Couple of H-O TurboForce restos going on
 

I hope I'm not jumping the gun and embarrassing either of these guys, but I've been in phone and email contact recently with a couple of reputable guys who are doing restoration or what-ifs on the H-O TurboForce. I figure they can use the encouragement as well as other information and knowledge that I am able to give them and maybe some can come from replies on this thread.

1) Mike Barefoot is the webmaster of TransAmCountry.com. He's doing a combo TurboForce and FireAm "what if". I'm a sort of "consultant" on this project. Mike has written up an intro:

http://transamcountry.com/site/turbo-fire-am

2) Jim & Joe Hand are doing some kind of resto/upgrade on a Turbo Macho T/A. I'm also a sort of "consultant" on this project in that Joe is talking to me by phone on some of the long forgotten details and "what to avoids" on it. I don't have a website for this one (yet).

Also, if you want to see my "TurboForce Revival" on my website, see:

http://originalho.com/TurboForce.html

My 1976 Firebird Esprit "TurboForce Revival" car is for sale and a couple of guys are interested in it. We'll see where that goes. I need to move on to other projects.

By way of performance index, "back in the day", I was once asked to do a drag strip test on a customer's 1979 T/A T-F, we took it to the old OCIR. Without much tuning, but with slicks, Cal-Tracks and open exaust it ran 11.97 @ 115 on a stock engined T-F. Pretty spectacular in 1979 for a "street car". LOL

Anyway, as I get more info on these two builds, I'll update this thread.

So what do you think that the original Turboforce car was making Horsepower/torque wise to run that 11.97 at 115? (Weight of the car, etc vs HP from the engine)

What do the guys want to make for power/torque for these resto builds?

How much different was the Horsepower Ken Crocie made a few years ago with his Turbo dyno project vs the HP these guys desire?

Tom Vaught

I figured that out at the time and the calculation comes out at about 400 RWHP and 460 Flywheel HP. A few years ago I ran a Dyno2000 sim on a T-F equipped stock 1978 W72 400 and came close to that (450HP).

I don't think either of those projects want to set the world on fire with a maxed out T-F.

Ken's project was somewhat different. He used a stroker crank in the 400 for something like 480CID and also modified the turbo so that it was bigger. I don't remember about head work or cam. In any case on the Westech dyno it made 538HP and 738lb-ft! Those are pretty impressive numbers, IMO. I don't think you could drive that on the street (in full song) in a stock 1978 WS6 Trans Am 4-speed, but that's the car where it's installed!

Craig

First off, I really appreciate the advice and help you've given me Craig. I hope I can do your system justice. I'll do my best to keep the topic up to date on my progress. As for goals. I just want to build it, have fun doing it and see what comes of it. My last TA was a 77SE that was respectable, but not very streetable. I'm going to keep this engine mild and let the turbo do the work. I would say that my engine build will be much like the revival car, but I will be using an MSD BTM box for my ignition solution. I am reproducing the Fire Am suspension using pro-touringf-body pieces.

Today, I have the Fire Am setup ready to go and I am in major disassembly mode. I was hoping to have the front sub frame off the car, so I can rebuild it and fab the turboforce brackets. I wanted more room while I did this part, so I moved the body outside. You would know it rained all weekend, so I couldn't work on it.

Mike

I actually just dug up the old Hot Rod article on the Macho TAs from '78 if anyone want a copy.

Hi fellows, I am Joe Hand, Jims youngest son. I am the one helping with a turbo T/A project. We are seeking fuel and ignition advice. Craig all ready has helped a bunch and has sent us in the right directions. We would like to know what ignition systems are available and what type of fuel pumps others are using. This is not going to be a race car, our local track is closed so it will never see one. We want reliability and decent power, yet still look like the dealer installed kit the car came with, or as close to it as we can get. This is a original 1978 Macho T/A with turbo charger package, one of only 20 installed that year!

We have some work ahead of us. The motor needs partially taken apart for a cam check and to look at its condition. Its a ten year old rebuild that was never started. Once its started and broke in, then we are going to install the turbo parts, all while on the test stand for easy of fitting and checking location and what not.

