Tips for restoring 1970 Pontiac LeMans (Ground UP)
 

Hi I'm new to car restoration and I'm looking for beginning tips on where to start! I'm restoring the car from the ground up. Currently I'm taking the entire car apart as much as I can and going to sand down the chassis get it painted and put it all back together. Where should I start when I want to start putting it all back together? From the suspension, to swaybar, and gas tank what should I focus on first?

My advice would be.....don't do it.

Or at least, not yet. Let's talk this through:

a) What is your desire for this car?
Are you going to build a show car/trailer queen? Or do you intend to drive and enjoy it?

Your answer to those questions will dictate if you want to get into that level of detail on the chassis and underside.

b) How much do you plan to spend (moneywise)?
Double it.

c) How much do you plan to spend (timewise)?
Triple it. Craigslist and ebay are chock full of "projects" where the enthusiast lost interest. Little kids grow up and get involved in sports, jobs expand, life happens and projects expand to fill the time available for their completion. I would plan on it taking several years. Are you the kind of person who's dogged determination allows you to see things through to completion, even when it's like crawling through 10 miles of broken glass? Or are you characterized by starting things and then not finishing them?

d) Do you have a place to do this work (preferably a heated three car garage)?
Because you're going to need 1 bay for the body, one bay for the chassis and one bay for all the stuff you take off.

e) Are you doing this to make money when you sell it?
You won't. You'll get about 1/2 of your investment back in this market.

f) What kind of shape is the car in now?
They are only original once. If it's in decent shape (presentable) already and driveable (or driveable with a few enhancements) then you may just want to rub on it, enhancing it a little as you go.

g) Do you have an understanding wife and family?
How's your health (and age)? How's the job outlook over the next few years?

h) Is this the right car?
If the car is really bad, from a rust standpoint, you may be farther ahead to spend a bit more and have a better starting point. Plus - are you ok with it being a Lemans? There are some that might think this is a lot of effort that might be better spent (more payback) if you were re-doing a GTO.

You'll need to consider all this.

These are just a few questions that come to mind that need to be answered before you turn the first bolt. I've had the body off my car and I hope to never have it that torn down again.



After you've thought about these then the group (including me) might have some excellent suggestions on how to attack a project of this magnitude.

K

X2 on Keith's post.
You could find a recently completed frame off car done right for less money than you would spend doing yours. Especially if your just looking for a Lemans/Tempest and not a true GTO.

Made me think of this thread:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ighlight=faint

K

In today's market you can buy a car and get the restoration free if it was done within the last 5 years. Look at auctions at Kissimmee and eBay. Great time to buy, awful time to sell. Not super time to take on a big resto project unless the car is a keeper and or is super rare.

I would restore some components separate from the car. You can pick up some front control arms and all the steering components, rebuild, detail, plate and paint them. You'll get a good feel on whats involved, and your car will still be movable/drivable.

Its very easy to take it all apart and think your making progress, its getting it back together thats has all the issues. Also make up a spreadsheet lists all the parts and the costs of rebuilding and replacing those parts.

Hummmmmmm!
 

OMG, I can relate with what you wish to attempt. In 2004 I bought a freshly restored 70 Lemans Sport for $3500.

The only thing that was wrong with it was the car-port tent it was under fell on the car in a wind storm. Basically, it had three scratches in the paint, hood, door and trunk. Remember the car was a recent resto! I used the car as is for 6 months and decided to fore fill my longtime dream of having a car most would consider show and go!
Yes, I blasted it apart! Call it a ground up, frame off, rotisserie, or whatever. I call it lost enjoyment. Sure, I gained incremental enjoyment during the project but looking back on my decision I definitely wish I enjoy the car longer before blasting apart!
I say enjoy it for a while (1-2 years) then if you must do your ground up, plan the project well. Bag and tag EVERYTHING!

Ps, I'm still working on that dream of mine! :eek:

thread block
 

Keith, youre killing us! Mads, dont listen to him, he's trying to use logic. Fills me with self doubt til I take a ride to get a 12 pack, hear the horns beep and see the people cluster around it when I come walking out of the liquor store.

