4000 to spend what should I do
 

Ok if you had 4000 to spend and the goal was a really strong running street engine, what would you do? Stroker? SD ported heads? E heads, Roller cam? Etc Question left vague on to encourage options.

1968 Firebird
Block: 1967 WT (GTO) 9786133 (Stock)
Heads: 1968 #16 (Stock)
Exhaust: Doug's Headers, Flowmaster 80 Series 2 chamber cross flow Delta Flow muffler
Intake: Edelbrock Performer
Carb: Edelbrock Thunder AVS Carburetor 1813 800cfm
Ignition: MSG Pro Billet 12 to 37 by 2600rpm
Coil: Pentronix Can
Cam: Edelbrock Performer (204/214 110) (came with the car. understand the limitations)
Tranny: TH400
Rear: Built 8.5" 3.42

First thing I would do is forged rods & pistons, good bolts and good machining holding it together. Won't make any more power, but it's gotta be done, and worth the peace of mind.

My next move, would probably be based on the remaining buget; I'd look to the cam, and see how far the buget would let me go with possible swaps to springs, torq verter, and gear. At that same point, which is more based on my style of driving - I would also consider keeping money off the cam for the time being and swapping to a 4-speed, loosing as much weight off of the front end(fiberglass), the weight and tread width of my wheel and tire package, possible suspension geometry changes(Guildstrand and Adams), and making the chassis as ridged as possible. Also a game changer; Got disc brakes in the front? Got a good seat that keeps you in the same spot with a head rest? And got at least a good 3-point belt?

Interesting recommendations. I like the idea or a tougher lower end, but with no more power, it doesn't seem necessary. I am hoping to build more power, and still have a reliable engine. The car is already equipped with a Hotchkis suspension system, big stabilizer bar, 17" rims, kyb shocks, and some sticky tires. It handles amazingly well. It runs out of steam really quickly right now, all done making power at low 4000 rpms. I want it to pull to 5000, and make more power. It is a bit disappointing as compared to my other brand cars.

JMHO,the weak link in our pontiac engines would be the rods.With the power level your looking at I would for sure get a set of good forged rods.Many pontiac shops can supply for around or under $300.More power with street maners will come from CI so a stroker kit would be on my list.THEN a cam tailored to your street driven RPMs.Without a doubt I would go with a hyd roller.There is a few things for you to chew on.Tom

stroked rotating assembly. I use HR cam's pretty much in every build - but if your on a budget it is expensive.


I'd get a cast eagle crank stroker kit w/ forged rods and pistons cc'ed for your heads. You can always upgrade to aluminum heads in the future. You'll need a new cam, the Ramair IV melling hydraulic is cheap and'll do well w/ the stroker. Only other issue would be the performer intake but you can change that down the road too.

Find a good machine shop to help w/ the shortblock.

Port the heads and up the cam. I'm no fan of that brand of carb either but it should flow enough. The engine is an air pump. It needs more air. The RPM intake is a better choice but you'll have hood clearance problems. And lighter, better rods and pistons wouldn't hurt if you intend to spin it much beyond 6000 RPM. You mention headers and exhaust so I'm assuming it's 2.5 inch or better.

Is there a good knowledgable machine shop in the Binghamton NY region, or within a driving distance? I hadn't thought about just using the existing heads and using a dished piston. That would save a bunch of m

Sorry fat finger mistake. Using ported stock heads would save money. Is it possible to get the machine work done, put in a stroker kit, and port the heads for 4K? that assumes using a hft cam and my existing intake or Pontiac stocker.

are you going to race it? Is it a commuter car?

Cam
Stall Converter
Fuel system

When your car runs 12:00 with that 400 then go for the beefed up bottom end.

by the way... I just saved you $3000!!!!

Rich

That clears up the chassis questions.

On the dished piston; I'd probably avoid it. If your just using the car once in a while, you'd just be fueling it the same way you do now. I favor long term reliability and potental on the bottom end as opposed to getting power or cheap gas now. If you go with a dish, what happens to the quench area and the flame travel, and how does that limit future things like aluminum heads or cam choices? I ran a 224/234 @ .050 on a 400, that motor lasted a while with a stock rods and bolts, but I'd probably still be hot dogging that motor now had I had a better bottom end. And you could also talk to someone about dynamic compression and the oct required - you may be killing two problems(power & fuel) that way, as opposed to creating potential problems for building power(inefficient combustion process). But on the other hand, with the stroker, your high cr 400 heads with more cu in under them, the compression is going to just jump outta useable range, and you'll not be able to use it till you get new heads. Hmmm...

Maybe some of the race section or engine builder guys will come over and help with fuel, cr, and your goals. I'm near the limit of my knowlege on these things.

My usage is not a commuter car, but also not a race car. I will drive it to work and on an occasion will take it a test and tune for fun. I guess I thought the dished pistons would work with my 72cc heads and later with a 72cc edelbrock. I see SD can port cast iron heads to around 240cfm. Seems like a stroker with cast crank, forged pistons and rods would be plenty durable. With a good HFT cam, is 450hp possible with this setup? Is there issues with using domed pistons to get CR down to an acceptable level?

always spend as much as you can on the bottom end.

that being said, I would also make the car safe to drive at increased speeds

Double your budget and build what you really want!

4000 Will not be enough! It always costs more in the end! Buy this then have your heads done...


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...59#post4462859

Turbo!!

Carb professionaly built to your spec's.
Continental Convertor built to your spec's.

No kidding.

X2!

That 455 shortblock sounds like a good combo for a fair price.

The problem with dishing the pistons too much is that alum heads can tolerate more compression than iron for a given fuel. So if you dish for 9.5:1 with iron, you're stuck with that compression for alum heads with 72cc chambers. Flattops with aluminum heads can run 10-10.5:1 with properly chosen cam and machine work. And that makes more power everywhere.

