Got a '61 Ventura
 

I was searching for back seats for '61-65 GM cars and met a guy that had a few for sale..
Got what I needed in that department and noticed quite a few cars in the back yard.. I ended up making a deal on this one...
Seats are missing but it's otherwise pretty complete.. Been in the tall grass only about a year so floors are very solid..
Needs some trunk lip.. Has add-on AC by ThermoKing that still has pressure in the system..
Engine is stuck but I'll be soaking it today.. 4barrel with Automatic Code B1 with matching VIN.
That code doesn't show up for '61..
Anybody know if there's just a misprint in the book or is this a special engine for this car?
In the '60 shop manual the B1 is the 4 barrel Bonneville engine..

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1963-63-Ponti...0QQ~~60_57.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1963-63-Ponti...h2!~~60_57.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1963-63-Ponti...Q2g~~60_57.JPG

I like those 61 Venturas. Looks like a lot of car. Keep us posted on this project !

The Wallace Racing site shows engine code B1 as the base model, single two barrel carb, 283hp engine for 1961:

Year Engine HP Engine code Trans CR Cam Head Code BBL Carb No. Misc
1961 389 283 HP B1 A 10.25 472 538177 1-2 7019070 Block casting # 538181

However, that looks like a four barrel carb air cleaner in your photo. I'll look at Pete McCarthy's book later and see what it says. Someone may have swapped in the four barrel carb and manifold at some point.

The car looks pretty good - there's plenty of rust to fix but it's better than average for a '61. Is that Bristol Blue? It's the second best color for a '61, after red. :) The seller appears to have a couple other 61s there in the weeds, I hope they get saved before they're too far gone.

Yes, Bristol Blue... Definitely a 4 barrel and it looks like it's always been there but who knows? Maybe they added it when they put the AC in.. Has a shroud and clutch fan too... I may be buying the Bonneville that's right next to it as a parts car.. It's rough but there are a lot of decent parts on it..

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...4&d=1367158332

Looks like a lot of work but could be a nice car. My 61 is engine A1 which was domestic 2bbl with Slim Jim A/T. If I was home I would check the 61 manual and see what I find for a B1. And I will look next week. Sometimes the usage for those engine codes changed from year to year so in 61 B1 could easily be a 4 bbl with Slim Jim.

This is curious...while the Wallace Racing site has a B1 code for a base two barrel carb 1961 engine, there isn't a B1 code in either Pete McCarthy's book or the engine production sheet from my PHS documents. They both have an A1 code for the base two barrel carb engine.

According to the engine production sheet from the PHS documents, a 287hp four barrel carb engine in a Ventura would have had a BF code - is it possible that's the stamp on your engine and the 'F' is partially obscured so it looks like a '1'?

A couple other discrepancies between the various sources: The Wallace Racing site lists a 7019070 two barrel carburetor for their B1 code engine, but Pete's book says that was used on A5 and S5 engines which corresponds to a Star Chief base engine or a Ventura engine with factory a/c. Also, the Wallace Racing site lists a 472 cam for their B1 code engine, but Pete's book says that was also used in A5 and S5 engines.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are errors in the records 50 years later, and it probably doesn't make a lot of difference either way.

I did check again today and it is B1 for sure... Didn't have the camera but I'll shoot it later.

Another strange thing is that I have a 1960 engine from a wagon I scrapped and it is S1 (2 barrel w/AT and AC) but that code doesn't appear on the 1960 chart, it only shows up as a 1961 code...

Pulled the plugs and shot PB blaster in each cylinder.. Not budging yet but it's only been a few hours.. Time to take off the valve covers and tap all the valves.. I sure don't want to pull the heads off.. I'd like to make this a driver for a while..

I've wondered about this...was there some guy at the end of the assembly line with a set of stamps and a hammer, putting the numbers on the blocks? If so, it stands to reason he wasn't 100% accurate.

Here's the block code..

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1367190142

Seats are from '64 Grand Prix for now..


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3&d=1367191311
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...2&d=1367191287

Does either the 1656 or the 1789 match with the last digets in the serial? I think one of those two numbers is supposed to match for the original factory engine.

561W1789 is the VIN on the door jamb.. matches the block

I absolutely love the '61 Pontiacs. They are BY FAR my favorite pre-musclecar era Pontiacs. Nice score!