Thanks again for your offers of help, we are going to need them,

Joe

Based on the targets Craig posted, what is wrong with a "Boost Referenced" Mechanical Fuel Pump? (Chevy "6 valve" pump with a Pontiac Arm like Ken Crocie came up with years ago.)

If you were trying to make more Horsepower then a Aeromotive A-1000 Electric Pump and a Aeromotive 13202 "Boost Referenced" Regulator would be a one time buy and give you lots of fuel reserve.

Tom Vaught

H-O finally gave up on the boost referenced mechanical pump (Carter HD/HV) even back in the day. The diaphram stretches at even 6psi boost, so the fuel outlet pressure does not follow the boost reference. In addition, the diaphram is prone to cracking, which means that when that happens gas goes up the boost reference line! IMO, the ONLY proper solution is a 60gph+ electric pump at the back of the car with AT LEAST 20psi of static fuel pressure (30+ would be even better.) Of course you need a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator and a big enough return line so that the regulator can hold the pressure at the carb inlet at 6psi relative.

The Aeromotive setup (or equivalent) is definitely a way to go. You could probably get by with something smaller, more along the lines of the Holley 12-920 inline (67GPH@45psi).


Craig

A1000 and a 13202 regulator here.

I have seen a lot of failures with Holley electric Fuel Pumps over the last 40 years so I will stick with my A1000 and a 13202 regulator recommendations. So what is the HP target for these vehicles?

Tom Vaught

I was going to follow Craigs advice on my fuel system. Also, when Craig and I spoke on the phone I want to say he mentioned putting a larger pickup line on the sender unit. I'm planning on do this to mine. As for the ignition I am looking at the MSD BTM setup. It is a 6al box, with a rev limiter and boost retard.

Tom, we have no horsepower number in mind, we want a decent running, reliable car, besides, we all now numbers don't mean anything anyway.

We to plan to follow Craig's system advice. We are still looking at pumps and all the options. Holley pumps have worked great for dad and I over the years. We are still not leaning towards MSD yet.

joe

1) Nothing wrong with having a decent running, reliable running car. So the first question would be what is your definition of "a decent running" car? Is this a 350 HP 400 cid engine?, 400 HP?, 450 HP?, 500 HP?

So your goals see pretty vague when discussion what fuel pump/fuel system you need with boost. 70bird has a Firebird (Actual Street Car) with a turbo system that he put together that is very reliable and makes 700+ hp. He recommended the A1000 pump and a 13202 regulator, which he knows actually works.

So the numbers actually do mean something.

Course if you are planning on RESTORING a Turboforce car with the same 301 Rajay turbo that was installed in 1978 and the making that level of HP then use exactly what Craig recommended as it worked in 1978 for that HP level. Craig told me one time that he thought the Turbo Force system put out about 450 HP. You can make 450 HP with just about any fuel pump, even a Holley Blue Pump.

Tom Vaught

I did not mention a 550 HP number because Ken Crocie needed a 489 cid engine to make 537 HP at 4400 rpm at 8 psi of boost with the Turbo Force system and a upgraded Turbo (vs the stock Rajay 301 Turbocharger) and a Dyno optimized Q-jet.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...d/viewall.html

Tom Vaught

We are not interested in 700 hp, but if the pump and ignition work well, then thats something we will look into. Can we get a link to the company that sells them? We are using the original turbo from '78 along with the Q-jet and factory exhaust.

Joe

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-pa...000-fuel-pump/

"This is the pump that started it all. Durable, reliable, good looking and it supports high horsepower. Perfect for the daily driver that doesnʼt run like a daily drive"

The aeromotive 13202 is about 10 bucks more at Jegs than the 13204 but is a known boosted engine regulator with very high durability. I would buy the 13202 personally.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/13204/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/13202/10002/-1

Tom Vaught

Here ya go.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13202

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-11101

Got me Tom! lol.

We here in Arizona have enjoyed having Craig attend and speak at Pontiac Heaven events each spring here in Phoenix and wish to invite the owners of these builds to attend as well. You would be very welcome here. We are proud fans of the H-O legacy in Pontiac history.