Still I ask what kind of moron would restore a T37 or a lemans if you could get a real A body? Let alone in a rust prone climate in a rust prone exterior design...A labor of love I guess... plus there arent many morons like me left since for the longest time all the non GTO's were cut up for parts. In the mid 80's I had a 72 lemans driver (for 130K miles on the horror show highways of NJ)..car didnt owe me a dime, bench seat 350 2 bbl with air, and I was hooked. Same car same drive train same black interior T37 came my way for 350 bucks in 91. Dragged that car from place to place as I moved, slowly accumulated parts I needed that I couldnt already peel off the 72. I guess if you can do it as an in between hobby instead of an all or nothing gig it doesnt hurt as much. Even with only the 350, there's something about that ride. Even with the high perf & handling of the new cars, there's something about that ride. Obviously did it for myself to enjoy. I have to assume that noone in their right mind would do a T37 trailer queen - not when the GTO endura nose is so awesome. So thats a big question - you doing it for you to enjoy or for the clipboard points... Just keep in mind that the tempest, lemans and T37's might be the least desireable right now, but how many will still be around in the future if everyone chops them for goats?

Good advice Keith. Mads, if you are taking the car apart take lots of pictures of the parts you take off. You will need them for reference when you put it back together.

This is to answer some questions and get somethings cleared up!!

a) What is your desire for this car?

What I want the car for is to drive around and keep as my baby.. mainly as leisure.

b) How much do you plan to spend (moneywise)?
I have plenty of money to drop on the car! About $1500 for the next 12 months.

c) How much do you plan to spend (timewise)?
I have plenty of time to attend to the vehicle. Right now I'm doing college and work study part-time so I will have about 6 hours a day to dedicate to the project. I dont plan on doing the paint myself but everything else is on my hands.

d) Do you have a place to do this work (preferably a heated three car garage)?
I don't have a bay or a garage but I got a HUGE YARD for fill and separate everything.

e) Are you doing this to make money when you sell it?
This car will never be sold or at least in my life-time!!

f) What kind of shape is the car in now?
The car is in a decent shape but looking at it you will notice it has lots of work. Its been in my family for years and its been sitting in one place for about 10 years now.

g) Do you have an understanding wife and family?
I have no wife and my family is helping me with the project.

h) Is this the right car?
This is the right car and I don't care about a NAME nor the price!!

Okay... so far the fist bolt has been twisted and the second and the third. So far I pulled apart the doors, complete interior, right and left fenders, front bumper, and trunk.

I have someone thats going to paint the car for me but my plan is to pull everything apart and strip the car down as much as possible. I want to remove the frame, sand blast the chassis and paint it. I will take all parts for them to be painted and worked on piece by piece. The car has rust all over the place but its not REALLY BAD.. small places are tore up.

If any, what special considerations should I look out for?
Where is the first or best place to start when I get the car apart?
The only reusable parts are the entire frame and rear bumper.... I want to re-due just about everything and use all OEM parts if possible.
Nothing performance or fancy will go into the car... yet!!! I want to keep it basic until I get it up and drive-able.. then start adding performance and fancy things!

I'm hoping you missed a "0" on your yearly funds ....

what you are talking about with a frame off restoration, and farming out some of the stuff, you are looking at 35,000 on up to complete it ...

Post some photos ....

I would take the 1500 and get it running and safe to drive first .... then enjoy it for a couple of years and see where life takes you ... if you rip it apart it will be worth less if 5 years from now your family decides to sell it.

So your saying it will be more than $18000 to restore the car?? What I meant is $1500 a month to spend on the car and like I said, I'm keeping the car for life!!! This car belonged to a deceased uncle of my family and it will remain in my family or in my care until I'm dead!!

What I mean is "I want to take the frame/body off the chassis and get it all painted and redone.... like the title says "GROUND UP"

Mads - PM sent, Franks Pontiac just did a 70 and has some sheet metal. PY has a good selection you should familiarize yourself with too. If you are thrifty and patient - and dont mind stripping a junker or 3, you can do that budget but freight for parts has to be considered (just ask Loffen).

Give us a little info: engine CI, auto or manual, bench or buckets, a/c, etc. what do you have from factory? What are ext / int colors?

Depending on how much you farm out and how much you want to do yourself $18000 is a pretty safe figure. Nothing wrong with doing what you want but myself I would get it running first as stated above and see what condition the engine and drivetrain is in. 68WarDog and I went and looked at a 70 GTO a couple of weeks back that would require a full frame off to get it right. I quoted the owner no less than 40grand and maybe up to 50grand to get it back to showroom condition. He wasn't expecting it to be that high but it would take no less than three years to do the car and that included the entire rear section at the trunk lip and bumper mounting area needing to be replaced along with an entire trunk floor and would require a donor car, and with the car sitting on the ground I couldn't see exactly what kind of shape the frame was in, it may be needing to be replaced also. I have done mine (71GTO in my sig) in my back yard and wish I would've had a garage to do it in. Bad weather has played a toll on the bodywork from it being exposed to the elements, going to need to be done again in the next couple of years, hopefully I'll have the money and be able physically to do the work myself. But my GTO has been in my possesion since 1986 and will go to my daughter (and hopefully my Grandson) when I get to the point I can't push a clutch anymore. Alot goes into doing an occasional driver if you plan on showing it. Alot to think about. My .02