My '60 engine also has S1 code and came out of a '60 with 2 barrel, AT, and AC. I've also wondered about the code since it isn't listed -- not that it really matters since it is now in a '56. Luv the '61 Ventura!

Gotta get one of these now..

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Johnny-Lightn...q7Q~~60_57.JPG

Ditto!

This car may not get totally restored while I own it, but I want to fix up the body and make a fun driver out of it. I've never seen a '61 Ventura driver. The only ones I have ever seen are total wrecks or show cars..

This car needs some sheet metal work in front of the rear wheels and in the rockers.. I guess I'll have to make that stuff since body panels are nearly impossible to get..

Needs the typical trunk pan treatment and a few short runs of trunk lip but pretty dang respectable otherwise..

I like that this car has a "mystery" engine code.

I was checking the NADA guide and there is a premium on the Ventura with "Bonneville 389/303HP engine" so I believe that's what must be in this car..

http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Ca...Hardtop/Values

I'll have to get the PHS documents on this one..

Prittaaaay, prittaaay, prittaaaay cool Mr Ax man ;) Love the styling on the early 60's Ponchos

Thanks Ken.. Hoping to get to your neck soon with one of my clunkers so keep me posted about any events..

B1 eng
 

You should have checked the factory chassis manual.
B1 shows to be a 61-10 H/M (slim jim), 4bbl, 10.25:1 comp engine, with a 425E and 61-10 H.M. camshaft (0), w/spl equip, for a 23-25 series car. Piston fit ..0007-.0013, dist model 1110964 or 1110970, AC 45 spark plugs and heavy duty starter.

Well here's your chance. My club's show is coming up in about a month. Hope to see you there (here)!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=725766

Thanks for the info.. So it's a special equipment order for the Ventura.. Does it rate the HP and give the carb number anywhere?

I didn't think to look at the chassis manual, I'll have to check that tonight.

HP is rated at 287 @ 4400 RPM's..Torque is 417@ 2400 for the 61-10 engine. the 4 speed 315 HM is rated at 303 HP.
Your cam should be a 519640.
The 303 HP eng uses cam 529472.

good luck with it..Has always been my favorite. I had one from 64-66, but my wife had to sell it because something expensive broke while I was in Nam.. We finally found a 61 Cat Conv 3 years ago..

This is from H/O Racing catalog

I appreciate all the research.. I have Pete McCarthy's book but the B1 isn't in there.
Looks like there's still conflicting info about this B1 engine..

From that chart it appears the B1 is rated the same HP as the 2 barrel engine which it 283?
There's no 287 HP until '62 and it's a different code.

There's no tag on my carb but it looks like the same one that's on my '63 BV..
So it must be the cam/slimjim application that makes it 283 HP, coincidentally the same as the 2 barrel?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&d=1367275514

I think your 61 Ventura was originally a 2-barrel engine & someone put a 4-barrel intake & carb on it. Thats what I did to my 59 cat A code, 280 HP 2-barrel.

I'd trade my 61-tempest wagon for that. hint hint.

GT.

I just looked at my factory shop manual, and there it is - B1 code, 4 barrel carb.

Go to page 6-0, Fig. 6-1 in the 1961 Factory Chassis Manual, Then go to page 6-55 to find the HP, your engine being a 61-10 HM 3 speed with a 4 bbl carb. the manual can be found and copied online here.
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...69990444536748

The big catch is you have to register and join,,,for free..

The 1962 287 HP might be a misprint? It appears most engines were raised 3 HP from 1960 - 1962

OK so in the 1961 shop manual the B1 has a 4 barrel.. does it say what HP, cam and Carb number?

Just bought a '61 shop manual.. Figure if I'm gonna own and work on it I better have one.. Hydramatic manual is the same for '63 right? I already have one of those..

Hydramatic manual should have info on both HM transmissions. There may be minor changes between 61 and 63 but may no cause you any trouble unless you are into a full tear down and rebuild

OK that's good to know..

Still have not gotten the engine to wink.. been soaking each cylinder with PB blaster and tapped all the valves lightly w/a hammer.. 2 were stuck but are bouncing now.. I'm thinking those are the two cylinders that are probably stuck.. Anybody out there an expert on unsticking a 389? I'm open to suggestions.. Just bent my breaker bar and 3 pipes.. Not budging yet..

