Buyer Beware P Y Hurst Rims
 

Recently purchased a set of Hurst aftermarket rims from Performance Years.

I called the tech department before ordering & specificly asked if there will be any surprise's with these rims & I was assured no surprise's, it is as described.

Yes I know they are not original.

Yes I know there will be more than likely some imperfections.

Yes I know they are not correct.

Wow was I ever dissappointed & felt VERY mislead when I recieved them.

Who would of ever guessed, my as described nere perfect replica of Hurst rims with CRAGER cast right into the rim!!!

Just is not right that a company such as the one that puts on this FINE forume has to deal there customers in this fashion.

Dont mean to be negitive, just trying to save somebody else the trouble.

You're not kidding. I would be disappointed also. I would consider that "bait and switch". If it happened to me, I would no longer do business with the vendor.

was there a pic of the rim for you to see before you bought them?

Sure looks alot like Cragar Eliminators to me, but give PY a chance to explain/make it right.
http://www.cragarwheel.com/products1...torRWDPolished

The original Hurst wheels had trim rings. Did they supply rings that would cover the Cragar logo on the rim? With trim rings & Hurst centers they're probably a good wheel that simulates the Hurst look.

Did you even contact PY after you got the wheels AND before you posted? Bet not. PY does operate that way and I'm sure will take care of the problem if one exists.

Py is a great company and do their best to make customers happy no matter what the situation is.

1969GTO

Yes there was a piture & convently the stamped CRAGER was turned so it could not be seen. This was in the current Performance Years catalog which I believe is the same as the current online version.

If interested go to page 154 of the catalog & let me know if you can see it

http://performanceyears.com/catalog/gtocat.pdf

Ponchjoe

Yes I believe the Crager box said Eliminator on it. There's really nothing for them to explain, its misleading on purpose or maybe lack of information is a better term.

I understand there not going to say these are Crager Eliminator's or every body would just go there & buy them, however they could say "the manufacturers name is stamped on your Hurst replica rim & you can see it from apx 20 feet away.

Bob V

No did not contact PY before I posted, was not aware I was supposed to.

Simply trying to provide information for the next person looking at purchase those rims.

i gotta say i have the FB catalog and it says aftermarket look a like-ebay for originals un restored -insane $$ or Mr joe parts -reproduction 2 to 3 grand ouch

The key word in the description of this product is 'aftermarket'. I've seen this product on a car before, and no I don't like it either. But, if you don't want to spend over double the money to get the 'reproductions' which are a lot closer to the originals but still not dead on, OR if you want an option in sizes; this is your only option.

Of course we don't know who you spoke with or exactly what they told you. Are you pissed because they specifically didn't tell you they were made by Cragar?

Right above the AFTERMARKET Hurst wheels you bought for 900.00 are REPRODUCTION Hurst wheels for 2100.00. Hello? I guess the choice is yours, deal with the Cragar logo or spend an additional 1200.00.

I don't think it's misleading at all. They are clearly labeled AFTERMARKET.

So you thought the salesperson on the phone was lying to you when you asked if YOU would be disapointed in the wheels? Really?

It's really simple, just return your 900.00 wheels and spend an additional 1200.00 for the reproductions.

Those don't even look anything like Hurst wheels. More like Crager's 'version' of a Hurst wheel.

Reads more like a "I'll stick it to you!" post to me.

I bought $1,000 of parts from them & picked them up on a Saturday right as they were closing a few months ago, and somewhere in the confusion ended up with a 69 rear bumper rather than the 68 I wanted - one 3 minute call was all it took to get the new one sent out to me and I can return the 69 "ANY TIME I WANT" for a full refund.

Chris and the staff at PY will bend over backwards to resolve any situations and make the customer happy and thats probably the reason PY and Pypes have been so successful! This forum is a testament to that! I agree with Paul, deal with it or send them back and pay for the reproductions.

For an example: I ordered some AC dash vents for my 70 GTO. Everyone knows where they probably came from and the thin chrome around the edges of the vent got real narrow on one side, a little more than I could tolerate. Instead of posting my complaints here about it. One simple phone call and they went thru their stock and picked the best one they could find and sent it to me. Then told me if it wasn't to my likings that they would either credit me for the vent or contact their supplier and see what could be done. The next one sent was fine.
I would suggest calling them first next time before posting. I don't think you'll get much sympathy from the folks around here that have dealt with them before.

They really look good in the catalogue, too bad the cast in Craiger logo was placed out of view.

Jerry H

No I,m not pissed they didnt tell me they were Cragers, I fully understand they do not or could not manufacture all the great products they sell. I have no problem with Crager there a great company. BTW I never said I was pissed just dissapointed.

