repaint with no clear?
 

Hi, I just spoke to a paint shop today. I told him I dont like the dirty/dusty look of my old paint, and would like a repaint. I dont want it to be a show car finish because it will just be a driver. I just dont want dirty/foggy paint. anyway he told me he can do a paint job (not water based) but without the clear. I know there used to be the 1 part paints that didnt require a clearcoat afterwards, but is there modern paint that doesn't require a clear and can still shine/be sealed?

Sure. Single stage urethane or enamel.

I would look at the difference in price between the single stage paint job and a base coat/clear coat, and then make a decision.

Do you mean there is a big difference, or not so much? Is there a big difference in the shine quality?

I think there is a big difference in the quality of the finished product with the two stage paint job. Not sure what the price difference would be over the single stage, but since the prep work needs to be done either way, whatever the price difference is, you may be glad you paid it when all is said and done.
I would price it both ways. I've seen some nice single stage paint jobs, but I don't think they came out as nice as the base coat/clear coat.

My two cents: if you are going to plunk down the amount of coin a shop charges for a quality paint job it doesn't make sense to cheap out on single stage. Most of the cost is in the prep anyway.

I can't really talk trash about single stage because I've seen a lot of nice single stage jobs, but you'll get more mileage out of a base clear job. Especially if your car lives outside.

if you have a metalic color go with a base/clear
if it is a solid color single stage can be used but will not hold up to the sun as well...but is less work and $ too

Have you tried some good ol' fashioned elbow grease? I've seen some older single stage jobs look pretty good after applying meguiars ultimate compound just by hand. (assuming that is what you have now)

It might not look so hot due to neglect, so worth a little bit of experimentation before you plunk down some serious bucks on a paint job. If you can post pics here, that would help a bunch.

The problem is that pictures don't show the dust/dirt in the paint.

webfoot may be right you will be suprised what a polish will do to old paint
may be worth a try

Darth, I've been reading all of your posts since you first bought
this car and I can tell from what you've said that you bought a car that is a beater
that needs everything with crappy paint to boot and what you really wanted was a nice car,
not a bottomless money pit. My advice to you is to put that sucker back on ebay and try
to get most of your money back, then with an expert who knows what he is looking at
in tow, find a car for sale that you can personally inspect that meets your standards and
purchase it and start enjoying it. The car you bought is a dog with fleas and it's time to have
him put down. If you start attempting to make a nice car out of the one you bought you are going to be so upside down on that car you will never see daylight. There is nothing more
tempting and at the same time heartbreaking as the 12,000 dollar classic car purchase.
The fact of the matter is that for seven thousand more dollars you can usually buy a car that
is twenty times nicer than the twelve thousand dollar car, and to make your twelve thousand dollar car as nice as that 19K car you would have to spend 25K on it unless you do all the work yourself, which you have stated that you don't have the skills to do. I will give you a case in point....For several years now I had been looking to purchase a 1965 Buick Riviera. I looked at hundreds of them on the internet that needed paint, interior,
drivetrain overhauls, front end, glass, trim and other major needs that I could have bought
for 12K to 15K. All these cars needed major work to be a nice car, in most cases needing
a very expensive complete resto. Last month I found a 55,000 mile example that had
never been driven in the rain, never had a door ding, never any rust, absolutely flawless
original interior, runs and drives like a brand new car, Very nice thirty year old repaint over
flawless virgin sheet metal, and I paid 19K for it. I've been driving it since I got it and it
draws a crowd everywhere it goes. A friend of mine without my knowledge bought an internet 69 GTO hardtop that needed paint, interior, weatherstrips, engine overhaul, trans
overhaul, front end overhaul, rust repair, brakes, tires, etc. for 15 K. He now has 40 K in
it and when he saw my Riviera I thought he was going to start crying. Take my advice
and bail out and pull the ripcord. Consider this a learning experience.

Dirt might just be stuck on there. Before I went out and paid for a repaint, I'd wash it real good, then go over it with a clay bar, then try the polishing compound.

