDGE but I don't think that explains why it wouldn't start. If you are getting gas, spark, rockers are all going up & down when cranking -- and timing is set up correctly (valves and ignition) then it should have started.

Regarding transmission interchange, I agree with Teej. See http://www.pontiacsafari.com/L1Garag...lTransmissions. I just updated that page a week ago with transmission info. That is a 1955-58 Pontiac web site but since 1958-60 use the same bell housing then interchange info will apply to your '60.

Do you know if you now have the light duty or heavy duty 3-speed? If not, count the bolts on trans side cover, light duty has 4 bolts, heavy duty has 8 bolts.

I bought my 1st 65 GTO in 87 when I was 16. Factory tripower automatic car...Gave $600 and drove it home. Someone had swapped the intake with a 2 barrel intake so i was sticking a 4 barrel on it and I pulled the valley pan too & sludge was LEVEL with the valley pan...16 & no money so a putty knife & a shop vac & I was going again...Later on when the engine finally died I got to see in the pan & it was clean...Oil slinging from the crank around in it kept it clean.

I would think the wagon maybe suffered from grandmas short trips & few oil changes?...I would also bet since its a wagon its got the heavy duty 3 speed...Just a guess.

I will have to get down and check it out soon!!!

Russell:usa2:

Yeah Man! I'll buy the beer..

I guess this one aint so bad compared to the '65 GTO you had..
I suppose I'm going to lay some rags down over the cam openings, pull the rockers and push rods and start scraping...
The voices say "duct tape the scraper to the shop vac".. yeah that's the ticket..

While I'm at it I guess I should try to pop the timing cover off and see what's in there..

As far as checking the trans cover, that won't be hard. The floor's gone so I don't even have to get under the car. I can stick my head through the hole and have a look... wish I'd thought of that yesterday..

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&d=1321204723

Always wanted one of those "swiss cheese' cars.. got me one now!

The lines on that car are beautiful. I wish I had the skill and other resources to be able to bring one like that back from the edge of death.

Nice project. Outside of the wheels, I wouldn't change a thing on the outside of the car...

Thanks for the encouragement fellers..

I've been vacuuming and scraping today.. Got most of the gunk cleaned out of the valley.. I have too much regular job work for a couple of days to mess with the wagon, but ASAP I'm going pull all the rockers, pushrods and lifters and clean them all up real good too. I want to see if there are any cupped lifters or worn cam lobes... If all goes well I'll slap the valley pan and intake back on, Swap the carb with something I know has worked in the past 3 years at least, check the timing and dwell as suggested above and hope she fires up...

On a different note, the insulators on the wires of the tailgate harness have crumbled to dust... I'm going to need a new pigtail from the tailgate to up inside the fender.. The window was stuck about an inch above where it should have been to get the tailgate to close.. I removed the tailgate, cleaned all the rodent turds and rust out of it, lubed it all up and figured out which wires worked the UP and DOWN functions... Got it to roll up and down with the electric motor.. Sluggish at first but then she started going real well.. Up and down about 10 times was enough.. I got it back on the car and closed/latched it for the first time in probably 34 years...

Sad thing is that the 3rd seat is shot.. Totally rotted and the floor under it is completely gone.. Gas tank is ready to fall out since there are no straps anymore.. It's just wedged in here now... I'm supposing this car may never be brought back to be even "real good" because the back end and tailgate jambs are so wasted, but I intend to fix it up decent enough to drive and park in the lot at the car shows at least...

I wonder how many of these 3 on the tree 60 wagons are left out there?

My '58 was a 3 on the tree and only had the light duty 3 speed.

And if you're gate harness was that crumbly, you need to be careful of the rest of it. I'd hate to see an electrical fire shut you down after you get things going. At the very least, go wiggle all the wires you can and replace any that the insulation comes off of...

Great find and worthy of making some sort of driver out of it, IMO.

With all the rust-thru, I would probably pull out the whole interior and replace missing floor with generic tin; I would also leave the doors. There is rust and there's RUST...I think your rust levels are manageable.

Also, '60 thru '62 (maybe '63, too, not sure) use an iron cam gear, unlike the '64-'67 stuff I have dealt with. These 389s also have rocker-stud-oiling, not pushrod-oiling. With all of the other positives going for the engine, you may still have sticky / hangin'-open valves but I blame the carb at this moment. Swap in a known-good one as you said earlier and see what comes of it. Also, these engines will start even setting the timing to 0 deg ("straight up"). If you have a known-good distributor, I would sub that in, too.

Please keep us posted, MOJO!

Thanks for the input. We're on the same page for sure...