I would say go for it. If the car means that much to you. Some cases of trying to do a resto on your own can be very overwhelming on you. I have seen guys take a complete running car apart to do a resto and decided not to finish but sell it.. I would say if you are going to do it then try to get most body work or metal work done on your own if you know how too. It helps to save money. Make a list of what you would need done or price a lot of places for certain parts depending on where you decide on starting on the car.Take a lot of pictures,bag and tag everything. I myself am working on my lemans and doing a on frame restoration but it can be overwhelming because its a lot to deal with. Its a lot of work and some parts are harder to get unless you find them on here lol.It all depends on your love and passion for these cars. I too will never sell this car.BTw Post some pics so we can see and get an idea of what your working with.

Before you get too far into it, take photos of everything.
Tag, bag and sort everything...I mean every screw, nut and bolt. It will probably be years before you start putting the thing back together and you WILL forget a lot of it.
When you have taken a car completely apart, it really is amazing how something so complex could have been mass produced so efficiently.

mct37

Its hard to say because the engine was replaced so many times and before my time my uncle actually changed the interior. The engine was a 450 my uncle and step-dad put in then my step-dad removed it and replaced it with a 350 (I think the original engine). We have 3 engines laying around our yard that can be used but I don't know were to begin. The was drive able at one point in the past because I remember driving it myself but I dont know what happened because I took off to the Army. The interior was originally bucket seats with a console and he changed it to a bench seat. Also I believe the steering column was pulled out and changed because everything I see has the gear selector located in the center on the console but the car has it on the steering column.

Photos will follow tomorrow and I hope I get some good feed back.. Lol!!

Unusual to go from console to tree and from buckets to bench, normally the other way around.

Before you get too dirty, you should get some of the details about the factory setup from your VIN. Check either Fisher Body Manual or Pontiac Service Manual for details on what the VIN number represents. That will also enable you to see the production numbers for your particular setup. If you dont have any manuals, you can also search this 70-72 forum or the web for info on what the VIN numbers mean. You might want to get manuals if you dont have them ($30 - $40 on cd, you can print what you need or make binders).

greg's advice to take pics of everything is really critical and so is "70 Lemans" direction to bag and tag everything. As obvious as it might seem to go together at the time, life happens, a week or a month goes by and you'll kick yourself for not taking that extra time for pics and part and hardware identification. plus having the pics of before and after will be very gratifying.

You will have trouble posting pics due to file size. We all do. Everyone seems to have a different way to compact the file too. One way I learned from this forum is to upload pics to your hard drive, open the file in MS Paint, select "Image" (from toolbar), then select "Stretch / Skew" and reduce the % in the horizontal and vertical boxes (use same number for both) to say 60%, save to a different filename, reopen the file and check the file size. Actually takes longer to explain than to actually do this, its pretty straightforward.

Or just use www.photobucket.com pretty easy and works just fine :)

And as most her say, label box and take a lot of pictures.
Also try to think ahead, my advice is that you first strip the body you do not need to take apart every single item an example is the dash, just take it out as a complete unit.

When you are done lift it from the frame and ship it to the paint/body shop, then take out the engine /transmission and send it to the shop, then goes the suspension and rear axle.

Now you can start with the frame, in my mind this is the first part of the car that should be restored if you take a ground up restauration, then suspension and so on.

Both the paintshop and engine shop will take time, try to plan ahead and order part early, you will get an idea of what you need when you start to take the car apart, take notes of everything that does not work or need repairs as you go.

Here's something you should keep in mind also-
Restoring a car is like hiking the Grand Canyon. Walking down to the bottom is slightly challenging and very rewarding. Coming back out will nearly kill you.
Tearing a car apart is like walking into the Grand Canyon. Putting it back together is MUCH more difficult and time consuming for reasons you will soon understand.

I use photobucket. Pics are never too large and I do nothing. Perhaps their software autosizes it for insertion to bulletin boards. From looking at Mad's posts, I think he's one of our younger set...I'm sure he'll have no problem figuring it out.