If you don't have the time or skills to do a good portion of the work yourself, then maybe you should consider gtohurstjudge's advice.
An added thing to consider with your present car is that while it isn't a GTO, anything you buy for it, or any work you pay to have done, will cost you what it would cost if it were a GTO. Yet it will never be worth near what a real GTO will be worth in the end.
I've had my car for about 16 or 17 years now. It was a good solid complete numbers matching real GTO when I got it with a mediocre re-paint in the wrong color over nice sheet metal.
I drove it home and continued to drive it for a year or two while I gathered my pennies to do it over. I was able to do most of the mechanical stuff myself, and then take everything off of it, gut the complete interior and dash, etc., before sending it out for media blasting followed by new paint in the correct color. Once I got the car home from the body shop via flatbed, I spent several months putting it all back together. I've enjoyed the fruits of my labor for many years now.
If I hadn't been able to do the lion's share of the work myself it would have been a whole other experience.
I have a friend that was looking for a classic car for years. He called on me to go look at cars many times for him over the last dozen or so years, and while some were dogs, others were nice worthwhile project cars for the right person. Since he has no real mechanical skills, or much time to do any of the work, I always advised him against buying the cars we looked at.
But he kept looking at bargain cars because he wanted to feel like he got a deal. He thought he was going to find that classic muscle car with 20,000 miles on it tucked away under glass for decades in some old lady's garage that everyone else in the world missed, and he was going to get it for less than 10 grand.
For years I kept telling him that the best way for a guy like him to get what he wanted would be to buy a finished car, and pay the price. It would be a lot cheaper in the long run.
This past summer he took my advice and picked up a really nicely done 69 4 speed GTO convertible. It's not numbers matching, but it has a correct coded motor, and was really re-done well. It took him many years to see the light and value of buying a finished car, and he is happy he went that way. He paid what I think was a fair price for the car, and was able to get something that he has done nothing but drive and enjoy for the last several months.
He didn't get a bargain, and he didn't steal the car. He laid out a lot more money than he had ever anticipated, but he could get his money back out of it tomorrow if he wanted to.
That's a pretty good deal!
I don't regard my car as an investment. Although I could get more for it than I have invested dollar wise simply because I've had it so long, my intention is to never sell it. That will fall upon my kids if they decide to get rid of it after I'm gone. I also strongly advise the average guy against thinking of classic cars as investments. The guys with the shops you see on TV might make money on the cars they re-do, but I'll bet they don't make a killing on all of them, and they have the shop, equipment, and staff to get the job done.
But while the average guy shouldn't get in to a classic car as an investment, he should at least try to be in a position where he can get back close to the dollar amount he has in to the car if the need to sell it ever arises. Chances of ever getting compensated for the time are slim.
While I'm sure it's nice, I tend to think that you may be hard pressed to fall into that category with your Tempest convertible.
You may want to either just enjoy it the way it is without investing anything in to it, or if you decide to get involved in a re-paint or other large scale expensive projects, you may be better off putting back on EBay.

Repainting with a paint that doesn't require a clear coat will either be lacquer, some type of enamel (with or without a hardener) or a single-stage urethane, this typically being the best for durability of the choices I listed. That being said, none of those will approach BC/CC for durability, and as mentioned above, if you are going to pay for a paint job, there is no sense skimping on the paint since so little of the total cost is the paint itself. If it were me, and I couldn't (or wouldn't) do most of the work myself to get the car to my satisfaction, I would try webfoots advice first, and if not successful, think long and hard about what gtohurstjudge and JVM225 wrote. This can be a tough (read:expensive) hobby if you cant do about 60-75% of the work required on any one car yourself.

I prefer single stage to clear coat 2 stage. It looks correct. My '65 was painted in 1985 in single stage enamel, and still looks good. My '67 was done in single stage in 1993 and still looks good. I had a '66 done in base/clear and the clear started going away after only 10 years. I keep my cars, and paint jobs are spendy. I have YET to see a clear coated car that doesn't start to lose it's clear like dandruff in 1o years or less. Plus, cleared cars are too shiny....the Barrett Jackson 'glazed ham' look. These cars didn't look like this when new, and to me, look wrong when done this way. A single stage enamel job is a durable, viable option if the painter knows how to apply it.