Don't forget the wastegate.
 

I also mentioned to Mike and Joe and it was an important part of Ken Crocie's Car Craft T-F tune: the original Turbonetics wastegate was only good when the exhaust was restricted with the original stock "pancake" cat and also the single behind the axle muffler. As soon as one opens up the exhaust system (dual Hi-Po cats or omitting same and good flowing mufflers), the Turbonetics wastegate cannot bypass enough exhaust to control the boost. If you note on Ken's CC setup, he used a much bigger wastegate relocated to the front 3in turbo inlet pipe. That worked.

I still have a Turbonetics wastegate on my Revival Firebird and on WOT, the boost will bang over to 10psi almost instantly even with the wastgate full open. Fortunately, I have an auxilliary fuel tank that I can fill with 102 octane (racing) gas and switch over to that if I want to make a full out run. Otherwise, I keep it about half throttle (a couple PSI boost).

If I had to put a "hope for" number out there it would be 400hp-450hp. I want to be able to drive my car several days a week and enjoy it as well as stay competitive with newer cars. Like Joe I bought My TA with a several years old rebuild that had never been ran. Well they said for about 30 seconds. I did get it running and performed a break in, but that was almost 2 years ago. I know, I know....I should have been done by now. My project sadly has taken the backseat while I researched and purchased the fire am suspension. The TurboForce system wasn't added to the project until a few months ago. Again like Joe I am going to have to tear the motor down to check it. The engine was rebuilt using a PAW kit and the previous owner couldn't recall the cam type. With PAW out of business I can't contact them to see what he purchased. Not to mention two of the large freeze plugs fell out of the block during the engine start. The engine is on a stand right now and visibly there are no cracks, but the machine shop will have the last word on that subject. I did find it odd that the same plug just beside the manifold exhaust flange on both sides are what fell out. Hopefully nothing is wrong, but I will be prepared for bad news. I was planning on installing a cam similar to the one used in the revival car. I was hoping to go with a 2043 Nunzi cam, but that was before adding the TurboForce to my plans and I understand that Nunzi is retired now. I had a 2042 in my last TA and I loved it. Being that I am new to forced induction I am going to start with the system as close as I can to the original. Once I have the system and engine worked out I am not opposed to exploring the use of intercoolers. My TA has a brand new 2-1/4 pypes dual system with cats on it when I bought it, so I will have to go with a waste gate. I am looking at airesearch T04B units like the one used on the revival bird, but I'm open to suggestions on other brands. I'm trying not to break the bank, but I do understand that turbos aren't cheap.

My engine is not #s matching, but the carb is correct. I'm going to email Cliff R to get the rebuild kit I need and then its off to Tom Benvengi for a rebuild with necessary mods. The engine is a 400 bored 30 with 6x-4 and a performer intake. The distributer had been rebuilt by Rocky during the rebuild. Regardless of what happens with the block there is my current situation.

Craig, Did you have this wastegate:

DeltaGate:

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/part...e_Mark_II/2099

"Turbonetics DeltaGate Mark II Wastegates
Designed for durability, with a 1.250 stainless steel valve, nomex/silicone diaphragm and with a unique stand- off actuator section, the DELTAGATE can control boost on engines that develop 350-400 HP. With the addition of a Variable Boost Control Regulator (PN 10402) the DELTAGATE is fully adjustable over a wide boost range."

Vs this wastegate: RG45

"RG-45 Wastegates (700+ HP) Features V-Band connections in & out, a 45mm valve dianeter and cast stainless steel base for strength and durability. Measures slightly more than the slim Evolution Wastegate. A high temp fluro-silicone diaphragm allows predictable and repeatable boost control."

Lots of people use/sell this wastegate:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&s...w=1096&bih=526

Tom Vaught

Tom, that's similar, but not exactly the same as the waste gate on my Revival car. I had Kern go through it to freshen it up (which it needed) after I got the Revival assembled. It also does have a variable boost control, but it's control is external and it only serves to increase the boost beyond the base (uncontrolled) level. Since I already have more than enough boost, I've never used it. Some of our local customers back in the day used the variable boost control and I've personally seen 15psi with it cranked up.