Pictures pictures pictures! I've got over 20GB and 12,000 photos of all the cars I've brought back from the dead. It's great for reference and helping put things back together (also for helping others in the same spot). And it feels even better having a little restoration journal of your progress when you're done.

Personally I don't like taking entire cars apart, I do things pieces at a time just because I don't have the room nor the stable living situation to be able to do that.

I had it all planned out in my head but I think I went wrong when I took things apart without noting where they go back. I plan on getting the bolt/screw sets to replace the rusted/old bolts and screws. If you consider 25 young then yes I am... but this is a dream project that's been waiting to be done. Okay photos can be found at the link below. I thank Loffen for the idea! Comments and suggestions are encouraged on the car condition and what should be done (Besides label, tag, and take pictures of everything) I got that point! Trial and Error I expect because this is my first build/restore.

Also since the car has been sitting around it collected a lot of dust so what you seen in most pictures may not be rust but dust :)

What would y'all recommend I do to get all the dust and dirt off the car? I was going to pressure wash it but I'm afraid of adding more rust to the car. Would it be okay to do so or should I air blast it all? Also what parts of the car should or can be sandblasted?

Thanks for everyone's comments and feedback.

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/us...ntiac%20LeMans

When it comes to cleaning it so will you clean every part anyways, just get some of the dust of the body and when you get the body of the frame you pressure wash the frame and engine.

I do not sand blast anything with a grease fitting or a bearing in it except when I am going to change the bearings.
Also stay away from all large metal panels like the hood and quarter panels, sand blasting will strech the metal (Soda blasting is another story)

By the way, did you take a look at my tread ? If not please do, it took two weeks to take it apart and 8 months to put it back together with almost all the up and downs..
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=679791

From the pics I can tell you it's not a Pontiac engine in your car. It's had an Oldsmobile engine put in it at some point. If you have a Pontiac engine available you might want to go with that while you have it apart. Front fenders aren't too bad but will need some patch panels and the quarter panels are fixable.

The body doesn't look too terribly bad actually....except in the dash area. Maybe I'm not seeing it right or I missed it somewhere if it was mentioned but it looks as if someone actually cut the metal dash out of the car? That will be problematic but nothing that can't be overcome. Replacing all the underdash stuff, assuming you didn't pull it all out yourself, will be like trying to put a puzzle together without a picture of what the completed subject is. It can be done but you will need a lot of references there. That's where these forums will be a ton of help.

It does have an Oldsmobile engine. From the blue color, I'd guess it came out of a 2nd Gen Trans Am.

I'm with Ben. I like to keep as much of the original car in place as practical and only replace what's no longer usable. You'll find as you go along that reproduction parts sometime leave a lot to be desired when compared to NOS factory equipment or properly restored original parts from the car.

The thermostat housing is angled wrong to be from an F-body. Also the cruise control diaphragm is '73-77 Olds only vintage and won't fit on an F-body with a shaker setup, same with the alternator brackets (what ones are left). Also has A.I.R. tubes. I'd speculate it came out of a '75-78 Olds something or other. Easy enough to look up the codes and figure it out though.

guys you are all correct but for me I did my G-Body 70 GP non orig 4 speed .Had it done in about 2.5 years /Did a bunch of bartering and selling off spare stuff and never looked back.Ive had the car for 35 years and my son will get it when Im gone.Now Im stupid enough to a take on a basket case 65 GS post 4 Speed .I just enjoy doing it...It is so much easier to put together when everything is clean and new.My advice would be buy a donor car or ever two maybe and be willing to spend alot of time selling parts .I bought a 69 SJ for 1300 and sold the interior and shell for 1800 .Still have the 428 and the tranny.I have to say all the things mentioned are very very true! you have to have a reason to want to do THIS car .I saw a 65 Buick GS 4 speed go for 12500 on mecum right after I started my 65 project and I had 8 K in 2 pieces of crap.You can buy a nice car for 25 .Thats the minium in material cost you will net in a restore
Couple links
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=537814
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1758694...69009156/show/

My opinion is to be realistic and put it all back together, cleaning and painting as you go doing everything yourself if you have the ability. Paint it in your driveway or garage with cheapest materials available yourself. Put a Pontiac motor back in it if ya have one. Get it in running and driving condition and enjoy it as a "driver". Unless you are independantly wealthy and have ALOT of time, this is the way to go for a common Lemans. Should only cost maybe a grand if you are resourceful and you'l be enjoying it in a couple months. This is what I do with this class of car in simlilar condition. Then I drive em for a year or two and sell them or trade em up for another car. Good luck. What I described is an enjoyable way to experiance the classic car hobby and you don't lose your ass in doing so.