Darth, I think that gtohurstjudge and JVM225 Are telling you the right thing to do with your car, I think you would be much happer with a car that is road ready Just think about it OK. My gto is under a carport it has set outside also, It was painted enamel 27 yrs ago the paint has held up good we did not use flex on the bumper only a few cracks in it.

GTOhurstjudge- Hi, thanks for the write-up. I don't think I said I dont have the skills, but I don't have the knowledge...which is why I will be posting here lots to get the assistance from the more knowledgable. What bugged me about the car was those things that stood out like a sore thumb...like the windowfelts, weatherstripping, some emblems pitted, etc. After a bit of looking around, from what I see all these hideous parts should cost about $800 to buy new. A little bit of coin for a HUGE difference in looks. The smaller mechanical issues, such as low idle, brake lights, etc are something I believe I can work on over the winter with some help from here and some cursing from me. Unless there is a larger engine/transmission problem I don't know of, I am feeling somewhat positive with this knowing that some of my problems are common and not end of the world. What is the saving grace with this car is the interior is very nice, and the body is solid (even after being looked at by a few paint shops who were thoroughly impressed with it)

I have learned that buying cars sight unseen isn't always a flawless thing. When I bought my Viper off ebay 2 years ago, the paint was nice and shiney, body was solid, and everything looked amazing. I drove it for about a week and it started to shoot out anti-freeze. The timing cover gasket had rotted out and that was a somewhat expensive fix for me (I am always wanting to do my own repairs if I can, but tearing apart a motor - especially of that value- is something I don't feel confident in doing)

I am not expecting a show car that looks like it came right off the show room floor, but a fun convertible that me and my family can go cruising in. Something the Viper can't offer

What a weird thread... A guy asks a simple but complex question and receives some very valid information in regards to his question along with some offered advice that can be hard to give and sometimes even harder to receive. The original poster accepts all of it without seeming to be offended and the thread continues without hard feelings or the too often seen "internet tough guy showdown". Pretty cool!
Whereas I don't know a thing about paint I can add that my first car was a 75 nova that had obviously been painted outside. At 18 and not having nearly the coin to drop on a paintjob I began the tedious process of rubbing it out with compound by hand. It was horribly exhausting but I'll be darned if it didn't make a world of difference. I doubt it will be what you want to wind up with for paint in the end but it will deffinitly surprise you. Advice I can give on the repaint, whether it be single stage, or bc/cc is due your due diligence in regards to the shop you choose. The horror stories I have read and experienced 1st hand about shops that keep your car forever or botch the paint in a hurry has scared me into painting my own car. I have most of the metal work done now but it will still be next spring before its ready for paint. So I study these kinds of threads as often as possible. Whatever you choose to do, good luck!

Very glad that I insisted my Starlight Black got no clear-coat. All the benefits, not aware of any drawback.

Here's a few pros and cons to single-stage vs BC/CC: (Not all of these factors will come into play for a classic car refinish due to the fact that most are not subjected to snow, salted roads, or even much rain, and are garage kept)
BB/CC: Clear will allow any UV inhibitors used to function 100% as they wont be "buried " in the film by color pigment.
Clears allow a higher degree of protection to the pigment in the color coat as the pigment is isolated from surface exposure by the clear. Because of this, single-stage paints may appear more intense color-wise, because the pigment is not covered by a coat of clear.
The failure mode from UV breakdown usually results in peeling of the clearcoat in a BC/CC system. A single-stage coating failure may result in pigment color fading, "bronzing", loss of gloss, etc. Because of the ability of the UV source (the sun) to "see" the UV inhibitors much better (as mentioned above) BC/CC will last much longer and lose much less gloss when compared to single-stage in a side-by-side comparison. This assumes that both systems have an equal amount and the same type of UV inhibitors when formulated. UV inhibitors are very expensive are are one reason why clears may be priced differently.
All pigments have an oil absorption rate and as pigment levels are increased in a paint, the gloss of the dried film tends to go down. This is one reason why primers are lower in gloss, a typically higher level of pigmentation. It is, as a general rule, easier to achieve greater adhesion with a pigmented coating than a clear, as pigments help to bite into the metal profile sufrace. This is one reason why it is important to observe a paint manufacturer's recommended recoat window between base and clear application, clear adhesion to a base color could be less than optimal if this recoat window is not adhered to. Also, because pigment has an oil demand, pigmented coating may have a lower "depth-of -image" (DOI) gloss when compared to a clear. This lower gloss may not be apparent when looked at at a 60-90 degreee angle, but becomes more visible when measured at 20* angle light source, or when the human eye looks down a painted panel at a sharp angle rather than "head-on".
When a single-stage solid colr paint gets scratched, the color expoased below is essentially the same color, provided the scratch is not deep enough to go to the primer, or worse, bare metal. When a BC/CC is scratched, the scratch may show up as a different color, therefore becoming more obvious.