It's been my experience that having a set of factory irons totally rebuilt and street ported will cost about $1500-2000. So compare that cost to a set of alum heads, and see what the budget shakes out.

Choose engine size, HP desired, compression ratio and pistons/heads. Piston choices change as engine size changes. Head selection changes based on compression, piston choices and HP desired...

Also consider the support systems for the engine. You WILL need to redesign the fuel system to support over 375 HP. Headers require moving the brake lines around. You will need a healthy radiator, shroud, fan, 11 bolt pump, etc. Good torque converters are $400-700.

I tell you, the chevy's I have owned in the past were much easier to get running. Cam, intake, exhaust...good to go. What about that approach, with a twist. Replace the rods and rod bolts with stronger stock spec units. Keep original pistons and a light hone and freshen up the rings. Use existing crank. Then use edelbrock d ports 72cc cnc ported. Replace cam with roller. Stay with 1.5 rockers. Or go over budget a bit and bore it and install some forged pistons as well, of course then you right there on the stroker kit.

D ports 2400 bucks
Rods and bolts 400 bucks
Rings
Roller cam 600 bucks
Still leaves 600 bucks for stuff in general.

Negatives would be the heads are no good for a stroker.
Not sure what it takes to install the roller, blocks changes?
Is it bad to keep stock pistons, are they a weak link? Is it possible.
What kind of power are people building with this combo?

I think it is crazy to have to spend 8000.00 to get a strong running Pontiac street engine.

First buy and read both Jim Hand's and Rocky Rotellas books.

If $4k was my limit, I would stick with iron heads, intake and probably LBHO manifolds. I would put $ into the rotating assembly (forged crank, rods and slugs), choose the right cam, converter (if going automatic), ignition and carb.

If it's a first-build, See if you can find an experienced builder who will help you put it together yourself.

That shortblock is a good deal..good eye..

You could build a strong 400 for about 5K.

72cc Edelbrock heads: $2100
Forged rods: $400
Forged pistons and rebuild kit $600
FT Cam, lifters, chain, pushrods, rockers: $600
Machine work: $1000
Oil pans, valve covers, fluids, various parts: 500

So you can build a 450HP 400 for about $5200

That 455 shortblock's looking like a good deal......

That shortblock is a good deal, but he would lose alot of budget shipping from CA to NY.

Rods, cam , some really nice heads and a good converter could be done for 4k. converter.

Building on what Tom said in Post #4, it is necessary to replace known weak areas to let the engine live a long life. This requires replacing the stock rods, and the stock valves. Attached is a picture that was just sent to me a couple of days ago by one of our club members. He had his stock engine rebuilt with a standard valve job and new springs. In less than a thousand miles, the head of a stock two-piece valve broke off and took out the piston and punched a hole in the cylinder wall. Quality of the picture isn't good, but you can get the idea.

Don't sweat the 800 AVS carb, I'm running two of them (2+2 and Cruiser) and they have been the most trouble free carbs I've owned. With the 800 CFM flow and the adjustable air flap, the carb performs excellent.

I would say that Stobin's engine even with the shipping would be a good deal. Problem is that the flat top pistons require either 87cc aluminum heads or 100cc cast iron heads. I wouldn't consider the purchase unless I was going to replace the current heads.

Almost every piston manufacturer now produce a "D" shaped piston dish which retains the quench area, so there is no down side to lowering compression with the pistons.

What I have seen in our area, is $4,000 will almost cover a standard stroker kit, machine work, and cast iron head work to include valves, springs, hardened seats, and cutting the guides for Viton seals. Adding aluminum heads would add another $1,200+ to the price. And this is if you do all your own assembly and don't pay someone to bolt it all together.

Thanks for all the help. I do have Jim Hand's book and read it through and through years ago. Since then, many new low cost parts are available, these option I think make it harder to pick a direction for a build. With these Pontiacs being low rpm engines, you need big cubes, this again makes it difficult with the high compression heads.

Here is what caught my eye. Chiphead...build a strong 400 for about 5K, based on a solid bottom end and modern E heads. I would stay with the stock crank. lust4speed.....build a solid stroker with iron heads and dished pistons. I would assemble it myself, and would give the simple port job a go as per Jim's book. It seems that all agree the rods and bolts need to go. I agree, and think about each time I push my engine to 5K, which is everytime I drive it.

I would definately stay with my existing performer manifold, seen many an article that indicate it really is not far off from the rpm, and in some cases does better. That would be a cheap upgrade later anyhow. I would stick with the Edel 800 AVS, that is a good carb, those that think not have not spent a few minutes with it. The exhaust would need to stay the same, Dougs headers, with the 2.5" flowmaster. Converter, would love a Continental, but will settle for a Hughs. The entire drivetrain was redone last year and can handle the power. My existing ignition system is fine. Will need to beef up the fuel and cooling though. Got a few of those parts laying around, cooling is more difficult.

Now which direction to go:
Strong 400 like Chiphead indicated, based on E Heads and FT cam?
Strong stroker like Lust4speed indicated, exisitng heads, dished pistons, light head clean up by me and Hand's book, with a HFT cam?

Either engine will be durable, and fun to drive. I will have to do some more DD simulation to compare the curves and my intended street (and ocassion track) power curves.

did you get a hold of mr bush in jamestown? he may have some things like heads around he used to race ponitacs...

Not yet, I will give him a ring. Thanks for the information.

Find another 4000 dollars and build the motor you want

not sure it this was mentioned or not.....whatever you think the cost will be, double it........you can piddle 4 grand away on a pontiac... EASY

if your bottom end is sound.....throw some alluminum heads on it...cam to match.....bye bye 4 g's....thats doing ALL the work yourself...

X2If you have the funds..go for it!