I also did my first restore when I was around 25 years old (67 Firebird). In some ways it was easier- parts were still available in local junkyards, etc. But in some ways it was harder- no internet forums for advice and the supply of restoration parts was much more limited. But, and this is big- I also had already graduated from college, had a good-paying job, and had my own house with a real double garage.

If I remember I put about $15K over a period of a few years into that Firebird to get it really nice, doing most everything myself including bodywork/paint and the engine build, but that was 25 years ago.

Fast forward to now. I just recently finished my 69 Lemans vert. Well, never really finished but now more in tinkering and maintenance mode. This one cost me over $40K to do though I did farm out the engine build, and exterior paint and bodywork to others which added some to the cost. I kept a running total which is attached just so you can see how it quickly it can add up. Keep in mind that I started with a pretty functional driver in much better shape than the car you are working on.

As for getting your money out of it, forget that. I look at restoring a car as a hobby, and all good hobbies are expensive. If the "restoration adventure" is worth it to you, and the car is what you want and you have the cash needed then go for it. But if you just want to own a classic car then go buy one because its a whole lot less expensive than doing one yourself.

As for how to do it you are already getting some good advice here. I prefer to do mine in phases instead of tearing the whole car apart and rebuilding it all at once. Less intimidating, helps spread the cost, and I get to drive in-between phases. Lots and lots of pictures, tag and bag parts, keep a running notebook with sketches and notes. Use original parts wherever possible. Sounds like you got a bit ahead of yourself with the tear-down but suggest that you stop now and organize everything the best you can before doing anything else.

If it were me I would concentrate on cleaning it all up and reassembling, fixing mechanical/electrical systems as I went along to make it road worthy. Forget about cosmetic details for now. Just getting to this point will take a bunch of time and money. Then drive it for a while and plan next steps.

As for the engine there are plenty of us that have perfectly good running Pontiac 350's without a home. You should be able to find one very cheap or even free with a little hunting around. If you want to go fast I would make a high-perf Pontiac engine swap part of a later phase. Remember that building for hi-horses involves more than just the engine. The trans, rear end, suspension, cooling system, etc. all need to be up to the task which adds to the cost and complexity.

That Lemans looks to be a decent car, to restore. My GT-37 appears to have more rust issues than this car. I too plan on restoring it one day. Just gathering all parts that I need, while keeping it a driver. Most importantly having fun with it. While the parts are being collected. I would also say pictures, labeled boxes, bags etc will help in the restoration process.Years ago my son and I redone his Camaro , we labeled items, took lots of pictures. That really helped us to put it back together years later.

There is a lot of good advice here, don't think that guys are being negative, it is just experience talking. My car had very little rust, I did not pull it off of the frame. The only thing that I had trouble with was to run the fuel line over the rear axle.

My best advice for you is to figure out what you want. I spent a bunch of extra money by putting factory rally gages, body side moldings, and vinyl top on the car. If you want to enjoy the car, but don't need it to be factory restored, then figure out what you want. Stock suspension, disc brakes, OD trans, aftermarket parts? Rebuild one of the engines you have, or just find something to plug in?

The best thing that I did with my car was to get the body painted, then have it brought back to my garage to assemble without the front clip installed. This made it very easy to install the drivetrain, front suspension, and wiring. No worries about scratching up the fenders by leaning over them to do everything.

If you know what color you want the car to be, then get the jambs and inside of the doors and trunk painted. Get the rough bodywork done on the car, then get it assembled and running. You have a bunch of mechanical work to be done, and cars go back together much harder than they come apart.

Get a plan, take pictures, and try not to get discouraged. Some of my best decisions on the car was learning when to walk away when I got frustrated, and then try again 2 days later.

Have fun,
Mike

I would agree that your car was in good shape, when you started. I have the bench seat in my car ! :D

I don't want you guys to think I am a curmudgeonly old guy (...I am....I just don't want you to think that) but I've been there.

My latest (re)aquisition was my old '87 Chevy pickup. I was able to totally restore it cosmetically, in 5 months, for about $3500 - in my driveway - while I was using it as my daily driver.

Admittedly, I had an advantage in that I had built this one (and about 900,000 just like it) prior to pulling it apart. Additionally, a pickup is kinda cool because you can do a "half frame off" by pulling just the box, but without pulling the cab.

Here's a link that documented it as it progressed, which some of you might find interesting. There may be a trick or two in there that you find handy.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926

K