To sum up, single-stage paints must do more things because of their nature: UV protection, scratch and mar resistance, isolation and protection of the pigmentation,etc.
BC/CC bases have only one function: to provide color so that a clear can be applied for protection. In addition, any additives used to disperse the pigments when the color coat is manufactured (wetting agents, surfactants,etc) are isolated from the surface. This can be very important as some of these additives, while necessary for pigment dispersion, may have other detrimental effects. The clear can now concentrate on scratch and mar resistance, UV protection,protection from environmental exposure, etc.
For a classic car that is garage-kept for most of its time, hardle ever sees rain, and has a UV exposure of only hours (or days in a northern climate) will all the UV inhibitors in the film ever expire? (They are sacrificial) The chances are probably not in our lifetime. A car that is kept outside in a southern climate is a different story. Any car that I owned that is farther south than say Oklahoma, garage kept or not, I would put the best clear on it I could. Hope that helps.

Excellent info, thanks.

I plan to have my 68 done in a single stage, OEM quality (or lack thereof) only. I want the car to be as close as possible to what it looked like when I bought it in 1976 ..sans any fading and damage of course :).

Is it still possible to find the necessary single stage paints in the proper color? I've painted the car twice before in my life, not well either time, but I'm older and more patient and have better toys now. I trimmed out the car in the original Vedora green some twenty years ago, some kind of simple, single stage paint, (Acrylic enamel?) can't remember if it had hardener or not. That trim paint, after sitting outside under a cover for 15 years, and in a garage for five years, is still as shiny as the day I painted it. Went on real nice too. Wonder if a similar paint can still be purchased?
JohnnyB

I bought some single stage paint in Meridian Turquoise just a couple of years ago. I painted my jambs with it...Looked good to me but in the end, it was a waste of time/$$$ as my painter is using bccc and will strip or paint over all I did...If he ever gets to it...lol

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...O/DSCF0370.jpg

So let's discuss Maaco. I know they have a bad rep, but if i'm not wanting a show car and wanting a more tolerable paint job...are they who to go to? I understand their paint is great, but their paint skills are where they sometimes get their bed rep from

A couple of years back a guy I know brought a car to them for paint. It was a 69 Chevelle that he picked up to fix up and sell. The car came out pretty nice.
But I will say that it was a straight car to begin with, he prepped it himself, took everything off, and brought it to them to spray in their booth, and the paint was a non-metallic red.
He told me the guys that painted the car were in to muscle cars, so they may have taken their time with it and done a better than typical job.
He sold the car shortly afterward so I don't know how it held up, but it looked a lot better than I expected it to when I saw it right after it was finished.
There is definitely something to be said for proper prep. You'd think their paintwork would be decent because of how much of it they do, but I imagine because of the prices they charge and the rapid turnover, they may not normally spend a lot of time on prep.

What I've heard about Maaco is that first, you have to make sure the bodywork is right and second, you have to choose the right shop. One Maaco is in no way equal to all others. Each shop is it's own entity.

okay so a while ago I put an ad up on kijiji (Canadian-esque Craigslist) about wanting a paint job. Yesterday an auto body teacher came over and looked at the car. He offered that his class can paint it at cost, base-coat clear coat any color I want. I figured take the offer while it's there so I said sure. This is under his supervision and they will do any body work I want as well (spoiler is wavey so it will be fixed and installed too)

Anyway, now down to color. I am wanting a blue I think. Im not going to lie I'd like something similar to Viper blue, but without the flakes and pearl color...but a similar color to it. I looked online at some GTO's with the liberty blue and warwick blue. The thing is I dont know what they look like in real life, and they seem to look different depending on the site.