Paulatfast

"So you thought the salesperson on the phone was lying to you when you asked if YOU would be disapointed in the wheels?"

LOL I never said anybody was lying?
Also I never asked if I would be disappointed, I asked if there would be any SURPRISES.
Really, that is what I said reread the post.

The Boss

"Reads more like a "I'll stick it to you!" post to me."

WOW where did that come from? I keep rereading what I posted & I remain baffled. I searched all over this forume for any info on those rims before I bought them & I could not find a single post. I really truly THOUGHT I would save someone else the problem or dissapointment on those rims thats all. I sure would of loved to read the post I made before hand.


Guys

I just felt I should of been told thats all, after all thats why I called the tech department, at the time I felt mislead, I,m sure the salesperson must not of known.

I had NO PROBLEM spending the $2,100.00 on the others, however I am installing 4 wheel disk brakes on the car with larger sway bars & the option of going with a larger wheel seemed like a great option, because the car will be driven. Along with the rims, I purchased from PY the 4 wheel disk kit & all SS brake lines and 4 Redline tires from another vendor.

In all 10 packages, it would require sending all that back, I,m not going to do that. I will live with it. Really truly just thought others would of liked to know. I should of called PY & never posted a thing but then again I thought thats what forumes where for sharing information.

Oh & BTW I have loads of parts to purchase yet for this resto & more than likly most of them will be bought from PY.

NUF-SED

Wow. I'm really sorry you feel you got duped. I can certainly understand your dissappointment if you were expecting to get real reproduction Hurst wheels. Or if you paid the $2000 price for reproduction Hurst wheels and then got these wheels. But I hope you can see that our intent wasnt' to decieve you. If that were the case, every set of these wheels we send out would come back because as you said 'the CRAGAR logo is cast right on the rim! Why would we want to ship our wheel set after wheel set only to have customers see the CRAGAR logo and then return them? We made a special effort to create a unique adapter for the wheels that allows the original hurst cap to mount on these wheels because we thought these wheels have that classic Hurst look at a very reasonable price. That makes the wheel package a PY kit, not a CRAGAR kit. There is a super clear picture of the wheels and caps for you to decide how close they resemble the Hurst wheel. We could have modified the wheels and removed the logo but we did not for the very reason of what you are accusing us of. We didn't want to deceive the customer. We really didn't think the CRAGAR logo should be a negative.

Here's why we don't 'advertise' that they are CRAGAR wheels.

From a marketing standpoint, Aftermarket wheels are notoriously 'shopped'. Everyone that buys a set of aftermarket wheels will simply search for the best price and buy from that source. We lose the sale but more importantly, you get a set of wheels that you CAN'T install the Hurst caps on. So by offering these wheels as a complete $900 package, we feel perfectly comfortable promoting them as a PY product, not a CRAGAR product and we end up helping the customer avoid a lot of frustration.


Anyway, we're going to listen to the phone conversation you had with one of our staff and if they in any way were deceptive, we'll do a call tag and have the wheels picked up and a full refund will be issued. Even if the staff was not deceptive, as always, anything purchased from PY is returnable for a refund.

I'm going to close this topic for now and then open it up after we review our phone records. Then I'll open it up to WTABI to reply. It really would not be productive to have everyone reading comment on this specific situation. If someone wants to start a 'deception in the marketplace' type topic, that's fine.

Jeff, I listened in detail to your conversation with our staff member and he was extremely detailed (almost to a fault) with trying to explain the difference between the $2100 Hurst wheels and our $850 wheels. I think the phone conversation was close to 20 minutes. He spent a lot of time reviewing wheel and tire sizes. He spent time explaining the differences between finishes. At no point in the conversation was there any even hint of deception and at no point in the conversation did you say anything about 'are there any surprises' to look out for. He was very clear to tell you that the wheels were 'aftermarket' and the advantages and disadvantages. I'm sorry to say that you really should just chalk this one up to a preconceived idea of your product expectations. Sometimes you get a picture in your mind of how you expect something to be and everything you hear after that is blah, blah blah etc. ;) I do it all the time.

If you want me to send you a copy of the conversation, just pm me with your e-mail but I don't really see the need. You seem like a very reasonable guy when listening to that phone conversation. If you still want to return the wheel kit and are concerned about return shipping costs, have a look at our show schedule and we could potentially make arrangements to take the wheels back at a show. However, I'd really consider using the wheels for that 1964 GTO. I think based on your aftermarket brake modifications and the Hurst look you were going for, you already have made a very nice looking and excellent performance decision.