Craig

Joe again, I have the distributor all cleaned and ready to set the advance. I have it on a distributor machine so I can set the mechanical about anywhere it needs to be. I know what a standard engine likes and can set them pretty quick.
What does a boosted engine need for mechanical advance?
Where should I limit the stops and when should it start to advance?
What about the vacuum advance, is it still used along with the electronic controller?


Joe

Joe,

I had a delay in conacting Ken Crocie. It turns out his computer crashed and is not yet back up. If you want his phone number, PM me and I'll provide it.

Anyway, I wanted his input because of his recent experience with the CC dyno T-F. His numbers are pretty much what I would've recommended.

12BTDC initial at 600-800 RPM
24 deg (crank) mechanical advance at 2400RPM, i.e., 36deg total
unboosted vacuum advance at 10inHG: 14 deg, i.e., 50 deg total
BTM retard curve: 1-2 deg per PSI, i.e., 10deg retard at 7-10psi, i.e., 26-28 total @ 7-10psi

Fine tune from there in the actual car.

Of course, you want to creep up on these numbers from the conservative side.

Craig

Thanks Craig, thats what I was looking for. Its pretty close to how we set n/a engines. Once in the car running, we will creep up on the final settings.

Joe

I think we invented the "dial a boost" back in '77. We had a customers car come in witha Fairbanks TH400 and a "dial a shift".This varied the amount of vacuum applied to the modulator to change shift "feel". We got the idea to apply this to the unused port in the (then new) Deltagate. Dial a boost was born. Were we first? I dont know , but there weren't a lot of CO's in the turbo biz back then.
Fuel pumps: We used the Holley "blue" with the Moroso "high pressure spring" which boosted the pressure to 20 psi, enableing boost pressures of 10-12 psi. At that time we retained the boost compensated mechanical pump which was much more reliable than the Holley elec. and came up with an elec.pump automatic bypass device so that the elec. pump would not have to run full time.

Moroso PN 65770. Says 19psi. Current item. Use a AN washer for back up on the spring for fine tunning of the PSI.
More stuff flooding in. Remember the black, plastic, 2 1/8", enclosed rectangular gauge cluster. Held 3 SW delux gauges. Had a Fuel pressure, bonnet pressure and manifold pressure. My job as a 7 year old was to watch all three gauges (usually taped to the windshield or in my lap) and report my tracking data to the Boss. Those cars hauled ass. 2.41 gears and a th400. Only way to go! First gear was fantastic. It just kept pulling to 60mph or something. My dad was always trying to find the limits. So 14-15 psi boost, 301e rayjay w/1.3 housing and 400-455 cubes. Very fun. And dont think there were not "Special" turbo cars at H-O. Pioneers for sure.

So when are you going to figure out how to post those pictures of the HO racing Flow Bench, Ken? (;>)

Tom Vaught

Hes got some small vac. lines running to the side of the computer tower right now. Might be cooling lines of some sort. There is a diaphram, and I see some Dorman brass. I will call him tonite to check on him. He has been barking a lot, and mumbling. But mostly barking. Its hard to hear over the Beethoven.

Hi guys, work is progressing on the T/A, the brakes are being finalized so the car can be moved around to get the engine out. Our next step is going to be partial engine tear down for inspection then on to the test stand for a break-in run.

I have a question about waste gates and blow off valves. Being as turbo stupid as I am, can you explain what the each do and why you need them? I only work on diesels and we never have any turbo problems other then the Ford 6.0L, and those were just bad from the get go.

We would like to limit the boost on the T/A to about 6 or 7 till it gets some miles on it and we feel comfortable with how its running since the car hasn't been road worthy since the early '90s. We are sticking with the original Turboforce parts for now as this is what the budget allows. This is also a four speed car, with a 3.42 rear axle, and with that combination, there won't be much room for error between shifts.

Joe

H-O used both a wastegate and a blow-off valve on the TurboForce, but not at the same time and not always.