For instance this link makes the warwick to look more baby blue and the liberty blue to look more navy blue: http://ultimategto.com/69colors.htm

But then go here and this one is warwick blue but it does look darker than the link above. Is this video a more correct look of it? http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CC0Q9QEwAQ

and is this a correct look of liberty blue? http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9383/mkxb.jpg

These cars were not originally clear coated. A nice enamel or urethane job looks appropriate. Basecoat/clearcoat jobs are too shiny: the Barrett Jackson/Glazed Ham look. A lot of folks like the super shiny look. I don't care for it. Both of mine wear single stage paint jobs, the one on my '65 is 29 years old and holding up, and the one on my '67 is 21 years old and still looking good. Try that with a two stage paint job. I keep my cars, and repainting every 10 years because the clear coat is peeling off is not an option for me.

I agree with you...but, if you're getting a pro to paint it, very few of them want to do anything but base coat clear coat any more.
There was an article in HPP a few years ago with many color photos from the Pontiac assembly line. The paint had an almost satin sheen to it back then and it shows very well in the pics. I'll try to find it.
In fact, the '66 in my avatar is from the article. Too small to see here though.

ya, both single stage and bc/cc are an option here. I think I am leaning to Liberty blue...or just go viper blue and be done with it

Liberty is a great color...but nothing wrong with the modern colors either.

True...its just what i can tell from pictures is that it is a blue thats my style. Then again so is viper blue. I found a viper blue gto on google but it has flames so its hard to get a good look at what the blue looks like because the flames take away from it. :) im not going to lie ive never seen liberty blue in my life so i am going by pictures only.

I know it differs by computer screens but does anyone know of a good auto paint sites with the colors\codes so i can get an idea

Liberty Blue is one of my all time favorite colors. It was what was on my 69 that I had back in the 70's.
It's a dark blue, but not a midnight. It was on lots of GM cars in 69 and 70. Different nameplates called it different things, but it was the exact same color.
A friend of mine has a 22k mile 70 Coupe De Ville in that color with white top and interior. The car is amazing looking.

I have a 67 GTO painted in 1992 Plum Mist base coat clear coat. Still holds it's own at shows today. No problems with clearcoat peeling etc.... Much easier to repair/touch up.

Mark C

this is all good to know. The thing is I have a convertible with a white roof and the interior is parchment/black so I think blue would go good with it. Originally I had silver in mind, but I dont think that would go good with parchment. who knows though. I guess I have a while to decide, so I should focus on getting other issues solved first :)

Liberty is an excellent color to compliment the parchment interior. Not many look better.

Here's a buds 69 GTO, code 51, painted with single stage.
He bought it this way.
It had a scratch in the L quarter when he bought it.
We had to end up spotting it in with base/clear.
That is one problem with going with a single stage, makes it very difficult if you have a spot that needs repainting
These cars originally where painted in single stage, but GM shot them with Lacquer.
They could be polished to a high shine and hence no orange peel to speak of.

With a single stage urethane what you see when it comes out of the booth is what you end up with.
There are very few painters around any more that know how to shoot it.

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps43a70f22.jpg

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps0b6ee28e.jpg

Bill

Base/clear technology and formulation is miles ahead of old technology laquer and enamel paint. Yes, it will be somewhat over restored. Buff it less then. Some restorers have techniques which can make the finish less super shined. However, paint is one area where we generally (in the hobby) want to over-restore. Factory painjobs circa 1969 STUNK.

In some places laquer paint is taboo due to nutty environmental laws too. If you insist, they still make the enamels from the 80s we all had, like Imron etc. I would not use these products. I would only do base/clear. ESPECIALLY on this dark color.

Maaco
 

Both these cars were painted at my local Maaco. You need to talk to the manager prior to them working on it so everyone knows what is expected from the job. Doing your own prep work saves a ton of $$$.

http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/k...c/DSC04185.jpg
http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/k...d/DSC03516.jpg

Guys, I'm needing some opinions on paint color. I want to change it from this dusty mataor red as I've mentioned. The guy is wanting some input on colors I am interested in. Red is not an option as I already have a red sports car and want to change it up. I don't want to do the carousel red either. The interior is parchment and black, with a white soft-top so I am thinking maybe a paint color with a pearl in it. It can be a factory color or not.