Chris are those rims clear coated or bare aluminum? If they are bare it would be easy to weld up that name, grind it down and polish it out... Of course, you guys couldn't do it for liability/warranty reasons, but any decent metal guy should be able to handle that reasonably if it was that big a deal to someone...

I recently installed the Cragar Eliminator 500 on my 67 and think they look great on square body Goats. A word to anyone looking at the wheel, the 15X8 doesn't fit, the offset is wrong. Go with the 15X7 all around. I'll keep my thoughts on the Hurst center to myself I guess.

As an outside observer, it's always good protocol to give a vendor every opportunity to rectify a problem before any other action is taken, particularly public posting. It's common courtesy. Negative comments, once posted, can be damaging. "Less said, less mended." I always give anyone an opportunity to hash things out and clarify an issue, and I hope that others would treat me in the same manner. We're all in this hobby together.

In general I agree with you. In this case anyone reading through this thread will see the level of committment and involvment from Chris and should be impressed! :)

....and we also know that a simple phone call would have avoided the whole thing.

I apologize for slamming the OP but we have all been at that point in a car or project where expectations & reality either meet or collide. I honestly have no patience for someone who's first instinct is to **** all over a vendor or product when that vendor is more than willing to bend over backwards for their customer.

The solution here was just a phone call away.

Well after looking at the sales ad on pg. 154, I have to agree with the OP's expectations,..the ad states: "the aftermarket Hurst wheels below are an excellent Hi-tech replacement for original Hurst wheels",..then you see a pic of the wheel turned in such a way when photographed that you can't see the "crager" name,..no where in the ad does it say that the wheel is a "crager"!,..(if "crager" had been embossed on the wheel on the backside,who would care)..it is a nice looking repo though and this problem,I"m sure,would/could have been dealt with by other means as already stated.

Quote from original post --
"I called the tech department before ordering & specificly asked if there will be any surprise's with these rims & I was assured no surprise's, it is as described."

I would be pissed too ! Should be stated in bold letters in the ad "Crager"

So... you guys think PY offers two sets of Hurst wheels, one set for 2100.00 that all of the other vendors sell for the same price, another set for 850.00 that only they are offring as a LOW COST alternative, and they both should be 100% correct? Really?

IMO, The reprpoduction Hurst wheels are garbage. In 2007 at the GTOAA Convention in Columbus, John Sawruk went so far as to instruct us to fail the cars equipped with them in tech. The casting is inconsistant, centers have broken out, the lug holes are inconsistant,etc. These wheels are reproduced by a company in Chicago, all the vendors sell the same rims. PY is the only vendor who cared enough to come up with a decent lug nut to try and hold these rims on a car propperly. The other vendors sell these with standard acorn style lugnuts. We machine the lug holes on the reproduction rims and cut down long, thick, aftermarket, truck style lug nuts with a propper shank to fit the new holes we machine into the rims... Now Chris has come up with a way to market a SAFE and ECONOMICAL alternative to these high cost low quality reproductions...

Thanks Chris, I get it.

I wouldn't mind Cragar as much as I would Crager.

Crager,Cragar,who cares!!?,..maybe they should have "Hearse" on them if they're that bad a wheel..Looks like Summit sells the same wheel for $136.08 each.

I hate being the internet police...

I NEVER SAID THE WHEELS IN QUESTION HERE ARE BAD. Just the opposite in fact. The wheels by Cragar that PY is selling are high quality pieces. It is the 2100.00 rims that suck.
And the wheels from summit don't come with the Hurst caps and adapters...

But Ossifer, I wasn't reading, I swear!

I've looked at the wheels in question and read the part info. Nowhere does it mention Cragar in the info, nor does Cragar show in the photo of the wheel. What the ad does say is.. "The aftermarket Hurst wheels below are an excellent Hi-tech replacement for original Hurst wheels."Aftermarket Hurst wheels is kind of misleading in itself. Tell the whole story. Show it all and tell it all to make things clearer on what you're selling in a catalog.

And from what I read, price and caps had nothing to do with the problem.

You didn't read my post. I explained exactly why we did NOT mention the name 'Cragar' in the description.

The only thing I see is the Crager is casted on the outside of the wheel. Most wheels the casting is on the inside and on the outside of the wheel you have a centercap with a company logo or name.

You didn't read my post either. He never did say those things. He thought he asked these questions but he didn't.

So then do you also think that every generic and private label product on the market should divulge the mfg source of their product? Wouldn't that defeat the intent? ie: Kirkland (Costco's brand) should clearly state who makes their product for them? Sears should say who makes their Die Hard batteries?