A wastegate is on the inlet side (between exhaust manifolds and turbo exhaust scroll). It bleeds off exhaust flow and pressure to control the boost indirectly. A wastegate lives in a hot environment being attached to an exhaust pipe somewhere. We usually ran them without an outlet pipe and muffler; you can definitely hear the "whoosh" when it opens up.

A blow-off valve is on the outlet side (between turbo outlet scroll and the pressure hat). It opens when the boost pressure exceeds its setting so it controls the boost directly. A blow-off valve lives in a more benign environment than a wastegate and is more effective on controlling the boost into the carburetor when you go from WOT to throttles closed quickly. However, a blow-off valve potentially lets the turbo overspeed and therefore operate further away from the sweet spot island on the turbo map.

Even though the wastegate is a little more expensive, that's what I would recommend. As a matter of fact, the earlier versions of the TurboForce pressure hat had a pad cast in the side which could be machined for mounting a blow-off valve. The final and best version of the pressure hat had eliminated that pad.

Craig

I remember that Pad.

Tom Vaught

Question...did you guys ever try adapting a Corvair turbo vac advance/boost retard to a stock distributor?

They worked well and allowed @10 degrees retard.(iirc book said 9-11) My turbo Spyder I ran @24 initial which didnt advance further till @ 4000 then went to 36 degrees by @4500.
By/between 1-2 psi boost It gave a full 10 degrees retard. So basically from 2 psi boost... advance was 14 degrees till 4000 rpm and totaled 26 degrees by 4500. I never checked but would guess vac advance at light load high vacuum would add 10 degrees. Regardless it worked quite well and IMO more reliable way to control boost retard than trusting electronic control. On 99+ octane or better I ran over 20 psi without issue...when pump gas went to hell in the 70's I had to add water injection or find race gas or av gas.(not conveniant for a regular driver). My water injection was a simple boost activated/regulated "spray gun principle" system pre compressor and quite effective.

The Corvair turbo vac/boost canister is not easy to find and kind of pricey these days(Clarks corvair parts) and not just a simple bolt on to a Delco v8 distributor. (point or hei) Doable though.
I do know there are some GM Ford and Mopar apps that had a port on each side of the advance canister. These might be the better alternative as boost applied on the vac advance side would/could allow retard provided the diaphram in the canister can push the arm beyond its static position.

I'm sort of keeping an eye out for one...anyone know of that type cannister on anything, I'll get one and figure out, not just how to mount one, but make it adjustable as well. If there is one where the cannister allows access to the spring and diaghram that would be even better.
Thanks

Corvair turbo vacuum advance/boost retard
 

Bruce,

You are referring to this:

http://originalho.com/images/HeiVacAdvRet3.jpg

That's how H-O supplied the kit back in the day although I made this one for my "TurboForce Revival" Bird from a new Corvair unit and a used HEI vac advance. There was also another application that had a boost retard feature, but I don't remember which, but I think Ken Crocie knows. As you mentioned, H-O had to modify the standard distributor vacuum advance for the larger-in-diameter HEI, which is shown in the picture.

Yes, they are quite pricey today, if you can even find one. That's why it makes sense to use the MSD Boost Timing Master (BTM) instead if you don't have the one H-O provided. I'd guess that Joe has one, but I know that Mike does not. But, I have the adapted Corvair unit on mine.

Here ya go, Tom:

http://originalho.com/images/BonnetFirst_frontView.jpg

On my 1978 Turbo Macho T/A with 1972 455 engine (not the W72 engine), I had both a wastegate and a blow-off valve. I had the last generation pressure hat specially modified by Kern in order to fit the blow-off valve. It was on the other side of the hat than shown in the above picture. It was a belt & suspenders kind of solution to boost control.

I may just make something Craig. Maybe use a vac secondary diaghram and a pair of springs from old vac advance units put springs on both sides. Shouldnt be hard to fab a can,bracket etc.. Might look a bit odd...maybe not if I do some detailin'. Maybe make it adjustable too.

What this car has must be the waste gate, its mounted down under the engine on the exhaust system. I only looked at for a minute or two. It has a small hose running to it, right dead center of the top. I assume the boost pressure opens this at a set point. Is it adjustable? The whole top seemed to rotate but it could just be loose or defective.