I am leaning towards viper blue. I also like silver, but I don't think it will go good with the parchment. I am also liking a brighter green, or is that a no go area with the GTO? Similar to this greenhttp://www.diecastmodelswholesale.co...M960%20(1).jpg

I like Liberty Blue

I like that color of green. One thing's for sure, if you paint it an "updated" color, you will get feedback, both pro and con, since newer colors are easily discernable from 40 year-old metallics. The Viper blue color really stands out, too. And I thought long and hard about Corvette Atomic Orange before I decided on a tri-coat red. Mine is also a 69 vert with parchment interior. But to my way of thinking (I know there are many here who will disagree with this) why not utilize newer technology in the form of pigments? ( Micas, pearls, much brighter metallics, etc) Newer colors are much more vibrant that the colors that were possible 40 years ago. What's the difference between using that technology vs any other newer technology you would use in a classic car? I could never figure out guys that show up at car shows, riding on radials, updated brakes, synthetic oil, much improved electrical systems, stainless exhaust, and they paint their car using base/clear (updated paint technology) and then try to acheive some 40 year old dirty, milky or metallic color that was made with pigments that aren't even available anymore, cause they want some "originality". To each his own, I guess...

I do agree. There is a time and a place for purist, but in general I think if it improves the look of the car. If the car is rare/valuable keep it stock. If it's not valuable make it different and fun as long as it's tasteful

And even that is subjective. You like that Green? Go for it! No matter how you paint it, some will like it and some, not so much...

by tasteful i meant no spinners, black lights underneath, etc. That is pure cheese customizing...aka not tasteful

Just wanted to jump in because I painted my first complete car with single stage and love it. I have done single panels with bc/cc but never had to blend or repair chips or scratches with bc/cc. I dont have a lot of experience with paint in general.

After picking the people's brains at my local paint sop I chose single stage because they convinced me that repair work is easier afterward.I have fixed some imperfections and some chips with the single stage and found it very easy. Also I applied it heavy and wet sanded the orange peel out later and it turned out really nice. It is very shiny.

1st pic is the car, 2nd pic looking at reflection of the red car prior to wet sanding, 3rd pic is same as 2nd pic but after wet sanding and buffing.

Well it goes into the paint shop next Monday. Still unsure if I am doing liberty blue or viper blue. Either way I have a tight schedule to finish the intake/carb prior to Monday.

Jeff, I did what you did 27 years ago to mine, It could use a compound and a good wax.

One of my cars I shot 41 years ago. Two years ago I started getting oxidation that I couldn't get out even with my old standby Imperial Hand Glaze. I called Meguires for advise and they recommended M-80. That worked great for the two years and last month it gave up the ghost. So for the first time since the paint was put on I wet sanded the car and now it's back looking good.
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photog...8_edited_1.jpg
I'm the original owner of this 76 Olds, the paint is all original factory lacquer. It seems pretty shiny to me for original paint or even new.
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photog...s/img_0124.jpg


The problem with base/clear systems is once the clear goes it's all over. I remember seeing a 1960 Bonneville in Smoke signals that was oxidized and the owner brought that original paint back to near new. I'm the original owner of a 69 H-0 LeMans and I shot that car for it's only respray in 92. The car has never been waxed and it gets a going over of Imperial Hand Glaze about four times a year. Paint is holding up good considering it's PPG Lacquer. Take a look at the link;
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photog...s/p1020752.jpg
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photog...s/p1020753.jpg

Guys, I know each computer monitor shows colors slightly different, but can anyone find a picture that looks most like a liberty blue GTO to them. I google and see so many pictures with different shades of blue that look very dark and navy blue all the way to a blue that looks like the 69 mustang boss came in. Locally all I have seen are carousel red GTOs

Very nice...ya you guys are proving a good point for single stage. I have to be decided by next week and I don't even have the color 100% chosen yet