Something my brother-in-law told me a long time ago
that works pretty good is coleman lanter fuel and
trans mission fluid mix in the cylinders. It worked for
me a long time ago on a 400 that was set up.
I filled the cylinders pretty deep and let it soak.
The lanter fuel will seep in and the tranny fluid
will lubricate at the same time. Hope it helps.

GT.

Thanks, I think I have both of those items already.. I loaded it up with a whole can of PB Blaster equally dispersed between all 8 cylinder.. If it doesn't spin for me later today I'll try that mix..

try this..

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...tone%2Fatf

Conventional tools weren't working.. Found a 2 1/2 inch thick, 5 foot long solid steel digging bar in the barn and stuff it through the AC pulley and jerked it a few times... Finally got it to wink!!! Put a funnel in each cylinder hole and filled them with oil.. waited 30 minutes.. took me 45 minutes to get one rotation of the crank about 5 degrees at a time.. second rotation took 25 minutes and the third 10 minutes.. Still not completely free spinning but I can rotate it slowly with a socket wrench now.. Should improve a lot while sitting.. I'm sure the cam bearings and contact points where the lifters meet the lobes is dry as a bone.. Any oil that was on them has turned to cake between 1987 and now... Before I proceed I'm going to try to get an oil priming tool as recommended by Mike Nixon.. Gotta drain the old oil and pull the distributor to do it.. backatcha later..

Wow, that's amazing.. Acetone and ATF 50/50 mix.. I'm going to try that later today.. Might get it spinning a bit faster anyway...

I doubt the rings will ever seal again, and a cylinder or two will be junk. Bite the bullet and pull it out..Be cheaper in the long run..

Your probably right.. I'm still going to mess with it some more to see if I can get it running... There's a guy not far from here with a '64 389 2 barrel engine that has 49,000 miles on it.. I may end up putting that in this car.. I could then put in a turbo 400 instead of the slim jim since the '64's are already drilled for a block mounted starter.. we'll see..

OK, the starter was burned out so I installed one from a '63 I scrapped a while back..
Well, I poured oil into each of the 4 holes above the push rods in the head to get some down to the valley where the lifters and cam are.. It did help quite a bit but there's still a lot of resistance. Still need a long bar on the crank to get the engine to spin but it's not totally seized.. This starter (probably even a brand new starter) is not strong enough to spin it completely. Still hangs up 3 times per rotation.. I'm going to try the pre oiling with the drill/rod/oil pump tomorrow. I think I must still have a few dry spots on the cam and cylinder walls...

Go Man Go!!!!!!!!!

GT.

Update: It's getting there.. I still have two hang up spots but I can get it spun through those with a breaker bar and pipe extension... Parts stores around here didn't have the pre oiling tool so I found one online that should be here by Tuesday.. I'm going to leave it alone until then and work on some other things..

Got the oiling tool for less than $20 shipped.. It works great but no change in status.

Pulled off top end, oiled cylinders from the top and worked the crank around and through the rough spots a few dozen times.. still no difference.. there has to be a spun bearing or maybe the rings of one cylnders has expanded from rust while at the top and when brought to the bottom of the stroke are just so tight and bind up?
No matter what I do as far as lube up there is no change.. been trying for hours..
Guess I'll be yanking this on out after all.. Damn..

I can drop another engine in but will hate that it's not the original engine and numbers matching car.. Maybe I should just get over that..

Never did a ring job or rebuilt a bottom end before but I'm considering it now..
What's the hardest part?

Been following your thread. "61 Venturas are the prettiest car ever made IMO, period.

If you have a set of dial calipers measure the diameter of the tops of the cylinders and if they show 4.06 or there about the block is standard bore. You can go .090 on those blocks so if it is standard bore you should be able to rebuild it no problem. Even if water sat in one hole and ruined that hole it could be sleeved and you could still rebuild it.

It isn't hard to rebuild an engine and you've got lots of Pontiac people in your neck of the woods a few I know personally.

Never did a ring job or rebuilt a bottom end before but I'm considering it now..
What's the hardest part?[/QUOTE]

Doing it right..:D