Wow long one --Kris was trying to do a good turn the cragars do look like hurst but of course much more afforible and with a hurst center cap cool look no good deed goes unpunished-
anyway seems that the best thing to do is just return em-start over-thats the great thing about buying from an upstanding vendor

It's totally OK that these posts are being made. That's what this forum area is for.

I find it very interesting to see the different perspectives readers have on our marketing efforts. Many times we adjust after reading the comments. Its all good. :)

This thing as taken on a life of it's own. I have been following it a bit and have read all the posts and commented once on them. The ONLY thing that I would have changed was the photo in the cataloge. I would have either shown the wheel manufacturers name that's cast into the wheel in the photo, or I would have said "manufacturers name cast into the rim" or something to that effect. The text is clear otherwise and PY has gone above and beyond the call of duty to try to accomodate the customer. The wheel do look good!

i try not to stick my nose in other peoples dealings and am not going to here, i will say that it really says something about a vendors honesty, that will subject themselves to everyone to see when someone is not happy whether they are right or wrong.

anyway,

now the only reason i am posting is to ask if anyone has a good picture of a car with these cragar wheels on it?

I have looked at both sets through the online catalog. IMO, the Cragars look pretty good. I wouldn't mind a set of those on my Grand Prix. One thing that jumped out at me in the $2100+ Hurst Wheel ad was the tag at the bottom about the wheels being on indefinite back order as of 3/16/05. Is that still true 8 years later?

69 gto

Imo These wheels I have are much closer to the hurst design. Company named Intro made them and the cap decals are custom..I love these wheels...Look at them next to my originals.

These Hurst (style) wheels are really starting to grow on me. That wheel in the second pic looks very nice. What is the name of that one? Vista?

That is a nice looking wheel. A lot of their wheels are really nice. We'll look into a price point and ability to use the original Hurst center cap.

Made by Intro http://www.introwheels.com/ but to Chris's point they are within a $100 or $200 of the Hurst reproductions in the catalog.

Not that Cragar isn't an excellent company from wayyyyy back-
but these wheels having CRAGAR engraved on the exterior is a deal breaker.

Deal breaker as in if going for a Hurst look-a-like and using Hurst Caps on them.
..... for most enthusiasts .
Lots of wheel options today in the $900 range or less.
Fakes are Fakes - but you don't want it spelled out in plain view. lol

Even on the CRAGAR web site , can barely see the markings.
Would be easy to miss it in their picture if you weren't expecting.

i too would be Terribly disappointed when i opened the first box , if i had no idea to expect the bold engraving to be there in a visible location.
No matter where they came from.

Not saying no other wheel does this now , just haven't seen it before.
None of the other look-a-likes do it tho.
Would never have any idea to expect that.
Otherwise they do look good.

If not for the Logo issue - these would be a really big hit.
And would need no apology if the name brand appeared any where else besides where they put it.

The Logo is going to block about 65-75% of potential market from making the purchase of the PY package. *imo*

i understand the marketing protocol about keeping Cragar out of the ad campaign.
And even then , by the time a guy bought new Hurst caps and hardware - then paid himself or someone to make the mods for them to fit - he'd probably be in the same price point as he would if he just ordered them from PY ready to install.

If PY could make a deal with them for exclusive distributorship rights of the same wheels made without the Logo - they would be a Super Hot item .
And it wouldn't matter if you disclosed the manufacturer after that - that disclosure would actually be a benefit - Cragar is a trusted known brand from way back .

Win / Win / Win

Would look even better if the insets of side spokes were painted like the McCoys .

IDK Todd, Jim's Dad's car looks pretty sweet and considering the money saved probably paid for the paint they used on it I'd say it's an excellent choice for those without an extra G to spend and who have already decided they aren't going with the originals.

Wow, if you are right about the percentage, then I really missed the boat on this one. Up close, without the logo, yo can clearly see it is NOT a Hurst wheel. So I fail to see why that small logo would matter although I personally just don't like logos on products in general.

I like the idea of painting or brushing or bead blasting the side spokes

Here's a question.....what if the little logo had said HURST instead of CRAGAR?

That would be much better all the way around. But.. would Hurst approve that seeing they don't make the wheel? If the wheels were really made by Hurst then you would probably would sell more of them.

My thought is Baron VZ pretty much hit the nail on the head. You think you're getting a Hurst, by Hurst, wheel but you ain't. That's like buying a Rembrant painting thinking it's the real deal by him, only to find out it was done by Grandma Moses. Not kosher at all.

Truth in advertising counts big time. It makes or brakes a business.