The thing about the doors on the driver's side is that they are rotted at the under side sill part so the outer skin has come apart from the inner box. Not too bad on the passenger side.. I suppose I could have a "bridge" piece welded in on the under side... Foot well for the third seat is gonzo.. years of having the tailgate window open...

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...6&d=1321309457
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...7&d=1321309486


Must have had the rear passenger door window down too. Seat hinge and floor under it are bye-bye..


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&d=1321309509


See guys? Not as much to covet here as you (or I) originally thought...

I don't care though.. I have enough '60 parts around here to make it run and stop.. Rivets are cheap too. A buddy of mine is a welder and another guy I know is in the heating and air biz so I'll raid his galvanized pile for some flooring...

Keep the good advice and encouragement coming.. I appreciate it very much.

YOUR GETTING TO SPEND WAY MORE TIME ON YOURS THAN I ON MINE, SOUNDS LIKE YOUR REALLY IN TO IT. I RE NEWED THE WIRES IN MY TAILGATE ALSO, THEY GOT PINCHED AT THE BUMPER. THIS DIAGRAM WILL HELP IF YOU START THE JOB ONE DAY AND CANT GET BACK TO IT FOR A FEW DAYS. L O L .DONT FORGET TO REBUILD THE SAFETY SWITCH IN THE JAMB, IT CAN DRIVE YOU SILLY LOOKING FOR A OPEN WIRE IF ITS NOT FUNCTONING.

Thanks for the schematic.. Yeah, the bumper did it's thing but whatever plastic/rubber product they used to wrap these wires in wasn't really meant to last 50+ years I guess...

I always go like gangbusters on a project like this for the first month and hope to get it at least running and stopping... It blows their minds at the auto parts store when I pull up in what they call "Another Dead Fish" that's draggin' a tree branch and the exhaust pipe... They'll flip over this wagon, especially when I show up with a giant guitar on the roof!

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._7708051_n.jpg

...I was wondering what you meant in your video about "wait till they see what I put on the roof"... Now I know!

I see wagons with surf boards on the roof all the time..
Mine will have a "Surf Guitar."

When I first got my Catalina I was searching the web for photos and found the old postcard of the '60 Safari with the Giant Fish on the roof.

Come to think of it, I found this board that same day..

OK, back on the topic... Last night I took off all the rockers and see at least 7 of the are worn at the contact point, 4 pretty badly.. Looks like where they contact the valves is pitted on some and worn to distortion on others. I slid the pushrods up and they hung in place due to the sludge so I tried to get a lifter out.. Well, there's a mushroom cap of crud on each one that's so thick that they won't come out! I'm sure I can get them out with some scrapping or some other means but should I bother at this point? It appears they travel up and down far enough to function..

What's anybody say? Clean the loose stuff off, relube the lifters, put it all back together and try to get it going?

I'm keeping everything in order but this rocker/valve contact wear is eating me..
Anybody ever "tuned up" this contact point while the valve was still in the head and on the car?

And another question... Are the heads on the A1 engine the same as the ones on the A2?
Is it different pistons that make the economy engine or is it the head chambers?

The Best and Worst of the rockers.. All have noticeable wear... One is worn comepletely through.. I have a couple of engines I can pull better ones from so I won't be putting the real bad ones back on..

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...7&d=1321370001

OMG! I am thinking that this engine is toast...looks like the stud oiling passages are blocked in some cases. Keep in mind that replacement rockers (& related) that don't get lubed are heading for the same fate.

Stud oiled rockers 'eh? Well, I guess they're plugged pretty good because I had to pry at least half of them off with a claw hammer and the others I had to twist around back and forth a few times to get them off. (yeah yeah, that's what she said...)

MOJO.....dished pistons reduced the compression from 10.25 (standard) to 8.6 on the 425E engine. Smaller combustion chamber on the 425A raised it to 10.75......John

These early Pontiac V8s pumped oil from the lifters up through the push rods to lubricate the interface between the top of the pushrod and the rocker arm, but unlike later engines there is no hole in the rocker arm for the oil to go through and lubricate the rest of the rocker arm and valve. To get that lubrication Pontiac passed oil through the #2 and #4 cam journals and up through the block to a gallery in each head. The bottom of the rocker studs is in that gallery. The rocker studs have a small hole bored up the center of the stud most of the way to the top. In the area behind the rocker ball another small hole joins the one in the center. Pressurized oil passes from the gallery up through the studs and out into the area between the stud and rocker ball. It lubes the rocker ball to rocker arm interface and dribbles out the valve end of the rocker, lubing the rocker to valve stem interface and the valve. Pictures here in the GMC truck maintenance manual.
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com...5559mm435.html
GMC trucks from 55 through 59 used Pontiac V8s.