So if I understand this right, the waste gate controls the exhaust going to the turbo. As boost comes up the waste gate opens at a pre set pressure thus dumping excess exhaust away from the turbo. This seems like a good choice as the turbo would not need to work any harder then needed.

A blow off valve is on the clean side of the turbo and acts like a pre set pop off valve. Once it opens, the turbo can still wind up due to the excess exhaust build up in the system thus over speeding the turbo shaft. Does the turbo know the blow off is open? or does it continue building boost only to have the blow off dumping the excess away? I can see how it would limit the amount to the engine, but it seems a funny way of doing it.

Thanks for the lessons,

Joe

The waste gate controls speed of turbo if only a blow off was used the boost would be limited but the turbo now unloaded when blow-off opens would zip to overspeed. Also blow off valve helps keep shaft speed up when the car is shifted to next gear and the rpm drops so it aids shift rpm recovery too. nice to have both if only one choice the wastegate is more important than the blow-off on a turbo motor. Blow off also prevents bending large or weak throttle blades when throttle is snapped close after high boost.

Where would you dump the blow off to?

This is a small turbo and I suspect will spool very quickly. I don't think lag time will be any problem and with a four speed you will never feel it.

I will get some pictures of the waste gate.

Joe

Usually the outlet of the wastegate is plumbed into the exhaust pipe from the turbo downpipe. Some guys route it down to open air like the old engine road draft tubes. That's noisier, but has less backpressure restriction of course.

A blow-off valve just dumps to open air since it is venting air.

I would think with a manual transmission, you would really need a blow-off valve. This will allow the compressed air an escape route when the throttle blades close between shifts. This is better than the air rushing back and hitting the compressor blades. You can either vent the blow-off valve to atmosphere, or plumb it back to the intake tract of the turbo (the compressor, not the turbine side,) which would give the turbo a slight help to recover between shifts. You can get a cheap and very effective BOV from 90-94 Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo cars. They are usually good for around 20-25 psi.

Thats a good point about the throttle blade and shifting. We will look into a blow off valve. The kits didn't have one but must have worked with damage to the turbo, but I can see how it would help.

Joe

A Compressor By-pass Valve, as was mentioned, is very common on today's turbo cars.

It doesn't by-pass the compressor, it by-passes the air as was said in Post #42 vs having the closure of the throttle drive the Turbo into surge when the mass flow stacks up on the closed blade.

Tom Vaught

Turbo Vacuum control : For standard dist. I used the 68 Firebird dual outlet control.believe it was a delco 1115411.Also 1115367 By digging deep in the parts book ,I found a dual port HEI control used on some Caddys about 1980-81.delco P/N 1973595

For those who don't know, Ken Crocie is the ultimate encyclopedia of knowledge of about all parts Pontiac!

I'm privileged to have had him as General Manager of H-O Racing Specialties, Inc. and then later when he was the owner of same.

From Tial's website:

Plumbing wastegates with manual boost controller to set boost:
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w..._wginstall.pdf

Plumbing Blowoff valves:
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w...bovinstall.pdf

Should give you some more ideas.

This is how my AWD Talon is setup, except I run a pair of wastegates instead of one.

THANK YOU!!! I think that helps me a bunch. I used to have easy access to a bunch of old Motors Parts and Labor books...a gold mine for finding part numbers. But the old man that had them passed on and his family threw them away before they sold his shop!

I often found myself being the go to guy for hard to find or oddball parts...even when I was in the Air Force. Seems I have a knack for finding them one way or another.

Think I know someone not far from me who just may have one of those(more maybe?) cannisters now that I have some numbers...

Thanks again. I'll let you know what I turn up.

If you find a extra 2 port 68 vac. control, let me or Ken Crocie (Dad) know. This will help our latest project. Pure simplicity.

Not sure if I understood a previous post. Instaling a BOV will keep the turbo speed in check, not increase it. If air is moving the turbo is doing "work." With no BOV the turbo can overspeed when airflow stops, like throttle shut. Put your hand over a running shop vac inlet and listen to the motor speed up. Correct me if I'm wrong here.